Karm? Destiny? Kismet?

[double_edge]

Forgive me if im repeating things that have already been discussed..

I've been having some interesting discussions with some Gurmukhs recently.. well they were more like debates really, about the concepts of Karm, Fate/Destiny/Kismet etc, Vs the concept of making your own destiny, ie life being what you make it.

On One hand we're told to accept and infact embrace our circumstances (be they financial, to do with status, to do with external circumstances such as our families etc) and we're told not to fight "nature" because Mahraj put us here and we are reaping the fruits of our own past deeds. This ties into your Destiny/Kismet being pre-ordained and all you can do about it is Pray that Mahraj will be merciful and minimise your sentence/suffering.

(and this, so far as i can reason, validates things like palmistry and astrology, clairvoyants etc etc as they can tell what is pre-ordained)

On the other hand, the very same people have been saying that life is what you make it.. you make your own destiny. I.E, be proactive, be optimistic, be positive etc etc. You can acheive anything if you put your mind to it etc etc. (effectively saying there is no fate)

Now maybe im just nitpicking but the two concepts seem mutually exclusive to me, and the people coming up with this stuff ended up tripping over themselves and not really being able to pick which side of the fence they wanted to stand on.

Then they start talking abt exceptions to rules and divine intervention etc which frankly just does my head in. Im not a fan of moving goal posts lol..

So what do you guys make of all this? are the people telling me this stuff as confused as i am? lol

[desi baba]

my friend it is a very deep subject one that i have spent much time thinking about

as your name i think this most definately a double edge its about finding the balance the middle of the sword

[Nectar]

I feel from all I know that its something like preordained BUT ardaas has a lot power , good karmas have a lot of power....so if a person was destined to be Hung to death .....all he gets is a pin prick....Sulli da kanda ban na....Naam Simran makes us postive thinkers...makes us have Chardi Kala...so if they say destiny is in ur hands....yeah to some extent...u got the dimaag and awareness that by Naam Simran u can change the bad destiny BUT the will to do it is where problem is ...we may get lazy n irregular and there we require Kirpa frm Wahe....this where ardaas comes handy :mrgreen:

pul chuk maaf...

[Pheena]

Have fun with this one... Hope you got the time to read it. Alot of info on Karma

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/gdpman...rma/karm-gp.htm

[Sukhi]

wow. tha's a whole lot to read. no wonder Pheena's eyes keep twitching all the time. (sorry Pheena, i just couldn't help myself.)

anywho. i'll finish reading the article in a bit.

but here's my opinion for the moment. ahahaa... let's see if this is slightly more understandable than other posts i've made recently... lol...

okay, so on the one hand, you've got destiny and on the other you've got karma and with it freedom of choice. at least tha's what this boils down to in my eyes. freedom of choice versus destiny.

when we're born we have a destiny. but this destiny stems from our Karms. what we did in our past lives affects what happens in our present life. but at the same time, we have freedom of choice. and the choices we make affect our karmic destiny.

at the same time, you've got Hukam. everything falls under this. ur karmic destiny and the choices u make when you make them.

cappeesh?

[double_edge]

Sukhi, if what ur saying is correct.. then the ideas of Karam, Destiny and Choice are all redundant because Hukam overrides all of the above and we're just a bunch of puppets on strings playing to whatever script the almighty has written for us..

And if thats the case.. then i really doesnt matter what we do because our very thoughts and the resulting actions would all be the result of Hukam.. So it cant be that (at least not totally), because we're told "Karmi Aapo Aapni"..

Before you all get really annoyed with me, i'll tell you that the reason i raise these points is because recently i read some really interesting books on motivation and realising ones potential. The concepts seem really sound but its all based on the concept that you can be the archeitect of your own destiny and theoretically acheive anything.

BUT, if our destinies are pre-written, and theres nothing we can do about them, then that would render all this "Think Positve" stuff redundant cos ish is gonna happen regardless of whether we're positive or not...

am i still making sense? lol

[Pheena]

yes, you are making sense, and the question has been asked by every seeker at one point in their journey.

The answer is both. Your destiny is prewritten because of your previous Karms. They cannot be erased, unless with Grace from Guru/God. And if God so chooses he can erase your past karma. Karma is a part of his Hukam. We cannot go above his hukam as a fish cannot leave the ocean. It can swim anywhere do what it wants, but cannot leave the ocean.

There is also a level of understanding. At our current position, we can only grasp the act of karma and understand that our past karms create such circumstances. That is the thikning linear with time. There also comes a time when you go beyond time and then the past, present and future are no longer linear but become ones reality. Hence all is known at that point, the past, present, and the future. they become one. That is the State of God. He is beyond time, he does not see as we do. But from Beyond Time.

God knows every choice we have, but the choice we make is up to us. He sees all the alternatives, and all the effects of our choice. Can a mother not know what her child is thinking or know the what type of decisions we are going to make. Then the Divine Mother should have no problem knowing our choices and what decision we are to make.

The quote goes, "God Helps those Who Help Themselves" You are responsible for your actions/in-actions and those actions/in-actions write your destiny. Your Past creates your Present, and your Present creates your Future.

read the link i provided, you will get many answers.

[Sukhi]

Pheena knows what i'm talkin bout. woo hoo! so i'm not completely insane! yessssss....

moving on.

someone once told me that Gurbani is for people at ALL levels of spiritual achievement, from beginners (ie yours truly) and Mahapurakhs and Sants. so the messages that are in there are for everyone. but not everyone is meant to understand all the messages at the beginning of their quest.

how does this lil tidbit relate to this discussion?

well, we're all wondering whether we have freedom of choice or we're puppets. well, what if i told you that for people like me who are beginners it would suffice to accept the idea that we're making our own choices? if beginners didn't look at it that way, then we'd probably never make the effort to do Simran or anything because we'd expect God to handle it all and take us from point a to Sach Khand.

am i makin sense?

[double_edge]

Hmmm..

i guess there isnt really a conclusive answer. sounds like its one of those "wait and see" type situations.. or the ever infuriating "You'll understand one day". I mean, there was alot of interesting theories in the link that Pheena provided (thanks very much for that by the way!), but once again, it sounded alot like theory.. one persons opinions from what they understand from a number of sources.

I guess the kind of answer i was hoping for was to the effect of "Bani says this:..... therefore the answer is:....." But i guess maybe we're not gonna find anything like that coz again, there will be other quotes and interpretation that will just compound my confusion.

To be honest im starting to tend towards the prewritten destiny theory at the moment. Because it seems that sometimes, no matter how hard you try to avoid a given outcome, it just seems that ur inexplicably dragged towards it no matter how hard you try or how many different ways you come up with to avert it.

Often it seems that we really have very little control over the direction life takes. Well, if anyone comes up with any other theories, please post them! im here to learn

[Sukhi]

you know, double-edge, i grew up believing (and to an extent, i still do believe this) that we may not be able to control the world, but by controlling our reactions to it, we control our own destiny.

there's no formulaic answer because Gurbani is contradictory and very deeply metaphorical in the sense that it tells us that we are in control of our destiny but at the same time credits God with controlling everyone's actions.

i think the point is not to focus so much on who's controlling whom, but rather how you're reacting to your situation. it's not necessarily about ending up where God wants you to end up, or ending up wherever your actions lead you to be, but rather a mix of the two.

something else to think about is if we reduce destiny to being either one wrought of our own free will or that of God's will, then either way, we limit the possibilities of things that can happen. to a certain extent, as un-understandable as it is, it seems to me that it's a combination of free will and God's Will that really makes life possible.

but that's just my opinion....