marriage and sex

[sexy_singh]

If you think you are easily offended by discussion on sex its probably a good idea to hit back now.. thankyou!

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Ok, this question might have been asked before - but i want some fresh perspectives - because i think most of us here are constantly revising our views on sex and marriage. I know i am, at least.

I'll start by saying im a male and hope to one day get married. I've learned enough from life to know its unlikely i'll end up with a soulmate who'll be the perfect person for me and so on. This isnt a discussion on soulmates. I used to think i'd fall in love with a girl and live the rest of my life with her. Experience however has taught me that love is vague thing that at best describes something honest and genuine and at worst, a primal expression of needing to be loved.

Now i know what true love is and stuff so we dont need that rehashed here. Its where you love someone genuinely and honestly - without deluding yourself too much. Its probably just putting up with someone whos a great friend and appreciating them being in your life and a feeling which is poweful but poorly understood.

Instead i'll go for an arranged marriage. Why? Because my criteria suits the arranged marriage process. I want someone from a good home, of a similar cultural background - so our families get along without too much trouble - this probably includes caste and stuff. She should be from a wicked family and her qualities should be clear and real. I want someone tolerant, respectful, considerate and with a beautiful personality. She should be attractive as well and in my league - cuz ppl tend to talk and gossip if you are mismatched. And most of all, she should fit in into my family - thats extremely important to me.

Now granted that this is difficult. But it is probably possible. Its not about finding that needle in a haystack like with the love nonsense. Im sure there are enough girls who'd fit my criteria, if not here then in another country or place.

But what bugs me is what if shes a great wife, and im a decent husband but we have a horrible sexlife. I should say i dont expect my wife to be my whore or f**kbuddy. Shes my wife. My queen. Im gonna treat her well - i dont want to go into marriage expecting much fireworks.

So what does that mean to me as a "sikh" - im told i cant sleep with other women outside of marriage. That is a bad thing im told. In fact i even believe that stuff cuz its been conditioned into me. However when i think about it, whats so wrong with having sex with someone else - who suffers?

my female friend and conscience tells me that i'll be doing my wife wrong. But i dont understand why. I just wanna make love - thats a human thing - am i freak for wanting to do so? Its not like im talking about having sex all the time. Instead i want to know that when i want it, i can. If i meet a beautiful girl whos fond of me - why shouldnt we have a relationship of love/sex? I'll never replace my wife with my crush. She'll always be my wife. The crush serves a temporary purpose. THat doesnt mean i'll treat her badly - i wont, its just she'll have to know i love my wife and cannot replace her.

Please not that i dont think i'll ever be in a position not to want sex - im not some magician. Yes ideally it would be nice to be able to control my mind. But its not gonna happen. not to me anyway. so its futile to talk to me about kam and stuff - im more likely to be lustful if i repress my thoughts than if i just go ahead and do it.

I wanna fall in love. I wanna do all those things. But why is it so wrong? What do others think - im curious..

[Pheena]

It is "Your" desire to persue a better sexual relation with someone other than your wife for the simple purpose of fullfilling your sexual need. What one cannot find at home, one seeks at anothers house. If she is your queen, then be satisfied with what she gives you. What if you do no satisfy her, then would it be ok for her to seek another man to take care of her needs? If she cannot satisfy you sexually, then seek a solution other than another woman for you sexual desire. The problem is not her, it is you. Your expectation of her is so high that she might not ever be able to satisfy them. As Long as you expect something from other, you will find your self always being disappointed.

What is the Purpose of a Wife to you?

[sexy_singh]

You are quite correct pheena in saying society has deemed it so. However, that also doesnt make it right or wrong. Now say if i was a strong capable individual who could do my own thing despite of what people think - would i be doing wrong?

I disagree that one should be content with what you have. If we didnt strive for improvement there'd be no progress. Greed drives the globe and gives us all the comforts we enjoy today. Similarly, why should i settle for not falling in love and things. I go to a party and see a beautiful girl dancing away - im drawn into her .. maybe we i begin to fall in love with her .. perhaps this will lead to making love. The potential for that to happen makes life worth living to me.

If she cant cook, well i could settle for eating poor food or i could cook myself or like you said get a cook. If she cant give me children well then im screwed because thats one of the things i expect from my wife. Honestly, i dont knjow how i'd deal with that.

Yes its my desire to have have a lover .. i dont wish to turn my wife into such a thing because i think lovers expire and it would be tragic if that happened to me and my wife. So i propose that that our marriage will never involve that sort of stuff .. since we were never in love we cannot fall OUT of love.

I dont think my expectation is all that high. OK, maybe it is and im being overdemanding. But like i mentioned before she should be the traditional panjabi wife. I dont think the stuff im looking for is setting the bar too high. Instead they are common sense things. I have expectations .. im sure she does too. Compromising is probably something that'll be needed .. i agree.

In the end this is more an exercise is understanding my morality and that of others than a desire to have a mistress on the side.

[Pheena]

Doh, sorry i editied my post right before you posted yours.

I will reply in due time i need time to contemplate on your post.

[Orchids]

hello....

it is about moral values.. i dont even want to kiss a girl before marriage...

you would be hurting ur wife if u go behind her back... i dont know how any1 can deal with their conscience if they did acts like that... hmm what u think is acceptable.. may not be acceptable to other people...doesnt mean ur wrong...that may be ur way of dealing with things but i wouldnt do it... think about it carefully... u will be hurting ur wifes feelings... the desire for u 2 have sex would be filling ur desire... let me ask u... how much is enough? never is enough... the human is the hardest life form...u have various emotions....dont get sp caught up in the world that u lose ur ability to know whats right... also the sri guru granth sahib ji says along the lines of

your eyes should not see the girl other then ur wife

i will find exact quote later

sorry if i sound a bit dictating...

[Orchids]

arrange marriage work in the process of u seeing the girl before u get married...in the old days the family would set u up with some random person thinking u would be compaitable with them....upon seeing that person u will see if they suit u in all ways........

[Sukhi]

i'm sorry... are you asking us to justify or demean your desire to cheat on your wife?...

you want your wife to be your queen, but not your lover cuz lovers expire. it's sad that you see it that way. i wonder how you would feel if your wife felt the same for you.

in terms of sexual satisfaction after marriage, lemme just tell you now so that you have no misconceptions:

it takes time to get the fireworks going if you're both new at it.

i'll let Pheena handle the rest.

[Pheena]

You are quite correct pheena in saying society has deemed it so. However, that also doesnt make it right or wrong. Now say if i was a strong capable individual who could do my own thing despite of what people think - would i be doing wrong?

Ofcourse not, Soceity is not always correct, in my understanding to be functional in Soceity one should observe the reasons behind the barriers put forth by the norm of soceity. Why are we not all permiscious? Why doesn't anyone just have sex with everyone? Soceity has already passed thru this phase during the Anciety Rome Era and the 1920-30s in the western world, where the high class parties were nothing more than a big orgy. Freedom to express your desire fully in soceity is deemed wrong for a reason. Where we are no longer in control of our desire, then soceity becomes forced to negate those behaviours. Where our desires are let loose like wild horses, nothing to controll them, nothing good can come out of it, unless one awakens and realizes thru experience the misery and the pain it has cause not only itself but to other.

But even that does not happen everyone, people keep on trying to fill their desires, but to no avail are they fullfilled. Very few realize thru the experience of trying to fullfill their desire of their futile attempts. Then one awakens and seeks out that which WILL fulfill their desires to not desire again.

I disagree that one should be content with what you have. If we didnt strive for improvement there'd be no progress. Greed drives the globe and gives us all the comforts we enjoy today. Similarly, why should i settle for not falling in love and things. I go to a party and see a beautiful girl dancing away - im drawn into her .. maybe we i begin to fall in love with her .. perhaps this will lead to making love. The potential for that to happen makes life worth living to me.

You cannot compare the neccesity of life with our desires. You cannot compare the need to have a 'better and more reliable' car to get to work with your desire to have better sex. A better Car is a Necesary because one has to get to work to feed his/her family and kids. But what you are feeding with having better sex? Nothing but your desire. They are not in the same category. We put what is important in our life ahead as our needs. If sex is important in your life, then surely that is what you will persure more than say a Respectfull, Loving, Caring wife. I am not saying that is so with you, but the important things do take priority. If your wife is good in bed, but she is not a loving to your parents then what? Is your desire worth the discomfort of your parents? We place our personal desire infront of the important things.

Panch Pardhan, The 5 Sense are dominant, they are Pardhan in our lives. Not what we are here for, but we put our sense ahead of our what we really need.

There are tribes in the Rain Forest living in this world just as peacefully as those living in Penthouses on the 50th floor of a building. A Man living in a Hut is probably more Comfortable than a Man living in a 5 Bedroom house where he has to worry about his rent, insurence, bill...etc. It is a matter of perception and the desire one seek. If one has the desire for a Tractor when he has a bull which given him necessary comfort of from going from one place to other, then that tractor will become a burdon.

If she cant cook, well i could settle for eating poor food or i could cook myself or like you said get a cook. If she cant give me children well then im screwed because thats one of the things i expect from my wife. Honestly, i dont knjow how i'd deal with that.

Yes its my desire to have have a lover .. i dont wish to turn my wife into such a thing because i think lovers expire and it would be tragic if that happened to me and my wife. So i propose that that our marriage will never involve that sort of stuff .. since we were never in love we cannot fall OUT of love.

If you can compromise your sense of Taste with eating poor food then why not your desire to have sex, your sense of touch? Why is this desire so more desirable than the Food of nourishment for your body? What nourishment does having sex provide? Only the Satisfaction of the Orgasm, and then what, the next day it is there again? So the question is did you Satisfy your desire? If not do you think one more time it will be satisfied? or perhaps 2 or 3 or 10 more times? Then the need to satisfy becomes more and more and one become addicted to it. The same feeling of Orgasm one strives for is never attained for more than few hours because you are dependent on the body to provide your mind the sensation. The body needs rest and then again the mind pushes your body to further persure this need. You simply carry along with this desire being controlled by the slave. The Master who reside in this body has become the slave of a mere Sense.

I dont think my expectation is all that high. OK, maybe it is and im being overdemanding. But like i mentioned before she should be the traditional panjabi wife. I dont think the stuff im looking for is setting the bar too high. Instead they are common sense things. I have expectations .. im sure she does too. Compromising is probably something that'll be needed .. i agree.

In the end this is more an exercise is understanding my morality and that of others than a desire to have a mistress on the side.

Don't expect anything, as long as you expect something from other you will keep on being disappointed. Dont even expect Love from others but give without expectation, God gives us the world without expecting anything in return, he does not seek his worship from us in return, we are free to give and only in Freedom is Love born. The day that expectation is not received, that is the day one feels hurt, lost, angry because that expected love was not given to you. Yet the individual who you expected from is their own person, self-ego. They are free to do what they wish, if they are loving you one day, accept it, if the next day they turn the other direction, give them a Fare-well. Be Self-Sustaining. Find the source of your Anand within you, do not be dependent upon others for comfort.

[Nectar]

My parents have been married 24 years and what I see in them is...they may not have been compatible but....Compromise,tolerance,respect,mutual understanding,patience is the the key...this is what I have learnt from them and I guess that holds true for most couples of the previous generation.One has to go out of the way when it comes to life partner...

Come on see him/her as a another human being who has united with you...who has given his/her entire life for you....his/her life is not sooo cheap.

Its a shame that a holy bondage of marriage is taken so lightly and casually...and then people have solution for....doesn't work out...divorce...what the heck....is it a joke...Dang ...its so difficult to make such holy relationships and people take them so casually...its utter selfishness and self-centredness...nothing else...Valuing the other half's life is very important...put urself in their shoes...and imagine how wud u feel..if they did the same cruel things 2 u

[palm_w1]

sounds like what your describing is hedonism. i think it is a valid question to ask how you would feel if your wife jumped into bed with someone else and fell in love with them and with other guys if you couldn't satisfy her?

also do you think you should tell your wife of the way you feel about the subject before you marry her?

[sexy_singh]

First of all i dont like the implication that im someone on a sex-crazed trip who cares only for sex and pleasure and nothing else. I think its unfair to say that about someone just because they admit to wanting a lover.

Even just thinking about what i just wrote makes me feel uneasy because i used the words 'want' and 'lover' and in this company (of you ppl and myself) - thats viewed suspiciously as if its evidence of someone who isnt good enough.

sukhi please note that i said i'd try NOT to see my wife as a lover - not in those terms because i think if i allow myself to get into that game, there will come a time when the buzzer sounds and we arent in love anymore, and then we'll be truly miserable. That isnt because we arent a good husband wife team .. its a natural, inevitable consequence of being on that finite rollercoaster of "in love".

Pheena thats an interesting point of looking at the big picture of society and seing whats in its best interest. Yes, it would be bad if we were all promiscious. But i dont think that not "total-faithfullness" is having as many partners as possible as often as possible. For example in my case, i've come across four or five girls i'd fall in love with .. thats a handful of potential partners. How many of those would be interested in me? maybe one?

. trying to fill their desires, but to no avail are they fullfilled. Very few realize thru the experience of trying to fullfill their desire of their futile attempts. Then one awakens and seeks out that which WILL fulfill their desires to not desire again.

Yes, that makes sense. However in my case i dont even get to try because my community has already decided for me that its wrong so forget about futile attempts - its just not acceptable to even think about it. As a tihht person, i often have to discover things by myself - sometimes by making a mistake to learn it. However there comes a time when you say, ok so explain to me why exactly i cant.

One is provided with the usual arguments. Sex is special between a husband and wife. Think of the children. Its lack of control. Its this and that. Most if not all of these reasons are fear mongering, very few actually draw your sense of responsibility - which i think is where the focus should be.

We are told that if you wait, you'll be happier. But they dont consider the unreasonable expectations they're putting on your wedding. Not only are you to find a lover in your wife for life, you also find someone who'll raise your kids, cook your food, be your friend and put up with you for life and so many other things that are expected and counterexpected.

If this sounds resentful and confused then you're right. But this is exactly what you get when you buy into doing someting because of group wisdom. Its frought with contraditions and half truths, but worst off all, its unchallengeable. Think of the coolest, nicest person .. that person might be a great but as soon as such a person expresses the desire to be in love thats enough to dismiss him. Weak, unprincipled, unworthy etc.

Phena continues,

It is a matter of perception and the desire one seek. If one has the desire for a Tractor when he has a bull which given him necessary comfort of from going from one place to other, then that tractor will become a burdon.

Do our perceptions and desires make us who we are, or, does being make our perceptions and desires? You tell me. I think they are so intertwined that its hard to tell. IF that is true, is it always possible to influence a perception or desire - after all - it could just be an expression of WHO you are.

Now if you buy into the whole argument that God made us the way we are (the way we act, think etc, what we learn and what mistakes we make) then your desire or perception is what God intended for you. Whos right and wrong then?

I'll end this post now and start a new one cuz it might be getting a bit long. Please dont reply until i post again. thanks!

[sexy_singh]

I almost wish i hadnt made the comment about 'what if i have a bad sexlife with my wife'. Thats getting a lot of comment and it isnt even the issue because in the first place i dont want to express my sexual desires on wife! lol. and that isnt some kinky thing, its just like i said before, shes my queen not sex-buddy-for-life. And thats probably a consequence again of the idea that sex is dirty (that has been beaten into my head by ppl) - and why would i wish that upon my wife?!

Even if you want to disagree that sex isnt dirty in our community, well it isnt clean either. And i'd say its more dirty than clean. It seems especially the religious community fails to offer sensible reasoning and morals.

Pheena like i mentioned in my first post im not too much into the whole control your desires - desire is bad .. avoid avoid.. fight fight fight.. All that does to me is the opposite anyway. Im not saying i live my life based on how i feel and want .. to the contrary .. i often think about every little thing before acting .. and sometimes im impulsive too, i'll admit.

All those things that you guys talk about being important between a wife and husband. Im willin, even eager to do. I will respect, care and love the mother of my children - the wife to me and a crucial part of my overall family.

But this necessarily and practically denies me of 'being in love' . I cannot fall in love with my wife because that'll end badly. I cannot 'be in love' with another person because society cannot accept that. I cannot be 'in love' with another person before meeting my wife because thats also bad. And you ask why?

Well because marriage is special and if you wanna love ur wife, you better not love anyone else before. But once you are married you cannot be in love anyway. brilliant! can u say catch-22 ..

googly kaur thanks for that, and i respect that ur parents have been together that long. I want a successful marriage too, im just a bit mad that i was lied to and told, just get married, then u can fall in love, and we wont mind, but really i cant be in love then either.

What else, im gonna read ur post again more carefully pheena before i comment further.

sounds like what your describing is hedonism. i think it is a valid question to ask how you would feel if your wife jumped into bed with someone else and fell in love with them and with other guys if you couldn't satisfy her?

also do you think you should tell your wife of the way you feel about the subject before you marry her?

No, it isnt hedonism. I didnt even know what that mean until i looked it up and that is definitely not what im about.

And no that isnt a valid question unless you live your life in a vacuum of common sense and superior-internet made equality. In the real world, the one i live, i can expect my wife not to cheat on me because shes my wife. End of story. Sorry if that breaches your charter of equal rights and if it makes me a bigot but i treat women with a lot of respect and dont live my life trying to make every little a matter of social activism.

Final point. All i ever got out of this sort of 'religious' thinking is the ability to judge people and dismiss them are being inadequate lowly beings. I got over that that recently, and realised that even then person who drinks too much, takes drugs and cheats on his wife can be a human being worth caring and loving.

I just dont think that sort of thinking is compatible with religious modes of thought. Just an observation. Perhaps that is why we are so quick to dismiss someone like me. And i do feel slightly dismissed. I certainly dont feel very much love in this thread for me and my ideas!

[palm_w1]

And no that isnt a valid question unless you live your life in a vacuum of common sense and superior-internet made equality. In the real world, the one i live, i can expect my wife not to cheat on me because shes my wife. End of story.

So lets be absolutely clear on this, it would be ok for you to make love to other women if your wife could not satisfy you, but not for your wife to do the same. To be honest if I am getting the right jist of what you are saying I think it is just pure hypocrisy. In the same way that you say you expect your wife not to cheat on you because she is your wife do you not think she has similar expectations of you.

person who drinks too much, takes drugs and cheats on his wife can be a human being worth caring and loving.

quite possibly

and you never answered the final question. would you tell your wife about the way you feel before you married her?

[sexy_singh]

So lets be absolutely clear on this, it would be ok for you to make love to other women if your wife could not satisfy you

Yes.

In the same way that you say you expect your wife not to cheat on you because she is your wife do you not think she has similar expectations of you.

Shes privilliged by being my wife. its not hypocrisy in my community as men have power. for a woman to cheat she leaves the family .. but for a guy to cheat he doesnt leave. its really quite obvious.

no i wouldnt tell her before hand .. because its unlikely she take it the right way and anyway, it would be too jaring to say something like that to someone you dont know that well.

[palm_w1]

Shes privilliged by being my wife. its not hypocrisy in my community as men have power. for a woman to cheat she leaves the family .. but for a guy to cheat he doesnt leave. its really quite obvious.

then perhaps you should help to raise the profile of women in 'your community'. and yes it is hypocrisy, just because your peers accept it doesn't mean it isn't hypocrisy. With your views to be honest i don't see how your wife would be 'privelaged'. i thought pre-historic indian cultural views like this would die out in the new generation of sikhs growing up.

no i wouldnt tell her before hand .. because its unlikely she take it the right way and anyway, it would be too jaring to say something like that to someone you dont know that well.

why will you not know her too well, i assume it will be an arranged marriage then. to be honest it sounds like your relationship will be starting with a lie. it is probably unfair to spring something like that on someone after you have married them.

[sexy_singh]

And how exactly do you propose i raise the profile of women? Also whats the problem with what i said. I see absolutely no reason not to have power over my wife. How else is it supposed to be. Im just following predominant culture. If you disagree with it, fine. But realise that it is absolutely stupid to expect another persons culture be the way you wish and extremely arrogant to think yours is better.

[palm_w1]

fair enuf, each to his own. i am arrogant blah blah blah.

why should u have power over your wife, why can't it be a mutual relationship? how about fundamental equality. treating your wife as an equal would be a step in the right direction to raising womens profiles. i am feeling sorry for your yet to be wife already!

[sexy_singh]

Why should i have it? To be honest i dont know why. But it will be a mutual relationship and just because i have power doesnt necessarily mean that i'll abuse it. Im not convinced that treating women with equality in the way you say will make a positive difference. For example here in the west women supposedly have that equality yet one wonders if that makes for a better society overall. Im inclined to think as long as one is fair and just and reasonable that its ok for the husband to have power. If he abuses it then thats wrong. But then again, an abuser will abuse regardless of any supposed equality.

[Rakash Singh]

so hold on... what you are saying is you cannot love your wife like your "lover"? Is this due to the fact you don't know her very well, maybe a lack of chemistry, a lack of lust? or maybe an incompatiability of somesort.

maybe an arranged marriage is not for you then if you feel the need to go elsewhere for sexual satisfaction. look for your own wife instead...

is it me or are you making this ludacrisally difficult...

at first i thought you were asking why is it wrong to have a sexual partner before marriage, but now i realise you are asking something along the lines of why can't i have sexual partner other than my wife whilst married...

is it incomprehendable to have both qualities of a good lover and good wife and mother to your children in one woman? i think not.

[Sukhi]

whoooooooaaaaaa there nellaaaaay!

i've got a couple of things to add to this fine and disgusting lil thread.

sexy singh, you've got some TWISTED ideas if you think that your wife isn't gonna be your equal.

inequality between men and women is something our Gurus fought AGAINST. so exactly where do you come in and ask for that equality to be put aside for your own need for power over your wife and polygamous desires?

get this straight buddy: women aren't weak and they aren't powerless. the sooner you realize this, the better off you are. if you're under the impression that the husband has all the power in a marriage, then you'd better take notice. women are just as powerful if not more in a marriage. why? because they're the ones that handle the house, raise the kids among many other things.

secondly, if sex was seen as something really dirty, then we wouldnt have been encouraged to live a gristh jeevan. it's true that sex isn't overtly discussed in our community. and it's true that extra-marital and pre-marital sex is seen as something wrong (FOR A REASON, YOU DORK!). but this doesn't reflect on the nature of sex as being "unclean".

i would go on, but i'm thoroughly disgusted at this point. i'll come back later.

[Pheena]

With all due respect for your courage to open up and speak your true mind to us all. I cannot help you in trying to justify having sex outside of marriage, not only are ones Morals being questioned, but also the adverse effects of contracting diseases from other partners. I don't think i have the right words which can give you the words that you need to hear. But i pray that you find the one who will give you the correct dosage of medicine. Your post itself shows that you are qeustioning your motives, that you have not completly made you your mind.

One thing that got my attention was that you had mentioned that your wife would be your queen. If she is your Queen, then a King is a King because there is a Queen to marry. All i got to say is a be a Faithfull King not only towards you queen, but towards your small Kingdom to be. Many a kings have ruined their kingdoms in pleasures and dictatorship like attitude. They not only ruined themselves, but also the names tha tthey carried. Scarred in the pages of History. But once is there a King who shows the real meaning of being a King. Be that King of your small kingdom to be. A King Sacrifises his self for the needs of his people and his queen. Do you know the meanign of a King/Raja. The word Raja implies that he who is Full, Rujiya (Contempt). He who is fullfilled is a Raja. But besides a few, never have there been kings who acted like they were Rajas, they were more hungry for power, prestigue, pleasures of the flesh and mind. Few are true Raja. If you are sincere about your wife being your Queen, then become the King. Give her all you have. Love exists in the field of Surrender. And where that love sprouts, there everyone is equal, no one dominates. Love is that quality which creates balance.

Forgive me if my post seems judgemental, but i can only see and understand you from what you have written.

[Dynamic_Banda]

i like this topic.. i havnt been paying much attention to it but now im intrested..

all i have to say is that a man who feels he has the right to power cannot control that power and will infact do more damage then good.

Never demand respect as that is not the way to get power, but earn it. If you earn the respect the I agree with what you say sexy singh u will have a high status in the eyes of your wife but one which she has given you which means she will uphold it, not the other way round where u have to force it..

At the end of your last post you say and abuser will abuse .. i like that, it shows an element of acceptance rather then expectance.. but the coin has two sides if you want people to accept your differences then you may also have to accept a womens difference and desire not to be controlled or overpowered by her husband.( meaning he has no right to sex outside)

So as pheena made it quite clear, be the best king you can for that queen if you see her as such..

[sexy_singh]

rakash singh, if you care to read the rest of the thread i think you'll find thats been adressed already!

sukhi whoa! if you only wanted to bite my head off, i think u should give back the rest of my beautifully rounded panjaby belly.

i've got a couple of things to add to this fine and disgusting lil thread.

sexy singh, you've got some TWISTED ideas if you think that your wife isn't gonna be your equal.

Uh, man if shes anything like you then damn .. i dont think i have any choice on the matter ..

inequality between men and women is something our Gurus fought AGAINST. so exactly where do you come in and ask for that equality to be put aside for your own need for power over your wife and polygamous desires?

Hmm. Ok, i agree that they fought to end the abuse of women. Like that sati stuff and they spoke ill of killing female babies (i think) and that women were unholy (in the brahminical system). And i think they were pretty cool when it came to seeing ppl as being the same - didnt guru gobind singh say, "Recognise the whole human race as one?" .. so i believe you.

BUT. I dont think they had a problem, with the idea of men being powerful. Correct me if im wrong, but that doesnt come up as a social issue. Women are made to seem valuable, ney, invaluable .. and great (i agree!) and things. Ofcourse this could be a consequence of sikh history written 'his' way. however i just dont see it as equality by saying equality.

whether or not u put it aside for my desires, thats a different topic!

get this straight buddy: women aren't weak and they aren't powerless. the sooner you realize this, the better off you are. if you're under the impression that the husband has all the power in a marriage, then you'd better take notice. women are just as powerful if not more in a marriage. why? because they're the ones that handle the house, raise the kids among many other things.

no women arent weak and they arent powerless. they are strong and powerful in their own way. and i believe you about a woman being more powerful in a marriage.. but i think thats just a humouring thing, u let ur wife think shes running things.. oh i dont know. i just dont want a wife who thinks she can walk all over me - i suppose thats what we all want, male or female. its just easier for me to say i'll have power and leave it that way, status-quo if you like.

secondly, if sex was seen as something really dirty, then we wouldnt have been encouraged to live a gristh jeevan. it's true that sex isn't overtly discussed in our community. and it's true that extra-marital and pre-marital sex is seen as something wrong (FOR A REASON, YOU DORK!). but this doesn't reflect on the nature of sex as being "unclean"

ok

i would go on, but i'm thoroughly disgusted at this point. i'll come back later.

please

[sexy_singh]

pheena wicked post. yes, my responsibility to my wife and family will be my biggest legacy .. and maybe its worth a little more, just out of the sheer difficulty involved than a few moments of 'in love' .. i think u've convinced me.

i suppose in the end im talking about having a good marriage with all the trimmings .. and maybe a harmless fling or two to keep things interesting. but i suppose that could be irresponsible.

dynamic u wrote

all i have to say is that a man who feels he has the right to power cannot control that power and will infact do more damage then good.

sort of that argument which says anyone who wants to be president shouldnt be president. interesting.

at the end of the day you can question my motives for having that power, but if i say to you my motives arent intended to be harmful .. cant you live with me having power?

after all we all have some sort of power. u might have power over your little cousin, or you might have power over the poor beggar on the street .. or you might have power over the people who work under you.

if u argue that having that power makes u bad, then what kind of world are you wishing for? and is it really sensible to talk about something that doesnt exist?

[Dynamic_Banda]

hey like i said acceptance not expectance, if u have that power i cant expect it to be for a good reason or a bad one, i should theoretically just accept it ... lol

and also like i said i have no problem if the power is earned but if its forced then hey thats a form of oppression init..