tSingh Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 'Bhai Kanhiayya is thought to be amritdhari by an equal number to those who think he was not amritdhari' This is incorrect. A small number of people (usually the same who believe the bhagats were chelas of Guru Nanak Dev) propose it based on an assumption (that everyone has to take amrit) rather than any historical information pre-1900. Find me one historical textual reference to him with the word 'Singh' attached pre-1900. Even in english, I have rarely seen Bhai Kanhaiyya Singh. Sevapanthi itihas attributes Guru Gobind Singh ji himself as the one who removed the talwaar from Bhai Kanhaiya. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehtab Singh Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 everyone has their own reasons for taking/not taking Amrit. It is human nature to justify one's actions (both good and bad) to appease their conscience (should they possess one). No one has the right to dictate terms to another based on their own perception - the Gurus never did so, and we are certainly in no position to do so either. A choice is offered, the decision is left to the individual.True say! No one has a monopoly on Akal Purakh...thats the ideology of fanatics, religious politicians and tyrants.I agree. no one is undermining or 'belittling' Amrit...by stating that it is a CHOICE, that does not devalue the glory of Amrit.ok, thanks for clarifying. Enjoy your Friday, and have a good weekend...you too This is incorrect. A small number of people (usually the same who believe the bhagats were chelas of Guru Nanak Dev) propose it based on an assumption (that everyone has to take amrit) rather than any historical information pre-1900.The bhagats being chelas of Guru Nanak has also been discussed by Baba Thakur Singh jee (plzz check gursikhi jeevan for his kathas). Find me one historical textual reference to him with the word 'Singh' attached pre-1900. Even in english, I have rarely seen Bhai Kanhaiyya Singh. Sevapanthi itihas attributes Guru Gobind Singh ji himself as the one who removed the talwaar from Bhai Kanhaiya.There are many sakhis where Guru Sahib (inspite of showering love on His Sikhs) did encourage them to take Amrit. So its hard to accept that someone like Bhai Kanhaiya was without this blessing. But if you believe it so strongly, and you claim to have historical evidences (which can't always be relied upon), then please feel free to believe so. If taking Amrit wasn't a big deal, why would Gurujee compose "Khalsa mero roop hai khaas"? Or is there gonna be another debate about this not being a part of Bani? Before concluding, lemme mention that its not gonna benefit or harm me a single bit if someone (especially someone reading all this) took Amrit or didn't. Its for themselves and not for me. Sikhi aint like some faiths where you get someone converted and book your seat in heaven. Everyone has their own way of following Sikhi, as well as growing and developing as a Sikh, and to each man/woman who is following/growing/developing : may they succeed. I myself used to speak the same words I am arguing against today, but its only now that I feel the importance of what Amrit is and so I am saying what I am saying. May Gurujee bless everyone 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexy_singh Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 (especially someone reading all this) took Amrit or didn't. Its for themselves and not for me. Sikhi aint like some faiths where you get someone converted and book your seat in heaven. actually .. at my amrit sanchar, i remember being told that if i "converted" (read got them to take amrit) 5 people(im not sure if it was 5) then all my mistakes would be wiped out or.. some such thing.. it seemed like an odd thign to say. well, there you go. reality is stranger than fiction! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Mehtab ji, I admire your mature approach to this topic. Sadly such discussions end in misunderstanding and mud-slinging. The difference here is that whereas you hold an 'all or nothing' approach, others who follow traditional history and practices hold a 'diverse panth' model. Lets be very clear about WHO these people are - Taksal, Nanaksar, Rarewale, Sant Samaj, Nihang dals, pre-1900 written history, pre-1900 oral history, foreign accounts, etc. From a 'modern' perspective there is only one type of sikh in varying degrees of seriousness. Yet history doesn't really support such an understanding. OF COURSE Guru ji gave us the Khalsa roop, and of course it is a GREAT thing to be a Khalsa. OF COURSE Guru ji lauds the greatness of the Khalsa. What coexists is the sehajdhari rehitnama from Bhai Mani Singh's bhagatratnavali with Guru ji stated as it's source, the sakhis in written and oral history about Guru ji specifically giving the Sewapanthi roop and maryada (as a humanitarian unarmed order), with Guru ji's interaction with Udasis, with the creation of the Nirmal Bhekh prior to the Khalsa, etc. This doesn't contradict the absolute paramount greatness of amrit. It instead creates a diverse and adaptable set of maryadas designed to support the panth. The existence of a pacifist humanitrian group does not contradict the importance of amrit. Guru ji gives his reasons for creating them, and for taking away the talwaar of Bhai Kanhaiyya. An example that suits this here is Sant Jagjit Singh Herkhowal, who is amritdhari. He was trained by Pandit Suhail Singh ji Nirmala. While living with each other, he had his rehit which he was strict about, and Pandit ji had his own Nirmala rehit which he was equally strict about. The alternatives to the Khalsa to my mind, are the sehajdhari maryada, or moving into an equally strict rehit within a samprda. Once you begin rejecting these orders, these traditions, then it is no wonder that a) there is a disintegration due to mutually competative 'jathas' a simplified miscasting into orthodox-heterodox c) a ever increasing move to fanatacism and hypocracy about who is the most orthodox. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehtab Singh Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 actually .. at my amrit sanchar, i remember being told that if i "converted" (read got them to take amrit) 5 people(im not sure if it was 5) then all my mistakes would be wiped out or.. some such thing.. it seemed like an odd thign to say. well, there you go. reality is stranger than fiction!Thats the first time I heard something like that. You wanna elaborate a bit more if you remember ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 I myself used to speak the same words I am arguing against today, but its only now that I feel the importance of what Amrit is and so I am saying what I am saying. perhaps Amrit is a decision people must make after certain experiences. you yourself only grew to understand how important it is after some time. and perhaps Amrit is important at a certain stage. what i'm trying to say is that for a child of 4 years, it's a challenge to learn how to make a block building. whereas for a university grad, the challenge is to complete their PhD. there are two different challenges. and for each stage, the challenge they are faced with is equally as important. in fact, the child can only reach the PhD someday in the future once he can overcome the challenge of making that building out of blocks. and so it is with Sikhi and reaching our final stage. whether or not Amrit is the last stage remains a question we can all debate for ourselves. but is it important? certainly. how important it is depends on where you are in terms of spiritual development. for the child playing with blocks, getting a PhD is probably far out of his scope. so far out that it's not something he's thought of. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 i play for both teams.... i agree with alot of what Mehtab Singh Ji is saying here.... in reference to what Sukhi just said, i think the point she has missed, r maybe forgot, is the fact that Mehtab was once a Rochak... i'm sure he realized the greatness of amrit after he took it... BUT, i'm also thikning about what Nirsingha's been saying here... and on many levels i lean twards him as well... No one can dictate who is to take amrit and who should not....and no one should, and if they are, they're being just as "unsikh" as the adultering-haircutting-weedsmoking-alcoholic.... in my eyes anyways... that's an opinion i'm very firm on, so i choose to not have to justify it. The thing is we take the word "Hukam" and use it as a convenience... if someone dies in an accident, its "Hukam", it's God's will... Hukam and Karma are closely intertwined, and Guruji tells us: tinni peeta rang sio, JIN KO LIKHIAA AAD those are the ones who drink this amrit in, those who have it written in their karma. But we never say it's through Guru's hukam that one did NOT take amrit in their lifetime.. isn't that odd? it's like.. God's power is there, but if someone didn't take amrit, it's cuz god didn't have power over that person.... my response to that: :roll: this is closely related to the firm opinion of mine i stated above.. You (used in general) are dogcrap, and thus have no right to say who gets to take amrit and who doesn't, and who should, and who shouldn't A fundamental point made by sukhi earlier on is that there should be NO DISCRIMINATION between he who is amritdhari and he who is not (and that goes for them "she's" too).... That all being said, rehit is quite important...... rehit isn't jus like "hmm..what am i doin this sunday.... nothing? k, let's practice some rehit!".... i think we would all probably be in agreement that the state of sikhi would be much much greater if we were allll rehitdhari singhs and singhnees (and rehit is obviously used in understanding the great amounts of discrepancies b/ween the various rehits out there), however this simply is NOT the case.... however on that note, one very important statement by Mehtab Singh Ji is " Don't belittle Amrit", and frankly, i dunno if that's happening here, but it's definitely something that has to be kept in mind. I do agree with him that if one is not ready to take amrit, then that's nothing to be ashamed of... it's usually the bigger man, the one who can admit he's not ready (and man is used in general, not as a sexist, gender biased, let's be a tyrant, way).... but if you can admit that, don't justify it as "well maybe it's not important", because for alotta amritdharis out there, that kinda feels like a slap in the face... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 great reply JSB. i agree with a lot of what you say. just to clarify on one point: i agree with alot of what Mehtab Singh Ji is saying here.... in reference to what Sukhi just said, i think the point she has missed, r maybe forgot, is the fact that Mehtab was once a Rochak... i'm sure he realized the greatness of amrit after he took it... i was aware of who Mehtab was before. for Rochak to have become Mehtab, he would've needed an understanding of the importance of Amrit to a certain extent before. the rest of his realization would be knowledge gained after taking Amrit. tha's all i wanted to say bout this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexy_singh Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Ya, know.. i concur with amrit being super everything and all. but from personal experience, i wasnt well prepared at all. easily the best thing i've done - but its a big thing to handle .. and almost everyone that i talked to said, oh just go ahead, its easy .. take the step forward etc. so thats where im coming from. i refuse to tell anyone, that they should take it .. and if someone comes to me and asks, "should i?" .. i wont do what the guy who i asked did and say "look you already live your life a certain way (so called religious life .. no drug habbits, dont go around starting fights or stealing .. dont shave, dont cut my hair, etc etc) .. then taking amrit, is just more of the same" it wasnt more of the same, it was some strange "spiritual" thing which i wont describe here. but needless to say, if someone asks me, i'll tell them "dude, just bloody do your research .. find out if its for you"... and certainly the last thing i'd do is tell anyone they'll be more acceptable if they take it. because thats all for the wrong reasons. in hindisight while it was something i wanted to do. the so-called sangat around me didnt give me any honest harsh real world lessons .. they just said oh go do iit, and after that ... they might have considered me an equal, but i felt at least a little cheated by them. oh and i also noticed, they stopped paying attention to me afterwards .. maybe because i was already converted. but obviously that doesnt apply to all of them.. anyway, there is a million different ppl out there who act differently, im just describing one little story. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 everyone keeps on defining sikh in their own words....why dnt u see what guruji has to say about what a sikh comprises of and then make ur conclusion based on that, at the moment all i can see is opinionated arguments....why dnt u go to the source 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexy_singh Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 anyway, going back to the topic .. another reason for growing kesh is because it intimidates ppl .. well until you open your mouth if ppl are intimidated by you, you have power over them .. thats often useful .. but like all powers it must be harnessed for good effect 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 all i can say to sikh fauge is dont cut yah hair to please the goriyah, , joke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehtab Singh Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 so lets agree and conclude on the points that Amrit should be taken once one feels ready No one is superior to anyone in anyway Nothing should be forced on anyone Let everyone grow and develop spiritually at their own pace as Gurujee has decided for them and Sukhi and jsb, please don't use me as any reference...u guys seem to be far ahead than most people as u have grasped the basic and fundamental essence of Sikhi (i.e acceptance and tolerance)...u people talking high of me is like a gorgeous and silent swan appreciating the nasty and noisy crow...hahahaha 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted January 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Thank you for all the posts, but without sounding rude, this topic has kinda lost the plot! I wasnt asking whether amrit is important or not, i was asking whether it is a requirement (or logical) for a non amrit dhari to keep the kesh (unless they plan to take amrit in the near future)?? I remember stumbling across a rehitnama (cant remember which one) in which guru ji says, he who keeps the apperance of a khalsa, without taking amrit is an imposter. ??? Amrit, of course is so important..otherwise guru ji wouldnt have knelt down and asked for it..but im asking where i stand in the sikh faith (when i do have alot of love for the teachings) when im an aspiring musician ("Pop" music) who will go to clubs,etc..i dont have a problem with these things, but as a kesh dhari, i know im going to get alot of negativity..sure, im getting it now, but no one sees me as relegious anymore so im not getting it from the people whos opinion means more to me i.e. people who live in the service of god. And amrik singh, this isnt for the birds lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted January 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Ok ignore the middle portion of the last message, cos its going into things a bit too deeply (and it'll make more sense in a seperate topic/post) but for now, can we discuss the "requirements" for a non amrit dhari to keep the kesh?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 depends if on what sikh means to u....if it means u dnt have to take amrit, then u can do what u want...al i kno is that someone who learns, only learns if they listen to what their teacher is telling them.... wen say that talkin about amrit is goin off the topic, i disagree... you must decide what being a sikh means to u...for some it means amrit is required, for others it doesnt... personally i feel that there is no sikh without amrit.... bhai gurdaas ji talks about charan da amrit in the times before guru gobind singh ji... like i sed, if u feel that amrit isnt necessary, then keeping ur hair is ur own choice.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted January 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Well this is where im confused tableji.. I dont beleive to be a sikh you have to be an amrit dhari.. Maybe im wrong..but i find it hard to beleive that amrit gives "salvation"..i find it hard to beleive that the same guru who abolished the whole idea of there being a priestly caste, would say to reach god you have to go through the panj pyarai..that sounds really bad i know, and i hope i dont cause anyone offence..but hey, i gotta ask these question or i'll never learn.. Also, where does that leave the likes of banda singh bahader? Or indeed the bhagats who contributed to the guru granth sahib? Were they amrit dhari? If they werent elightened beings, then why do we bow to them? Cant the same truth which pervaded their hearts and minds exist in the khalsa, and vice versa? Doesnt that then void the need for amrit..? Ok im going off topic (the point of this paragraph was to just emphasize that one can reach spiritual heights without being khalsa.) Also, when guru gobind singh ji compiled the guru granth sahib (or made baba deep singh write four copies i think it was) why then didnt guru ji in gurbani explicitly state that the gurus sikh has to take amrit..? the only hukkamnama i can remember which defines a gursikh is "he who calls himself a sikh of the guru, should rise at the ambrosial hours and contemplate on gods name".. At the end of the day, what narsingha said is true..im going to justify my actions by asking these questions..and ur going to refute them because u dont want destabilise what u beleive in..so try and be nice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 a couple of quick points: Mehtab, you're outta your mind. lol... jsb might be a swan, but i'm still not there yet. flattery gets you nowhere fast. as far as i know, there is no quote in SGGSJ that says that amrit is necessary to be a sikh. i might be wrong. if someone could clarify, it'd be appreciated. but quotes from Bhai Gurdas and others are still perspectives of highly enlightened beings. as important as these suggestions are, they aren't exactly Guru Sahib's hukam. having said all that, i still believe that amrit is important (as explained in my previous point) and the suggestions of highly enlightened souls shouldn't be ignored merely because they aren't the words of our Gurus. tha's about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 Perhaps this will answer many of your questions. http://www.khalis.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/...Amrit_Part1.mp3 http://www.khalis.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/...Amrit_Part2.mp3 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 swans are white... i'm brown.... get the point? plus..mehtab's hotttttttt (l) as far as i'm concerned, you've gotta decide yourself now.... and no... this isn't "emotional blackmail"....... but if you feel that the rehitnaama is telling you to cut your hair..... then why even stop there.. i mean you only did your beard right?? jus chop the rest....right?? clearly i'm being sarcastic, but what i'm saying is, if you feel that the rehitnaama is honestly telling you that you should cut your hair, then that's a whole NEW topic...... but as long as i'm going to reply to what you've said...you'er right... it's definitely sounding like you're justifying your actions. i don't even know where to tackle this, and i don't think it should even BE tackled anymore, cuz it feels like you've asked a question that you already have your answer to... so i'm finding it increasingly hard (and even sometimes pointless) to even offer a view... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mehtab Singh Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 I'd like to thank Pheena veerji for posting those links...finally !! Sukhi and jsb, ok you are not swams biologically still a lot better than many :wink: ...no I am not flattering any of you :twisted: And sikh_fauge, I think the best thing to do right now would be an Ardas to Gurujee to lead you on the path He has chosen for you, and then leave it all upto Him. If He wants you to be an Amritdhari, it will happen even before you know. If otherwise, then just accept that also as His will. Don't let anyone pressurize or influence you into doing or not doing something. At the end of the day its you who has to show your face to Gurujee, and remember, only His is the true relationship thats gonna be there eternally! So best is to ask Him for His blessings, no matter what way or how they come to you. All the best 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 nishan sikhi eee punj harf kaaf hargiz na bashid eee punj muaaf bhai nand laal jus sez that a sikhs image contains 5 kaaf (persian for Ks) kara kardo kach kunga bidha bina kes hech asth jumla nisha now u have the gurbani, u make a decision....believe wot u want or history?? or believ what guruji tells you?? Mahan Kosh also says that Amrit Sanskaar is in the sikh dharam...doesnt mention khalsa dharam.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Are you now suggesting that when Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh Ji 'asked' people to take Amrit at Anandpur Sahib that EVERYONE took Amrit? (ie, because according to you it was 'necessary'). By your analogy, those who did not take Amrit (eg, Bhai Kanhaiya, Sewa Das, Banda Bahadur, etc.) found the tenth Guru's wishes to be 'less relevant'. According to Gurbani Paath Darshan by Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa Pindranvale.....80 THOUSAND people took amrit that day....oh and also can u prove that Bhai Kanhaiya, Sewa Das, Banda Bahadur did not take amrit?? I mean its like if i take amrit, its not like someones going to make a record of it lol....dnt take this the wrong way, in no way am i tryin to make a comparison between myself and Bhai Kanhaiya .... but what about all the other singhs that did seva, or fought in battles and were shaheed...surely they shud be name aswell 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguptkaur Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 to be a sikh of Guru Nanak dev ji you must take amrit and hence keep hair all ten saroops are the same and the 10th saroop gave hukam to all his followers to take amrit and enrol in the khalsa panth sikh=khalsa we have heard that th10th saroop started other sampardas nirmale, udasi etc did he actually start these?? didn't he just say that these will flourish? saying that doesnt mean they are right or wrong, or that we as sikhs can follow them if we want to class ourselves as sikh of Guru Nanak dev ji we must follow all commands 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 see my previous post about Bhai Kanhaiyya - sakhis recording Guru ji taking the talwaar off him 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.