Saiibhang and Infinity...

[Pheena]

Tsingh wrote:

Saibhang and infinity...

Here are some nice questions to ponder...

1. Can God be infinite if there is a finite point at which God manifests?

2. Out of what and for what reason did God manifest?

3. Does a finite God contradict advaitist notions, as there must logically be an 'other' out of which God manifested?

I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on such topics. Using this reasoning Buddhists argue for the non-existence of God. Points I think are worth bringing into this discussion include concept of maya, time and space, etc.

hmm it seems the paradoxes in the creation of the creator are ever present.

1. The idea seems to present a mirrored image of god in the manifestation which would begin at a certain point and end at another ie: his Creation/Universe. but is it not also possible that He after creating his creation Manifested himself into the creation. He is the Dancer and he is the Dance. As infinite is he, so must be his Creation for he himself is the Vast Creation. When the Dancer stops, so must be the Fate of his Dance.

A beatifull Kafi i heard the other day.

"Ous Ka Mukh Ik Joat Hai, GoonGHat Hai Sansaar,

GoonGHat May Vho Schup Gaya, Mukh Par Aanchal Daal"

2. Impossible qustion to Answer. only the creator knows why he creates...the only answer i can think of is Love or out of sheer Boredom.

3. His Manifestation into matter is a part of him. He is a part of the 'Other' which he himself manifested.

[Hari]

I don't usually do this, but I'll be silly for you.

1. There isn't really supposed to be a point from which It manifests.Where is the point where you are when you are in deep sleep?There is no point.When you are in deep sleep, there is no point.I remember reading something on Qabbalah, that God has no centre, no point, but due to It's "Negative Light" reflecting back on to It's Self, a point is created.Something like that.Sorry I can't remember the rest.

I believe there is no point from where It manifests.So no finite point either.

2. I manifest from myself when I arise from deep sleep to dream sleep/pre-waking consciousness.Maybe that's what It did, in a sort of similar way.Why did It manifest?Desire?Boredom (like Pheena said above)?Loneliness?

3. Is this question in relation to question 1?Well, God's not finite, because of what I said in answer 1. above.No point, no finite point, no finite God.

I will elaborate if you prod me a bit more.But I find it very hard to type what I feel, know and intuit.Sorry if my answers weren't satisfactory.

[Hari]

Buddhists are funny.They say they don't believe in God, yet have so many gods and goddesses in their pantheon.Not to mention Svayambu (Saibham).

I believe all talk about wether God exists or does not exist is futile and silly.How can you discuss something which has been described by mystics as "Being and Nothingness"?Oh well, IT is Akath Katha.

Allah Hu Akbar....

[tSingh]

If God is infinite, it cannot have a point of origin by definition, otherwise it is only potentially infinte assuming it continues to expand. However, the issue I'm not clear on is, are both time and space the product of 'activity'/'energy'? Tantr and vedantic philosophy suggests such. Therefore both time and space (hence the big bang, visnu's breathing out and back in itself again) are part of maya. In actual fact there is nothingness - time and space are an illusion as such (from the relative stand point of pure brahm).

Next question arising is, in that original state of self-existence/non-existence, what was the nature of brahm? The categories of 'something' and 'nothing' would appear useless and insufficient, therefore it is ineffable. Perhaps this part is the 'akatha katha' as it transcends human understanding...

...but it's still good to have a try, especially if you hold that we ARE brahm, just clouded into thinking we are not, hehe.

[tSingh]

The reason It self-manifested?

Tantr - shakti breaking the yantr of unmanifested shiv, self expression

Kashmiri Shaivam - the joy/leela of realising Itself again and again

[Hari]

(Took Firefox ages to access this BTW)

The Akath Katha part I'm not touching, no way.I can't possibly say anything about the original "state" of Vahiguru.But I will comment on the follwoing points you made tSingh Ji:

However, the issue I'm not clear on is, are both time and space the product of 'activity'/'energy'?

Yes, movement is the nature of Time.That is what I define Time as.Constant moving flux.The visible and invisible movement of matter/energy.I personally have come to the conclusion that this world we live and our lives are much like a movie reel.Because this world is made from little "bits" (atoms etc.), the movement of these bits from one point to the next is the cause of Time and space.They must be moving in infinitesimally small steps, like a movie reel.Watching a movie the film appears to be alive.The same I believe with this Sansar.

I believe Time and space exist due to this constant movement.Small steps, like beads on a very very long string, is what makes this world appear to be, to move.There must be a gap in between these steps, these beads, no?

The reason It self-manifested?

Tantr - shakti breaking the yantr of unmanifested shiv, self expression

Kashmiri Shaivam - the joy/leela of realising Itself again and again

Both these reasons are interesting.But maybe there is no reason?

[HeyDudesWassup]

I believe Time and space exist due to this constant movement.Small steps, like beads on a very very long string, is what makes this world appear to be, to move.There must be a gap in between these steps, these beads, no?

Deepak Chopra describes this as the on/off switch which is contantly flickering, we realise this when we get inside the gap. I think Wayne Dyer has a book on it too.

[tSingh]

There is Aquinas' 5 justifications back from the 13th century include the 'unmoved mover', that trace back energy to it's original source, there must by definition be an initial cause, this is based on Aristotle's idea of the same about the movement of the universe.

Is the absence of movement/energy, in a physical sense, void? I know someone who could answer these questions from a physics perspective...guv? Are you out there?

[Hari]

There is Aquinas' 5 justifications back from the 13th century include the 'unmoved mover', that trace back energy to it's original source, there must by definition be an initial cause, this is based on Aristotle's idea of the same about the movement of the universe.

That initial cause, the origin of all energy is here and now.It is there within and without.From where your being comes from, it is now.You don't necassarily have to trace energy back through a timeline.The "void" from where energy comes from is now.

Shri Mahayogi Patanjali says that Nirvikalp Samadhi is like being fully conscious in deep sleep.The deeper we go down into our existence, past the body's cells, molecules, atoms, past energy, there is silence.I believe when an aspirant yogin gets to the energy stage they experience the Anhad Naad.I believe the Anhad Naad is the vibration/music of this "dancing" energy.And we can "hear" or rather experience this sound vibration, once we withdraw into ourselves.Maybe the Anhad Naad is the original state of Maya/matter, I can't say for sure.

There are supposedly several levels to the Anhad Nad, depending on which scripture you read.

[tSingh]

I agree, although remember that pataanjali had a very different understanding of the cosmological nature of parmatma.

My view of the flaw of Aquinas is the restriction to both time and space, which from the greater perspective of parmatma are illusory. That void is quite the opposite to my mind, but instead absolute.

I love your words on silence, this is the absolute silence, nothing other than.

But what is the quality of anahadnaad/sabad - what are your feelings on this, is it the very Essence itself, or an aspect of? Is the energy and the jot - source of energy any different qualitatively?

[Hari]

I would say that Anhad Nad is the sound of energy.I don't think it is the essence of the Mystery, but the essence of matter perhaps.I'm not much of a physicist, but isn't gross matter, sort of compacted radiation?The Anhad Nad is supposed to be experienced along with the inner luminosity phenomenon.That is what the scriptures have said.

I don't know the difference between the inner light and energy.Maybe the light excites the energy?Maybe the light causes the energy to dance?Maybe the light is the first "born" Son (Atman) of the Father (Mystery), and the Son's seed causes the Daughter (Maya) to dance, to give birth?

Maybe the experience of "hearing" the Anhad Nad and "seeing" the Jyot is what is known as Shiv-Shakti?Oh, I don't know tSingh Ji.These things are to be experienced.In the end I am talking about something I know nothing about.

[Guest]

I think, god Manifests his creation (this universe) in "Ikongkar" dhuni - shabad theory..big sound bang...

This is very deep question...as japji sahib says, we can't know his time/place/how he was created or world was created..

[challenge_everything]

all i can say is reading the posts here... vah ji vah

[tSingh]

Of course, hari, of course. Gyaan is nothing, vigyaan is priceless - (this is the essential aspect of the Nirmal samprday, learning it and acting upon it).

But this is vismaad Hari, from thinking through to that beautiful silence beyond thoughts, of ineffable awe!

[jsb]

honestly, though.. is it truly any of our Business what god does?? what i mean is, isn't it simply possible that God gives us a certain extent of brainpower, but clearly not enough that we don't even understand what God does....how He "lives".. how He "does"... we jus DON'T know.. and there's absoultely no way to find out.....FOR us, GOD is the absolute definition of infinity... we have no ability to ponder the greatness (or finiteness/infiniteness) of God, cuz we just don't have the ability to grasp it..

[guv]

Is the absence of movement/energy, in a physical sense, void? I know someone who could answer these questions from a physics perspective...guv? Are you out there?

i'll mull over what's been written & get back to u.

[Amrikingh]

God Is Infinite - Bhai Gurdass ji

By His own Command (Word), God manifested Himself in millions of forms.

Fusing the five elements of air, water, fire, earth and sky together, He began the drama of the universe.

He created the innumerable living creatures who inhabit the waters, lands, trees and mountains.

God is one , and He is capable of creating millions of worlds in the twinkling of an eye.

No one can estimate the immensity of Nature.(1)

Who can then know the greatness of its Creator ?

God is Limitless and Infinite

18.1

1. Vastness of God's creation.

[Amrikingh]

God manifested in the creation - Bhai Gurdass ji

When God created the universe, there was no concept of time or season.

Since He Himself is Formless, He cannot be known.

He manifested Himself in His creation, and became known to us as the Creator. (1)

God is the Cause of All Cayses; I bow to that One, who was in the past, who is, and always shall be.

For He who has no Beginning and no end, He being Infinite, is beyond computation.

He created the world, He pervades in all things within it.

18.7

1. Having created human beings, He gave them a means of salvation, through an understanding of His "Name". the "Name" represents God as the Holy Spirit, and so is able to lead us to Him.

[Guest]

*Mega Bump*

[Guest]

i'll mull over what's been written & get back to u.

oi guv bandya,

did u mulled over yet?

[Guest]

*Mega Bump* again

[SAadmin]

Bump

[harsharan000]

Sangat Jee, just my two cents:

Saibhang and infinity...

Here are some nice questions to ponder...


1. Can God be infinite if there is a finite point at which God manifests?

The Bani says: Har mandir ehu sareer hae.... So if this is the case, that Wahiguru Akal Purukh Himself is within us, and we all know He is infinite, that does not limit Him to our limited bodies...and still He is as limitless, apaar as ever.... it is our intelect which is limited.

Moreover, the Bani clearly says: Har Jee baseh Sadh ke hirdey, like our Guru Sahibans, who were the manifestation of Akal Purukh Himself in human form, but that did not limit Him in any ways.... He is just infinitely marvelous .... Wah Wah Sachay Patshah

2. Out of what, and for what reason did God manifest?

Well, the Bani says Wahiguru is Shabad. Long long ago before manifesting Himself as Wahiguru, He was absorbed in Himself as Shabad. When it was His Mauj to manifest Himself, He took the form of Satnam.

The reason He manifested for, was to just make us aware of His unbound love, grace and mercy.

3. Does a finite God contradict advaitist notions, as there must logically be an 'other' out of which God manifested?

First of all, God is not finite. Myabe the gods or godesses, angels or other heavenly beings are limited inspite of their higher spiritual position to an extent, but that does not apply to Him even to the size of an atom...

Moreover, the bani says, everything was made from Him, out of Him.

As we all know and have heard:Sabh Gobind hae, sabh Gobind hae, Gobind bin nahee koee ....

For example, we all know who is Messi, the most talented football player in the world now. And when he steps the football ground to play a match, he like all other players puts on the football dress to play the match.

Just as the football dress is not Messi, cause Messi is the consciousness who has put on the dress to play the match, but all his talent and knowledge is within his body, is not in the football dress ....

Or for example, David Beckham, used to play in Manchester United in England, then he came to play in Madrid, Spain. He changed the football dress of Manchester, to put on the other one of Real Madrid. So what did he do? He just changed the dress/uniform of one team, to put the other one ....but the changing of the uniforms/ dresses, did not diminish at all the talent and potential in Beckham.

In a similar way, Wahiguru puts on the physical body, in order to interact with us here, and make Himself known to us. But His powers, Love , Grace, Mercy...in no way are limited to the body. The Guru Sahibans, Gurmukhs, Brahamgyanis are not the body, but a level of Consciousness, of the highest order, manifesting itself in that body for a time being...

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited May 9, 2015 by harsharan000