Sukhi Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 yeah so what would the kid do? i'm not sure myself. you can't just go from being animalistic all your life to bein a proper pimp the next day cuz you want a family. and who's to say that these kids raised as animals would want a family anyway? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 well does the majority of animal life procreate? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 sure they do. but the child raised by animals would probably want to procreate with what he considers a part of his/her accepted community. and "civilized" humans aren't exactly part of that accepted circle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 i watched a documentary on feral children a few months back... amazing stuff. a human can only learn the higher art of language (grammar etc) within the first 3-4 years of their life. after that it seems to be impossible for them to learn... they can still learn words, but have no way of stringing them together into sentences. a human raised by animals is in essence simply that... an animal. of course this then raises the dilemma of how exactly we have been able to rise above the level of animals when it is not a fundamental part of our nature to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 sure they do. but the child raised by animals would probably want to procreate with what he considers a part of his/her accepted community. and "civilized" humans aren't exactly part of that accepted circle. does that mean to say that there isnt any discrimination between animals?? i mean surely survival of the fittest demonstrates this... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 i think u're getting confused tj. animals mate with their own species... but a feral child (or indeed any animal adopted by members of another species) become part of that adopted community. thereby sukhi's original assertion... not that anything would come of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 yeah i get what both of u are saying, bt what im saying is that....we in our lives discriminate enuff as it is, we judge oh hes good looking, shes ugly etc etc....wouldnt that generally happen with animals aswell...its not like there arent humans out there who dnt ever get married....or have kids....im jus thinkin...doesnt that kinda apply to animals aswell... Picking a partner is instinctive isnt it....what we personally find attractive....why wud it be any different for animals... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Picking a partner is instinctive isnt it....what we personally find attractive....why wud it be any different for animals... afaik for animals picking a propective partner is pure instinct, but for humans there are many more variables to consider. i don't understand what point u are trying to make though, or what it has to do with the topic... :? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 well i dunno, ive gone off on a bit of a tangent, i guess im tryin to figure out how the human mind wud exist in an animal world..would it realise that it can grow beyond its surroundings...jus like we kno or believe that we can grow beyond this perception of life... i dunno...im jus thinkin out aloud really... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 i guess im tryin to figure out how the human mind wud exist in an animal world..would it realise that it can grow beyond its surroundings according to the documentary & the research done on feral children, it would appear that the answer is no. to paraphrase 'the truman show', "we accept the reality of the world with which we are faced." how can we have a realisation of something beyond our sphere of existence unless it is something innate in our nature... something we are born with. the inability of feral children to grasp the finer points of language suggests that higher thought processes are not inherent to us, but have to be 'learnt' (that is based on the assumption that language is essential to 'human thinking'). those are my own thoughts based on just a couple of articles & a documentary... perhaps someone like tsingh could add more. but this does raise the question of how we have raised our awareness to a stage of self-consciousness... which is something i mentioned earlier... a human raised by animals is in essence simply that... an animal. of course this then raises the dilemma of how exactly we have been able to rise above the level of animals when it is not a fundamental part of our nature to do so. jus like we kno or believe that we can grow beyond this perception of life... another question is, on a spiritual level, are we inherently aware or capable of discerning the true nature of reality (achieving realisation), or is this only possible through the teachings of a guru/teacher? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 ouuu... guvducky... you've been askin real good questions all along... how do you do it?! lol... j/k... drummer boy, i think what you're gettin at is the fact that other animals wouldn't accept the human child as one of their own and wouldn't mate with him/her. this may be possible. but if the human child has been raised by those animals and is now part of the animal community, he/she probably has his/her own role in it and would probably find a mate according to that. guvducky, self-consciousness or awareness isn't unique to human beings. research on other primates (particulary chimpanzees) has shown that they are self-aware and can recognize themselves in a mirror. the difference may be that they aren't AS self-aware as we are. but they ARE self-conscious/aware. as for higher level thoughts... it seems that our massive forebrain has been attributed with giving us the capacity for "higher" thoughts. most animals have forebrains, but none seems to have one as advanced as ours. and it just so happens that language skills are associated with the forebrain. so i'm guessing that our higher, complex thoughts, linguistic abilities and forebrain are all related to your query of why we humans have been able to rise above the level of animals. what's interesting though, is that it took us a couple million years to figure out how to use the goddamn brain for ourselves. i'm not sure how accurate i am when i say this, but i think that we require the guidance of a guru to "achieve realisation". think about it along the same lines of the feral child. let's suppose that we're all itty bitty babies, new to the world. without proper guidance, we'll become like those feral children spiritually. without guidance, we won't know how to speak or behave like "civlized" people and will become more animal-like in our behaviour and thoughts. but if we have someone who'll teach us "the alphabet" and our "numbers" among other things, we'll grow to be wise. does that make sense somewhat? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 but i think that we require the guidance of a guru to "achieve realisation". yeah that makes sense...because everythin that we have achieved up to this point has required us to learn something new from anyone...like how to drive, u need an instructor...to read...we went to pre school and mum taught us etc... even with spirituality....guruji says that so niguraa jo mar mar janmai nigurae aavan jaavaniaa One who has no Guru, dies over and over again, only to be re-born. One who has no Guru continues coming and going in reincarnation. jio niguraa bahu baathaa jaanai ouhu har dharageh hai bhrasattee Like the person who has no Guru, they may know many things, but they are cursed in the Court of the Lord. does that make sense somewhat? makes total sense sukhi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 but i think that we require the guidance of a guru to "achieve realisation". yeah that makes sense...because everythin that we have achieved up to this point has required us to learn something new from anyone...like how to drive, u need an instructor...to read...we went to pre school and mum taught us etc... even with spirituality....guruji says that so niguraa jo mar mar janmai nigurae aavan jaavaniaa One who has no Guru, dies over and over again, only to be re-born. One who has no Guru continues coming and going in reincarnation. jio niguraa bahu baathaa jaanai ouhu har dharageh hai bhrasattee Like the person who has no Guru, they may know many things, but they are cursed in the Court of the Lord. does that make sense somewhat? makes total sense sukhi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 ouuu... guvducky... you've been askin real good questions all along... how do you do it?! 8) guvducky, self-consciousness or awareness isn't unique to human beings. research on other primates (particulary chimpanzees) has shown that they are self-aware and can recognize themselves in a mirror. the difference may be that they aren't AS self-aware as we are. but they ARE self-conscious/aware. perhaps self-conscious wasn't the right term. dolphins can also recognise themselves in mirrors. what i mean is that we as humans can through careful introspection analyse our very thought patterns & change them. we can think beyond what our 5 senses are telling us... giving us culture, music & the arts. now whether any animals have the ability to do the same is a matter up for debate. certainly none have so far created their own culture. just remembered something else which reiterates my point regarding feral children. we have existed as homo sapiens on this planet for 200,000 years, yet there is no evidence of any culture/arts for the first 150,000 years of that time. it is in the last 50,000 years that all the civilisations of mankind have been created. what was it that happened 50,000 years ago that triggered this explosion of abilities? some believe that it is because that is when humans first left the confines of the small region of north east africa where they resided. of course it could also be argued that it was an ability to question beyond what was accepted that encouraged humans to go out & explore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 is it possible that we gained the ability to "grow" because we somehow became aware of "self"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 then in an animal environment wud we grow beyond it...wud we be aware of self??(conscience) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 is it possible that we gained the ability to "grow" because we somehow became aware of "self"? what do u mean by "self"? aware of ourselves as thinking individuals or aware of ourselves as something beyond the physical? also... it does not explain why we existed in this form for 150,000 years without "growing". then in an animal environment wud we grow beyond it...wud we be aware of self??(conscience) as i said before, i doubt it... due to the fact that we existed for so long as homo sapiens with no evidence of the development of complex language. it appears that just as we need a spiritual guru to realise the true nature of existence, we also need a language guru to access higher order brain functions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 evolution theory fails here then....who taught the 1st man to talk or construct language?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 evolution theory fails here then....who taught the 1st man to talk or construct language?? finally!!!!! u get what i've been talking about... that's the question i asked about 15 posts back... of course this then raises the dilemma of how exactly we have been able to rise above the level of animals when it is not a fundamental part of our nature to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 genuine chance? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Singh Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 random accidents is what i'm thinking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 so u guys think that chance or random accidents are what gave rise to complex language? imho, i reckon it had to do with something to do with a drastic change in the environment/surroundings, which lead to our ancestors having to fundamentally adapt to survive. for example having to learn to trade with other tribes to get what they needed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 hmmm... intermeresting... wanna expand on that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 16, 2005 Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 er... that was about it!... just that a change in circumstances meant that humans had to adapt very quickly, having to rely on each other & so social interactions in order to survive. those circumstances could be sudden climatic change, disease, over-hunting leading to lack of food, competition from another species, overcrowding, migration etc. one example of what i'm talking about is if the humans had to move out of africa to milder climates where the wearing of animal skins was vital to survival. some tribes may have lived near the coasts where fishing would bring them plentiful food, but a lack of larger animals meant they had no access to clothing. other tribes may have ventured further inland, where larger animals provided them with clothing but not a constant supply of food especiallly during the winter months. the two sets of tribes would therefore need to rely on each other to survive. the new complex social interaction of trade may have jump-started the emergence of complex language. that is just a hypothesis i've come up with... but it's the one that makes most sense to me at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2005 you know... that makes sense... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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