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Gay and lesbians in sikhism


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what you guys think about this issue???

This issue has been through loads of time in camps but no solution..

any verses from gurbani that proves gay and lesbians are non-ethical and should be extradicted from sikhism??

what about gay and lesbian marriages??

i just cant imagine gays and lesbians gettin married in gurdwara... in this kalyug... but who knows????

i m netural in this issue....but like to know ur views...please discuss

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ironically this issue could be solved very easily if peeps like SGPC were a little more liberal...but i mean liberal with works such as hakayat and triya charitrer in the dasam granth.

triya charitrer (i think im spelling it wrong, the 404 stories of women) talks about most issues related to this kind of stuff but the sgpc say it is not gurus bani because it is too "obscene". people forget what the aim of this epic writing actually is - to educate people on how this kind of stuff is WRONG.....a growing problem in sikhism is teens having premarital sex....if they read triya charitrer they would see exactly WHY they shouldnt.

anyway, ill stop ranting lol. in triya charitrer i believe guruji classes homosexuality in the same catagory as incest etc, its unnatural and ethically wrong, but theres no quranic draconian laws like KILL THE GAYS or anything like that. anand karaj should definately NOT be for gay people, and they should learn to subdue their kaam, in my opinion.

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Dear brothers KS and Nitrogen trioxide (NO3 = N + 3O) :),

The fact is that queers are not queers out of choice but because they are born that way, this is a result of a genetic disorder which causes men to have female sexual preferences and women to have male sexual preferences, this is not an opinion, but a scientific fact. The best way to deal with this is allowing them to have a sex change to the opposite sex thus solving this disgusting problem. Thus queer men will become normal heterosexual women and queer women will become normal heterosexual men. This is the best we can do as this is all current technology allows, however, in the near future, we may be able to genetically alter or remove the defective genes and make them normal heterosexuals again! :) Until then, sex change operations must be encouraged. As much as I find queerness to be absolutely disgusting, one must be a good Sikh and not harm these people. It is not their fault... Pedophiles however, must be castrated until they can be genetically altered. This is the best way to deal with such matters...

WJKK WJKF,

Kind Regards,

MI

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ironically this issue could be solved very easily if peeps like SGPC were a little more liberal...but i mean liberal with works such as hakayat and triya charitrer in the dasam granth.

triya charitrer (i think im spelling it wrong, the 404 stories of women) talks about most issues related to this kind of stuff but the sgpc say it is not gurus bani because it is too "obscene". people forget what the aim of this epic writing actually is - to educate people on how this kind of stuff is WRONG.....a growing problem in sikhism is teens having premarital sex....if they read triya charitrer they would see exactly WHY they shouldnt.

anyway, ill stop ranting lol. in triya charitrer i believe guruji classes homosexuality in the same catagory as incest etc, its unnatural and ethically wrong, but theres no quranic draconian laws like KILL THE GAYS or anything like that. anand karaj should definately NOT be for gay people, and they should learn to subdue their kaam, in my opinion.

uh No..I don't agree wiv u...

queers are queers, and cannot be sikh, it is'nt natural, god made 2 sexes for a reason, its sick!

marriage is the merger of man and woman not jack and john

PERSONALLY I AGREE WITH U.-...ITS DISGUSTING ETC:_..Though IF SIKHISM TEACHES EQUILITY...THEN THey should not be discriminated

hmm....THough it is ttrue that IF God wanted us 2 Be HOmos

4 those beliveing in the Adam & Eve theory..

as Mr Mr GABROO KHALISTAN DAH Said,..

GoD didn't make

John and Paul......

or Eve and Carol or sumthin like that :S

agrument :

1) HIV is belived to originate from Homosexuals (gays).......

some people take this as a "Warning" from GOd..Some say its simply against nature..

I think Its REALLY Disgusting...But i dont have n e tihng against Hommo as Long as they dont..."try flurting or sumthin on me :S"

lol

SO honeslty I dunnu what to belive..coz....There is a for- and against argument....

EQUILITY..=4 the HOmos...

ADAM AND EVE + HIV = AGAINST

//BHulla CHokka maaf

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Look, if a brother and sister wanted Anand Karaj would u allow it?

What about Mother and Son?

But if you dont allow it, that isnt equality right?

Come on. If your gay, supress it.

Guruji has classed it with incest. WRONG. W R O N G. if you want to disagree with him, then go ahead.....but why not disagree on some other stuff while your at it!

And what dont u agree with me on Triya Charitrer? Do u disagree with it?

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Khalsa Soulja

Can you please provide evidence from Treh Charittar to back up your claims? (Please quote the entire shabad if possible).

true said

and is possible the page number ?

hmm...I never said I was against what Guru JI WRote in Treh Charittar

but IF THAT IS THE CAse.then it kinda contreverses itself doen't it?

and also keep in mind that Some Shabads has also been Editd according to Hindu regulations..By Hindus....

.we dont know!!!

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  • 2 weeks later...

SGGS is not gender biased in anyway. A human can spent centuries of centuires interpreting gurbani in their way. Attempts after Attempts but still can not prove that SGGS is biased towards any being.

If you cant see god in all, you cant see god at all (SGGS)

Sab meh jot, jot hai so-ay. Tis dai chaanan sabh men channan ho-ay (Kirtan Sohila)

The Light (Life, Soul, God awareness) within everyone, You are that light.

By that light(god), there is the light (Soul, God awareness) in all.

As for the concern about lust

look at the lust first. The 5 chors in every being has can be controlled and maintained but can not be destroyed and eliminated. Only way you can destroy 5 chors if you are sant/bhramgyani/mahapursh.

Any singh/singhne who has taken amrit doesnt become a bhramgyani. But any saint is definately a singh/singhne.

Now there is something called anand karag. If we allowed that as sikhi scriptures doesnt allow any kinda hate towards gender. It can be useful in enormnous ways-

1. It will benefit for the gay and lesbian to come forward and keep themselves in this free environment

2. Sikhi will be the first relegion for accepting gays and lesbians through sikh scriptures. There would enrmonous publicity about it. (SINCE TRUST ME EVERY OTHER FOLLOWER OF THE RELEGION IS LOOKIN FOR EQUALITY AND LOGICAL IN THE RELEGION) SIKHI GOT ALL OF EM. Thats why you see loads of converts from christianity, hinduism. Two major relegions.

3. Gays and Lesbians from other relegions (IE- Christians gays and lesbians) would be accepted and attracted towards sikhism because their relegion doesnt allow homosexuality.

All i can say if sikhi was given to whites or blacks our relegion wont be plaqued with narrow minded people as if have now.

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If gay anand karaj was allowed i would convert to islam.

i cant give a page no for triyah charitrer cuz i actually havent read it myself lol, but i am 100percent sure its in the same catagory of incest...

so say if someone was attracted to their sister....would you allow them to have anand karaj....for the sake of "liberalism" and attracting more people?

set fire 2 de chichimon

lol joking

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Khalsa soujla in this section of debate we dont need ur personal hate against them.

Why dont bring proves from chitar(as you claim)?

You been asked once by Narsingha now you have been asked twice??

So dont sing it bring it :D

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we are meant to control our kaam - lust... how are gays and lesbians controlling their kaam?? if anything they have lost control of it...

and then they say "oh sikhism preaches equality"... yes it does... i accept that .. but how many of em follow the other teaches of sikhi??.. i doubt any of them do.. they use the equality "wildcard" as an excuse... lust is a sin - kaam rules them... sex before marraige is also a sin in sikhi - i doubt that they know about that... i guess that wud ruin their "arguement".. u cannot pick and mix - u cannot say that oh i wanna follow this bit but not that bit....

im sorry but its unatural.. and khalsa souljah is right - u wudnt allow a brother and sister to get married, in this same way its unatural too....

i accept the fact that people are different... but i wudnt hate them or judge them for that .. but i dont agree with their marriage....

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Khalsa soujla in this section of debate we dont need ur personal hate against them.

Why dont bring proves from chitar(as you claim)?

You been asked once by Narsingha now you have been asked twice??

So dont sing it bring it :D

like i said i havent got a reference.

but i heard it once of a reliable person, and i think it was mentioned on sarbloh.info, but im not sure how or where.

guys, its common sense. if a man fancies another man, there is something wrong. the ying yang balance is wrong. then its yang yang. sikhi cannot condone such things. call me homophobic, but theres a gay person at my school and i always feel a bit nervous around him :oops:

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Well you guys might not find a direct quote but you might see it in the reasoning that sex in Sikhi is only for procreation. Gay sex is to fulfil desires.

Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh, and Ahankar are the 5 evils. These are to be avoided at all costs. Bani says these evils will keep us from naam, keep us from sachkhand and guru jee.

Sex is only for procreation although it is mentioned indirectly. However, This is not reinforced as it is reinforced in Hindu Sannyasa that a person would either be a brahmacharya or a have sex only for reproduction on a strict basis !

Talking about gays. I dont think Sikhi will promote Gay-Sex even though it is not mentioned in Gurbani. Here we just have to use our common-sense and Sikhi is not based on religious rules :- "This is allowed and that is not allowed".

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And how does one attain that state? How can we be sure that the 'sexual orientation' is as innoccous as 'left handedness'?

Till the early 1970s, homosexuality was regarded as a psychological disorder by the American Psychological Association(APA). At that time, bereft of any scientific reasons and solely driven by lobbying efforts of the gay groups, the APA dropped homosexuality from its list of psychological disorders. And as we have seen in the last half century in the US, altering public opinion isn't a very complex task provided some group or the other is really determined to do so. This is what happened with homosexuality which evolved from a disorder in the 1970s to its present state of a natural phenomenon.

http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

The jury is still out on this but new advances in science suggest that sexual orientation is not something that a person has a choice in.

The famous 'gay gene' died an untimely death despite the attempts of several groups to keep it alive by the stimulatory effects of misinformation campaigns. Homosexuality could at best be partially due to genetic reasons. Check out the following links for more information on this:

http://www.narth.com/docs/fading.html

Here's a very signficant excerpt:

When "gay gene" researcher Dr. Dean Hamer was asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, he replied:

"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."

http://www.narth.com/docs/bornway.html

The questions that then arises is:

Since it is known with absolute certainity that homosexuality is due NOT to solely genetic factors, how does that change the opinion of those asking for acceptability of this disorder in Sikhi?

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This is my last post to this discussion and it was written by satnam singh.

<<< Cutting and pasting it here to make it more clear for all of you >>>

Homosexuality falls under 'kaam' LUST, which our Gurus have stressed to avoid.Our holy Gurbani ji clearly explains 'kaam' in detail.Again the only acceptable matter is that of a husband and wife (after marriage).

Being gay is not normal or is ever defined normal in any faith for that matter!

GOD created man for a woman and vice versa. we can come up with many theories or ways to accept such persons. But Waheguru ji has denied it already!!

And gay history should be of no concern to us.

Sikhism has had many struggles, many hardships, many problems, our Gurus were tortured, jailed, punished, humiliated, executed etc. All for the sake of 'truth'. TO preach the right way and the truth. And it is shocking to see many Sikhs accepting such anti-GOD activity as Homosexuals!!

Amongst the many other problems. Ask yourself - What would I Guru ji say if he was here??

Many consider homosexuals as threat because our future will be destroyed. Our childrens minds polluted and perverted. They would think it's ok be gay aswell!

So you see there is more of disadvantage than any benefit.

Please ask your self (if gays are accepted);

You goto celebrate Baisakhi and you see two guys holding hands (gays).

What would you do? Would you not feel shame? what about the children?

* There are priests living in the Gurdwara...gay amongst them ...

Wouldn't they be involved in gay activities inside a holy place?

* Wouldnt children be afraid of learning kirtan if gay teachers taught them?

Would you send your son knowing they are gay?

Wouldnt many persons be afraid to be alone with a giani...

In fear that they maybe be molested such as the vicars in UK admitted??

What about if gays wanted to be married?

We would then have to alter the 'Lavaan', the Sikh scriptures, so that it fits to husband for husband or female for female.

Guru Gobind ji condemned gays would anyone say his holiness is wrong?

What about Kaam? wouldnt other persons such as pedophiles wanted equal acceptance? In the B.C. Canada , one person is able to keep such anti-GOD material, as it violated his freedom of rights!

source: Click here

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exactly....

i cant really believe im seeing this?!?!?

come on people....this isnt racism as that is discriminating between a race...

sex's primary function is for procreation....

unless im mistaken and gay people can have babies, then its definately wrong!!wake up people, eqality is only for natural differences....e.g race, gender etc...

whichever singh said that its a contradiction should realise there are no contradictions....but homosexuality isnt natural and will never be recognised by the panth...

and neo....the way to bring ppl to sikhi isnt thru saying "we accept gays so come here"

that not gonna get us true sikhs. id rather have 5 proper god loving sikhs than 100 idiots who only come because they wont get harassed.

and khalsa souljah...is your faith in sikhi so weak, that you would give it up because you of someone elses beliefs....

you were sayin before bout takin amrit...think long and hard if you are ready for the gurus path as your faith needs 2 be a lot stronger than that.

HOMOSEXUALITY= LUST .

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Is it not only the body that contains the sex

the atma is the same in all.

So therefore it shouldn't matter if you are gay or lesbian.

(now the joking part of the meg is here, so pls people learn to laugh so you dont take offense)

BUT.... if you want a family, its a bit hard for a man to get pregnant, so lesbians are Ok.

We all should become Lesbians. Joke.

If some is happy bonking the same sex, who cares.

Were not doing it.

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Gurfateh

its funny how people can call themselves Sikhs and still use offensive language like 'queer, paki etc.'.

if you're not homosexual fine; but don't hate other people for it. Bhagat Kabir Sahib says:

Where i am, You are not. Where You are, i am not.

now if we're meant to lose our ego in order to meet Vaahiguru then it seems we will have to leave behind all such petty arguments and 'hates' - WAY BEFORE we even get near such a spiritual concept...a spiritual concept that must be turned into a living reality otherwise its useless. Guru Ji says:

Truth is the Highest Virtue; higher still is Truthful Living.

personally, reflecting within myself, i think that sex between myself and another male would not be positive spiritually...just like overindulgence in it by myself and my wife would not be conducive, spiritually-speaking.

however that doesn't mean that i am going to hate gay people who practise different forms of sex and married couples who are overindulgent in bed!

how can i hate when Vaahiguru's Jyot resides in all regardless of their sexual behaviour...and even more so, their general behaviour?

how can i use words that will hurt their heart. Bhagat Fareed Sahib says:

If you wish to meet your Beloved do not hurt the heart of others because they are precious jewels...your Beloved resides in the hearts of others.

how dare we say such hurtful things to people when Vaahiguru resides within their heart; i see no sub-clause in Guru's statement saying: ps this doesn't apply if you're gay (!!!)

moving on from that point, the 'its against nature/adam and eve not adam and steve' argument is simply wrong; because homosexual behaviour is often found amongst many animal species. we can call it abnormal but then you're stuck in the same trap...the "judgement of others trap".

don't fall for Maya's trap...these traps are all around you everywhere and even more so, lying around in your mind waiting to spring when you least expect them...

through the practise of Bibek (Vivek/discrimination), practise that Rehat/conduct/lifestyle that you PERSONALLY feel is most positive...and it will shine like a beacion through Guru's Infinite Kirpa...

but whatever you do, DO NOT lose your spiritual earnings by turning that practise of Bibek back outwards and judging others with your new found yardsticks...its not for no reason that we are told that the Guru's path is finer than a hair and sharper than a double edged sword.

turns these judgmental eyes inward and realise what Bhagat Kabir Sahib means when he says:

Those who see themselves as the worst person are my friends.

Sikhi = Unconditional Love - NO MATTER WHAT

just some limited thoughts.

Gurfateh

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Gurfateh

For No group Singh who stated that homosexuality used to be a psychological disorder but now has, mistakenly, become acceptable.

Perhaps you need to read up a little.

Historically there was another definite, proven psychological disorder (in DSM-1 probably), that was also later dropped from the accepted list of psychological disorders, also 'without any scientific reasons'.

It was a condition that was found amongst U.S black slaves in which they developed 'strange' thought patterns and would try to escape from their white 'master'(caled drapetomania)...guess what the course of treatment was? A good whipping! And that isn't made up.

Furthermore, Dr. Samuel Cartwright, from Louisiana Medical Association investigated the 'strange behaviour' of African slaves. He reported on numerous 'diseases and physical peculiarities of the negro race'. One was a sensory disease which made African Americans insensitive to 'pain when being punished'!! How convenient.

The historical classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder is used by thousands of psychology A-level students every year as an example of the failure of the definition of abnormality by social norms.

Also you should be aware that there are psychologists out there as well who have years of research behind them and proof to show that black people (including asians) are less intelligent than white people. Go figure.

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