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Interesting debate on sikhe.com regarding Nirmaley

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Basically I save this debate long time ago. I thought i lost but I was going through my inbox today finally found it. I hope lalleshvari veer does not mind that i m posting this (if he does please send me pm, i ll remove this thread). I feel knowledge is for everyone.

Lalleshvari repond to singh2 on Nirmalas.


It is your right to disagree with my comment but it is unacceptable from your part to doubt Maharaj's intentions. Before writing his Varan Bhai Gurdas had to receive training in Benares, Bhai Mani Singh received his training from the first Nirmalas who were sent to Benares by Guru Gobind Singh. All the great Sikh scholars of pre-SGPC times were able to produce remarquable intellectual work due to their training. Try to find a Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale amongst those new nakli scholars. By the way this is NOT BRAHMANICAL AT ALL for if it was brahmanical it would be birth that decides who becomes a scholar. SIKHI BELIEVES IN MERITOCRACY not in teach yourself Gurbani in two months!!!!! Nirmalas made education free and available for all unlike the Brahmins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You have insulted the Nirmala sampradaya by calling Nirmale "masands". We Nirmalas have spread Sikhi throughout India and we actively participated in the anti-British movement as well as the Singh Sabha movement at the time where the Lahore Singh Sabha did not even exist. Bhai Maharaj Singh Nirmala beat the British in 1849 (long before the Indian Mutiny) and led the Sikh resistance against the British before he got betrailed. Sant Attar Singh Mastuanavale was a Nirmala himself. Whilst "Giani" Ditt Singh (himself an ex-Arya Samaji and ex-Gulabdasi) was still performing brahmanical rituals with Swami Dayananda and the Arya Samaj, it was Sant Nihal Singh Thoha Khalsa who beat Dayananda during public debates in Amritsar. Your comments on Nirmalas and Udasis (legitimate orders created by Maharaj himsekf) are disgustingand unacceptable. If you believe that scholars are not needed in Sikhi I suggest you invent time travel and change Sikh history. Utterly disgusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllllllll BIR RAS DE NAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


singh2 response to lalleshvari

I have not much knowledge about nirmalas but i do believe they did a lot of good work in spreading sikhi to different parts of India.Any organisation that spreads sikhi is praiseworthy.It is nonsense to bad mouth any sikh organisation out of phobiac thinking.

Nirmalas are clssified as Sikhs.

Bhai shib i know they did good work in the field of education. Migit scholars may not anything about them.Please don't feel bad.I have a question for you. Was Sant Nischal Singh ji of Yamuna Nagar was also a nirmala.I know he did a little of work in education field in that area.


lalleshvari respond to singh2

To Singh2


On Sant Niscal Singh of Yamuna Nagar I will check, if you have any questions on Nirmale or puratan sampradayas here is my email lalleshvari108@hotmail.com

pyar de nal

Bahadar Singh Nirmala

Gur Bar Akal


singhnew to lalleshvari

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Bhai Sahib Ji, I heard about the spread of Sikhi by Nirmalas. But when I traversed the breadth of India. I didn’t find the spread anywhere. The Sikh that I met in towns and streets were of Punjabi origin and didn’t see masses in UP, Bihar, W. Bengal, MP, Maharashtra and Rajisthan following Sikhi. There were a few Sikhs of local origin in Hazoor Sahib and some one told me that they were the offspring of Sikhs that came with Sache Patshah Guru Gobind Singh Ji and stayed behind after the Great Master left this world. These Sikhs married local people and that’s how they stayed Sikh. There is some work going on by local Sikh Sangat in various parts of India.

The Sikligar and Vanjaaras about whom we have read in recent years have no knowledge of Guru Sahiban after the Sixth Master Sacha Patshah Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib. So I don’t see any relationship of Nirmalas filling their duty if they claim so, given to them by the tenth Master Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Preaching to Choir is nothing new.

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave us Sri Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru and there is no need for any clergy to interpret it, as it is so beautiful and simple to understand. But I think the problem comes for clergy who will be unemployed once the masses realize how easy it is and that what I think is prompting protection of the turf by interested parties.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Gurbhajan Singh


singh2 response to lalleshvari

bhai sahib ji

I don't know if you are knowing or not but nirmalas have done a lot of work for sikhi in the states of Bihar and UP.I came across a post once that i will post for your reference on this topic.

They were posted at benares by Guru ji to acquire Vedic knowledge and learn sanskrit so that while on missionary activities they can argue effectively and counter knowledge of brahmins to avoid pitfalls.

Also once there was a chief minister of Maharashtra VP naik.he wrote that while he was a kid, he remembers going to Nanded to pay respects at Gurdwara because his parents were believing in sikhi.But it has not been followed up by sikhs later and these people have gone back to hindu religion.


lalleshvari to singhnew


Dear Gurbhajan Singh,

Nirmalas have first of all concentrated their activity in Sindh where they converted a lot of people to Sikhi. If you haven't seen masses of Sikhs outside of Panjab it's because the Nirmala order has been marginalised by the Lahore Singh Sabha and the Akalis who seized their deras trying to destroy their activity. When the Nirmala sampradaya comes back to life from Hazur Sahib to Patna you will see Sikhs everywhere as people are thirsting for Sikhi!!!

Guru Granth Sahib is far from simple to understand and one does need knowldege to interpret it as there are many passages in Marathi, Sahaskriti, Braj etc... If you pretend to be able to understand these passages without training then I suggest you try to be in the next XMen 3. Sikhi was born in a highly refined and elite atmosphere but the Gurus wanted to bring that elite culture to everyone. Nirmalas are simple people, mostly Jats and are far from being elitists. We believe that everyone has the right to have a high quality and classical education. Modern Sikhs owe a lot to the Nirmalas but it seems that only the lazy underdogs don't like Nirmalas. Before you criticise Nirmalas or Udasis get the same level of education!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I doubt you are fit for that challenge!!!!!



Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll


singhnew to laleshvari

Bhai Sahib Jio,

As from your explanation that Sindh was the only area of concentration for Nirmalas and then blaming Akalis for disruption. It means that

a) Nirmalas were not up to the Job for the rest of the Indian Subcontinent.

B) As every knows that in the beginning the Akali movement wanted to correct the Brahaminical influences in the Sikhi. So that means that Nirmalas were practicing those rituals.

c) From your statement you wanted to prove that Gurbani is elitist, which I disagree wholeheartedly as I was able to understand by reading the “Steek”(description) from various sources including Prof. Sahib Singh’s volumes.

d) Only thing I can agree with you is that any one who need to understand Guru Granth Sahib need to spend some time.

Rest Bhai Sahib, I grew up close to Udasi Deras and used to go to that place every occasion I could. The Aarti they do with lighted lamps in front of Guru Granth Sahib may seem beautiful to a child or an ignorant but once a person start understanding the real meaning of Aarti then it seems silly to do something while chanting something that means exactly opposite. They also perform ardaas with the name of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Baba Sri Chand and Baba Gurdita and no mention of any other Guru Sahiban. So don’t feel offended if the criticism comes from someone who has seen things real close.

I want to do a closure as we have our own set of views and I am not forcing mine on you and you stop doing that and let go the ego that your viewpoint is the only valid one.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Gurbhajan Singh


lalleshvari to gurbhajan singh-


Bhai Sahib Jio,

I am in no way trying to impose my points of view but I am correcting wrong views and facts on the Nirmalas!!! I am a Sikh of the Nirmala Sampradaya and I don't have to justify myself for that. My order was written most of SIkh literature in the 18th and 19th centuries and has beaten the British (Bhai Maharaj Singh 1849 Chehanvala battle) well before the Indian Mutiny, The Ghadar Movement or the Akali Movement. I am a scholar and that's how I serve Maharaj.

1.Nirmalas were present in most of Northern India but when when an order missionises it tends to concentrate on a particular region at a time instead of diluting all its forces everywhere. Focuss is primordial!!!

2. Brahmanical practices can only be termed as such if they are practiced by Brahmins. The notion of Hinduism is an invention of the British Raj. Doing arti in front of Maharaj is a sign of respect shown to kings. If "Hindus" do it in front of idols that's their problem!!! Nirmalas are not Hindus and in fact I believe that there is no such thing as Hinduism.It is precisely to avoid Brahmanism that the Nirmala maryada sates that the head of the order HAS TO BE A JATT: WHERE ARE THE BRAHMINS THEN?????????????

3. Nirmalas played an important role in the Singh Sabha movement as it is well known. The first head Granthi of Harimandir Sahib under the SGPC was Mahant Mul Singh. Many Nirmalas went to prison during the Singh Sabha movement and helped implement the Anand Karaj mariage. The Singh Sabha and the Akali movement are two different things (see Bhagat Lachman Singh's Autobiography).It is the Akalis who started creating trouble between Nirmalas and the SGPC. It is a known fact that Akalis were mainly inspired by Protestantism, which does not believe that knowledge is necessary for exegesis.

4. You talk about Prof Sahib "satik" commentaries. he himself was a scholar of Sanskrit (see Taran Singh's Gurbani dian Viakhian Parnalian). In this you are just the reader of his "sateek" and HE IS THE ONE who interprets it for you. He is the one who understood it first for you. Even then he needed Sanskrit as it shapes your mind for grammatical understanding.

5. The Udasi maryada is extremely old. The arti arta which is practiced by all puratan sampradayas is a sign of respect offered to Kings and in this case Guru Granth Sahib. It is not a child's game at all. Patna Sahib and Hazur Sahib still practice the original maryadas. This has nothing to do with Hinduism as Hinduism does not exist. It is a construct from the British period. The Prophet Muhammad received the Quran from Gabriel (an angel quoted in the Gospels) does that make him a Christian? NO. In the same way Nirmalas are not Hindus but SIKHS. The text of the arti arta is taken from Adi Granth and Dasam Granth. You can find it in the Nihang gutka. You are only refering to the arti (shant ras) of Guru Nanak without taking into account the arta (bir ras) of Guru Gobind Singh ji. You can definitely not say that Nihangs are brahmanical as there are no Brahmins among them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

6. I never said Gurbani was ' elitist' but I said it was born in an elite culture. The aim of the Gurus was to educate people to the level of that culture. Maharaj wanted ELITE CULTURE AVAILABLE TO ALL.

7. How can you fight Brahmanism if you don't know Sanskri?. Nirmalas beat the Brahmins on many occasions and proved the superiority of Sikhi. Read Sant Gulab Singh's Mokh Panth Prakash and how he was persecuted by brahmins for making Ramayana and Mahabharata available to lay people.

The puratan sampradayas were created by the Gurus. Who soever slanders them is either ignorant or a manmukh. It is true that some aspects of some sampradayas have to change but this does not mean that they were un-Sikh in fact they were and are the very orthodoxy of Sikhi.

Baba Teja Singh (a well-respected Nirmala Sikh) comments: ‘From 15th century in that time the [Adi] Guru Granth was composed. At that time, the four religious way’s that were existent. There was Gur Matt [sikh Guru’s thinking] in the Punjab, Bhagti Marg [Way of devotion] in South of India, Sufism in the west around Multan, and Vedant which was through out India. Those who believe in Vedas are to be found through out India. These four religious ways deal with one same subject. Bhagti Marg, Sufism, Gurmat and Vedant basically stand on one platform. Alright, I possess knowledge of Vedant. People will say that he speaks Gurbani [Guru’s word which is Dharma] in the manner of Vedant. If Someone is more versed in knowledge of Sufism, he will speak [Guru’s word] in a Sufi manner. If some one has interest in Bhagti Marg studies it he will talk in that manner [Guru’s word]. Some will speak of it [Dharma] in manner of Sikhism. According to each other’s religious learning they speak. But, in terms of foundation, when we look at the four religious ways, their principles are basically one. To have faith in God and to see God in all, this is their subject.’

(Baba Teja Singh, transcript of a recording, 9-03-2001)

Hence Nirmala Scholars easily integrated with the scholars of other religions and philosophies. Nirmalas see themselves as true 'Sam Vadi' (Egalitarians) as opposed to 'Katar Vadi' (religious fanatics).

WE NIRMALAS ARE NOT KATAR PANTHIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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debate continuse...

singh2 to lalleshvari

Bhai sahib ji

A little query from me.

When you say that anand ceremony was started by Nirmalas.Are you saying that Baba Dayal ji of Rawalpindi was also a nirmala.I read that he was a Nirankari(Those Nirankaris are different from the present offshoot who had tiff with sikhs in 1978).

Dr Man Singh ji Nirankari is from their family.He writres a lot on sikhi.

The battle was at Chillianwala near Gujarat distt. in Pakistan now.Sikh forces were under the command of Sher Singh attariwala.Of course Bhai Maharaj Singh was one of the main commanders.Sikhs had defeated English in that battle.


lallehsvari to singh2


Bhai Dayal Singh Nirankari was not a Nirmala but it was the Nirmala dera of the Thakurian Nirmalas which allowed to show the Anand ceremony to the Sikh Panth for the first time in Amritsar. Thus they the Nirmalas helped in the strugglke for the recognition of the Anand Karaj.

There are two types of Nirankaris which people confuse very often: the Asli Nirankaris (those of Baba Dayal Singh who are Sikhs) based in Chandigarh today and the Nakli Nirankari (founded by Bhuta Singh) who are heretics excommunicated in 1978. A CURSE ON THE NAKLI NIRANKARIS AS THEY HAVE DONE (AND STILL DO) SO MUCH HARM TO THE PANTH.


lalleshvari to singh2 again


on a more humourous note Bhai Sahib, nothing prevents you from having the same knowledge as Nirmalas teach everyone for free as Guru Gobind Singh wanted but maybe you're not up for the effort and challenge. PAIN AND EFFORT ARE THE TUITION OF KNOWLEDGE.


Gur Bar Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllllll


mssingh504 to lalleshvari

Bahadar Singh Nirmala Ji

You have not read any thing which is written by Gurbakhsh Singh Kalaafghana. I know, why you are so upset with Gurbakhsh Singh, because he completely rejected the idea that Guru Gobind Singh sent Sikhs to Kashi to learn about what-ever. Here is his wrting about Nirmalas. (You can download by Right clicking and select Save Target As.)

I also request to the Sikhs that, to understand Anti Sikh forces, you must know the principles of Guru Granth Sahib. All 10 Guru Sahib has practically lived their life according to Guru Granth Sahib. No true Sikh ever can doubt the “kehani te karani” (saying & doing) of Guru Sahib. If you read the above link, you will agree with me that Guru Gobind Singh Ji never ever sent Sikhs to Kashi for learning, they themselves rejected the Kashi's education in Guru Granth Sahib. Do not believe everything, which comes across, “Every thing glitters, is not a Gold”.

I will appreciate you comments.

Guru Fateh.

Manjit Singh Sahota


lalleshvari to mssingh504


Dear Mr Sahotah

First of all, I have read Kala Afghana's writings as I am a Sikh scholar. From a strictly historical point of view they are absolute rubbish (to use an euphemism). His declaration that Guru Gobind Singh never sent Sikhs to Benares has no historical proof as all the historical sources point towars this fact. The first Nirmala establishement was created in 1710 by Sant Dargah Singh who accompanied Baba Binod Singh and Banda Bahadar to Panjab. All the historical records prove this.

Kala Afghana's books are guided by blind positivist populist ideology. I am personnaly no fan of the SGPC or the Sikh politicians but Kala Afghana is just the tip of the ice birg of a whole movement of pseudo-scholarship amongst the Sikh community which threatens the very cohesion of the Panth. Because of such people whole sections of Sikh heritage have been destroyed. The holy bani of Dasam Granth Darbar and Sarabloh Granth Darbar. In fact because of anti-Sikh forces even the Ragmala started being doubted as part of bani. LET ME REMIND EVERYONE HERE THAT ANYONE WHO DOUBTS ANY PART OF BANI LIKE RAGMALA IS A SINNER AND A TRAITOR TO MAHARAJ. ANYONE WHO SAYS THAT RAGMALA IS NOT BANI SHALL GET HIS FACE BLACKENED IN MAHARAJ'S DARBAR. IT IS THE DUTY OF NIRMALAS, DAMDAMI TAKSAL, NIHANG AND UDASIS TO DEFEND THE INTEGRITY OF BANI AGAINST ALL THE FORCES OF IGNORANCE WHO TRY TO DESTROY SIKHI FROM THE INSIDE. WE WILL DEFEND BANI WITH OUR SOUL AND OUR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



mssingh504 to lalleshvari

lalleshvari Ji

Can you explain as Sikh Scholar what you have written and published, so I can read & decide about your scholar nature.

Secondly I can clearly see that you are dodging the Shabads of Guru Granth Sahib which discard the notion of Nirmalas and “Parchine Panth Parkash” in which there is no hint about Nirmalas.

Thirdly Akhand Kirtini Jatha is the one, who is saying about Ragmala is not a part of Guru Granth Sahib and I agree with them. My reason of agreeing with them is this, in “Gurbilas Patshahi 6th” it is stressed that if someone do not read the Ragmala, then there is no use of reading the complete Guru Granth Sahib, only person will be blessed by Guru is when you read Ragmala with it. There is knowledge in the Ragmala.

Nirmalas & Udasis has no place in Sikh Panth, unless they abide by Gurmat principles i.e. no hair cut, no ‘bhang & afeem’ drugs, no Sri Mahant etc.

You have mentioned “NIRMALAS, DAMDAMI TAKSAL, NIHANG AND UDASIS”, which one you belong to?

Guru Fateh

Manjit Singh Sahota


lalleshvari to mssingh504

DEAR Sahota,

I am a Nirmala. Giani Gian Singh's Panth Prakash and Bhai Santokh Singh's Guru Pratap Suraj Granth will give the histor of the foundation of the Nirmalas. ALL NIRMALAS ARE KESHDHARI AND MOST ARE AMRITDHARI.




singh2 to lalleshvari

Bahadur singh ji

Please do not get upset.As already stated Nirmalas are a part of Sikh Panth.One has to read sikh history.

You have raised a very valid point.How can a person interpret Bani of Dasam Granth ji without having knowledge of Braj Bhasha,Persian and Sanskrit.

Folks let us be realistic.name calling will not help.


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Gur Fateh!

Thanks Veer N30 Singh for bringing this material up again –the good old days indeed. I have a few queries arising from the above points made both by Lalleshvari and others and hope the forum can help me with these.

1. I have heard much about Nirmala activity in Sindh, however would like to understand if the

“converted masses (from Sindh)â€
are in fact Sikhs? I have known a number of Sindhi families both in the UK, US and India, whilst they may attend the Gurdwara for family functions if invited or on Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s birthday, their main religious home remains the Mandir, of course they may include pictures of Guru Nanak Dev Ji in their mandirs, however they are not fond of Guru Gobind Singh’s philosophy, which is often quoted as being “Rulaee-Jhagra ka kaam†–perhaps this is indeed the impact of time on once-converted Sikhs, or people under the Sanatan-school of thought, still be classified as Sikhs (given the arguments presented by Nihang Niddar Singh at last year’s lectures).


“When the Nirmala sampradaya comes back to life from Hazur Sahib to Patna you will see Sikhs everywhere as people are thirsting for Sikhi!!!â€
Veer Narsingha and I once had a brief discussion on this forum on this point, I recall him mentioning that many amongst the Hazoori Singhs including Nihangs as well today actually view the Nirmalas with hostility, as being responsible for the pacification of the Sikhs and move away from Shasterdhari Khalsa towards the Sant Baba culture that is now so common. I would add to this that even history supports this anti-Nirmala view from the Hazoori Sangat, who would often term them “Na-milas†(i..e. not part of us –‘mila hoe’) and letters from Hazoor Sahib to Sikh institutions in Punjab terming them as such ridicule them for not adorning the kachhera of the Khalsa and instead wearing a dhoti.

3. NewSingh is not alone in his view that one can ‘teach yourself Sikhi’ because it is ‘simple’ and one can use a “Steekâ€, but surely the use of a Steek, like the much famed edition of Prof. Sahib Singh is no different to having spent time with Prof. Sahib Singh himself, just like any written word, vocal/audio recording aims to capture the information of the moment or source, however if we take this a step further, surely we can also therefore pull our kids out of school, for one can easily understand ‘worldly’ knowledge (given that this is clearly much simplier than spiritual knowledge) by simply reading a textbook, what’s the need for elitist teachers or professors? If this is the case, why do we have Sikh schools popping up everywhere? Why don’t Sikhs simply pull their kids from school and have them ‘taech themselves life’?

4. If Aarti with lamps is so so wrong because Guru Sahib in Raag Dhanasri says “the stars, lamps etc are your true aartiâ€, presumably this would mean that we should be consistent with our approach to Gurbani and also conclude that giving in charity, silent meditation, visiting Gurdwaras/Yatras, is wrong as per JapJi Sahib or that wearing bana and keeping kesh (i.e. a garb) is incorrect as per Akal Ustat and Gian Parbodh?


“Nirmalas played an important role in the Singh Sabha movement as it is well known. The first head Granthi of Harimandir Sahib under the SGPC was Mahant Mul Singh. Many Nirmalas went to prison during the Singh Sabha movement and helped implement the Anand Karaj marriageâ€
Please could our forum Nirmalas expand on what they believe constitutes the Anand Karaj marriage, as they have been critical together with the Nihangs of the present day Anand Karah ceremony.

6. Lalleshvari mentioned that Nihangs and Nirmalas are not brahmanical. One reason cited for this is that to become a Nihang or Nirmala is independent of one’s birth/family class/caste, however at the same time Veer Narsingha has previously shown support for the ‘only Khatris’ can head the Buddha Dal rule, the division of castes during the Amrit Sanchar of the Nihangs and indeed the separate commensality and existence of the ‘Chauta Paur’ Nihangs. Similarly Lalleshvari of the only Jats can head the Nirmala Akhara –please could we understand a little more about these practices and their differences from the thoughts of Brahmins.

7. Finally, we know from the writings of Gyani Gyan Singh that during the inception of the Namdhari Movement that they were accepted as part of the panth, although divergent on the one fundamental issue of Gurgaddi (and their Dastaars flying off when in Mast), however their contribution to the Panth was at the time greatly appreciated. It is interesting from the above that the main detractors of the Namdharis today are the very same people who today scream out against Raagmala and Dasam Bani and even the Amrit Sanchar ceremony itself, yet despite not believing in the Adi Granth as Guru Granth Sahib, Namdharis do respect greatly the bani of both the Seri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib without question. They do believe in the Amrit Sanchar ceremony and maintain much of the puritan maryada, particularly Sangeet. Interestingly however, Namdharis have never really physically come to clash with these largely modern day Sikh movements and Jathas, although they on several occasions have confrontations with Nihangs and Nirmalas in the past, yet it is the modern day Jathas who so vehemently hate them, despite themselves being guilty of insult to Gurbani.

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