Bhai Randhir Singh Ji

[Singh47]

Challenge everyting, your ignorance in Sikh history really surprises me. Do you not even know this much of Sikh history that a Ram Raiaa is a person who is a follower of Baba Ram Rai? Bhai Randhir Singh Jee was not a follower of Ram Rai then how the heck is he a Ram Raiaa? Please read a little bit of Sikh history from the period of the Gurus before surprising us with your ignorance.

[challenge_everything]

Why was Baba Raam Rae disowned from the panth. Becuase he twisted and denied the eternal words of Gurbani.

Literally Randhir Singh may not have idolised Ram Rae but he acted along the same terms disowning the baani

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear All,

Please continue with this discussion, again be it admiration or critical, however please refrain from allowing this to become another Raagmala debate, there is a formal one in existence and also plenty of other related treads.

For the record, it is acknowledged that the matter of Babu Teja Singh Bharausia and Raagmala, is "connected" with the life of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, the exact extent to which can be discussed and such as, it is not intended for this message to prevent references to such material, however please refrain from developing this into another solely raagmala argument.

Finally, as a reminder to all, whilst we encourage discussions on Sikh personalities be they Bhai Sahibs, Sants, Gyanis, Jathedars, Shaheeds etc, who are all worthy of our respect, and as various other discussions are occuring on Sants and Babas elsewhere on this forum, it is stressed as per the spirit of Gurmat, that only Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj, is our SAT Guru and the divine jyot of the 10 Gurus contained therein, our magnificent and guiding spiritual personalities.

With this in mind, please continue to discuss the Bhai Sahib Jee and bring forth your views, discussions etc as per above.

Kind regards,

SMS

[Singh47]

Why was Baba Raam Rae disowned from the panth. Becuase he twisted and denied the eternal words of Gurbani.

Literally Randhir Singh may not have idolised Ram Rae but he acted along the same terms disowning the baani

Baba Ram Rai was disowned from the Panth because he tried to “ALTER†Bani and its literal meaning, he didn’t DENY Asa Dhi Vaar, in case you don’t know this Sakhi(because it seems very clear you don’t know this Sakhi very clearly).

Bhai Randhir Singh Jee’s stand on Ragmala is totally different. He is not altering it, but DENYING it. Do you know the difference between altering and denying? Please go to dictionary.com for the meaning of those words. The Panth has no definite stand on Ragmala. The Panth is silent on this issue, in other words neutral. It goes both ways, some say it is Bani while some say it is not.

If your whole bases of calling Bhai Randhir Singh Jee a Ram Raiya is that he denied Ragmala, then, does that means I can draw a parallel between you and a Muslim Jehadi just because you both have beards?

It was Lalleshwari who started drawing these absurd parallels. Instead of following him blindly like a sheep, please use your own brain, and start doing critical thinking for yourself.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Again, please could I ask that we keep this away from 'playground' type mud-slinging and focus ourselves on the discussion at hand -Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh.

As per the present aspect concerning RamRaeye and Raagmala, again, without developing this into a raagmala pro-or-anti argument thread, continue to discuss this matter, HOWEVER, allow the strengths of your arguments carry your message and deductions rather than ridiculing each other...whilst your comments have not been altered, as it is a debate/argument, but in order retain some sensibility to the flow of this thread going forward, let's try keep our posts to the point being raised, allow that to carry the weight of your arguments.

Thanking you,

SMS.

[challenge_everything]

I think that Bhaji Singh47 just needs to calm down and discuss the matter of Randhir Singh rationally wihout allowing his personal emotions affect him.

At the end of the day if a person who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru denies a whole Ang of his Guru can he really live up to the lines of Guru Gobind Singh...

"Jin Bhae adab na baani dhara, jaano so sikh naahi hamara."

"That person who has no respect and fear of the word of the Guru, know that that person is not my Sikh."

It is also said that at the end of Randhir Singhs life he asked Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhinderanwale for forgiveness and it was only when he repented for the sin of disowning baani thast he finally died... after a long painful death.

It was the Randhir Singh Jatha who gave birth to such instituiions as the Teja Singh Bhasaur Jatha who reached such extremes that even Randhir Singh disowned one of his main suopporters Teja Singh.

May Waheguru forgive those poor misguided souls who mistakedly disown the Guru's baani...

[Singh47]

self edited

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear All,

Cursory comments like that of Akali Sodhi above will be deleted hereforth, as they add no value to the debate. Sorry to have to use you as an example, however this is the THIRD time that a Moderation comment has been added to this thread.

Please continue with the discussion, bring in new elements of Bhai Sahib's life, assess it critically if desired (however with the necessary respect as per posting guidelines), however PLEASE leave 'playground' politics out of this, otherwise this will be locked.

Thanking you all,

SMS.

[Guest]

SMS,

Since it started. I think we shall spilt this topic. All off-topics can transformed into new topic "Last few days of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji"

So other can post it too... let me know if you like this idea so i can spilt this matter into new topic under formal debate discussions !

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Neo,

By all means begin the new thread concerning "the closing days of Bhai Randhir Singh's life" however please keep these comments here too, as this thread is about "Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh" and hence I would like to see it flourish with matters related to his life, persona and work.

Bhai Sahib is undeniably a modern era "Mystic" and has held influence over a vast number of people from the obvious connections with the AKJ and Bhasaur Singh Sabha to others like Bhagat Singh and also with other parts of the Global Sikh community (SGPC, 3HO, Sant Jathas, Taksal etc...whilst not in total concurrance with all his views have all had representatives of their organisations affiliated with Bhai Sahib).

I wish for this thread to continue without the cursory comments and for a full fledged debate on Bhai Sahib's life and reforms, let's hope we can see this occur without the usual paranoia that surrounds it elsewhere and the immaturity that has been displayed by some people here.

Regards,

SMS

[Guest]

I think that Bhaji Singh47 just needs to calm down and discuss the matter of Randhir Singh rationally wihout allowing his personal emotions affect him.

At the end of the day if a person who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru denies a whole Ang of his Guru can he really live up to the lines of Guru Gobind Singh...

"Jin Bhae adab na baani dhara, jaano so sikh naahi hamara."

"That person who has no respect and fear of the word of the Guru, know that that person is not my Sikh."

It is also said that at the end of Randhir Singhs life he asked Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhinderanwale for forgiveness and it was only when he repented for the sin of disowning baani thast he finally died... after a long painful death.

It was the Randhir Singh Jatha who gave birth to such instituiions as the Teja Singh Bhasaur Jatha who reached such extremes that even Randhir Singh disowned one of his main suopporters Teja Singh.

May Waheguru forgive those poor misguided souls who mistakedly disown the Guru's baani...

Singh132 respond to the above quote:

If Bhai Sahib accepted Ragmala before his chaRaiee, then why wouldn't he have told the other Singhs with him about it? According to your nonsensical story, if other Singhs with Bhai Sahib (Bhai Tarlochan Singh, Bhai Jaswant Singh, Bhai Balbir Singh, etc.) in his final days saw the insects in his mouth and his horrible pain and then saw how he was cured after accepting ragmala, why wouldn't they have also immediately corrected their mistake?

The story doesn't even make logical sense, let alone historical sense.

Bhai Sahib's chaRaiee as witnessed by many many people was very peaceful.

Here's a good reply to people who tell these idiotic insect stories:

Insects in the mouth?? Oh wow. That can't be good. I think this is it. You've convinced me now. The last 500 insect stories I've heard just didn't cut it. But this one.....it really sheds new light on the whole issue. How could anyone be against rag maala after this?

The thing is, I really don't like insects. Especially cockroaches. He didn't have roaches, did he?? That would be really bad. But how about all those other people who were against raag malaa like Kanh Singh Nahba, Giani Gurdit Singh, Pandit Tara Singh Nirotam, Dr. Saahib Singh, Principal Teja Singh, Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha, Dr. Ganda Singh, etc? Do you think they just managed to hide the insects? Yeah, I bet you that they probably just didn't talk much. Yeah, that makes sense.

The problem is, I know so many people who don't read raag maala. What am I supposed to do around them now? I hate insects, can't stand them. I don't want to be sitting in langar and all of a sudden roaches start climbing out of the next singh's mouth.

I know!! I'll start carrying a can of insect repellant (RAID works well I've heard). That should work. Any sign of keeray and SHHSHSHSHS!! spray them to their next joon. I always thought some of these singhs talked funny. Probably the roaches they're trying to hide in their mouths. Thanks for getting me to see the light. Please, keep the enlightening stories coming.

(PS - Do you think anything else can cause keeray too? Like telling lies about Singhs and twisting history? I sure hope not.)

[Guest]

Guys lets dedicate this thread now to contributions of Bhai Sahib Ji literatures/bachan to the sangat.

How many books he orginally wrote in punjab?? and What are they?? and its contents?

I myself not interested in his books translated in english.

[sukhsingh]

note for n3o singh.

that quote that u used 2 posts ago, saying that bhai kahn singh nabha didnt believe in raagmaalaa is fasle.

at one time kahn singh didnt believe in it, but then later on , he said he was wrong, and startted to believe in it.

[khalistani]

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

beliving in raag maala is a must

on damdamitaksal.com it gives reasons to y raag maala is bani

read raag maala gurbani hai

and in one of the bios of a taksal mukhi it does say bhai sahib je had a meeting with sant gurbachan singh je and did accept raag maala, but then the inner memebers decided bhai sahib went corrupt or something and never told no one

something like that

but they accepted it

no one can be brahm giani if they deny a whole ang of guru je

maybe close to brahm giani, but not there yet

bhula chuka maf

Vaheguru je ka khalsa, Vaheguru je ke fateh!!

[SAadmin]

no one can be brahm giani if they deny a whole ang of guru je

maybe close to brahm giani, but not there yet

bhula chuka maf

Thats what i was saying in other thread.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Dear Forum,

We have seen a lot of discussion on the 'closing days' thread concerning Bhai Sahib, I was personally rather hoping we could see something more on this thread, particularly form those who have been influenced by Bhai Sahib in their lives -personally, I would rather like to know more about how Bhai Sahib lived rather than died.

As I have stated before, Bhai Sahib is a mystic who has left behind much in the way of literature and a growing following, let us actually look at aspects of his life, writings and actions and discuss these aspects.

To begin with I would like to know more about the following (arising mainly out of his autobiography and elsewhere):

-The mystic experiences of Bhai Sahib on Vaisakhi and Gurpurb of Guru Gobind Singh, where he describes his use of both saas-saas simran and mala Jaap together with the use of his Prana-Shakti.

-Meeting with the Yogi and its parallels on a wider scale in the development of Bhai Sahib's mysticism.

-The significance of the espisode of feeding another Gursikh Bhai seated in a different field to Bhai Sahib and his Wife.

-Supernatural encounters and their significance (namely, the Ghost and the Akhand Paath and accounts of Gursikhs floating during Simran and Akhand Kirtan).

Please contribute with your insights on this and other points.

Thanking you all,

SMS

[Guest Maha_Pavitar]

Bhai Atma singh, a mutual friend of Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Joginder Singh of Patiala, was visiting Bhai Joginder Singh. One day while eating his meals Bhai Atama Singh went into trance. He stopped picking food from his plate, although his jaws were still moving as if he was chewing food. Bhai Joginder Singh was nonplussed to see this bizarre behavior of Bhai Atma Singh. He asked his wife, “What is the matter with Bhai Atma Singh.†“ Nothing unusual, Bhai Randhir Singh is feeding Bhai Atma Singh from Narangwal,†she answered. According to the book, Bhai Randhir Singh, who was also having his meals at the same time, stopped putting food in his mouth but continued picking food and the food was disappearing. Bhai Randhir Singh’s mother who was watching him asked his wife, “What is happening here.†“ Nothing unusual, he is feeding Bhai Atma Singh, who is visiting Bhai Joginder Singh in Patiala.†(Page 78, Rangle Saajan)

[Guest Maha_Pavitar]

Bhai Randhir Singh went to a Gurdwara to pay homage and receive Guru’s blessing. There was no one else in the Gurdwara except him. He prostrated before Guru Granth Sahib with great humility and devotion. He was astonished beyond belief what he saw when he got up. The chaur Sahib was moving on its own back and forth over Guru Granth Sahib Ji. (Page 51, Jail Chittian)

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Thew following is an article taken from Sikh Spectrum by Baldev Singh. Whilst it is possible for Baldev Singh to be a sympathiser with Kala Afghana supporters, he does raise some interesting observations at the end of his article with regard to Bhai Sahib Jee's life.

Let's discuss these to understand what the real purport of these accounts are -as we do have some member of the AKJ on this forum, we would be grateful if you could help in this regard to avoid the comments of Baldev Singh being turned into slanderous works.

p.s. This is not a discussion concerning meat, so let us not get too hung up on this part of the essay. For ease of reference I have highlighted in bold the areas for discussion.

Thanks,

SMS

Some of Bhai Randhir Singh's Writings

by Baldev Singh

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In Mas Mas Kar Moorakh Jhagre, Gurbakhsh Singh Kala Afghana has pointed out how Bhai Randhir Singh has taken the liberty to misinterpret Gurbani to prove that non-vegetarian diet is sinful.1 Guru Nanak’s counsel against the debate over diet was simple and something else, however. Addressing a Brahmin, to whom even the sight of flesh was pollution, Guru Nanak said:

“Foolish people quarrel over the merit of partaking flesh knowing not what is flesh and what is not. Why the eating of flesh is sinful and not the eating of non-flesh food? In the ancient times rhinoceros was sacrificed and its flesh was burnt in the sacred fire to worship gods. Those who have abandoned meat eating and can’t stand its flavor, devour men in the darkness of the night. They practice this hypocrisy to impress people, though they do not understand what is flesh.

“Nanak, what can one tell to an ignorant person who does not understand what is said to him or her? Blind is the one who performs foolish deeds due to lack of wisdom. Look, born of mother and father’s blood, one eats not fish or meat! The sexual intercourse between a man and woman also involves organs made of flesh.

“We are conceived in flesh, born from flesh and our bodies are made of flesh. O Pandit, you don’t understand this fact, but you consider yourself expert on flesh! Sir, how come animal flesh is bad and your flesh is good? They earn their food through illegal means, whose Guru is ignorant. We are conceived in flesh, born from flesh and our bodies are made of flesh.

“O Pandit, you don’t understand this fact, but you consider yourself an expert on flesh! There is mention of meat in Hindu and Semitic texts and people have eaten meat throughout human history. In Hindu sacrifice ceremonies (jagya) and marriages meat has prominent place. All men and women, are born of flesh as are kings and chiefs. O Pandit! If all these go to hell, then why you accept their donations? What kind of justice is this that the one who gives charity goes to hell and the one who accepts charity goes to heaven?

“O Pandit, aren’t you very clever! You are advising others against meat eating while you know nothing about it! O, Pandit you don’t know how flesh is produced! Water is the source of life. It is water that produces grains, sugarcane, cotton and all forms of life. Water is beneficial to life in many ways as it produces many kinds of food for the sustenance of life. One becomes real ‘ascetic’ by restraining ardent desire for worldly pleasure.”

In the preceding shabad Guru Nanak emphasizes the role of flesh in the creation, maintenance, sustenance, and perpetuation of life.

“First one is conceived in flesh (womb) from father and mother’s elements that are produced from their flesh and then it is nurtured in flesh until it develops into a mature fetus made up of flesh and bones wrapped in skin and with a fleshy tongue in mouth. “After birth one seeks nourishment through mother’s breast which is also made of flesh. Its mouth, tongue and lungs for breathing are also of flesh. When one grows up and marries, he brings home wife who is also made of flesh. From this flesh are produced children who are also of flesh and all relations are produced from flesh. “When one meets the true Guru, then one understands the Divine Law and realizes the true goal of life. Self-centered efforts do not bring about salvation and discussions about meat are useless (AGGS, M, 1, p 1289)”

Bhai Radhir Singh's interpretation of these two shabads startles me. Bhai Sahib states: “If the above mentioned hymns allows the eating of meat, then we have to eat all kinds of meat, for instance - filthy blood, semen, menstruation, uterus, vagina, fetus, (bones, skin, body and flesh) of the fetus, woman’s breasts, nose, lips, the whole mouth including teeth, tongue and palate. This means we have to eat our wives, our children and relatives.”2

Guru Angad Dev has emphasized Guru Nanak’s council about diet in the following verses: Who created life in water also provides the sustenance for it. There, one form of life depends on another form of life as food (AGGS, M, 2, p 955). Moreover, Guru Nanak has warned against an extravagant life style and idle pursuits that alienate us from Waheguru. Instead, he has urged modest living, which is essential for a spiritual life. Additionally, Guru Nanak has advised against the consumption of any food or substance that has deleterious effects on the mental and physical health of a person. This includes intoxicants – alcohol, drugs and smoking. Aad Guru Granth Sahib does not advocate preference for vegetarian or non-vegetarian diet. All Sikhs should live by the teachings of our Gurus: “One who learns the lesson of Guru’s thoughts, crosses the (ocean of worldly temptations) with God’s grace (AGGS, M 1, p 465).”

One of Bhai Randhir Singh’s very devout followers, Professor Uday Singh, while criticizing Kala Afghana in the April 2002 issue of the Sikh Bulletin, compared Bhai Randhir Singh to Bhai Gurdas and Bhai Nand Lal. And, in his zeal, he went on to say that Bhai Randhir Singh was God. I was curious to know more and decided to read Bhai Randhir Singh’s writings. I will present some highlights from his books Jail Chithian,3 Rangle Sajan4 and Jiwan Chritar.5

After reading Bhai Randhir Singh’s books it appeared to me that he was possibly influenced by non-Sikh traditions particularly the traditions common among sadhus. I have reached this conclusions because his books are replete with stories and anecdotes based on miracles, supernatural-powers, spirits of the dead, telepathy, and the like. In spite of his baptism of the amrit, Gurbani recitals and akhand paths (continuous recitation of Aad Guru Granth Sahib), he continued believing in these things.

From Jail Chithian (pp 4-11, 1992), we come to know that Bhai Randhir Singh was a college student in Lahore, when he had an encounter with a Hindu sadhu (holy man), who, according to Bhai Randhir Singh, possessed supernatural powers. Bhai Sahib was much impressed by him. One day the sadhu was smoking a pipe, which disappointed Bhai Sahib. Several days later, while entering Sahid Ganj Gurdwara, he had a vision of an old Sikh with a flowing white beard who told him, “Since you have lost your fondness for that smoker, now you have the Guru’s blessing.” The old man then disappeared.

Bhai Randhir Singh went to a Gurdwara to pay homage and receive the Guru’s blessing. There was no one else in the Gurdwara except him. He prostrated before Guru Granth Sahib with great humility and devotion. He was astonished beyond belief at what he saw when he got up. The chaur (flywhisk) was moving on its own, back and forth, over AGGS (Jail Chithian, p. 51).

Once he did not go to work for several days without taking a leave of absence, as he was busy attending Gurbani recitals and other programs in a local Gurdwara. Concerned that his supervisors would ask for an explanation, he was hesitant to go back to work. When he finally reported for work, he was surprised to find his name signed in for all the days he had missed. Uday Singh mentions this anecdote from Jail Chithian ( p. 163). I have heard similar stories about sant (saint) Atar Singh. Bhai Hira Singh, another inmate in the jail, told Bhai Randhir Singh that he has a formula for converting copper into gold. They converted one tola of copper into gold and sent it out for test. The man who tested it confirmed that it was indeed gold.

In Rangle Sajan (1993) we read about the time when Guru Hargobind Sahib appeared before a meditating Sikh and showered him with a treasure of diamonds and precious stones (p.73). There is also a story of how Bhai Sahib telepathically fed Bhai Atma Singh when the latter was visiting the house of Bhai Joginder Singh. Bhai Randhir Singh talks about haunted places one of them was a pond where he and his friend would meditate. His friend had a vision of Guru Gobind Singh there (Jiwan Chritar, p. 51). Also, Bhai Hira Singh is said to have levitated while sitting in attendance of Guru Granth Sahib. When Bhai Randhir Singh was born, his grand father got his horoscope prepared by a Brahmin. Whatever Bhai Randhir Singh accomplished was predicted in that horoscope (Jiwan Chritar, p. 18).

I am aware that many people respect Bhai Randhir Singh. I would like to understand his writings in light of Gurbani, which does not lay emphasis on supernatural acts or foretelling the future.

REFERENCES

1 Kala Afghana, G. S. Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhagre (Punjabi), Amritsar, 1996.

2 Singh, B. R. Tat Gurmat Nirnai (Punjabi), 1991, 104-105.

3 Singh, B. R. Jail Chithian (Punjabi), 9th reprint, Ludhiana, 1992.

4 Singh, B., R. Rangle Sajan (Punjabi), 8th reprint, Jullandhar, 1993.

5 Singh, B. R. Jiwan Chritar Bahi Sahib Randhir Singh (Punjabi), 4th reprint, 1990.

[Guest Sardar Moderator Singh]

Does anyone have any comments on this article, it would be helpful for the AKJ Singhnees and Singhs and others influenced by Bhai Sahib to please bring forth your views on these areas in order to clarify the matter.

On closer inspection of Baldev Singh's other works it is clear that he is anti-Dasam Granth and a sympathiser of Kala Afghana, however as stated above, his issues are still worth addressing in order to fully understand why Bhai Sahib Jee said/did what he did in the highlighted situations.

Thanks,

SMS