THE CONTROVERSY

[BAZ]

"If truth be the knife and Truth its steel, then its make is of infinite glory.

And if it is sharpened on the wheatstone of the divine word .

And kept safe in the sheath of the Divine Virture.

Then if the Sheikh is 'killed' with this knife, all his blood of Greed will be spilt.

And in this way he will become Halal (Pure) and will meet the Lord God.

And thus, will witness the bliss of God's Vision at his gate."

(Var Raamkalee mehlaa 1, panna 956)

I dont think this has anything to do with meat at all. Looks to me like the process of slaughtering the animal is used symbolically to illustrate a deeper message that is unrelated.

By the way can someone provide me an answer to that question I had about Guru Gobind Singh Ji's hunting hawk? If eating meat is forbidden then what was he doing with a hawk whos purpose is to hunt?

[Guest]

By the way can someone provide me an answer to that question I had about Guru Gobind Singh Ji's hunting hawk? If eating meat is forbidden then what was he doing with a hawk whos purpose is to hunt?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji's hunted all ranges of different animals to give them salvation because Guru ji can see previous lives of everyone...Guru ji never hunted and ate meat for taste of tongue purposes.

Sikhs cannot always compare them with their Guru's when it comes to certain things that Guru's did...

[BAZ]

Oh yeah I think I remember Harry telling me this now. Where is this written though?

[DHANBABANANAK]

meet khana bohot vada paap, oh da likha dena pena. Pher ta oh he janvar tera sir kutke tenu vi kaho. Paap bora paapi ko pyare. To those meat eaters.... would u cut up some one in ur own house and eat them? how do u think the mum of that janvar feels? well if u dont belive me

Mod's Note: Edited due to content:

[Dynamic_Banda]

The consumtion of meat is not a controversial isue but a sociological one, it has very little to do with a belief system other then belief is integrated into social structures and hence has some influence but wether someone should or shouldnt eat meat is of no concern, what we should be concerned about is wether one should eat the only pure thing in existance which is gods name, amrit, ie Truth. or wether they should eat Maya, Lies and poison.

Everything wether vegitarian or meat is part of this manifest world the arguments for and against meat eating swing both ways, to say it is paap to eat meat because you hurt a living being is egotistical thought that human senses are the only valid senses, plants bend towards the light meaning they can sense the changes in light and change themselves to compensate for their situation if they can sense light then what is there to say they can not sense pain, just lack the means to express it.

So plants to may possibly feel pain so would one stop eating anything, the idea that meat is paap well paap and pun are all to your own understanding, as mentioned in Bani many debate paap and pun yet non realise the truth wasting their time with paaps and pun debates.

Maharaj hunting issue is an intresting case, some believe Maharaj hunted to liberate the souls of the animals he hunted, well hunting carried on in the panth and amongst the singhs, would this mean that those singhs are liberating the animal also ? or would it imply that maybe Guru didnt just hunt for liberation purposes.

Secondly on the above point, it is common mistake to take a story which occured in one place and transfer it to all related situations, the story of liberating a singh who was incarnated as some animal during a hunting trip of Maharajs only occured in one place (gurdwara is in Hazoor Sahib I believe please correct me if wrong), however this story is now used by vegitarians to state it occured in all of mahrajs hunting trips yet there are no gurdwares or ithas backing this idea.

So do not worry about wether eating meat is correct or not, eating anything for pleasure should be avoided however eating and causing discomfort should also be avoided, everything do in a controlled manner what is correct for you as you understand it, asking maharaj to do what a Guru does and Guide. However one shouldnt take a stance and force others to either eat or not eat something unless we know for definate it is against the will of God. and as all happens in his will. its hard to find sometihng like that.

[Sikher]

Topic closed

[kabbadi_singh]

Similarly, when a sikh combs his hair, it doubtlessly results in the removal of some broken or dead hair, but despite all this he is not considered an apostate but is considered a devotee who strictly follows life in accordance with the Gursikh Code of Conduct. As against this, one who cuts his hair just to follow the general fashions prevalent amonst others, becomes immediately an 'Apostate'. Literally speaking fall of hair is there in both the processes but the underlying intention is definitely different. In the former case, the intention is to respect the Keshas and in the latter it is a disgrace to them. Likewise is subtle difference between meat-eaters and non-meat-eaters.

The following couplet from Gurbani brings forth this difference even more clearly, by stressing the need of eating food-grains etc., and at the same time, questioning the eating of animal flesh by humans:

"Kabir, sublime is the food, rice and pulse mixed with delicious salt.

Instead, who would like to have his throat cut (in future life) by eating flesh-foods obtained by hunting the animals?"

(Salok Kabeer Ji, panna 1374)

Thus, the conclusion derived from the above couplet of Gurbani, is explicitly clear. One may or may not accept it. Amazingly, when the meat relishers are not able to find any justification in their favour from Gurbani, they put forward other questionable and vaque arguments to achieve their objectives. They say that all these quotations from the gurbani which condemn eating of meat, are authored by Bhagat Kabir Ji only. In their zeal, they forget that the entire Gurbani enshrined in Sri Guru Granth Sahib has the status of, regardless of its authorship, The GURU. It either emanated from the Gurus themselves or from the Bhagats, Bhatts and other devotees of God who had reached the highest state of God-realisation, and their works have gained approbation of Guru Sahib who then incorporated the same in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Thus, it is imperative for every sikh to accept the whole Bani contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib as the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

[kabbadi_singh]

WIDE CONSUMPTION OF LIQUOR AND MEAT AMONG THE SIKHS-WHOSE FAULT?

It is very strange that the sikh community, for whom the highest moral standards have been set by the Gurus, sizeable number out of it has not been able to escape these vices. This has resulted in the downfall of Sikh Society socially and morally. The eminent leaders of the community on the so-called illiteracy and lack of education in the masses in general, especially in the remote areas. To some extent it may be true. However, the one greatest reasdon is that the majority of the religios preachers and other important people engaged in the propagation of the Sikh faith, are themselves victim to these vices. Hence they started propagating openly that these are not prohibited in the Sikh religion. Some seemingly virtious people have even gone to the extent of making offerings of meat and hemp before Guru Sahib and praying for acceptence of the same and then distributing it as Prasad or the Blessed food. If someone doubts the authencity of this statement, one may go even now and witness this practice on the occasion of Hola Mohalla at Hazoor Sahib Nanded, and Sri Anandpur Sahib. It is being done openly. Some people have even gone to the extent of declaring that one who does not eat Mahan Prasad (i.e. meat) is not a sikh. It is a sheer perversity to give such a revered name of Mahan Prasad (i.e. most auspicious food) to this blasphemous, abhorred and filithy material. As against this, in the sikh tradition as well as in the old Sikh literature, the word Mahan Prasad has been used to denote the most sacred and sanctified food i.e. Karah Prasad.

[Beast]

i don't get ur message - are u saying no to meat or no to cannibalism?

(ps forcing someone to eat meat is just as bad as forcing someone to be vegetarian.)

[Dynamic_Banda]

yaara you ask for a quote of bani to justify what I have stated in ealy posts (well not me specifically but those who eat meat)

All I have to say is for your sake as you have quoted one line from bani and said it is maharajs bani all in all and hence there is no need to view the whole shabad or the context behind the shabad, the words are enough I shall provide a simple shabad easily understandable which will provide evidance for the argument I have been presenting throughout this topic. I hope this is the sort of reply you were looking for and I hope it helps us all understand.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Maajh Ang 142:

What good is food, and what good are clothes,

if the True Lord does not abide within the mind?

What good are fruits, what good is ghee, sweet jaggery, what good is flour, and what good is meat?

What good are clothes, and what good is a soft bed, to enjoy pleasures and sensual delights?

What good is an army, and what good are soldiers, servants and mansions to live in?

O Nanak, without the True Name, all this paraphernalia shall disappear. ||2||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=392

So the so called Maha Parsad sanctified foods as mention in your above posts or the Sublime foods of Bhagat Kabir, are seen as no different then meats catagorized into the same group and concidered of no use if the truth of Naam is not involved.

Also if you state that being vegitarian is the maryada given to us by God and eating meat is against GODS will, then you are also ignorant to other shabads in Bani, such as the Salok on ang 144 by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Raag Maajh

Tigers, hawks, falcons and eagles-the Lord could make them eat grass.

And those animals which eat grass-He could make them eat meat. He could make them follow this way of life.

He could raise dry land from the rivers, and turn the deserts into bottomless oceans.

He could appoint a worm as king, and reduce an army to ashes.

All beings and creatures live by breathing, but He could keep us alive, even without the breath.

O Nanak, as it pleases the True Lord, He gives us sustenance. ||1||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=408

Here we see the shabad make it perfectly clear the vegitarians could all begin to eat meat and the meat eaters all become vegitarian, its all in the grace and kirpa of akaalpurakh. As mentioned in my previous post all is in the hands of God do not concentrate on what we eat physically concentrate on what we eat spiritually, and share that amongst our brothers and sisters.

[kabbadi_singh]

In the congregation of the Gursikhs, some devotees bring sweet eatables, some bring Mahan Prasad(most sacred food i.e. Karah Prasad) and some invite Gursikhs to celebrate Gurpurbs.

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, Kabit 309)

Sugar, ghee, flour, water and fire, when all combined, the resultant product becomes KARAH PRASAD i.e. food comprising of five blissful ingredients.

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, Kabit 124)

They bring new earthen pots filled with water (for free service of drinking water).

(they also) bring MAHA PRASAD (i.e. KARAH PRASAD) for serving (in the Sangat).

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, Var 20, pauri 10)

[Dynamic_Banda]

If your above quotes are to use Bhai Gurdas Jis Bani as a means to justify the use of Maha Parshad to solely imply to the Karah prasad, then your quotes do not imply that,

I do not have access to the original text so shall rely on your translations.

The first quote you have drawn the link between the use of Maha Parshad and the assumption it refers to Karah Parsad hence the brackets within the quote, (Kabit 309)

The second quote has no reference to Maha Parshad however explains Karah Parshad, would this not imply that if the term Karah Parsad is being used here explicitly then if Maha parsad was no different the term Karah Parsad could have been used in those instances, hence indicating a possible difference in the meaning of Maha Parsad and Karah Parsad (Kabit 124)

The final quote draws upon the same as the first, the link between karah parsad and Maha Parsad are made by yourself in brackets and not actually part of the quote.

My personal belief at this moment in time by the grace of Akaalpurakh is that Maha parsad refers to meat, or vegitarian food, it specifically refers to the food given to the sangat, as being the great food as it is shared amongst all. However, I have not researched deeply into this area so may not be entirely correct on an academic or factual level, and always open to learning more from my brothers and sisters and by the grace of God.

Also an intresting point to note is that in my previous post I was about to add a quote from Bhai Gurdas Vaara, however unable to find which vaar it was I took it out, Now Kabaddi yaara has referenced the wonderful Bani of Bhai Gurdas Ji and so I see this as a sign to add the quote I had dismissed previously.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5870

In this vaar Bhai Gurdas Ji indicates how both a tree and a goat destroy/ kill themselves inorder to become part of maharajs darbar, and in doing such are an aid in the worship of the True Guru.

Now this is very intresting as to what this shabad reveals and implies.

A handsome tree got cut itself and got manufactured into a rebeck.

A young goat underwent the mortification of getting killed itself; it distributed its meat among the meat-eaters.

These two first lines are most important in the context of this topic, here we see the tree being cut to form a rebeck (instrument used to play music), this is paralleled to a goat being killed so that its meat may go to to meat eaters, in the shabad itself, there is no mention of meat eaters just that the meat is distributed.

The following lines explain how the rest of the goat is used to form instruments, now the context of this shabad is about a product coming from its raw form and being transfered to that which is part of the darbar an aid to worship of akaal purakh.

Does this mean that here Bhai Gurdas is explicitly stating that the sangat would engage in consumption of meat? If thats not the case then why metion it in this shabad?

Also the tree could represent the source of food for the vegitarians and the goat the meat eaters, then this shabad would also imply that these two provide the food for the body, (both meat and vegitarian) whereas what they later produce are instruments used to provide food for the soul, (worship of God)

We must begin to notice in all the quotes so far there is no argument about wether one should or should not eat meat, it is more about embracing the food of truth the food for our hearts and our souls naam, by the grace of Akaal

I just noticed that maybe yaara you posted those quotes as a counter argument to no food is sublime or special, however I would ask you to note the following point which maybe I was not clear in explaining in the previous post.

In all these quotes (the ones you referenced and the ones I did) other then the description of Karah Parsad (Bhai Gurdas Ji, Kabit 124), there is explicit mention of its use amongst the sangat the congregation which is Gurus roop and hence a part of God. So that which is used or required by the congregation is according to Gods will. So the statement still stands and is infact reinforced by the quotes you provided.

[mloco]

"Kabir, sublime is the food, rice and pulse mixed with delicious salt.

Instead, who would like to have his throat cut by eating flesh-foods obtained by hunting the animals?"

(Salok Kabeer Ji, panna 1374)

[kabbadi_singh]

Just like mis-nomer of KarahPrasad, some hemp-loving people have given the mis-nomer of Sukh Nidhan (Treasure of happiness) to hemp and liquor has been given the mis-nomer of panj Ratni (i.e. admixture of five precious elements) meaning most precious drink. In this way they are following the practice of Vam Margis (Vam Marg is a so-called religious cult of the hindus wherein meat and liquor are considered as auspicious foods and unrestricted sex has religious sanction).

However, such repugnant practices have no place in the Khalsa Way of Life. By giving a virtuous and attractive name to a despicable thing, its vicious nature cannot be altered. Those who resort to contemplitible practices, not only hoodwink others but also befool themselves in doing so because their explanations are based on absolutely false notions which like wall of sand are sure to collapse:

Falsehood cannot equal the truth by any means.

(Bhai Gurdas Ji, Var 34, Pauri 21)

Even if the falsehood is concealed under beautiful cover, it cannot remain hidden. Falsehood ultimately fades away.

"Falsehood shall ultimately fade away, (Nanak) while truth remains ever-green."

(Var raamkalee, mahalla 1, panna 953)

[kabbadi_singh]

Thus the gist of the whole discussionis that by attributing the sole responsibility of the wide-spread use of the liqour and meat amonst the Sikhs at large to illteracy among majority of Sikh masses, we are side-tracking the main issue. It is definitely the Sikh religious leadership who is responsible for this state of affairs because majority of them addicted to these vices, are propagating the same deliberately.

[Beast]

In this way they are following the practice of Vam Margis (Vam Marg is a so-called religious cult of the hindus wherein meat and liquor are considered as auspicious foods and unrestricted sex has religious sanction).

where can one findeth such people? It's not for me, erm...it's for a mate.

[kabbadi_singh]

GENERAL ARGUEMENTS IN SUPPORT OF MEAT-EATING.

Those who support the religiosity of meat-eating in Sikhism generally offer the following arguements:

(1) In Sikhism there is no restriction on eating any food. To eat or not to eat meat, depends on one's own personal preference and taste. According to Gurmat, the only criterion for selection of food to eat, is that the food chosen should not cause disease to body and not result in pollution of the mind. In support of this reasoning they cite the following quotation from Gurbani by changing the actual wording to suit their interpretation:

baabaa sa khaanaa khusee khu-aar.

jit khaaDhai tan peerhee-ai man meh chaleh vikaar. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Note : Instead of Sa in the first line, the word actually used in Gurbani is hore.

[Malwe Da Sher]

lol, how can you say eating meat and consuming sukh nidhan is down to illiteracy. My brother saying so is the height of ignorance and arrogance that your path alone is right. Why are u wasting ur time trying 2 make everyone vergatarian. Do you know many of the people indulged in this topic. will it effect you directly or indirectly if they eat or dont eat meet. My brother parchar is good but simple mindedness will get you no where. if you feel eating meat is down to illiteracy you should speak 2 some of the nihang singhs. perhaps then brother you may learn that your fanatical vegetarinism is infact down to lack of knowledge, simple mindedness and extremism. Its about your seva and simran, not about your diet.

If you have such knowledge of bani you will know that guru nanak dev ji maharaj says that the fools argue about meet...so why start this topic and why carry on posting and argueming? The shabad should be posted up everytime some1 mentions meet. cant remember the exact shabad but its by guru nanak dev ji and talks about meet being eaten from the begining of time, and everything is flesh

[Dynamic_Banda]

lol malwai are definatly illiterate, cant even spell meat properly.. !!! but good points non the less,

I respect Kabbadi Singh I enjoy his passion for his beliefs and at least his posts started with good references and use of quations and bani to back up his points for that reason I accept his arguments except the last one about the use of that one segment of Bani to justify eating meat,

I made several posts not justifying eating meat but just saying it dont matter just be happy and healthy and holy.. (!!!!)

And I didnt use just one shabad as reference points but used a selection of shabads and full shabads not just one lines, from a range of bania in satguru Maharaj and some of Bhai Gurdas Jis Vaara.

[kabbadi_singh]

(2) In Sikhism the only restriction is on eating meat obtained by killing the animal in Kosher fashion i.e. the Muslim method of killing the animal while reciting KALMA (the Muslim holy formula). As against this, there is permission in Sikhism to eat meat obtained by killing the animal by Jhatka i.e. with one stroke while reciting 'Sat Sri Akal' (the Sikh holy formula).

[Malwe Da Sher]

lol dude why are u still posting? if u look on previous posts im sure u will find this topcic discussed a more than enuff times

[kabbadi_singh]

(3) In old Sikh literature there is no mention of any restriction on eating meat. Rather meat has been mentioned therein as one of the foods prepared in the Langar in times of the Gurus themselves.

[Beast]

where can one findeth such people? It's not for me, erm...it's for a mate.

the clock is ticking dear sir.

[kabbadi_singh]

(4) If killing of the chicken, goat, partridge, quail, etc., is considered as slaughter of living beings, then the other most common eatables like wheat, beans, milk, water etc., also contain living organisms. Therefore, those who eat these foods, cannot escape this blame too.

(5) Those who do not eat meat, become cowards or chicken-hearted.

(6) Meat is a very nourishing food that makes one healthy and robust.

Let us, now, examine each of the above-mentioned reasonings in the light of Gurbani.

[kabbadi_singh]

RE: ARGUMENT NO. 1

The meat-eaters of the Sikh community generally assert that ther is no restriction on any kind of eatables in Sikhism. To eat or not to eat meat, is left to the discretion, choice or taste of each individual. This assertion is absolutely baseless. According to the Sikh Way of Life, only those types of food are permitted, by eating which both, body and mind become healthy and fully developed which would help in enhancing their capacity to do sewa and Simran.

All the foods and stuff, whose use makes the body and mind lethargic, e.g. tobacco, poppy, hemp, opium, liquor etc., or which are obtained by torturing and killing other living creatures and makes both the body and mind cruel as well as perverse, are clearly prohibited according to Gurbani: