raagmaala

[singh khalistan da]

Is Ragamalla (p1430 SGGS, debate on whether or not it is authentic) in the birs at Kartarpur and Damdama Sahib?

Some say yes, some say no. Your input would be greatly appreciated.

[vaapaaraa]

I just read the page on ragamala at http://www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/1430.html , its really beautiful..

btw im not sure if it is found in the birs at Kartarpur and Damdama Sahib, so can't say anythin about that.

[raagrishi]

pyario

This topic has been beaten so badly that it makes me sick. To be honest as vir said why are we discussing when we dont understand the rest of Guru Maharaj. The meaning of Ek Oankar is not even known.

But I would like to put my views on raag mala as far as i understand it and i hope it can clear any misconceptions.

The simple reason why we have started to question raag mala is because no one knows and understands the classical system of raag vidiya of the time. we have stopped learning the theory of raag vidiya and stopped singing and playing raags and instead have started playing hindu tunes or tunes that we feel like. im not saying this is wrong or right but merely saying that this is the main reason why we have forgotten what raags are thus why we do not understand raag mala today.

Secondly, since when was raag mala meant to be an index of the raags in Guru Granth Sahib? Does japji sahib have a heading saying mahala pehla? So this heading arguement does not hold water.

As for kartarpuri bir and damdami bir, they both contain raag mala. there is no bir that has not contained raag mala. There was one that was made, but the person who made that bir suffered a tradgic death after wards.

These are all the things on the face of it. also five sants got together at the sarovar at durbar sahib. They wrote on a two peices of paper. one saying raag mala gurbani hai and the other raag mala gurbani nahi hai. The one that floated it was requested to maharaj in ardas would be the correct answer. raag mala gurbani hai floated raag mala gurbani nahi hai sunk.

The raag mala explains the raags of the classical system as a whole with a combination of south indian raags and the north indian raags, it shows how raags have developed over time. The reason how we know that this was written by the Gurus is that raags which they have created are mentioned in raag mala like asa. The Gurus created this raag.

Also who said there were 31 raags in Maharaj. Some counts go as far as saying 64 when you count mishrat raags. 31 are the main headings, within them there are many thus showing how many variations there can be. Within Gauri raag there is bani in 12, Gauri Purbi, Gauri Guararie, Gauri Mala, Gauri Cheti, Gauri Bairagan, Gauri Deepaki and Gauri Purbi Deepaki top name a few of them. hence not only does raag mala talk about the variations but the bani in Guru Maharaj as well shows its significance.

Plus Maharaj in raag mala has used raags as metaphorical statements.

E.g. Raag Ek = Raag literally means measure but it also means colour and love. There is only One Colour and Love - Vaheguru.

so when maharaj says raag ek sang panch bairagan, sang alapai ato nanadan. It says that the five senses 8 pahar = nandan, worship this one raag = vaheguru in the sadh sangat.

This is an example of how raags have been equated with vaheguru.

The when maharaj says pritam raag bairo. Bairo is seen to be the main raag of the morning. so when maharaj says pritam raag bairo. First remember the primal, = vaheguru. The feeling of raag bairo is very serious and bhagati raag raag, it shows it shows stature and greatness hence you can see how such imagery can equate to the imagery of Vaheguru.

Im not saying that you should believe what im saying, in the end Guru has given you all a brain.

But just think, If Maharaj is the treasure of excellences and is the greatest of all. who are we to think there is a mistake in just because we dont understand it or it looks different to some thing else. who has given us the right to question the authenticity of the greatest thing on earth. when we say waho waho bani nirankar hai, there is no two ways about it, gurbani is God and then at the same time we say yeh its true apart from the last 1 and a half angs.

In the end sadh sanagt ji im a moorakh. Please forgive me if i have offended.

das

Rishipal Singh

[Gupt Singh]

hmmmm

this doesnt explain

the peculiar numbering system

the fact that "alam" had this in a love story before guruji compiled SGGS

the fact that bhai randhir singh could not find any "raas" in it in his experiment

and that akal takht went through a period of not reciting it

and a few birs dont have ragmalla

personally, now i am neither pro or anti ragmalla. im still waiting for clear cut evidence.

[Mr §ingh]

my vir RishiPal Singh ji's...post

as u meantioned...Jap JI sahib doesn't have

Mahala 1

THOUGH it does have

Ik OMkar...SatNam..KartaPurkh..NiBhau...Nivair..AKal Morat,...

Aajuni SAibang...GurParsad...JAp...Aad Sach...Jugad ..Such..NANAK

HOOSi BHi Saach

that explains it all doesn't it?

In all GUru JI's Bani

They've Always written NANAK @least 1nce in each Shabad/Bani etc...

Please read the RaagMala on :

www.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/1430.html

AND please tell me WHere Nanak is stated.

now I'm nto trying 2 argue or sumthihn

jus a simple question :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

//BHulla CHUkka Maaf

WJKK WJKF

[raagrishi]

This discussion will go on for ever and ever as people always think they know better than the Guru. However, a problem with the khalsa is that we dont know how to do research.

which bir does not have raag mala? apart from the one which made whose creator then died within a few days of making it?

The point is that people argue that there was a bir before the kartar puri bir which does not contain raag mala in it. But if this is true it is still irrelevant. Maharaj Shenshah Guru Gobind Singh bowed down infront of the damdami bir which if you do darshan which any one can has raag mala in it. Guru Gobind Singh was not thick. If we say raag mala is not bani, then we say Guru Gobind singh is false as his recitation to bhai mani singh who scribed the damdami bir hence is wrong. Since this is unthinkable then it leaves no other conclusion.

I cannot give reasons for why Bhai Randhir Singh had doubts about raag mala. and i wont begin to suggest either.

The love story idea is unsubstantiated. Ive read it and dont see how raag mala can correspond to it. it makes no sense.

it comes back to again understanding the raag concept and vidiya.

We all agree that Damdami Takhsal was set up by Guru Gobind Singh to teach bani and santiya. They believe in raag mala.

Sant Bhindranwala stressed its importance.

Takhsal have written a book in punjabi called raag mala gurbani hai, its a good book i suggest people read it.

As for mool mantra, this is something that i have come across which has been documented by academics such as bhai vir singh and prof sahib singh ji.

Guru ji gave us from EK Oankar to Gurpursad, the jap ji sahib form we see today was compiled by Guru Angad Dev Ji who put ad sach jugad sach hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach next to it. the jap ji in its form today hence was put together compiling the bani that maharaj had written. Thats why jap ji sahib is not in any particular raag. it was not made at any one time like sukhmani sahib or anand sahib was. ad sach jugad sach hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach was said in baghdad when the muslims asked who God is.

Yes akal takhat sahib didnt read for a while, but durbar sahib does and did always. so did the other takhats. The reason why akal takht sahib didnt was because of confusion.

Also we forget that Guru Granth Sahib is not just a spiritual granth but its a raag granth as well. every raag granth that has been made contained a raag mala. Why should Guru Granth Sahib be any different?

The british saw raag mala as a way of putting mischief in the panth as they knew raags were not understood and also that the style of playing raags and note structures had changed over the years. and to be honest it seems like they have won since 100 years later we are arguing about it.

before this turns into a heated debate as it did do a few years back lets just end it here with what was finally decided.

If you want to read raag mala then do so, if not then dont. This way peoples maryada or way of belief is not attacked and we may come closer to uniting under one flag.

Other wise this topic can go on for ever.

Lets try and understand ek oankar before we argue about atare das bis.

[nogroup singh]

I remember reading arguement on this topic and I liked the response was given by "Yuktanad singh". Im going to cut and paste here. it might end this confusion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

You have a compulsion to be precise

I have an ambition to be exhaustive

at price of not being concise. (Do you think I should try writing poetry?)

My verbose reply below may not satisfy you but I will try it anyway! First the answer to your questions:

<<Please let me know which Nanak or Bhagat is KARTA(composser) of RAG MALA?>>

I am sure you know that, it is not known who is the author of Ragmala. According to The Encyclopedia of Sikhism, there have been many versions of Ragmala. The one found in SGGS is just a few verses from one of these versions. It is not known whether the composer of this Ragmala was a Bhagat or not.

<< I LOVE TO OWN EVERYTHING WHAT COMES FROM MY GURU(guru granth) and Disown what is being passed to me in the name of Guru.>>

I was not aware that Ragmala is being passed on in a Guru?s name. How can it be when there is no Guru or bhagat shown as its writer?

Why should we consider Ragmala as an integral part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib? Please excuse me for my use of some strong words just to emphasize my points to all readers. Since you asked this question, they may appear to be, but they are not meant to be directed at you. It is late at night and I have to leave for vacation early in the morning. So please forgive my impatient tone this time.

What is the disadvantage of reading Ragmala? None whatsoever!

What are the disadvantages of not reading Ragmala? There are many:

a. Ragmala has been a part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib in, both of the original, the Kartarpuri and the Damdami Birs.

b. Some people contend that this Ragmala is not accurate therefore it should be rejected. This notion born out of ignorance. Perhaps, Guru simply chose a Ragmala without worrying about such details because it has no spiritual significance of its own. Had the Guru written an accurate Ragmala himself, one conformed to the actual number and the order of Ragas in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, it would have still served exactly the same purpose as this version does now.

c. Ragmala is simply there to reiterate, in the end, the fact that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is written in Ragas, nothing more and nothing less.

d. Please remember that the content of Ragmala does not promote something that is against Guru?s teaching.

e. Therefore, assuming it was included by Guru Ji, we should accept it without any further question. Or, do we really want to raise our children with an erroneous idea that Sri Guru Granth Sahib may have been altered and thus ?contaminated? already? We need to understand the long-term impact of such intelligent foolishness.

f. For the sake of argument, let us assume that Guru did not approve it and it was added by someone else and thus reject it. In that case, eventually people would want to exclude it from Guru Granth Sahib. Such an act, altering Sri Guru Granth Sahib just for a Ragmala, would be absolutely deplorable. Once started there would be no end in sight as to what else, according to our small brains, could be objectionable in Guru Granth Sahib. It is about time we woke up and realize as to which act is more harmful.

g. Time comes when we grow up from looking at our Guru with a critical eye and simply accept everything the Guru says (?Jo Gur Kahay Soee Bhal Maano Har Har Katha Niralee?). Then we start enjoying the Amrit that flows freely from the Guru without its being impeded by our own intellect that may be busy looking for useless details. Even a seemingly benign activity like avoiding the reading of Ragmala, analyzing the various ways Gurbani has been written or should have been written, etc., could be acceptable for the academics, however, it stands in our way of total submission to our Guru. Such acts stick out painfully like a sore thumb in a devout Sikh?s heart.

h. On a personal note, during years of participation in Spiritually charged culmination of an Akhand Paath, and the special atmosphere that accompanies the reading of Sawayeeye and Salok at the end of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Ragmala has been a natural part of this occasion. It has not turned me into a ?Hindu? and I cannot see myself rejecting a part of my Guru. Starting from 1Onkar to Atharah Das Bees ? all is Gurbani because it comes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

i. If all this can not convince us, I would simply, rather continue reading it and get it over with. For heaven?s sake, the Panth has too many other, much more important problems to take care of than to get entangled in frivolous issues like the Ragmala! Who started such useless controversies in the first place? Does anyone know? Can someone find out, perhaps from the AKJ?

Please forgive any mistakes here and correct them, as you have patiently done so in the past.

Yuktanand Singh

Saline, Michigan

source: http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....C2?OpenDocument

[Gupt Singh]

Ragmalla has been an issue since the 1800s not just an AKJ thing. Gyani Ditt Singh didnt believe in Ragmalla I believe.

And BTW there are birs without Ragmalla in it, and one extremely old bir without Ragmalla was destroyed in 84.

The Damdama Bir which Guru Gobind Singh bowed to is no longer here today. It was destroyed in Ahmad Shah Abdalis time, I believe, correct me if Im wrong.

Dont get me wrong, Im not anti Ragmalla, but I still havent seen any real, propa, clear cut evidence either way. Anti evidence is "its not accurate, its part of a love story". If I can see the original Kaam Kandhlan story and it doesnt have Ragmalla, then I will believe in it. Pro Ragmalla say "the Ragmalla wasnt in the earliest birs". Hopefully Im going to see the Kartarpuri Bir this summer, I will have a close examination of it if I'm allowed

Yes, it is a problem that the Panth do not do their research. I did a lot of research on subjects of Ragmalla and Keski, and I still havent got a clear cut answer!

[Guest]

Evidence Eh,

Is that what sikhi is all about???

Next thing you be like i need evidence on authencity of sggs...

get over it mate!!!

such a pathetic issue... Mahants deciding which is bani or which is not!!

[Gupt Singh]

gurbilas patshahi 9 talks about guru tegh bahadur losing his senses, then his head being cut off, going flying into the sky and landing in someones house.

should we accept such blasphemy since it is surrounded by better stuff? or should we disprove such facts with evidence?

there is also some suggestion that a few pauris have been interpolated into akal ustat. they dont fit the writers style, or subject. should we leave them there (they are in praise of a hindu god btw, and not in the way that other metaphorical compositions are) or disprove those?

ragmalla for me is a very important issue. we shoudlnt accept anything blindly. i wouldnt want my holy book to have stuff written that has come out of an erotic stories book!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

Let me reverse-hit the question on you??

In ur dictionary,

whats the main aim of a sikh???

Dont tell me the answer of deciding ragmmalla is a bani or not, dont tell me to decide whether to eat jhatka or not, dont tell me to decide whether which jathaband is best or not??

Please do answer my question directed to you...

[Gupt Singh]

the main aim of a sikh is to praise god.

but surely i could cut my hair, drink, do drugs, and munch meat, and i could still praise god.

i dont think my main aim is to gain salvation, or to become any happier - these are byproducts of pure praise of god. and praise of god can manifest in paath, noble acts, seva, etc etc.

so if a dodgy new jatha sprung up, and they changed kirpan to katar, would you have any problem taking amrit from them (if you werent amritdhari already)? i mean, youd still be an amritdhari.....and you wouldnt technically be any different, other than the fact that you carrying a punch dagger instead of a kirpan....

but hte difference is.....at high spiritual levels you probably COULD feel a differnece, just as at high spiritaul levels, not reading ragmalla could hinder me, or being confused on what gurbani is could do the same. in the same way. there are many, many, variations on the rehit from differnet jathas, and they cant all be right. one of them was the one that guruji imposed in 1699. and all i wish to do is follow that....once im on the right path ill hav no trouble accelerating str8 ahead!

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

what ever, i realised sommin, this generation is fucked in the sense of "aruging over things that were never argued b4.

i'm sorry 2 say it so rudly i beg ur pardon, but did u ever hear of such arguements back in da day.

arguements about phony autheticites....i was always brought up 2 believe that nihangs were just like us excpet nomadic and phung............ and i still believe that is how it is in punjab, cept for the few foriengers...

its us foriengers that do such arguements...of things which have b'n around for hunderdds of yrs and never b'n doubted

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Sangat Jio, you are all very ahead of me! You all are discussing what is on page 1430...I have yet to go beyond doing paath out of a gutka!!!

Shall I assume that everyone has read pages 1-1429 already, since we are discussing this last page?

[sukhsingh]

Shall I assume that everyone has read pages 1-1429 already, since we are discussing this last page?

good point

[Gupt Singh]

guys, i am not a scholar nor have i read every single page of SGGS ji.

if u notice I havent actually said Im for or against - Im just as confused as other people here.

This isnt a problem with this generation - like I said before, the debate has raged since the late 1800s. People as early back as Gyani Ditt Singh were anti Ragmalla.

Im not trying to stir up discontent or confuse the youth, I'm just searching for the truth! If Gyani Ditt Singh, who was an important part of the Singh Sabha Movement (and if it wasnt for them we'd probaby all be in a Hindu Mandir by now), has doubted the Ragmalla, then this is a problem that must be addressed, rather than swept away. This next generation of Sikhs might be the last generation that we get before everything turns pearshaped for the panth (or more so than already) and a decision needs to be made by the Akal Takht on this issue!

Im sorry if I take this a bit seriously, but to me the SGGS is the most important wordly/touchable/seeable object in my life, and if I have doubts on a part of that, it needs to be resolved.

[GABROO KHALISTAN DAH]

u can't doubt DHUN DHUN SIRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ

what wuz akaal takht sahibs decision

[Gupt Singh]

thats teh whole point.......akal takht havent made a decision...

during udhasi times....they recited it.......then after singh sabha they stopped.....then they started at durbar sahib.....then i think they started again but im not sure.

their current stance is recite it "according to local practise/tradition".

[HappyNYC]

WKWF,

Sorry I would I am a late in to the discussion for this topic. But first I would like to say to all those who doubt the contents, any contents, in S.S.G.S, that the biggest err. you can possibly make is doubt your Guru. Second for all my brothers and sisters who've made the comment(s) stating if you've read from "ang" (p. 1) till the Raag Mala Bani, its just not the way to answer someone who seeks to know. Although I would have to agree with one thing if you do read the S.S.G.S. you will come to know on your own the truth about most questions you have in mind. So then to make the long story short, IF ANYONE anyone who has/had doubts about Sri Raag Mala, PLEASE ASK ME ABOUT A PARTICULAR QUOTE OR WHAT IT IS THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. And also please tell me where or what part of this Bani you'd think to be anti-Gurmat, or what part of this Bani would you deem to contradict the remaining Bani.

WKWF

[Mr §ingh]

Sat Sri Akal:

Sangat Jio, you are all very ahead of me! You all are discussing what is on page 1430...I have yet to go beyond doing paath out of a gutka!!!

Shall I assume that everyone has read pages 1-1429 already, since we are discussing this last page?

Good point there..

and as I said b4

Have u reacherd PG 1430 in SGGSJ ?

WEll what i think is

first read the entire Gurbani..and understand it..

and start "vicharna" about RaagMala when u reach there ....aight?

//bhulla CHukka Maaf

WJKK WJKF

[Gupt Singh]

I am not pro ragmalla simply because neither was Bhai Randhir Singh.

He is one of the greatest saints we have had and if he says there is no Rasa in it, and it is not Gurbani, then I am inclined to believe him.

Read the article on AKJ site.

[raagrishi]

To be honest i respect bhai randhir singh a lot. my grand dad and him were good friends and my grand dad was the secretary of the gurdwara they founded many years ago in model town ludhiana. however, in those days raag mala was read.

what i am suggesting is which has been mentioned by many that people are going to have different views on this topic. If people have different view points and have different stances. so be it. may be this too is maharajs game that is being played with us? who knows? all i know is it is topics like this that are spliting the panth. The first time i heard of any debate in raag mala it shook me totally. how can any one ever think there is a discreprency in my Guru? If there is a discreprency in the Guru that i bow down to, if there is a discreprency in the Guru that has given me everything and that I will die for then obviously that Guru is not perfect and I am bowing down to something fake. I believe sikhi to be the truth hence on a spiritual sense leaving all the academic arguements to one side, i am not inclined to believe raag mala is false. Are we higher than the Guru now to know what is false and what is not? Is that the stage we are at where we seem to think we know more then others? Its mindless blasphamous topics like this that really make me think how messed up the panth is at times. We know nothing, we have no avastha (spiritual level) we have not even tasted simran. we have never practised the path of sikhi as we should have done and automatically we become experts in it and authority to challenge what is bani and what is not.

Maharaj has clearly stated

Waho Waho bani nirankar hai, tis jevad avar na koi

Hail hail bani is Omni Present (Prevades every where hence is God), There is no other like it.

If this is the state and stature of Bani, then we are commenting on what is God and what is not? How the hell and when did we ever reach this level?

I am sure bhai randhir singh had his reasons and i respect that only because of his kamai and the amount of seva that he did do, but there are many other mahapurakhs and bhram gyanis who disagree with his statement on raag mala but respect his kamai at the same time. Baba Nand Singh, Baba Ishar Singh both Rare and Nanaksar, Baba Puran Singh (Kericho), Sant Attar Singh, Sant Teja Singh, Baba Harnam Singh (se kehneya), Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, Baba Thakur Singh, Baba Sucha Singh (Jawadi Takhsal), Baba Karam Singh (Balo Wal), Baba Mani Singh (Smethwick, Birmingham)

How many more names do we need?

I am not doing nindiya of any group or sant so please do not misunderstand me, all i am saying is that ok we follow examples from people who have been great spiritual leaders of the past, but how can we put disbelief in something in maharaj when we do not even understand ek oankar.

what does ek oankar mean im still trying to find out? No one can tell me as no one here has experienced ek oankar. Once we have realised ek oankar we would have experienced everything and we would have merged back into Vaheguru.

We have many enemies as it is the musalman, hindus christians etc, why the hell do we continue to fight amongst ourselves.

Its childish, it is almost like play ground bullying in a school the way we act. I look at things like this and think whats the point of it all to get involved in events and forums and stuff when people always want to do nindiya of each other. The forums and events are places to bring people near to sikhi and spread love like this forum has been doing. It is not for spreading controversy. So if you have pyar for Sikhi and your Guru, then dont do it. simple.

bhul chuk maaf

Rishipal Singh

[Gupt Singh]

yeh i understand your point bhai

for me it all just comes down to the fact that bhai sahib said all the SGGS had a specific rasa apart from the last page ragmalla which had nothing. i have alot of trust in bhai sahib and alot of stuff he said like keski is a kakkar, was only very recently backed up by those such as pyara singh padam who found accounts from the vahees of bhatt.

if someone cud explain that i wud believe in it. and the controversy with alams kaam kandlaan story or whatever is sorta a bit dodgy.

yeh i know its spreading controversy but i cant really talk about this stuff with family, they are all antiragmalla and wont even entertain the idea me questioning that, and if i go to the gurdwara they are mostly pro. the only place i can get a balanced view is from the net, or books, etc. sorry-ness.