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Nirgun and Sargun discussion??


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I posted this on sikhportal according to best of my knowledge by discussion it with freinds and by reading mahapursh books.... i wanted to share this with sangat..so i can get feed back on nihal's query and my post :D

Nihal's query:

Some theologist also argue that sargun and nirgun form cant exist at the same time, where as gurbani propogates the existence of both at the same time, Can you provide a theological argument that they do both exist at the same time, Form and Formless. Maybe of the topic but interesting to know.

You are right Gurbani propagates existence of both (nirgun and sargun) at the same time.

For example- Gurbani talks about it clearly:

Sargun Nirankaar Sun Smadhi Aap, Apan Kia Nanka Apan Hi Fir Jaap ||

Nirgun transcedents itself not fully but attributes/qualities into Sargun form. As Sikhs we do not beleive in incarnation of God. i think after doing deep search on this topic and exploring all the gurbani tuks talking about it..one comes to know that holy person being alive cannot fully merge with nirgun..they are limited to whatever attributes/qualities nirgun transcedents into them..however, after leaving panj bhotak chola (this body made of five elements) since holy saints negates their individualistic mind/their consciouness diseased with 5 vices...they are merged fully with Nirankar..that why in sukhmani sahib it says- Bhramgyani App Nirankar ||

Bhagat Kabir also says- Jis Maran Jagat Darie Mera Mann Anand, Maran hiii Paaie Poora Parmanand ||

Note: Anand, Parmanand words are used in that verse...one is bliss before leaving body and second is supreme bliss after leaving body.

Nirgun and Sargun has to exist at the same time...where nirgun transcdent some of its quality in sargun form to spread all of its attributes to people....if there is no sargun.. there is no creation...but there is only nirgun in its sun samadhi...but during the creation- Nirgun and Sargun must exist simentiounously.

we beleive in complete negatation of "jiv" atman..after negetation there is no jiv but atma-paratma(nirgun)...atma goes back to its orginal state which is-

~ Deh Nahi Tu (You are not body), Tu Sat Hai (you are the truth), Tu Chit Hai ( you are the super consciousness), Tu Anand Saroop Hai (you are the bliss manifestation of Vahiguroo/God) ~...

soul is [sat Chit AnandSvaroop]- supreme truth, supreme consciousness and supreme bliss..

I don't know if my post offers any theological argument...i posted what i read from sikhi spiritual school thought which is Advait Sikh Gurmat Sidhant...!

This is also very deep for me...i m learning as we speak.

may be tsingh pheena, hari, drawof and others can enlighten more on this subject.

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