despair...anti-sants campaign?!

[Black Goddess]

Yo,

Im writing this more as a way of releasing some frustration and anger to be honest, nothing else, I know most people have opposite views to me but bear with me. This is the only forum where I can be comfortable saying this.

Ive noticed that nowadays if you're anti-sant you're cool and acceptable to the panth, and otherwise you're a hindu or misled fool with no brain. I would disagree and call these so called panthic people brainwashed. I dont understand why and how they have sooooo much hatred and bitterness towards sants.

Our religion believes that one day the soul merges with God, and this ultimate goal is what we're working towards, how can it be possible that so far in the history of mankind noone has reached this stage? There are, and has to be if we follow any logic, mahapurush in the world now and in the past.

This whole matha tekking issue is so silly, we clean the sangats shoes for humility and thats a form of matha tekking, we bow down and touch our grandparents, parents feet and thats a cultural thing and to touch some gursikh's feet is suddenly a crime.

I have been called sooo names since Ive openly declared what I follow and dont believe in, people go so far as to attack you personally, its just so pathetic.

What keeps me going is the way these mahapurush react to this type of nindia, the way they brush it off as if its nothing, the way they smile at the nindaks swearing at them, the way they think its necessary for them to be successful.

Maskeen Jee said before he died and one of my dad's friends has the book in which he wrote that the panth is slowly gonna destroy itself, unless its led by mahapurush and nirmalae saadh, I can see the progress beginning already

[Guest]

I can completely understand your frustration ji..yesterday i debunked this stupid article " disturbing misuse of word sant" by soo called akj panthic sevadars..here is my reply..i posted on sikhportal and email the author of that article:

In all of the above GurbaNNi verses, the word "Sant" or "Saadh" is meant only for Guru Sahib Ji. In fact in all of GurbaNNi whenever the word "Sant" is used in the singular form, it is meant only for Guru Sahib. In the plural form, it is meant for all GurSikhs in general, but never for an individual. These interpretations are accepted by all prominent Scholars of the Khalsa Panth, but then why is this word, "Sant", so widely mis-used ?

The word that was only to be used for Guru Sahib in the singular form, and for all GurSikhs in the plural form, has now become a TITLE (Khittab) that has not only lost its original meaning, but has brought on many of the ills into our community.

1. Sant/Sadhu word is not only meant for Guru Sahiban. It was meant for anyone who has reached that state of mind according to bhai kahn singh nabha

Anyone who has control over senses -man indiraya ie- 5 senses (smell, touch, hear, taste sight)/ 5 vices- ego, lust, anger, attachment, greed is a saint/sant !!!!!!!!!! whether it's- bhai, gursikh, baba, prof, doctor, nurse !!!!!!!!

If you cannot accept this defination of bhai sahib kahn singh nabha then i m sorry but i cannot do anything else to make you understand.

In a nutshell- Bhai Kahn SIngh Nabha was highly highly qualified vidvan who was first and last person who wrote dictionary of gurbani known as "Mahan Kosh"... in other words- wrote meaning of each gurbani word by word.

For this mahan seva - he is widely respected for his works not only by puratan sampardha but by your SGPC, SINGH SABHA, TAT KHALSA, AKJ etc etc.

His Mahan Kosh (dictionary of siri guru granth sahib) can be found @

http://www.ik13.com/MahanKosh/Mahankosh.pdf

Sant/bhai/gurmukh/bhramgyani/sadhu/bhai/baba prefix are used interchangably..and has been used both

eternaly and externly in the context when refering to an "Naam Abhiyasi" individual.

2. If Sant word is referred to Guru Sahib .. therefore one entity and how come gurbani repeaditily indicidates sant and guru as two different state of mind. For example:

Bhagat Kabir Says :

Tirath Gaye Ek Phal, Sant mile phal char, Guru Mele Phal enek hai kahit kabir vichar ||

Going to pilgrame you get one phaul(fruit), meeting an saint - you get four phal(fruits),

but meeting an Guru you will be blessed with anek(infinite) phauls(fruits).

This tuk itself shreads this propaganda of sant word in gurbani refers to guru sahib.. and there are many more quotes from gurbani which proves guru and sant are two different state of minds...

In words of sant baba jagjit singh ji on this propaganda from his tape: !

If Sants word is referred to Guru Sahib as people claim. Then Who is Nirankar in Sargun form (human form)?? Guru Sahib were Guru Avtars (highest of highest) - Nirgun(non transcedent god) trascedents its most of the attributes/virtues in Siri Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar as Guru Avtar. If Siri Guru Nanak dev nirankar was a sant then he would have been nit avtar not GURU AVTAR.

There are 6 types of avtar that God transcedents itself its' attributes/virtues

1. Ansa Avtar- his is the avtar taken by rightious kings such as Raja Janak

2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers

3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers

4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas.

5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki

6. Pooran Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan

Guru Avtar- That is Guru Sahib(Jagat Guru) not only for Sikh.remember Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for all humanity... There will never be a greater avtar that will take place. Guru Avtar is great of all 6 of them... I also think Mahatama Budda is also Guru Avtar.. !

Please listen to the first part of the Japji Sahib Katha by Giani Thakur Singh Ji on Gurmatveechar.com where this is all explained and also the divans by Sant Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji Harkhowalae which are in my folder on the gurseva hub

Even Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale (as he should be called) used to say that he was not a "Sant", and people were always pasting this title on him.

So what's a point? No Real Sant never say call me sant. They love to use baba jarnail singh bhindranwaley as their propaganda..In his tape on Sant baba gurbachan singh ji's bhindranvwaley barsi.. He beautifully labels his predecessor as - Siriman 108 Sant Gyani Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindravwaley.

In August edition of "Sura" magazine a brief article on this subject by Giani Gurditt Singh Ji (Singh Sabha) was printed. Appropriately it was titled : "Panthak Eakta Day JaaRRi(n) Paleetay". It criticized the mis-use of this word, and the dangers to Panthic Unity with its mis-use. Giani Ji, mentioned that the mis-use of this word started in the last century when people began to refer to the respectable Baba Attar Singh Ji (Mastuanna) as "Sant Ji", "Sant Ji Maharaj", and so on. Thereafter, to most of the Sikh public, he was known as "Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuannaywale." The mis-use of this word quickly spread throughout the Panth, unfortunately, now it is not too uncommon to see a so-called "Sant" in every village in Punjab. The illiterate, rural Sikhs, venerate these individuals to the point of GuruShip. In actuality, it can be said that these individuals, are not Sikhs (disciples) of Guru Granth Sahib, but of these so-called "Sants."

Perhaps Giani Gurditt Singh didn't do any research on bhai kahan singh nabha mohan kosh... I agree Sant word is widely abused by people but so as labels like bhai sahib and gyani/scholars ... so why target the words itself why not target the people who are fake people self proclaimed sants, gyani , bhai sahib, scholars??

Bhai Randhir Singh, a revolutionary freedom fighter and mystical theologian, who was one of the only individuals to receive HukamNamahs from all (then) four Takahts was staunchly against the mis-use of the word "Sant.", and refused to be called a Sant throughout his life. In his book titled "Sant Padd NirNNay" he dwells into detail, the use of words like Sant, Saaadh, Sadhoo, and Bhagat, in GurbaNNi, and their proper interpretation.

Referring to the "Sant" situation, Bhai Sahib states:

"..Guru Panth da eh Lazzmi Faraz hai Ki Ohna Noo(n) Is Sant-Dumbtta di Bimmaree [disease] toa(n) HuNN Toa(n) Aroagatt [cure] Keeta Javay"

Yes this has become a disease that has infested almost all the Jathaybandis of our Panth, and we must rid the Panth of this disease, otherwise it will rot us all..

Looking a little deeper into such Jathaybandies, one finds that along with the title SANT, a so-called "Gaddee" is passed on from "Sant" to "Sant", just as the Kookays, and the Nirankaris passed on their "GuruShip" to their successors. IS THIS GURMAT, OR PURE BRAHMANISM AT ITS PEAK !!!!

It is as Guru Sahib said : "Bipran Ki Reet"

If we look closely at the derays of these "Sants" we will not be surprised to see many worthless rituals and practices borrowed from Nirmalas and Hindu ascetics

If Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has said this then he looses crediblity too (no offense to his bhagti because in his same book he gives label of sant to baba jawala singh ji.

There exists an "elitist" organization called the "Sant-Smaj", reportedly , it comprises of dozens and dozens of these so-called "Sants." The Panth needs to be more vigilant about the motives of such organizations. What is their purpose in the Panth, why are they trying to validate their existence as "Sants" ?

Sant Samaj is not a sant factory mind you.. Sant Samaj was founded through many great saints in the panth belong to different sampardha's orders created/blessed by guru sahiban (nirmaley, nihangs, taksal, udasi , sevapanthis).. what gave bhai randhir singh ji and his chelas "AUTHORITY" to criticise orders/knights of the panth which were created by Guru Sahib. It's not like akj represent Siri Akaal Takth Sahib anyway.

Does an individual in the Sikh Panth have the right to hold this TITLE ? Absolutely not, according to GurbaNNi all GurSikhs are equal, no one is higher or lower. There are no ranks in the Panth. We are all Bhais, with equal status and respect for all.

Read Sukhmani Sahib..you will see what authority individual state of mind has to completely deserve this title

Have we ever thought :

Who gave them the "privilege" to be called "Sants" ?

Real Sant's never called themselves sants however if devootee's been through individual spiritual expereince in the sangat of these high enlightened saints...devootee's has a every right according to own sharda to label that holy person as sant/bhramgyani/mahaatma/mahapursh/tat vaida/tar kali pursh because from a devoote point of view- they completely deserve the title which they do if they don't admit is because of the "Humility"

What is their relationship to their chalays, as compared to Guru Sahib and "normal" GurSikhs?

Their relationship is same as bhai randhir singh ji's relationship towards his akj chelas.

Why is there a need for them to be called a "Sant" ?

they don't call themselves it's the devootes describe them as saints... which they fully deserve

Why do so many of them have links to GOI politicians ?

Why not ask GOI politicans?? Sants are for everybody regardless of color, creed, race, religion. Loads of politicans came to sant jarnail singh bhindranwaley are they implying sant had malicious links with GOI"?

Are they spiritually higher than GurSikhs like Bhai Gurdas Ji, Baba Ajit Singh Ji, Baba Jujhar Singh Ji, Baba Fateh Singh Ji, Baba Joravar Singh Ji, Bhai Nand Singh Ji, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Baba Deep Singh Ji, and Akali Phula Singh Ji ?

Now their query on how come there were no sants before 1900's ..it be very childish to think there were no sants before 1900's ...they were by god's grace were loads of sants right from the beginning to benefit human kind..however i agree with you, offically sant which is not a degree but state of mind title became more offical when "Cheif Khalsa Divan" with members like- Bhai Vir Singh Ji and other singhs from sgpc gave "Baba Attar Singh Ji Mustaneywaley" title of - Sirimoni Sant ..now at this point- only thing happened was that Sant title became more offical ..people have been using that title from beginning but in a different for example- so on and so baba ji has a sant avastha..only diffference after cheif khalsa divan gave this title to baba attar singh ji mustaneywaley that now shardlu's can use title- sant so on and so forth to show the respect and pay the full respect these naam abhyasi individual which mind you they fully deserve.

Why has this word been so much mis-used ? When will we put a stop to its mis-use ?

Yes it's been misused so is everything in sikhi..why they are soo hell bound on word sant?? I am sure heard of news where gyani/bhai molested a small child...do you see us like minded individual start internet morcha against label gyani/bhai ?

As stated before many of these "Sants" have the auspicious of GOI, we as Sikhs have a right to question these individuals and their followers as to why they are called "Sants", Sikh organizations, Gurdwaras, and the general public, should openly boycott them and challenge their fake TITLES. Remember the issue hear is not necessarily the individuals themselves, but the mis-use of the word "SANT." Not only is its mis-use disturbing to our society, but it is entirely against GURMAT.

Don't Sing it bring the proof.. ..i can go ahead at say - Babar khalsa has major links with GOI to distort image of khalistan...but without proof?? does my claim looks credible... NO !!!!!!..

This article has some MAJOR crediblity issues

OVER AND OUT !

[Har Naal Pyar]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

yeah I have to agree with that, if u believe in sants ur lost lol.

and if u dont believe in sants ur right, erm forget abt respecting and tolerating the others views.

so sant followers should sit back and let them say their lies against sants and if they defend them then they are hypnotised or something.

roll eyes ten times.

i think we need a face to face debate in the UK where everyone can calmly discuss stuff and teach the anti baba sikhs to get a grip and calm down instead of being so full of hankar.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh