sant

[x_suman_x]

It should be Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale

just like Baba Thakur Singh

Sant is not a title, its an avastha (state) of ones mind. Its sad that today some people like to put the word Sant in front of their name (not to imply that baba jarnail singh did) and as soon as they do people start doing their "puja". again, Sant is not a title one can put in front of their name.

[mloco]

he was a Sant

what makes you think he wasnt?

I have it on pretty high authority that he is a sant

[x_suman_x]

he was a sant sipahi.

but remember he was a normal human being.

as great as he was he was not in the same league as our gurus who were true sant sipahis.

“Khalistan Zindabad! “

“Raj Karaega Khalsa!â€

“Bhindranwala Sant Sipahi Jinay Sutee Kaum Jaigaiee!â€

(Bhindranwala the Saint Soldier who woke up a sleeping nation).

“Bhindranwalay Dee Soach Tay Pehra Diangay Thok Kay!â€

(We will stand firmly with the ideology of Sant Bhindranwale!).

“Jo Singhan Naal Takraigaa, Choor Choor Ho Jaigaa!â€

(Those who oppose the Singhs will be crushed!).

“Na Hindi Na Hindustan, Lai kay RehNaa Khalistan!â€

(Not Hindi nor Hindustan, we will only rest after taking Khalistan!).

[Black Goddess]

So first Suman you say he was a Baba, now you say he was a Sant-Sipahi, make up your mind. A Sant Sipahi also is a Sant, as well as a warrior, yet on the other thread you very proudly mentioned there is NO SANT whatsoever apart from Guru Granth Sahib Jee. It seems your intention is only to start arguments and stir things up, why dont you concentrate on your own avastha instead of worrying about titles, and others? Im sure its what Guru Jee would tell all of us to do.

[Black Goddess]

he was a sant sipahi.

but remember he was a normal human being.

So he was a Sant Sipahi as you said there, but a normal human being Sant Sipahi, hmm interesting.

as great as he was he was not in the same league as our gurus who were true sant sipahis.

So he was a fake Sant Sipahi?

[x_suman_x]

i am not stirring things up or trying to cause arguments i just think that a normal human being can be a sant sipahi but only to a certain extent

[x_suman_x]

he was not a fake sant siphai

DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH

[x_suman_x]

DON'T PRESUME TO KNOW WHAT I THINK.

WHAT I MEANT WAS THAT OUR GURU JIS WERE THE TRUE SANT SIPAHIS AND ALL SIKHS SHOULD TRY TO BE A SANT SIPAHI. JARNAIL SINGH WAS THIS BUT A HUMAN BEING CAN ONLY BE A SANT SIPAHI TO A CERTAIN EXTENT

[x_suman_x]

So first Suman you say he was a Baba, now you say he was a Sant-Sipahi, make up your mind. A Sant Sipahi also is a Sant, as well as a warrior, yet on the other thread you very proudly mentioned there is NO SANT whatsoever apart from Guru Granth Sahib Jee. It seems your intention is only to start arguments and stir things up, why dont you concentrate on your own avastha instead of worrying about titles, and others? Im sure its what Guru Jee would tell all of us to do.

I am a bit confused on how to explain myself properly to u. i didn't explain myself fully on the other thread but don't personally attack me

[Niranjana]

yes yes...everyone is equal but some of us as more equal than others...I see...becoming very clear now!

[Guest]

Suman read this carefully..it will open up your horizons on sants in general. It's about the article that exist on panthkhalsa - http://www.panthkhalsa.org/gurmat/gurmat.php#SANT

Distrubing usage of word sant.. you will see how your ideaology - oh there is no sant in this world is flawed.

i debunked this stupid article by grace of sant mandali and guru sahib... this article " disturbing misuse of word sant" by soo called akj panthic sevadars..here is my reply..i posted on sikhportal and email the author of that article:

In all of the above GurbaNNi verses, the word "Sant" or "Saadh" is meant only for Guru Sahib Ji. In fact in all of GurbaNNi whenever the word "Sant" is used in the singular form, it is meant only for Guru Sahib. In the plural form, it is meant for all GurSikhs in general, but never for an individual. These interpretations are accepted by all prominent Scholars of the Khalsa Panth, but then why is this word, "Sant", so widely mis-used ?

The word that was only to be used for Guru Sahib in the singular form, and for all GurSikhs in the plural form, has now become a TITLE (Khittab) that has not only lost its original meaning, but has brought on many of the ills into our community.

1. Sant/Sadhu word is not only meant for Guru Sahiban. It was meant for anyone who has reached that state of mind according to bhai kahn singh nabha

Anyone who has control over senses -man indiraya ie- 5 senses (smell, touch, hear, taste sight)/ 5 vices- ego, lust, anger, attachment, greed is a saint/sant !!!!!!!!!! whether it's- bhai, gursikh, baba, prof, doctor, nurse !!!!!!!!

If you cannot accept this defination of bhai sahib kahn singh nabha then i m sorry but i cannot do anything else to make you understand.

In a nutshell- Bhai Kahn SIngh Nabha was highly highly qualified vidvan who was first and last person who wrote dictionary of gurbani known as "Mahan Kosh"... in other words- wrote meaning of each gurbani word by word.

For this mahan seva - he is widely respected for his works not only by puratan sampardha but by your SGPC, SINGH SABHA, TAT KHALSA, AKJ etc etc.

His Mahan Kosh (dictionary of siri guru granth sahib) can be found @

http://www.ik13.com/MahanKosh/Mahankosh.pdf

Sant/bhai/gurmukh/bhramgyani/sadhu/bhai/baba prefix are used interchangably..and has been used both

eternaly and externly in the context when refering to an "Naam Abhiyasi" individual.

2. If Sant word is referred to Guru Sahib .. therefore one entity and how come gurbani repeaditily indicidates sant and guru as two different state of mind. For example:

Bhagat Kabir Says :

Tirath Gaye Ek Phal, Sant mile phal char, Guru Mele Phal enek hai kahit kabir vichar ||

Going to pilgrame you get one phaul(fruit), meeting an saint - you get four phal(fruits),

but meeting an Guru you will be blessed with anek(infinite) phauls(fruits).

This tuk itself shreads this propaganda of sant word in gurbani refers to guru sahib.. and there are many more quotes from gurbani which proves guru and sant are two different state of minds...

In words of sant baba jagjit singh ji on this propaganda from his tape: !

If Sants word is referred to Guru Sahib as people claim. Then Who is Nirankar in Sargun form (human form)?? Guru Sahib were Guru Avtars (highest of highest) - Nirgun(non transcedent god) trascedents its most of the attributes/virtues in Siri Guru Nanak Dev Nirankar as Guru Avtar. If Siri Guru Nanak dev nirankar was a sant then he would have been nit avtar not GURU AVTAR.

There are 6 types of avtar that God transcedents itself its' attributes/virtues

1. Ansa Avtar- his is the avtar taken by rightious kings such as Raja Janak

2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers

3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers

4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas.

5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki

6. Pooran Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan

Guru Avtar- That is Guru Sahib(Jagat Guru) not only for Sikh.remember Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for all humanity... There will never be a greater avtar that will take place. Guru Avtar is great of all 6 of them... I also think Mahatama Budda is also Guru Avtar.. !

Please listen to the first part of the Japji Sahib Katha by Giani Thakur Singh Ji on Gurmatveechar.com where this is all explained and also the divans by Sant Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji Harkhowalae which are in my folder on the gurseva hub

Even Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale (as he should be called) used to say that he was not a "Sant", and people were always pasting this title on him.

So what's a point? No Real Sant never say call me sant. They love to use baba jarnail singh bhindranwaley as their propaganda..In his tape on Sant baba gurbachan singh ji's bhindranvwaley barsi.. He beautifully labels his predecessor as - Siriman 108 Sant Gyani Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindravwaley.

In August edition of "Sura" magazine a brief article on this subject by Giani Gurditt Singh Ji (Singh Sabha) was printed. Appropriately it was titled : "Panthak Eakta Day JaaRRi(n) Paleetay". It criticized the mis-use of this word, and the dangers to Panthic Unity with its mis-use. Giani Ji, mentioned that the mis-use of this word started in the last century when people began to refer to the respectable Baba Attar Singh Ji (Mastuanna) as "Sant Ji", "Sant Ji Maharaj", and so on. Thereafter, to most of the Sikh public, he was known as "Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuannaywale." The mis-use of this word quickly spread throughout the Panth, unfortunately, now it is not too uncommon to see a so-called "Sant" in every village in Punjab. The illiterate, rural Sikhs, venerate these individuals to the point of GuruShip. In actuality, it can be said that these individuals, are not Sikhs (disciples) of Guru Granth Sahib, but of these so-called "Sants."

Perhaps Giani Gurditt Singh didn't do any research on bhai kahan singh nabha mohan kosh... I agree Sant word is widely abused by people but so as labels like bhai sahib and gyani/scholars ... so why target the words itself why not target the people who are fake people self proclaimed sants, gyani , bhai sahib, scholars??

Bhai Randhir Singh, a revolutionary freedom fighter and mystical theologian, who was one of the only individuals to receive HukamNamahs from all (then) four Takahts was staunchly against the mis-use of the word "Sant.", and refused to be called a Sant throughout his life. In his book titled "Sant Padd NirNNay" he dwells into detail, the use of words like Sant, Saaadh, Sadhoo, and Bhagat, in GurbaNNi, and their proper interpretation.

Referring to the "Sant" situation, Bhai Sahib states:

"..Guru Panth da eh Lazzmi Faraz hai Ki Ohna Noo(n) Is Sant-Dumbtta di Bimmaree [disease] toa(n) HuNN Toa(n) Aroagatt [cure] Keeta Javay"

Yes this has become a disease that has infested almost all the Jathaybandis of our Panth, and we must rid the Panth of this disease, otherwise it will rot us all..

Looking a little deeper into such Jathaybandies, one finds that along with the title SANT, a so-called "Gaddee" is passed on from "Sant" to "Sant", just as the Kookays, and the Nirankaris passed on their "GuruShip" to their successors. IS THIS GURMAT, OR PURE BRAHMANISM AT ITS PEAK !!!!

It is as Guru Sahib said : "Bipran Ki Reet"

If we look closely at the derays of these "Sants" we will not be surprised to see many worthless rituals and practices borrowed from Nirmalas and Hindu ascetics

If Bhai Randhir Singh Ji has said this then he looses crediblity too (no offense to his bhagti because in his same book he gives label of sant to baba jawala singh ji.

There exists an "elitist" organization called the "Sant-Smaj", reportedly , it comprises of dozens and dozens of these so-called "Sants." The Panth needs to be more vigilant about the motives of such organizations. What is their purpose in the Panth, why are they trying to validate their existence as "Sants" ?

Sant Samaj is not a sant factory mind you.. Sant Samaj was founded through many great saints in the panth belong to different sampardha's orders created/blessed by guru sahiban (nirmaley, nihangs, taksal, udasi , sevapanthis).. what gave bhai randhir singh ji and his chelas "AUTHORITY" to criticise orders/knights of the panth which were created by Guru Sahib. It's not like akj represent Siri Akaal Takth Sahib anyway.

Does an individual in the Sikh Panth have the right to hold this TITLE ? Absolutely not, according to GurbaNNi all GurSikhs are equal, no one is higher or lower. There are no ranks in the Panth. We are all Bhais, with equal status and respect for all.

Read Sukhmani Sahib..you will see what authority individual state of mind has to completely deserve this title

Have we ever thought :

Who gave them the "privilege" to be called "Sants" ?

Real Sant's never called themselves sants however if devootee's been through individual spiritual expereince in the sangat of these high enlightened saints...devootee's has a every right according to own sharda to label that holy person as sant/bhramgyani/mahaatma/mahapursh/tat vaida/tar kali pursh because from a devoote point of view- they completely deserve the title which they do if they don't admit is because of the "Humility"

What is their relationship to their chalays, as compared to Guru Sahib and "normal" GurSikhs?

Their relationship is same as bhai randhir singh ji's relationship towards his akj chelas.

Why is there a need for them to be called a "Sant" ?

they don't call themselves it's the devootes describe them as saints... which they fully deserve

Why do so many of them have links to GOI politicians ?

Why not ask GOI politicans?? Sants are for everybody regardless of color, creed, race, religion. Loads of politicans came to sant jarnail singh bhindranwaley are they implying sant had malicious links with GOI"?

Are they spiritually higher than GurSikhs like Bhai Gurdas Ji, Baba Ajit Singh Ji, Baba Jujhar Singh Ji, Baba Fateh Singh Ji, Baba Joravar Singh Ji, Bhai Nand Singh Ji, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Baba Deep Singh Ji, and Akali Phula Singh Ji ?

Now their query on how come there were no sants before 1900's ..it be very childish to think there were no sants before 1900's ...they were by god's grace were loads of sants right from the beginning to benefit human kind..however i agree with you, offically sant which is not a degree but state of mind title became more offical when "Cheif Khalsa Divan" with members like- Bhai Vir Singh Ji and other singhs from sgpc gave "Baba Attar Singh Ji Mustaneywaley" title of - Sirimoni Sant ..now at this point- only thing happened was that Sant title became more offical ..people have been using that title from beginning but in a different for example- so on and so baba ji has a sant avastha..only diffference after cheif khalsa divan gave this title to baba attar singh ji mustaneywaley that now shardlu's can use title- sant so on and so forth to show the respect and pay the full respect these naam abhyasi individual which mind you they fully deserve.

Why has this word been so much mis-used ? When will we put a stop to its mis-use ?

Yes it's been misused so is everything in sikhi..why they are soo hell bound on word sant?? I am sure heard of news where gyani/bhai molested a small child...do you see us like minded individual start internet morcha against label gyani/bhai ?

As stated before many of these "Sants" have the auspicious of GOI, we as Sikhs have a right to question these individuals and their followers as to why they are called "Sants", Sikh organizations, Gurdwaras, and the general public, should openly boycott them and challenge their fake TITLES. Remember the issue hear is not necessarily the individuals themselves, but the mis-use of the word "SANT." Not only is its mis-use disturbing to our society, but it is entirely against GURMAT.

Don't Sing it bring the proof.. ..i can go ahead at say - Babar khalsa has major links with GOI to distort image of khalistan...but without proof?? does my claim looks credible... NO !!!!!!..

This article has some MAJOR crediblity issues

OVER AND OUT !

[Har Naal Pyar]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

just a general reply to what was said above.

Suman it has been discussed several times and no one is changin their views so when you randomly started this topic again, I think some people reasonably assumed you were simply having fun trying to start a fight.

Nevertheless I realise it is an important topic that is worth discussing but past experience suggests otherwise lol. Although it would be great if it could be discussed intelligently, everyone starts to insult everyone and it gets personal and that creates not so nice feelings between pro and anti sant believers to some extent.

So I would love to see this topic discussed without people getting angry and attacking others simply because perhaps they have a weak argument and cannot defend their view. No offence intended to anyone.

In reply to another comment, well we are all equal as human beings but whether we are all equal in how close our soul is to reaching and becoming one with God is in my opinion a different matter and there we are not equal, some are ahead of us and some have been left far behind.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

[Black Goddess]

When someone quotes you they put your own words in your mouth, lol.

[mloco]

pisht

who said all human beings are equal? this isnt a feminist board

Gurbani says to hold yourself below all those around you, not to look at them as equals.

[sag_roti]

Bhindrawale , didn't his actions directly/indirectly lead of deaths of thousands of innocents in the years that followed 84. I don't think that makes a sant.

[mloco]

doesnt matter what you think, its a subjective measure

sant is a measure of avastha

- those people died under persecution - its better to die for truth than live for a lie.

What exactly did Sant Jarnail Singh do that warranted an attack on the Golden Temple? All he asked for was fair treatment.

[sag_roti]

its better to die for truth than live for a lie

. Thats what you think. Tell that to the families of people that died ( Sikh & Hindus ) who were not interested in all this,but who will continue to suffer all their lives anyway.

[x_suman_x]

i am from one of the families affected by mass killings of young sikhs and all my family are in support of janail singh for standing up to say the truth. he didn't do anything to warrant the attack on darbar sahi. what about the attack on the 38 other gurdwaras?????

[x_suman_x]

.... N/A

[x_suman_x]

but the gurus were sent by god.. they were true sants. what i mean to say is that no matter how hard somebody tries they will never be in the same league. i have soooooooooo much respect 4 jarnail singh. my father stayed with him in amritsar 4 a while.

there are so many fake sants out there. they do things such as building hospitals, schools etc and attach theur names to it and are arrogant. ppl bow down to them. a true sant will never allow this. i'm not sure that i'm explaining myself properly to u all.

[mloco]

why not?

its huge seva to build hospitals and schools

what do you want them to do with the money sangat gives them? buy cars?

[Guest SAdmin]

Sikh history is full of gems. I think we need to start reading Sikh history from Sri Guru Nanak dev sahib and learn about Bhagti movement while having knowledge of other religions with their philosophies. It will make us better human than sticking with 1984 and starting Sikhism from there and ignoring GREAT list of Sikh martyrs. Let’s not divide Sikhism as per our own linking, so PLEASE keep Sikhism in line and read about whole history or just ignore it otherwise political propagandas come in between and it doesn’t go anywhere.

[Black Goddess]

Suman, try to think outside of your little boxes.

[Har Naal Pyar]

but the gurus were sent by god.. they were true sants. what i mean to say is that no matter how hard somebody tries they will never be in the same league. i have soooooooooo much respect 4 jarnail singh. my father stayed with him in amritsar 4 a while.

there are so many fake sants out there. they do things such as building hospitals, schools etc and attach theur names to it and are arrogant. ppl bow down to them. a true sant will never allow this. i'm not sure that i'm explaining myself properly to u all.

you r explaining yourself clearly but do you really think babas today WANT to even pretend to be equal to our Gurus- expect Aushutosh ofcourse lol

[x_suman_x]

look black goddess.

i have a lot of respect 4 u cos ur my teacher yeh, but u r da one dat needs to think outta ur box.

no offence

gur fateh!!!