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Mob ATTACK Elderly in Lemington Spa Gurudwara


Jungee
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Just been informed by a colleague of mine in the west midlands police that a group of youths attacked a group of elderly men who were in the community centre of the local Gurudwara in Lemington Spa.

Everything got caught on security Cameras and CCTV, and most of the attackers have been identified. There reason for attacking is unknown, but it has been suggested it may have had to do with the diwali celebrations that the Gurudwara was having.

Now my main concern is besides the gurudwara being desecrated, most of the elderly men who were in the 70’s and 80’s got rushed to hospital, for very serious injuries.

These attackers did wear turbans, did have beards and some also wore blue banea, they were armed and also yelling in a very hostile, and threatening manner. Many aged between 18 to 30

I cant put all details on this forum write now, but just wanted to make the cyber sikh community aware of these so called Sikhs who represent certain Sikh organisations here in the UK.( Boss, Akj, Taksaal, Nihangs), who preach one thing, but there actions portray another message.

Most of you will know who they are. Just don’t be surprised when this incident appears on the news stating ‘Fanatical/ Confused Sikhs’ ……

Please can these attackers be named and shamed.....

I'll start with a certain person called Ubi Singh from coventry, in his 40's who socialises with teenagers and creates a lot of hatred/confusion amongest them,who always incites violence, towards holy places, women children and elderly in the name of Sikhi!!!!

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I really cant see how you could be so careless to post and demand the alledged "attackers" be "named and shamed" without providing evidence.

You say "Everything got caught on security Cameras and CCTV, and most of the attackers have been identified." For this reason the naming and shaming will be done anyway will it not? And these people will be judged by the law if the scenario you described is accurate.

Also, what you have written appears to be very sensationalistic and emotive in nature. Use of "most of the elderly men who were in the 70’s and 80’s got rushed to hospital, for very serious injuries" makes it sound as though 70-80 year olds were systematically targetted and few were spared this supposed attack, as the use of the word 'most' would suggest.

Would it not be better to wait for proof before naming and shaming? Or if the stated individual and others have been identified as you suggest, perhaps it would make sense to just allow the media to name and shame them as they no doubt would. Besides, if these people are so well known as your statement "Most of you will know who they are," suggests; then why is there such urgency to "name and shame"? If that is the case, then surely naming and shaming would serve no puropse.

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I understand the sentiments running high of those who were disguisted looking at the maryada being completey torn apart. I completely share those sentiments with you.

However, attacking old men of 70-80 year old severely is totally out of order. Even though they were drinking in gurdwara premises. There are other means to solve it ie- telling them first to get out, if not forcefully pick them up and take them out and threaten them if you don't get out..will take your pictures and post them every-where.

If anyone of these old men happen to die(god forbid), it's wrong. You will bring a misery to the family members and whole generation linked with old men..old men kids, grand kids, grand grand kids will avoid sikhi like a plaque because they will think so called sikhs are fanatics, mobs, which i can understand where they coming from....!

That's my take on this .. sorry if i offend anyone.

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Please could we get to the bottom of this and assess this fully before making and brandishing anyone's name across the forum.

This "NAME AND SHAME" ideas presented by many of today's well meaning SIKHS is nothing but weakness in itself and having met a few people recently who advocate this, I am surprised that well educated and Amritdhari Youth lack common sense to understand the inherit problems that lie with this type of attitude.

The dangers of NAMING and SHAMING should be clear for all, particularly for those in the UK, recall back to when certain newspapers sought to ride the MORAL HIGH GROUND (rather like many today who are quick to stone the adulterous, yet silent if they were to be asked if they are free from err and sin) and NAMED AND SHAMED what they thought to be peodeophiles - the result, they got various names wrong, this led to not only VIOLENCE (that they themselves were responsible for orchestrating) against the guilty but also against many innocent people.

CAN WE PLEASE THINK THINK THINK CAREFULLY OVER SUCH MATTERS rather than REACTING, REACTING and REACTING.

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Please could we get to the bottom of this and assess this fully before making and brandishing anyone's name across the forum.

This "NAME AND SHAME" ideas presented by many of today's well meaning SIKHS is nothing but weakness in itself and having met a few people recently who advocate this, I am surprised that well educated and Amritdhari Youth lack common sense to understand the inherit problems that lie with this type of attitude.

The dangers of NAMING and SHAMING should be clear for all, particularly for those in the UK, recall back to when certain newspapers sought to ride the MORAL HIGH GROUND (rather like many today who are quick to stone the adulterous, yet silent if they were to be asked if they are free from err and sin) and NAMED AND SHAMED what they thought to be peodeophiles - the result, they got various names wrong, this led to not only VIOLENCE (that they themselves were responsible for orchestrating) against the guilty but also against many innocent people.

CAN WE PLEASE THINK THINK THINK CAREFULLY OVER SUCH MATTERS rather than REACTING, REACTING and REACTING.

My sentiments exactly. Does anyone know yet if this incident and the one reffered to on panthic.org are the same?

N30 Singh, where did you get your information from bhajee? Your post also suggests a serious assault. Does anyone know what exactly happened yet? Is it the same as what the panthic.org article is describing?

Regardless, I think that if this is as serious as described, action should be left to the police, and we should not resort to throwing names about over the net. Please people, think before making such errors. What if the family of the chap you mentioned were assulted as "revenge" for this because of your naming and shaming, based solely on your indication of the stated individual? Do you really think that would be constructive??

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hopefully the evidence (CCTV, injuries and eye witness accounts) will be enough for prosecutions to take place.

I hope that it does go all the way and a just punishment is given to these lunatics.

when their names and photos do come out in media, it's responsiblity of sikh groups in UK to come out and condemn such cowards attacks and reject groups or organization affilated with such attacks (if there is any).

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There is also a thread about this issue on sikhsangat website, where someone who describes themselves as an eye-witness has posted.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=15030

To all the sangat, Gurfateh,

Artmental... U was not there u dont know the full story.... I do as i was there by mistake. I am a local of the area and have on a number of occasion witnessed what the committee and the some of the sangat members do there. I personally have told them not to do such things there... but all my benties were ignored.

When i came out of the darbar sahib after methka dekh i saw round about 150-200 singh and singhia rushing towards the room WHERE SHERAB (ALCOHOL) AND MEAT WERE BEING OPENLY SERVED. These guys that i saw go in did not seem local and all seemed very mature. One of the guys that was in the room told me at the end that when we went in the so called old men said to the boys that this is there gurdwara and they can do what they want there, and No-One can stop us... As the Gursikhs were doing thier benties two three of the old men threw there glassy at them and began to manhandle them.. after that all hell broke loss as some of the young Sikhs were not able to see there fellow gursikh being beaten like animals… Some of the old men did receive cut and burses as I saw this myself.. I did not like what I saw the whole room was trashed.. but I must say these old men had is coming.. theses people eye up all the bibia that go to the gurudwara, they speak in a very ill manner about other peoples daughters and wives and then they drink alcohol with meat made in Gurdwares Patelie.. so Mr Artmental.. u tell me what else could of the Gursikhs done…. I have been told that a video about this will soon be in the net and you can all see so called committee members and so called amrithadri old member in their full glory… I would request the administrator to not allow people like Artmental to use words like idiot, towards gursikhs that are putting their livelihoods at stake to help reshape the panth. The truth will be out soon and peolpe like the above will have nothing else to say..

All the facts are on panthic weekly and the video will be out soon.. I hope your (Artmental) family members are not caught in the act…..

Gurfateh

Jagjit Singh Shera

Ps: well done Khalsa boys keep it up, the panth is with you don’t worry about the idiot like above they are all talk and no action….

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Note key words in his post, if those key words are truth then there it was probably hard to break a fight:

all the sangat, Gurfateh,

Artmental... U was not there u dont know the full story.... I do as i was there by mistake. I am a local of the area and have on a number of occasion witnessed what the committee and the some of the sangat members do there. I personally have told them not to do such things there... but all my benties were ignored.

When i came out of the darbar sahib after methka dekh i saw round about 150-200 singh and singhia rushing towards the room WHERE SHERAB (ALCOHOL) AND MEAT WERE BEING OPENLY SERVED. These guys that i saw go in did not seem local and all seemed very mature. One of the guys that was in the room told me at the end that when we went in the so called old men said to the boys that this is there gurdwara and they can do what they want there, and No-One can stop us... As the Gursikhs were doing thier benties two three of the old men threw there glassy at them and began to manhandle them.. after that all hell broke loss as some of the young Sikhs were not able to see there fellow gursikh being beaten like animals… Some of the old men did receive cut and burses as I saw this myself.. I did not like what I saw the whole room was trashed.. but I must say these old men had is coming.. theses people eye up all the bibia that go to the gurudwara, they speak in a very ill manner about other peoples daughters and wives and then they drink alcohol with meat made in Gurdwares Patelie.. so Mr Artmental.. u tell me what else could of the Gursikhs done…. I have been told that a video about this will soon be in the net and you can all see so called committee members and so called amrithadri old member in their full glory… I would request the administrator to not allow people like Artmental to use words like idiot, towards gursikhs that are putting their livelihoods at stake to help reshape the panth. The truth will be out soon and peolpe like the above will have nothing else to say..

All the facts are on panthic weekly and the video will be out soon.. I hope your (Artmental) family members are not caught in the act…..

Gurfateh

Jagjit Singh Shera

Ps: well done Khalsa boys keep it up, the panth is with you don’t worry about the idiot like above they are all talk and no action….

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http://www.panthic.org/news/124/ARTICLE/1975/2005-11-13.html

SHAME ON GURDWARA

Sunday 13th November, 2005

Fauja Singh – Panthic Weekly Staff

MP James Plaskitt (File Photo)

Leamington Spa, Warwickshire, UK (KP) - Panthic Weekly has received reports from sources yesterday that Gurdwara Sahib Leamington & Warwick Management Committee violated the sanctity and purpose of the Gurdwara Sahib by allowing a sharaab (alcohol) and meat party for 100 people or so within the Gurdwara premises.

The reports suggest that at the party, which took place inside the Gurdwara building compound, influential politicians were also present. The politicans included the Labour MP James Plaskitt for Warwick & Leamington who while enjoying the hospitality of the Gurdwara Committee (by drinking alcohol and eating meat), said, “Now, I know, which is the best room in the Gurdwara!â€

Members of the Sangat, who happened to be visiting the Gurdwara at the time, walked in--to the smell of meat being cooked. “All I could smell is alcohol and meat when I stepped into the Gurdwara†said one member of sangat.

As the sangat walked past the room to investigate the smell, they were shocked and horrified to hear the words of MP James Plaskitt. As the sangat entered the room they saw a party hall set up for an estimated 100 people. On each table the sangat found dishes of lamb meat accompanied by bottles of whiskey, Bacardi, beer, and other intoxicants.

Is the Guru’s Darbaar not the best room in the Gurdwara? Or is a room designated for socialising within the Gurdwara building the best room because they make meat (using Gurdwara utensils) and enjoy drinking barcardi, whiskey and beer?

In the room, sources describe a special bar which has been made and a large television on which people were watching football. The event was claimed to be a Diwali party, even though it went against the basic principles of the Sikh faith and celebrating a Gurpurb of Bandi Chor was reduced to alcohol and meat being served by the Gurdwara commitee president. Members of the sangat described the room as having a pub like atmosphere.

Members of the committee who where in Guru's roop (form) with dastar (turban) and beard where caught eating meat and consuming alcohol on the Gurdwara premises in that room. Meat and alcohol was made, served and consumed using utensils and cutlery from Guru Ka Langar (community kitchen).

Drinking alcohol is a gross violation of the Sikh tenets, however drinking within the Gurdwara premises is an even worse insult and desecration. Sangat members who came across this grotesque insult to the Sikh faith peacefully asked the drinking party, “Why are you drinking in the Gurdwara? This is not allowed [according to our faith]!†It was claimed that a Gurdwara Committee Member stood up to the concerned Gursikhs and said, “This is not your Gurdwara, this is OUR Gurdwara.â€

Disgusted by the response of the drunkard man who had a white flowing beard, the Gursikhs reminded the Gurdwara Committee members and the men indulging in consuming intoxicants and meat that “This is not YOUR Gurdwara, it is the GURU’s Gurdwara.†The committee members then started throwing alcohol and meat at the Sangat who where left shocked at what was happening.

Reports suggest that the drunkard men from the party felt insulted by the Gursikhs who had interrupted their drinking session and so attacked the Gursikhs. A scuffle then followed as sangat Gursikhs tried to defend themselves as committee members began to physically assault and remove dastars (turbans) of the sangat.

Members of the Sangat were even more ashamed of knowing that the General Secretary and Stage Secretary of the Gurdwara, who have white beards and who are meant to lead the Sikh community and guard the Sikh Rehat Maryada, promoting Gurmat in the Gurdwara premises, were seen drinking alcohol and enjoying the evening with the politicians, Gurdwara Committee members and other local members of Leamington Spa.

Sangat's (community) donations to the Gurdwara for its upkeep, propagating the Sikh religion and for Panthic causes were being used to entertain influential politicians and have parties which desecrated the Sikh place of worship, values and Sikh religion.

Panthic Weekly has received reports that some members of the committee are threatening to carry on with such practises, “we will be prepared next time,†is a quote Panthic Weekly has received from sources.

What next? In the eighteenth century, Massa Rangar drank alcohol, ate meat and had prostitute-dancing girls in the premises of Harmandar Sahib. Members of the Sangat will be writing to Sri Akal Takht Sahib in regards to the growing laxity of discipline and respect for Gurmat and the property of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji amongst some Gurdwaras in the UK, in particular, Leamington & Warwick Gurdwara Sahib.

Panthic Weekly will keep you updated with any news regarding this serious matter.

Fauja Singh can be reached at fauja.singh@panthic.org

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should the title of this thread not be changed to "Elderly idiots undertake acts of profanity in a Gurdwara and then provoke attacks".

If what is written is true and this drinking etc took place in the Guru Ghar building and not the tachbrook centre then these elederly people deserved their shithar. In fact if the oldies are sons of their fathers I urge them to try the same thing in Punjab and see what lovely double shithar they get.

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Got this from tapoban:

Eye-witness:

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikiFateh!

I had the misfortune to see what happened on Saturday. Nobody was knifed. Seems like peop;e want to distract attention from the real facts - bajjar curehats were being committed inside Guru ji's home!!!!!!!

Can you imagine Guru Gobind Singh ji sitting in His Darbar saying to drunks - you can have a session the room at far side of the Darbar, next My Sach Khand, as long as the entrance is from another door??????

The title of this thread will be changed to something less negative against singhs for time being who did this seva. I m convinced for now that attacks in the room were first provoked by elders throwing glassy with alchohol around in gurdwara premises unless proven otherwise by other party.

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There are more threads on the Sikh Sangat link too that suggest the first posters comments were totally biased and a grossly inaccurate interpretation of events. It's so unfortunate people feel the need to be the first to spread gossip, and in the process neglect their duty to wait for facts and evidence.

Worse still, they have the audacity to name people over the internet to further an apparent agenda of hatred, without any regard of the consequences of such an act.

Perhaps the admins should also remove the name quoted in the first post, as it seems irresponsible to leave it on the thread.

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Contrary to what is being said on the web forums.....Majority of the accounts are lies being spread by the so called 'Khalsa' of panthic weekly/ Coventry.

This incident didn’t happen in the gurudwara, but in the community centre room which has been given to the local elders to use.

The elders weren’t pissed!!!! and they never initiated the attack.

If your a Punjabi from the older generation, and you see youngsters talking to you in a hostile and rude way, your not gonna just sit quietly and not say nothing.

From what the unbiased statements that have been given to the police, have said is that small children were in the room too, plus some auntis.

( you can just imagine the terror they must have felt when they saw these cowards attack them)

From what I have been informed by the CID Branch in Warwick, 1 person has been arrested and charged, plus had his house raided where they found some illigal items ( i haven’t been told what), plus 5 are at present in custody waiting to be charged.

Now the reality is that at present the so called Khalsa youth who are being brainwashed by some thugs have attacked a group of elderly people, put several of them in hospital, including 3 in surgery for serious injuries. If any of them dies, who is to blame…

Whatever the so called peaceful protest was about, the out come has come out in a very negative way, making the youth who supposedly are religious look like a bunch of KALIBAN cowards.

All this incident has done is destroy any ekta that there was and tarnished the Sikh image more.

where did all the integrity and honour that they all keep talking about go, i thought violence was always the last resort, not the first.

And please don’t cheapen our Sikh history by comparing these bozos to the warriors of past. I am sure they wouldn’t attack a group of elders, especially as a mob!!

I hope those lambs dressed in lions clothing get there just rewards and may there family members be ashamed of there behavior.

I will do ardas that they all get punished for there crimes plus may they grow a brain as they get older or sikhi will be destroyed in a generation of two.

At present I am ashamed to consider my self a Sikh of the sangat. My Guru would never encourage this.

Everybody is complaining about the committees, but I think that the so called Sikh organisations and jatha out there are equally to blame as they too are being misled and being misinformed by hypocrites who don’t practice what they preach.

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Jungee and others

pls know facts from both sides before sayign harsh words

The sharab room was definately in the Gurdwara sahib premises next to the library and on same hallway as Sach Khand, it was never over diwalli as u say, you talk about ekta, well ebfore makign comments know the facts, and before mentioning names and jatebandis, know the facts

i repeat the sharab party was in gurdwara building and not in community hall

IT WAS NOT in the community hall.

A stance needed to be made (and only Guru Sahib and those actually there know whether the right stance was made ))

at the end of day, Seperate community halls where parties are held are bad, but as no one made a stance at the time, it's now accepted amongst the wider panjabi community.

Now sharab is gettign in to the sacred premises of dARBBAR sAHIB!!!!!!!!!!!!

and once one place does it the trend will follow

so a stance had to be taken, otherwise 20 yrs down the line who knows what we coudl see

a choice of veg/non veg langar, water or whisky to drink!!!!!!!!!!

This can not happen.

It was guru's hukam that Leamington were the 1st place for this to happen,

i repeat the sharab party was in gurdwara building and not in community hall

Gurfateh ji

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I think the only way to know who is telling the truth is from pictures, video's etc.

Jungee, gotta a question?

were you there when this happened?

I have a eye-witness who is a good freind of mine(Harpartap Singh) who was there, here is what he wrote:

>>>

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikiFateh!

I had the misfortune to see what happened on Saturday. Nobody was knifed. Seems like peop;e want to distract attention from the real facts - bajjar curehats were being committed inside Guru ji's home!!!!!!!

Can you imagine Guru Gobind Singh ji sitting in His Darbar saying to drunks - you can have a session the room at far side of the Darbar, next My Sach Khand, as long as the entrance is from another door??????

>>>

I think only way to know the truth is through pictures, videos etc. Otherwise this thread will be blaming game all the way with less facts but more tu tu mein mein and besides let not bring personal agenda into this thread but focus more on key point questions.

- When elders were drinking sharab, was Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji present there in the gurdwara or community hall ? Yes/No

- Did singhs who went inside to stop this beadhi of guru sahib tried to resolve the suitation by peace at first? Yes/No? If yes, please give details.

- When elders provoked the singhs, the amount of force involved to fight back , was it really neccessary? (This question could be tough one).

Lets focus on these questions, instead of playing usual game of tu tu mein mein.

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Another post by Harpratap Singh who was there:

VahegurujikkaKhalsa, vahegurujikiFateh!

This is what I saw with my own eyes:

FACT 1: there were crates of bacardi bottles on the floor of the room and cans of beer (I can't remeber which brand)

FACT 2: the room was next to library (my friend actually closed the door to prevent anybody else going in)

FACT 3: the Sachkhand is next to the room

FACT 4: meat has NEVER been allowed to be served in Guru ka Langar

FACT 5: the issue is not how much the men present have contributed to the finances of the Gurdwara - their other actions are unjustifiable. Guru ji would never accept such 'blood' money

FACT 6: the Panth hhas a Hukamnama of Sri Akal Takhat Sahib which says that Guru ji should not be taken to commercial establishments where alcohol and meat are present and consumed. How can anyone justify holding a party for 'Divali' with meat and alcohol in a room in a part of the Gurdwara is beyond me!

FACT 7: the men present actually said "eh sada gurdwara heh, usi jo marji kariay" (this is our GURDWARA [note they did not say community hall/social club], we can do whatever we want). So this throws a big spanner in the works of the people who are saying this wasn't the Gurdwara.

FACT 8: the Sangat who came to visit the Gurdwara was made up men, women and children, Amritdhari and non Amritdhari, Kesdhari and non Kesdhari. The one thing they had in common was that they knew that drinking allcohol and eating meat next to Guru ji's Sachkhhand is plain WRONG.

FACT 9: if the CCTV is available, please post it on the internet. The TRUTH (SACH) will always come out. We have nothing to fear.

If I have made any mistakes above, please correct me.

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Let the U.K authority do their investigation and come up with some solid facts. I think it won't bring us to any conclusion if we keep discussing it online. People have their own bias and "Mirch-Masala" is common in online chats.

Also, from Sikhawareness team I want to assure that we are simply allowing people to discuss it and have no intention to add fuel to fire. So, please do not take us as enemies/friends of any party as we will hold neutral position.

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