Baba Santa Singh 1984

[Guest Javanmard]

It's Ali but in a calligraphed form extending the 'ain into a loop.

[John]

What does Islam have to do with us, why have an Islamic icon up, Javanmard?

[Guest Javanmard]

Who is "us"? I am myself there is no "us" for me. There is no tribe or herd for me. If you want to be part of a herd then that's your problem. Herd, tribe, community...all the same to me and I am not part of that. Your opinion about my icon counts as much to me as voice of the herd: nothing!

The "us" you refer to is made of murderers of baby girls, people who consider blood and caste to be more important than faith, people who have no problem building their "temples" with harami money, people who can't even read their own scriptures, disobey them, are obsessed with identity (like most primitive tribes), can't even appreciate the sacrifices of their own Gurus and shahids. Why on earth is the beautiful name of "Sikh" applied to these people?...

There is only one "us" for me: my Beloved and I, and the flask of wine. The rest is just a lie! But when we are together there is not even "us", just the silence where our breaths and souls unite...

What do I care about the swine and their "us": Sikhs, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Hindus...they all drink the grape juice of falsehood and sing "us" "us" "us"...

What do I care about your "us" and your opinion John...

[chatanga]

yes i can see the letters a l i in it now but the calligraphy confused me.

[John]

It was a genuine question Javanmard, when I reffered to us I mean Sikhi

Thank you

[Guest Javanmard]

And who gives you the right to talk for all of Sikhi John? For you Sikhi is a community-tribe thing, for me it's my relationship with my Guru. All else is a joke. The fact that your refer to your post as a genuine question is even more worrying. As if you had the right to police me on what icons I have. Are you some kind of Panthic inquisition?

Now look carefully:

[left:8a0e1821fb]http://www.bektashi.net/sitebuilder/images/Imam_Ali-272x483.jpg[/left:8a0e1821fb]

Oh no! Yet another Islamic picture!!! Tut tut tut tut Javanmard should be excluded from "us"!

Don't worry John, I never was part of your "us"!

Ya Ali Madad!

[Dynamic_Banda]

i think we must all be aware that forums are a community based facility which have a vast range of users all stemming from different backgrounds and more importantly different experiences and understandings.

Not everyone here is an Ustad and not everyone here is just the average joe sikh who is unlearned in languages as well as being a great sikh scholar.

So maybe we should appreciate these differences instead of accusing those who may have misunderstood or not understood of being police force or close minded, after all a mind can only open through discourse not closed doors.

thats my opinion anyhow.

[Guest Javanmard]

Well I am not here because of a "community": I have been invited. If there is anything I can share then I am happy. But having people ask:

1. Why I have an "Islamic icon"

2. What that icon and Islam have to do with "us" (as if Guru Nanak going to Mekkah and reciting the adhan in Baghdad were some random acts...)

is in my eyes tribal-communitarian behaviour. If John thinks he can speak for the whole of Sikhi (whatever that means) then fine. I am just stating that I don't care that's all.

[SAadmin]

Guys, especially john if you have basic queries or comments on avtars of members just take it over the pm.

Lets stick to the topic guys.

[Dynamic_Banda]

nevermind

[Guest Javanmard]

no matter

[Dynamic_Banda]

[Freed]

On the topic of arabic calligraphy - can anyone decipher the script in this painting of Guru Nanak ?

It shows an angel showering gold on Guru Nanak - the painting was recently sold at Bonhams for over £6,500 pounds (it was in the same sale as the Duleep Singh marble bust that went for over £1,500 000)

'Guru Nanak - Deccan, circa 1840'

Many Thanks

Freed

[Mahakaal Singh!]

Such a Charhdikalaa Jathedaar a shame that hes been polluted by bazigar

[vayuputra]

John is right.

Dynamic Banda is right.

[Guest]

Sorry guys i have to spilt the topic here, i ll make a new thread under formal debate section titled - sikhism offshot of sikhism?

[Niranjana]

Just an observation: neo-Nihangs from the UK seemed to be getting very worked over Balbir "Bazighar" (funny how the caste of other leaders is omitted!) on the other thread with respect to the Jathedari of the Budha Dal, in particular that Balbir Singh had the backing of Governtal bodies...however, this was exactly the case for Singh Sahib Baba Santa Singh Maha Akali Nihang from 1984 onwards???

The "Guru ki Ladli Fauj" was visibly under the protection of the Indian Police on many public occasions as well as conducting the Kar Seva of the Akal Thakt with due support from the Governmental body (prior to the Kar Seva Babas coming and completing the destruction of heritage buildings with the due assistance of the Taksal to erect the current structure).

Funny, how such contradictory trends seem to be evidenced in just about every group out there!

[tSingh]

With all due respect, I don't think the argument was 'he's got police protection therefore he's in with the government', it was more 'he's got police protection, therefore doesn't have the backing of the dal panth like Surjit Singh'.

[Niranjana]

With equally due respect, the argument for Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh isn't so much "he had police protection therefore he's in with the government" (although if made from a Taksali/SGPC/AKJ mindset it certainly would), but rather that at the time, contrary to the popular opinion of certain groups in the UK, Baba Jee didn't have the backing of all of the Budha Dal (not only Balbir "Bazighar"'s division but others too were critical of his stance), so here again it is equally true that "he had police protection, therefore didn't have the backing of the entire dal panth (and of course the committees of the aforementioned groups!)"

[Guest Javanmard]

What I find really amazing about you people is this:

You make this huge fuss about Akali Baba Santa Singh's kar seva whilst you admire the gold covering of Harimandir Sahib which has offered by a notorious paedophile, an opium addict, an alcoholic, a man who couldn't even recite mulmantar: Maharaj Ranjit Singh. This man transformed the shrine of our Gurus into the tackiest bling bling monument of India and you admire him. Not only that. You actually go as far as writing your names on the marble of the interior of Harimandir Sahib itself: "Sardar XXXX Singh gave 5000 paise". All that inside the holiest of your shrines.

Says it all about what kind of community you are!

[shaheediyan]

Veer Javandmard Ji,

Although I wholeheartedly agree with you that "gold capping" Darbar Sahib was an ill concieved idea (how could anyone improve on the pure white lotus form of Guru Ji's sublime thought), and although I am not a fan of Ranjit Singh (M) myself (even though acknowledging he is on of the greatest military generals in recent history), could you kindly provide evidence that he was a paedophile and couldn't recite mul-mantar.

Thanks.

[Guest]

Maharaja Ranjit Singh with inspiration from baba bir singh ji naurangabad used to recite 25 japji sahib, thats what i heard.

Regardless of his addiction- opium, alchohol he was greatly respected by the panth because of his humility within guru ghar and his mahan seva.

Yes in case you are wondering sometimes Vahiguroo ji take mahan seva from drug addicts. Obviously cham dristi wale bandae like us cant get that concept.

Its not good to be cynical all the time, nit pick bad things of other jeevanis.

Other allegations like paedophile and couldnt even recite mool mantar is totally false.

[drawrof]

With Regards to Maharaja Ranjit Singh not being able to recite mool manter: one source of history says that He ran into Bhai dukh bhanjan ji on his way to seeing Baba Sahib Singh Bedi Una Sahib wallay and He was asked "do you know japji sahib?"..the answer was no. "Do you know mulmantar?" the answer was no. Then Maharaja Ranjit Singh asked if he could be taught moolmantar and he'd learn the rest later. In essence, bhai dukh bhanjan (like most saints of that time) didn't want to have much to do with maharaja ranjit singh.

As per the gold on Darbar Sahib, Javanmard, do you know why it was put on?

I am not a personal fan of the sponsor a brick at darbar sahib myself, regardless of whether it is written in gurmukhi, shahmukhi, or english. These phenomena are quite new.

As per community and culture, nearly every community in the world is running with the global market right now. Sure you have elite, sophisticated people everywhere, but they are not in the majority and generally...nor is the culture they subscribe to. Money is the benchmark, multinationals are the vazeers, and we are all slaves to it...regardless of what we'd like to think or believe.

[Guest Javanmard]

All I am saying is this: be consistent! If you're going to refuse money from an oppressor for rebuilding the Akal Takht then you might as well take the gold off the Harimandir Sahib which is money from a child abuser and drug addict.

I have been to alot of holy places in my life of all different religions. Business around pilgrimage centers is as such normal. Less normal is the fact of putting one's name on the doorstep or walls of the holiest of shrines of a religion. I have seen many ex-votos in the form of little icons in Catholic churches where the believers depict the way they were healed by the Holy Virgin or a saint but NEVER have I seen the names of these people engraved in the very walls of a church. In any case that isn't the case in Saint Peter's Church in the Vatican from what I remember.I am visiting Qom and Mashad this summer and I am curious to see if Iranians dare engrave their names (and aounts of money) 5 meters away from the graves from Sayyida Fatimah Ma'sumah (as) or Imam Reza (as).I doubt very much they do such things. If that's the case I will know that you and Hindus are the only people to do this sort of be-izzati to their sacred shrines. If not then I guess it'll just confirm that most of you have no problem with behaviour only found among Hindus.(Already confirmed by the fact that most of you would never think of marrying outside of caste, do virtually nothing about female infanticide,do parikrama the Hindu way, love vegetarianism and the cheap Shankara non-dualistic idea that you can become God in Sach Khand..).

I am saying all this because I am really fed up with people having a go at an old man such as Akali Baba Santa Singh just because he rebuilt the Akal Takht. And this very fact just disgusts me. You let this so-called Sant enter the holiest of our shrines, where him ad his disciples eat, sleep and defecate. You let him dig holes in the walls of the Akal Takht. Then you are all upset and surprised that the Indian army intervenes (as if Indira Gandhi was going to let it happen...). The army eventually damages 25 percent of the building.

What does Baba Santa Singh do? He just repaired a sacred building. Where the money came from is simple: Maharaj's golak! If you want to prevent people from donating money to Maharaj then go ahead!

Not only do you people get upset with him repairing the Akal Takht BUT you actually manage to destroy ALL of it: And whilst all this is happening you have gold covering Harimandir Sahib with that kanjar Ranjit Singh's name on it making it the tackiest bling bling sacred building in the world with the interior walls covered with the amounts of money donated by XYZ.

God knows I have problems with the state of Budha Dal and especially Budha Dal UK (army of "veterans" all aged under 30...) but one thing is sure: Akali Baba Santa Singh did nothing wrong.And in fact I have eyewitnesses who were at Akal Takht when Babaji met Vedanti and never did he apologize unlike what the press said. All tha happened is that Babaji was introduced as a "great personality of the Sikh Panth sitting on the gaddi of the army created by Guru Harigobind Sahib".

Anyone who dares slander Babaji on his repairing of the Akal Takht given all other disgusting things Neo-Sikhs do to it and to Harimandir Sahib truly deserves nothing but the following verdict: you people need to die! And if that means most people in this community then so be it!

At least have some respect for an old servant of the Panth who is living his last days!

despicable people you are, truly! Spitting on you and your stupidity is the least you deserve from me!

ps.N30 Ranjit Singh's paedophilia is confirmed by many independent accounts of European travelers and even Panjabi sources. If you have doubts I suggest you visit Dr Gurmukh Singh (best specialist of Sevapanthi and puratan literature) at Bhasha Vibhag Patiala who will be more than happy to show you the numerous sources regarding this fact. Just because you "heard" stuff from some person dressed in white doesn't make it a historical fact...

[Xylitol]

A senior police officer told a major newspaper, I think it was the Times of India, 'it's interesting that the government was making plans to attack the golden temple when the biggest complaint the government had against Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was that 'his speeches are objectionable' ' (paraphrased). 75 Sikh shrines in total were attacked by the indian government according to former Chief Minister of Punjab, AR Darshi, not just the Akal Takht.

Ranjit Singh's respect for religion is well known, but his lack of following of many important tenets of religion only seems to be known among those who educate themselves about it. Still, I've never heard of pedophelia, just drug use, the harem, the scattering of the Akalis who helped consolidate Sikh rule so they couldn't oppose him, & refusal to give power to Akal Takht. what you are saying is interesting...