Jump to content

" Akj view of Dodra Sangat"?????


jsb

Recommended Posts

Gurfateh

one could humbly say in trying to inderstand and accept the jatha concept....

sikhi is the mountain and the jathas are mountain climbers. while they're climbing members can argue amongst themselves and say: "my path up the mountainside will get me there more quicker" or "its the only way up; you lot will all fall down unless you come this way".

at the end of the day, if and when they reach the top of the mountain (SaachKhand/Vaahiguru), they will all realise that their destination was one and the view is the same and equal for all of them.

ofcourse, i must say that this doesn't mean that all Jathebandi are within the tenets of Sikhi...if someone relies upon the touchstone of Gurbani, with sincere piyar and nimarata, they will see which Jathas preach and practise a way in accordance with the Guru's teachings.

and remember, this is a subjective point...no matter how objective we try to be, we will always be subjective to some extent...its the nature of the limited mind.

now, those blessed souls who submit their all, and practise deep loving devotion...they no longer hold subjective opinions - they have become one with The Objective - Vaahiguru...they have no sense of self let alone 'opinions'.

what to even talk of the SadhSangat..better to close our eyes and meditate...for speaking doesn't always find and listening sometimes confuses...

Love is beyond knowledge...

jaapo - Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru, Vaahiguru.

"Listen to me for i speak the truth; only those who love will find their lord"

10th Nanak Sahib

Gurfateh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sat Sri Akal:

Interesting read, NaamByassi. I have gotten a chance to go to some AKJ samagams, I have heard raag-kirtan and I have had my fill of Narinder Garewal.

First, let us discuss raag kirtan. What is Raag? Raag is a musical scale system that gives kirtan a framweork to be sung. Contrary to what a lot of raagis try to tell is, it is NOT "SA RE GA MA PA DA NE SA". If anything, these raagis are also interfering with kirtan's message, and with absolute nonsense that has nothing to do with Gurbani! And contrary to popular belief, many of the kirtanias in the AKJ samagams DO kirtan in a raag structure. They just don't do the full repotoire of "SA RE etc."

As far as Waheguru Simran in kirtan, I am too uneducated in the matter to comment. But I can say that the kirtan performed by the AKJ is very uplifting and canaffect the mind quite powerfully. Raagis who sing in full raag have yet to give me the same blissful feeling. Do not take this to be my defense for the AKJ's ignoring of the Panthic Rehat. That is not minor violation and one that they will have to deal with soon.

And this Narinder Garewal...tell me, what type of Brahm Gyani steals someone's wife??? His works that say that the Panj Pyare are nothing, his proclaiming that he has been to a Khand (Paar-Brahm Khand) that even the Gurus did not "deserve" to go into (evidenced by works of one Multani on the Satnaam website itself) and many other comments have proven to me that this man has issues (many of which might be resolved tonight!). He has even claimed that he can damn people to hell with his command! I thought a Guru was to save people, not banish them! If a living Guru was always necessary, tell me how did Sant Attar Singh, a Brahm-Gyani himself, attain his status without a Living Guru?

And this business about inner rehat, which is coupled with "Sikhi is inside" statement is the biggest fraud ever! If everyone was such a Sikh inside, would it not overflow to the outside? What do you think Guru Gobind Singh meant by "Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Nyara?" What...we should have ponytails and wear Kirpan pendants???

A decision is likely to be made about this Narinder Garewal tonight. We shall see what type of Brahm Gyani he is soon enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i have a few questions about ur post:

firstly, wat is this??

Do not take this to be my defense for the AKJ's ignoring of the Panthic Rehat. That is not minor violation and one that they will have to deal with soon.

also wat is a bhram giani?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

ms514, you seem to read into something that is not there.

First with regards Raag. The style of Raag, played on string instruments, is to convey the message of Gurbani, in a manner that conveys a deeper message of Gurbani. It is Very Specific in Gurbani, to the nature and manner in which it should be done. The Keertan done on the Vaja, cannot hit the same notes and does not have the same range, as those done via stringed instruments such as the dilruba or the rabaab. The vaja itself was not even allowed into Harmandir Sahib until this century, and via the persuasion of the British. It was considered the lowest of the instruments, due to its inability to hit the ranges and create the mood required of the Raag in their original form. Other foreign stringed instruments may be able to do this, but not the vaja.

Simran itself, is not done to get a buzz. The simran style done in AKJ smaagams is just that. Saying simran fast, with a specific breathing technique that itself cuts of oxygen circulation to the brain to some degree, giving that uplifting feeling. Simran has never been done to focus on the breath, but to focus on the word. Doing simran in this manner, for some, can be distracting, an people get caught up in the feeling that lasts only temporarily, rather than focusing on Naam, which is within.

"And this business about inner rehat, which is coupled with "Sikhi is inside" statement is the biggest fraud ever!"

Have you read the message of Gurbani??? Where does God reside? If you thinking inner rehat is a fraud, what is not a fraud? Do you think that empty external rehat that lacks compassion and self discipline is? Where does your mind reside? Where do the 5 vices reside? Where does ignorance reside? Where does humility reside? If your whole focus is outside, how you going to tackle the above when they all reside within you?

The Sikh is a Sant-Sipahi, Saint-Soldier. He has both the inner rehat and the outer.

"If everyone was such a Sikh inside, would it not overflow to the outside?"

The above is what I had stated in my lasting posting if you had spent the time to reading it.

"What...we should have ponytails and wear Kirpan pendants???"

This statement, summarizes you offensive mindedness. Where in my posting did I elude to this?? Think a while, and read with an open mind, rather than running away with something that obviously is not there.

"And this Narinder Garewal...tell me, what type of Brahm Gyani steals someone's wife???"

I commented on someone's personal life, if you care to read what I had written scroll up.

"His works that say that the Panj Pyare are nothing, his proclaiming that he has been to a Khand (Paar-Brahm Khand) that even the Gurus did not "deserve" to go into (evidenced by works of one Multani on the Satnaam website itself) and many other comments have proven to me that this man has issues (many of which might be resolved tonight!). He has even claimed that he can damn people to hell with his command! I thought a Guru was to save people, not banish them!"

These are some of the views that I also do not agree with. The Hukamanama's I have taken, keep me rooted. But I do as they tell me to do, and accept what Guru Tell's me as Truth. I have been VERY EXPLICITLY told not to Slander this individual, and to continue doing that sangat. And I will according to my Guru's Instructions, but have been very stand-offish due to the above. Which ever reason Guru Has me there, or wishes me to go there, I do not know. But as a Sikh I cannot Say My Guru Is Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if I do not follow what my Guru has dictated to me. I will have no ill will towards anyone, regardless of what they say. My Guru Has no hate, so why should I? If i cannot even practise the teaching of Mool Mantar, what teachings of Sikhism can I?

"If a living Guru was always necessary, tell me how did Sant Attar Singh, a Brahm-Gyani himself, attain his status without a Living Guru?"

God Alone is the Lone Brahm-Giani. When you have that Union with the Beloved, you will See that God in All. And Sikhs have a Living Guru, Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you disbelieve in that, read more and be open minded.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

gurfateh!

mahh bad... but yeah...just in response, that is why i clearly stated that i was confused..wasn't expecting that sort of aggressive response in return, but thank you anyways..

back to the topic at hand..

naam biyaasi veerji, lemme just comment on the charity foundation issue.

At Dodra Sangat Samagams, it's kept very simple. We try not to make any announcements save for the "ji aaya nu" at the end of each session along with announcements to arrange for accommodations and who the sevadaar for that is. Occasionally, if there is a problem with parking at the community cerntre hall

(as political issues within sikhi has led to gurdwara committees thinking that dodra sangat is evil, which is also another reason why i started this thread. but yeah, lack of gurdwara support = no permission to use gurdwara for a samagam..sad isnt it.. you only find this in canada/usa...was just in india a couple months back, and there was no such problem. went to big gurdwaras and small, and when people asked where we came from, ew told them canada...asked why were in india, in general.. told them for the dodra samagam, and they were totally cool with it),

then we make the announcement for the cars which are at risk of being towed.

You are not the first person to ask to make an announcement... i'm surprised at the responses you got from the aunties... and kinda saddened, but then again, there's those "bad apples" wherever you go, true? truth is, when others have come up with similar queries, we'll ask them to set up an area either in the langar hall where it can be viewd or on the table with all of Jaswant Singh's lekhs, which, by the way, is always kept outside the langar hall and darbar halls (this was an issue brought up to me once before, that we consider his lekhs as high as Guru...not true, but they definitely are an awesome read), and a jar or pamphlets are kept there along with the lekhs for information about the charity. wow.that was one long run-on sentence, i hope that made sense :wink: :LOL:

gurfateh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

What's up JSB,

Let me answer your questions, as you are awaiting my response. Although I am not really sure what you wish me to respond to, you seemed to have explained yourself, with no further questions...

With regards to my request of being able to talk to the sangat of the Gur-Aasra-Foundation, I was allowed to do so after the ardas was done. It was said at around the same time other annoucements were made in the deewan hall.

"You are not the first person to ask to make an announcement... i'm surprised at the responses you got from the aunties... and kinda saddened, but then again, there's those "bad apples" wherever you go, true?"
-

If you are referring to your head jathedars as being bad apples, I think you should approach them, and talk to them about this, because these were the people I approached. I first approached the auntie that holds sangat at her house weekly, then was referred to another auntie that was also someone that had a say in this matter. It took time, and I found it sad that I had to be directed to so many people, when the request was simple and a yes or no would have sufficed.

"truth is, when others have come up with similar queries, we'll ask them to set up an area either in the langar hall where it can be viewd or on the table with all of Jaswant Singh's lekhs, which, by the way, is always kept outside the langar hall and darbar halls (this was an issue brought up to me once before, that we consider his lekhs as high as Guru...not true, but they definitely are an awesome read), "

-These lekhs are also read in the deewan hall to the sangat, for about 1/2 an hour. And one time I went to the Toronto Smaagam, there was no lekh being read at all, but a video being shown, from the front of the hall in an area near Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, where all you saw was the camera firmly fixed on "mata ji," who was not even saying anything for 30 minutes. All that was on the video was the camera fixed on her, and keertan being sung in the background. These are some of the observances I have made. But I agree, the Lekhs are well-written, and are a good read. The writings of Osho, I find also a Great Read.

"as political issues within sikhi has led to gurdwara committees thinking that dodra sangat is evil, which is also another reason why i started this thread. but yeah, lack of gurdwara support = no permission to use gurdwara for a samagam..sad isnt it.. you only find this in canada/usa..."

- I won't comment too much on the above, as I have heard a very different story as to why Dodra Sangat is not allowed in the Gurdwara. The incident occured a while back, where a number of girls from the sangat came forward, after being molested by one of the more senior and authoratative individuals in the Dodra Sangat. This individual was charged and spent a number of years in jail. I have actually spoken with the daughter of the man that served molestation charges, and she does not waver from his innocence. However, similiar incidences were echoed in Winnipeg, by other female members of the sangat, although I do not know what became of them. I think this is the BIG reason why Dodra Sangat was not allowed in the Gurdwara, in the US and Canada, because those incidences took place here. Because of the Black mark it would leave on the Sikh community at large. In Dodra Sangat in India, during smaagams, men and women are not even allowed to sit next to each other, or even have langar in the same halls, because of this. The male and female interaction is very limitted. It is sad, when the acts of a few individuals, taint things that are there to promote something positive. :?

Hope this response was good enough for you JSB. I am stating what I know, and what I have observed first hand.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 11 months later...

From the book "Divine Mystic Reflections on Gurmat" by Sant Naranjan Singh Ji:

Q: Please say something about Raag Mala's place in Gurbani.

A: Sant Ji: Raag Mala is part of Gurbani. the original Kartarpur beed or Granth written by Guru Arjan Dev Ji and the other at the Dam Dama Sahib written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji both have Raag Mala in them. I have seen both volumes. The ink used and the writing of Raag Malaand the rest of the Gurbani is the same. My faith is that Raag Mala is authentic Bani and should be honored and given due respect as Bani.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

dhan guru nanak ji

i love to be in both the jathas actually because wen i attend the either of the samagams i just love the baani spoken and thats it i know there are some restrictions in akj and i know that there's no restrictions in dodra sahib its all duniyavi matters if u have a true intention to meet ur lord u should'nt be in these arguments and be nirlep as discussing anything which is against somebody's thoughts is something like "nindya" so i prefer to shut my mouth and follow dodra sahib as i also have some evidence regarding akj happenend with myself but u know one thing i learned that "NO COMMENTS" as

"GHAT GHAT MEIN HARJOO BASE" so

if u can't see god everywhere, u can't see god anywhere

sorry but i stated what i meant and what giyan i had from my dear saints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

who is mata ji?

sorry guv, no one answered your question

Two mahapurkhs have been blessed upon "dodra" sangat... again, i put it in quotes, cuz it is not a name that is propogated by the sangat.. it's just the name of the village in which the sangat really got started with a global influence.

The first was Bhai Jaswant Singh Ji... his short name was Bauji as that was what he was called in the army, during his stay in Burma...

point being, he has written a TON of literature... he would repeat to sangat that he was nothing and Guru Nanak was the shizznazzle, (thought i'd incorporate some western slang for all the 13 year old ebonified readers), and this was best exemplified when he stopped coming to samagams in Dodra.

this may not sound very "santly", but the reason was that people stopped believing him, that he was nothing.. and when he would come in to matha tekh, some people felt that he was IT, and they used to grab his feet while he was on the "runway", or they used to stand up when he entered the hall.. he hated that.. like, he HATED it.. and he stopped coming and wouldn't give his talks at samagams anymore...

i have all his talks on my computer, if anyone is interested.. they can pm me..

mataji started doing seva for bauji roughly 30 years ago. she stayed in the same house, and used to do things like make his bed, serve him langar, accompany him on his walks, do paath with him, get him clothes if he needed any.... well.. when Bauji passed away, he told the sangat that even though he is gone, sadngat must continue, and that Mataji is, without a doubt, a mahapurkh who's teachings can be followed if you so desire.

Mataji was MADDD love man... i dunno how to put it... i met bauji when i was three years old, so i truthfully do not remember much about him.. but mataji, i met in december of 2002, when i went to india.. i met her twice, once at her kothi in ludhiana, and once at the samgam when she came to have darshan of the sangat (which is what she always used to say. thank you for coming from nations and nations abroad, i love having your darshan). She was basically a big ball of love.. she loved those who did alotta seva.. loved those who did keertan.. loved those who loved her, and loved those who hated her. loved those who had sangat in their minds, be it as a forefront or at the back of their minds. to her.. as long as you had sangat (not any particular sangat, let me clarify... she just meant the "institution" of sangat) in your heart and mind, you were basically set.

Dodra Sangat was given a saropa in the previous years from Shri Akal Takht SAhib... why? well... it just so happens, that 40 years ago... the pind of Dodra was a pind of crime... alotta crime, hate, rape, you name it it happened.. over the 40 years, amrit sanchaars have been held every single samagam.. 3 times per year, as many as three times per samagam, because the influence of sangat made so many people want to take amrit.. "Dodra" Sangat was given a saropa for the CONTRIBUTION that we had given to the PANTH! according to "Statistics", i guess we could call it, BRahm Bunga Sahib in Dodra had given birth to more amritdharis than any other gurdwara/jatha/sampardya in the world.

I do sangat with these people every day... i don't mean for this to be slander, so if it does come across as that, iplease accept my apologies.

AKJ states on their website that they are nothing but a group of gursikhs who just do keertan...

in comparison, i would like to say that i do sangat with a whole variety of people.. some are pro raag mala, some are anti... some are keski wearing, some are not.. some are pro-khalistan, some are indifferent, some are anti-khalistan.. there's no adopted policy for the people who do sangat.. you dont' need to have certain views in order to be accepted. i truly believe that the people i do sangat with, literally come to sangat for the keertan. it really is a bunch of sikhs who just want to do keertan and get on the path of Sikhi with no strings attached.

so guv, i hope i answered your question hahaha

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...

WAHA GURU JI KA KHALSA

WAHA GURU JI KI FATEH,

I WOULD LIKE TO REPLY TO "AKJ NOT READING RAAGMALA"

RAAGMALA IS NOT GURUBANI! IT DOESN'T HAVE THE STAMP OF ANY

GURU JI. ANYTHING THAT GURU UTTERED, IT HAD THEIR STAMP,

FROM MAHALLA 1 TO 10. IF THIS RAAGMALA IS A GUIDE FOR THE

RAAGS IN SAHIB GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI. THAT SUGGESTION IS BULL

CRAP, MOST OF THE RAAGS IN IT ARE NOT IN GURU SAHIB. NEITHER IS

THERE ANY RAGNI OF RAGMALA, MENTIONED IN GURU SAHIB. WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BIGGEST RAAG IN GURU SAHIB "SIRI RAAG" IT IS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN RAAGMALA.

2) RAAG MALA COMES AFTER MUDAVANI. READERS SHOULD LEARN THE

MEANING OF MUDAVANI. IN ANY BOOK, WRITING OR ARTICLE NOTHING

FOLLOWS "THE END". IF YOU UNDERSTOOD THE MEANING OF THE SHABAD, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT THE THAAL IS COMPLETE. NOTHING

IS LACKING.

3)ABOUT AKJ NOT READING RAAGMALA, NOT FOLLOWING RAHIT MARYADA, THERE WAS A HUKAMNAMA FROM SIRI AKAL TAKHAT SAHIB,

THAT STATES THAT RAAGMALA IS NOT GURUBANI. IT BELONGS TO A

KOTHAEWALI FROM LAHORE, IT COULD NOT BE DETERMINED WHEN AND BY WHOM IT WAS ADD THEREFORE THEY COULD NOT REMOVE IT.

THEY DECIDED THAT, WHENEVER SARBAT KHALSA WILL BE CALLED IT

WILL BE DECIDED THEN. IN THE MEAN TIME THEY GAVE THE CHOICE TO

KHALSA AS TO READ RAAGMALA OR NOT. ALSO ALL OF GURBANI, FROM

GURU NANAK DEV JI TO GURU GOBIND SINGH JI USES THE SAME NUMBERING SCHEME BUT IN RAAGMALA IT IS DIFFERENT.

4) KESHKI AS KAKKAR, UPTILL THE TIME OF SIRI SINGH SAHIB MUSSAFAR SINGH, IT WAS A REQUIREMENT FOR AMRIT, IT WAS SIRI

SINGH SAHIBS WIFE THAT LIKED TO DO MAKEUP SHE WAS THE FIRST ONE TO REMOVE HER KESHKI. TO COVER THEIR SHAME, THIS KURRAT

WAS INCORPORATED INTO OUR RELIGION. FROM THEN ON IT WAS NOT

A REQUIREMENT FOR AMRIT.

5)AKJ HAS A TRACK RECORD OF PRODUCING "GURU SIKHS" WHO LAID THEIR LIVES FOR GURU GRANTH AND GURU PANTH. CAN THE DODRA OR NIHANGS MAKE THAT CLAIM. I WILL NOT DIGNIFY MENTIONING THE S.O.B. GREWAL IN THE SAME BREATH, HE CLAIMED TO BE ABOVE GURU

NANAK DEV JI. BHAI SAHIB RANDHIR SINGH JI CANNOT BE EQUATED WITH THE ORIGINATOR OF DODRA. JUST READ OF THE ACCOMPLISH OF

BHAI SAHIB(TITLE GRANTED BY SIRI AKAL TAKHAT SAHIB)BHAI RANDHIR

SINGH JI. HE REVIVED NOT STARTED, THE TRADITION OF "AKHAND"

KIRTAN. HE WAS A SANT & SOLDIER. ABOVE ALL HE DIDN'T START AN

ORGANIZATION OR NAME A SUCESSOR.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

three cheers for the Randhiria Da Jatha... Hip Hip Hurray .....#3

we dont believe in sants but bhai randhir singh was a maha sant.

we dont believe in jathas, but our cult is the best.

we follow the ancient maryada of the gurus, even though we follow 20th Centurty thinkers, we know more about sikhi than all the organisation which are hundreds of years old.

We preach to other about Guru Granth Sahib, but dont like some of it so we disgard it, no big deal. Even though we say the Guru is our saviour we also like to slander out Guru.

Even though AKJ is a late 20th Century Cult, all shaheds and bhagat from the Gurus times were all gupt AKJ (which is what seems to be implied by comment 5).

Bhai Randhir Singhs view are much more holy that written evidence of Bhai Mani Singh and Baba Deep Singh as bhai randhir Singh, he must have known better than them, even though they were students of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

In short we are the best... Hip Hip Hurray .....#3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you know what surprises me the most is his comment that the akj have a track record of providing Gursikhs who lay down their lives. If you mean Gursikhs who caim to be in baba deep singh jis army then gwaan! And the most hilarious thing i found about this guy is his comment that Nihungs cannot take that claim. You deluded peice of soiled kachera what was budhadal created for. These AKJ's think of themselves as mahasants but in fact they brahmins that they slander they dont realise that in fact its unbelievable how close to their way of thought the akjs truly is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Daas ,

if you believe that what you have typed are convincing or reasonable arguments for doubting raagmala as gurbani, then you need to do more research. I read about the Raagmala from www.akj.org and it created doubts in my mind. then i read " gurmat parkaah " by Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale and listened to katha of raagmala, and the reasoning used negates the anti-raagmala viewpoint.

Now you can visit www.raagmalagurbanihai.com and see the most puratan birs of Guru Ji written in different places all from the same source which have raagmala.

So please, a benti at your charan please at least look into this. However if you still dont beleive its up to you, at least you looked at both sides.

no-one putting a neja to your head.

chatanga

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...