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Illusion or Real


Rajs

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Dear All,

I have great news that can set you on a path to know what truth is. Our very existence, our feelings, our desires, our emotions are as real, as God is real. They are not “maya†or illusion. We are not in some transitional abyss or living in figment of our imagination. We are real and living in a real world. God created us for a reason, and with feelings, desires, and emotions. We did not develop these sentiments through some cosmic mishap or grew them out of our own intelligence. We are not descendants of apes, not a freak accident of nature, and we are definitely not in a web of birth-death-rebirth cycle.

According to the Bible, God created man, from the dust of the ground, to rule over the earth, i.e., rest of the creation – birds, plants, animals, etc. We are human because God made us so and not due to good or bad karma. The very breath of life that we breathe is not an illusion, but God given breath. The people around you – your parents, brothers, sisters, the trees, the sky, the ocean, the birds and the animals are real, really! Our feelings of love, hate, anger, joy, etc. do have their place in life, God created us with these varying sentiments - they are not an illusion!

Our sins are not an illusion either but, transgression against God, who is Holy and without sin. For e.g., when we steal from someone, we sin, it is not an illusion. God’s grace can forgive our sins but cannot justify our sins. This is where Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, for the sins of the world, redeems us and puts us under God’s divine grace. God’s holy justice requires that sin must be dealt with, and for that purpose, Jesus accepted punishment on our behalf because he alone is without sin. A debtor, without any money, needs someone to pay his debts when due, in the like manner, our morality i.e., “good works,†account is bankrupt before Almighty God. We can never stand before God with a “righteous Me†attitude and expect God to embrace us for the “good†life we have lived. Reading or reciting “Baniâ€, “Kirtanâ€, etc. can never compensate for our sinful nature. We may as well take a dip in the Ganges, visit Mecca and stone the pillars representing devil; but remain sinful as ever.

The love of God, expressed through Jesus Christ, is the ultimate gift of eternal life. Gurus died and their bodies returned to dust just the like the rest of mankind. Jesus is the only resurrected one, who did rise from dead and his body did not see decay. Therefore, Jesus alone can unite us to God the Father because he came from God the Father and returned to Him to prepare a place for us, so that we can be where He is today – the King of kings, and the Lord of lords.

Rest assured, the world as we know it is on a downward spiral with clock ticking towards its nadir. God, in His unsurpassed wisdom and might, predicted this a long time ago and instigated a plan for the mankind – return of Jesus Christ – to claim back rightfully what is His, the children of God, redeemed by the blood of Christ.

Regards

Rajs

Mod Note: By all means share your views on this Religion and personally I welcome them, but if you care so much about your task here then respond to the replies posted by the users. Do not spam this board, if you are here to 'discuss' 'propogate' your message, then do so replying to the queries and replies posted by other users, or else what you are doing is trolling/spamming. This isn't a warning, just a suggestion....for now. :)

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Reading or reciting “Baniâ€, “Kirtanâ€, etc. can never compensate for our sinful nature

"Suniai Dukh Paap ka Naas"

Gurbani is the image of the Guru, by reading and following Bani it is possible to merge with God while still in human form.

"Jin sevia jin sevia mera Har ji, tin Har Har roop samasi"

Sit and wait for armageddon, the true Gursikhs will all be in Sachkhand by then

This Shabad is by Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 34

bahu su(n)nee sheea raafazee mazehab man bhaanae||

mulehidh hoe munaakaa sabh bharam bhulaanae||

eesaaee moosaaeeaaa(n) houmai hairaanae||

hoe fira(n)gee aramanee roomee garabaanae||

kaalee pos kala(n)dharaa(n) dharavaes dhugaanae||

gur sikh rom n pujanee gur hatt vikaanae ||aa||

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Could Rajs answer some questions to satisfy my curiosity.

Why does your God allow good(sinless) people to suffer in this world?

Who created God?

What was there before God?

Why do you assume, the myth of Jesus being resurrected, of having happened in actuality?

(Joseph Campbell has written about the ressurected God/son of, Motif being repeated in numerous babylonian myths, and also mithraic tradition, all pre-christ.)

Who decides what is a sin. There are numerous acts which may be considered sinful by some and pious by others it depends on the subject. Your god is another subject who decides right and wrong from his subjective viewpoint. This in my view is an extremely limited view of divinity.

I find you use the word sin a lot but never really describe the meaning of the word from your view. Also what is the aim of your religious life is it Heaven. Please tell me what there will be in heaven, what is your conception of the afterlife. (reminds me of something Bart Simpson said "wouldn't a person eventually get used to the seering heat in hell, like a hot tub", the point being if someone is repeatedly exposed to sensory bliss or torture it eventually becomes the norm for him/her, and stops being bliss, because sensory bliss can only be experienced against sensory pain - duality. Sikhism view is that pure bliss lies beyond sensory pleasure non-dual)

(Sikhs do not believe the world is an illusion, but a contracted form of reality. We are not advait vedantins, or samkhyans. The world is real, but their are higher forms of reality. )

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Dear Mekhane,

1. There is nothing wrong with suffering, Jesus, the only person without sin, also suffered. "Those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (The Bible)

2. God is the Creator - "Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made." (The Bible)

3. God is Eternal - there is no such time as "before" God.

4. What is true does not need to be assumed. There is more proof available that Jesus did rise from dead than there is that Guru Nanak spent three days submerged in a river or Baba Deep Singh carried on the battle with his head in his left-hand!

5. If you find Joseph Cambell a great authority on religious matters than please have him verify the Sikh religion; it's theology, history, and events.

6. Sansa ihu sansaar hei sitiya raind vihard (Guru Amar Das)

Sahssa ihu sansaar hei mar jammai aiah jaiah (Guru Nanak)

Regards

Rajs

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Sikhism is the only religion in which the founders did not claim themselves to be God, did not tell its followers to mindlessly go out and convert people, did not calim followers of other religions as heathen or infidel.

All respect to Jesus, but he forgot God on the cross.

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked for a head, 5 people came up, but Peter couldnt even stand up for Jesus when the Jews summonsed him.

You claim you dont believe in karma but you rattle on about sins. As a Christian do you not believe you reap what you sow.

Nobody claimed sins are an illusion - "Karmi aapo aapni ke neyrai ke door."

Gurus died and their bodies returned to dust just the like the rest of mankind

really? Is that why Baba Nand Singh Ji and 3 other premi got Guru Nanak Dev Jis pargat darshan?

Somewhere you gave a quote about a someone seeing a white throne and the books were opened and all the people were being judged by the accounts in these books.

What makes you think that this is Jesus. Thats the court of DharamRai.

If you find Joseph Cambell a great authority on religious matters than please have him verify the Sikh religion;

again, no offence. But the Bible was written hundreds of years after Jesus. How can you believe it to be the pure message he preached. How come it subjugates women.

once again read the shabad i posted before

bahu su(n)nee sheea raafazee mazehab man bhaanae||

mulehidh hoe munaakaa sabh bharam bhulaanae||

eesaaee moosaaeeaaa(n) houmai hairaanae||

hoe fira(n)gee aramanee roomee garabaanae||

kaalee pos kala(n)dharaa(n) dharavaes dhugaanae||

gur sikh rom n pujanee gur hatt vikaanae ||aa||

link for Gurmukhi - http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=6421

What did you come here for - did you expect to come across a bunch of people blindly following some path only to read your opinion and be suddenly converted? Anyone like that wasn't a Sikh in the first place.

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Dude, you have been posting your bs on both this forum as well as Sikhsangat, and you never have a proper answer, rather you always tend to change the topic whenever you are trapped and try to take your debate to some next track (really bad debating technique). Unless and until you have some proper background knowledge about Sikhism, its hopeless to debate with you.

We are not descendants of apes
Who cares whose descendants we are? We need to live our lives the best way we can, end of story!

we are definitely not in a web of birth-death-rebirth cycle.
Too bad even science has proven that reincarnation does exist.

Reading or reciting “Baniâ€, “Kirtanâ€, etc. can never compensate for our sinful nature.
Your ignorance about Sikhism is made clear day by day. What do you think you know about Gurbani?

Gurus died and their bodies returned to dust just the like the rest of mankind.
Your problem is that you consider our Guru to be a mortal body. Sorry dude, Guru is jyot, divine light which never dies. Jesus isn't here today, but our Guru is. Our Guru is the true King and True Guru because our Guru is above death, and only the Truth is above death.

Jesus is the only resurrected one, who did rise from dead and his body did not see decay.
Guru Gobind Singh Jee beheaded the panj pyaare and brought them back to life. So by that logic our first panj pyaare were at par with Jesus.

Therefore, Jesus alone can unite us to God the Father because he came from God the Father and returned to Him to prepare a place for us, so that we can be where He is today – the King of kings, and the Lord of lords.
Akaal Purkh Himself instructed Guru Gobind Singh Jee to come to this earth and preach the true religion to the world.

God, in His unsurpassed wisdom and might, predicted this a long time ago and instigated a plan for the mankind – return of Jesus Christ – to claim back rightfully what is His, the children of God, redeemed by the blood of Christ.
And Guru Gobind Singh Jee said, not too long ago - RAJ KAREGA KHALSA!

Dude, tell me something...I mean seriously! Are you one of those ex-Sikh Punjabis who converted to Christianity after being paid a huge sum of money? And now are they gonna pay you another huge sum for as many Sikhs that you convert to Christianity? Do they cover your insurance, university fees (if you are a student), other expenses as well?

Surely there MUST be something in Sikhi that makes you feel so insecure that you just have to make attempts to find some possible fault in order to satisfy your ego. If you are such a die-hard Christian, fine! good for you! be the best Christian there is. Why do you bother people who are happy and committed to their faith? What you don't realize is that you are selling your religion, thereby degrading it yourself. So now think again which religion you are trying to put down - Sikhism? (which I presume was your religion initially but you became a sell out), or Christianity (the one you are selling like a commodity)?

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Gurfateh

Jattan Vichin Jatt suneeda Jatt suneeda Nijjar

Loki tallde Chiri Batere Nijjer Talada Titter

Jesu nu rab mann lau

Nahi ant Painge Chhitar :LOL:

Baba Ji das is learning Punjabi to underastand Bhag Singh ji Ambalas wrong interpetation of Mitar Piyare Nu Sabad so just tried to write some thing for you.

Das wants to know that did not it happened that Jesus wanted that cup of wine(marterdom) to be removed from him.Then via Angel God gave him reassuance.

so who is Big.The God veryly.

you say all is real.

then why all is amde and why all is destroyed.

all apperance is not eternal but decayable.

Change and Decay is what All i say.One thou who chagest not abide with me.

Did not child Jesus changed a body of youth.did not Ghost was given out.Real thing does not change.

Revelations at end of Bible say.

I am the one who was,who is who is to come.The Omega(Start only one) and Alpha(end only one).

Judge not or you will be judge.

no one can say true till in holy ghost(Brayh Gyan).

Baba Ji why not sing Glory of Lord God for few days and attain the baptism of Holy Ghost and then let us talk.

Anyway if you are not in reading(UK) and in India das will like to meet you and take you to Some Nirmala monestory.

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Thank you Rajs for your reply to my questions. Dialogue between people of different faiths can be helpful to both sides, even though I disagree with some of your views, discussing your religious concepts helps me understand my own.

Please let us respect Rajs beliefs, even though we may not agree with them. Do not let this discussion degenerate into my religion is better or truer than yours, lets keep it on an intellectual level.

We cannot expect Rajs to have a in depth knowledge of Sikhism, and we as sikhs do not know everything about Christianity. Obviously if you believe wholeheartdly in Christianity than this will conflict with what we believe as Sikhs.

Let us engage Rajs on a level where both sides can discuss productively.

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Dear Rajs

Sikhs believe that God created the world and he himself entered his own creation. Divinity is immanent and also transcendent.

Your conception of divinity is transcendent, in that the universe/world is seperate from him and was created by him. Or through him.

This transcendent divinity is distinctly seperate from humanity, (A)why did your god choose to create Human Beings. (B)what is your Gods purpose of being, you said he was eternal what did he do on his own before he created humans. © Did your God create the dinosaurs as well because according to the Bible they never existed because history began with Adam & Eve

Regarding your comment about Jospeh Campbell, he cannot verify the theology or history of Sikhism, because 1. we don not have a theology we have sikhi sidhant 2. he has not studied Sikhism or wrote anything on Sikhism and now he is dead 3. Jospeh Campbell is not an anterjammi who knows everything, i only mentioned him because he has wrote about Christianity.

Jospeh Campbell wrote abot Christianity, having read his books I can give a general idea of what he proposes:

Christianity has taken the Bible to be actual history when modern science contradicts the historical accuracy of the Bible (see point on dinosaurs) Also the motif of the ressurected god-man is prevelant in sumerian and babylonian mytholgy (e.g. Mithra). This mythology was dominant in the near east, where Judaism emerged. Now, even as sikhism has adopted Indian mythology, Judaism adopted babylonian mythology.

The problem came about after Jesus had been mythologised as the ressurected God man, when it was put into writing, and then assumed to be actual history. The difference between Judaeo-Christian and Indian ways of looking at texts is that indians do not apply the test of historicity to prove that a text is true. the question of truth does not occur. It is a text, it represents a relationship between the reader and the read, not some historic event, even if it describes such an event. You are reading it here and now so all that matters is what you read now in temporality, whether the event happened or not does not effect the words in the text.

How do you account for the historical account given in the bible with scientific evidence about the big bang, dinosaurs etc.

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Dear Mekhane,

First of all, the Bible is a spiritual book representing God’s relationship with his creation, specifically mankind. It is not a thesis on dinosaurs or a chronological history of human race. It tells us about the saviour, Jesus Christ, God in incognito (if you will), how He came to redeem us from the sinful nature and reconcile us back to God, God who is Holy and without sin.

Whatever little the Bible tells us about the creation and the world in general, is immensely more than what Guru Granth has to offer in this matter. Your view that “The difference between Judaeo-Christian and Indian ways of looking at texts is that indians do not apply the test of historicity to prove that a text is true. the question of truth does not occur.†is indeed regrettable. To begin with, you cannot speak on behalf of “all†the Indians. Additionally, if the question of truth does not apply to text in historical sense then, Sir, I'm afraid you are reading fiction.

Kind regards

Rajs

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Gurfateh

Dear Baba Ji,

If you have not read Dasham Granth and all of Guru Granth Sahib Ji then it is your fault.(As you talk of history of creation)SeeVachitar Natak at least.

Even Genesis in Holy Bible has more to do with scince then history.It is more in mystic form.

Well see the Sabad Below

Gurfateh

Das got it and it is as follows.

Star from Ang 838 and to the next ang 839 and 840

iblwvlu mhlw 1 iQqI Gru 10 jiq (838-18)

bilaaval mehlaa 1 thitee ghar 10 jat

Bilaaval, First Mehl, T'hitee The Lunar Days, Tenth House, To The Drum-Beat Jat:

<> siqgur pRswid (838-18)

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

eykm eykMkwru inrwlw ] (838-19, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aykam aykankaar niraalaa.

The First Day: The One Universal Creator is unique,

Amru AjonI jwiq n jwlw ] (838-19, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

amar ajonee jaat na jaalaa.

immortal, unborn, beyond social class or involvement.

Agm Agocru rUpu n ryiKAw ] (838-19, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

agam agochar roop na raykh-i-aa.

He is inaccessible and unfathomable, with no form or feature.

Kojq Kojq Git Git dyiKAw ] (838-19, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

khojat khojat ghat ghat daykhi-aa.

Searching, searching, I have seen Him in each and every heart.

jo dyiK idKwvY iqs kau bil jweI ] (839-1, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jo daykh dikhaavai tis ka-o bal jaa-ee.

I am a sacrifice to one who sees, and inspires others to see Him.

gur prswid prm pdu pweI ]1] (839-1, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

gur parsaad param pad paa-ee. ||1||

By Guru's Grace, I have obtained the supreme status. ||1||

ikAw jpu jwpau ibnu jgdIsY ] (839-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ki-aa jap jaapa-o bin jagdeesai.

Whose Name should I chant, and meditate on, except the Lord of the Universe?

gur kY sbid mhlu Gru dIsY ]1] rhwau ] (839-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

gur kai sabad mahal ghar deesai. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Mansion of the Lord's Presence is revealed within the home of one's own heart. ||1||Pause||

dUjY Bwie lgy pCuqwxy ] (839-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

doojai bhaa-ay lagay pachhutaanay.

The Second Day: Those who are in love with another, come to regret and repent.

jm dir bwDy Awvx jwxy ] (839-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jam dar baaDhay aavan jaanay.

The are tied up at Death's door, and continue coming and going.

ikAw lY Awvih ikAw ly jwih ] (839-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ki-aa lai aavahi ki-aa lay jaahi.

What have they brought, and what will they take with them when they go?

isir jmkwlu is cotw Kwih ] (839-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sir jamkaal se chotaa khaahi.

The Messenger of Death looms over their heads, and they endure his beating.

ibnu gur sbd n CUtis koie ] (839-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

bin gur sabad na chhootas ko-ay.

Without the Word of the Guru's Shabad, no one finds release.

pwKMif kIn@Y mukiq n hoie ]2] (839-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

pakhand keenHai mukat na ho-ay. ||2||

Practicing hypocrisy, no one finds liberation. ||2||

Awpy scu kIAw kr joiV ] (839-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aapay sach kee-aa kar jorh.

The True Lord Himself created the universe, joining the elements together.

AMfj PoiV joiV ivCoiV ] (839-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

andaj forh jorh vichhorh.

Breaking the cosmic egg, He united, and separated.

Driq Akwsu kIey bYsx kau Qwau ] (839-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

Dharat akaas kee-ay baisan ka-o thaa-o.

He made the earth and the sky into places to live.

rwiq idnµqu kIey Bau Bwau ] (839-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

raat dinant kee-ay bha-o bhaa-o.

He created day and night, fear and love.

ijin kIey kir vyKxhwrw ] (839-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jin kee-ay kar vaykhanhaaraa.

The One who created the Creation, also watches over it.

Avru n dUjw isrjxhwrw ]3] (839-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

avar na doojaa sirjanhaaraa. ||3||

There is no other Creator Lord. ||3||

iqRqIAw bRhmw ibsnu mhysw ] (839-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

taritee-aa barahmaa bisan mahaysaa.

The Third Day: He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva,

dyvI dyv aupwey vysw ] (839-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

dayvee dayv upaa-ay vaysaa.

the gods, goddesses and various manifestations.

joqI jwqI gxq n AwvY ] (839-7, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jotee jaatee ganat na aavai.

The lights and forms cannot be counted.

ijin swjI so kImiq pwvY ] (839-7, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jin saajee so keemat paavai.

The One who fashioned them, knows their value.

kImiq pwie rihAw BrpUir ] (839-7, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

keemat paa-ay rahi-aa bharpoor.

He evaluates them, and totally pervades them.

iksu nyVY iksu AwKw dUir ]4] (839-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

kis nayrhai kis aakhaa door. ||4||

Who is close, and who is far away? ||4||

cauiQ aupwey cwry bydw ] (839-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

cha-uth upaa-ay chaaray baydaa.

The Fourth Day: He created the four Vedas,

KwxI cwry bwxI Bydw ] (839-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

khaanee chaaray banee bhaydaa.

the four sources of creation, and distinct forms of speech.

Ast dsw Ktu qIin aupwey ] (839-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

asat dasaa khat teen upaa-ay.

He created the eighteen Puraanas, the six Shaastras and the three qualities.

so bUJY ijsu Awip buJwey ] (839-9, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

so boojhai jis aap bujhaa-ay.

He alone understands, whom the Lord causes to understand.

qIin smwvY cauQY vwsw ] (839-9, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

teen samaavai cha-uthai vaasaa.

One who overcomes the three qualities, dwells in the fourth state.

pRxviq nwnk hm qw ky dwsw ]5] (839-9, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

paranvat naanak ham taa kay daasaa. ||5||

Prays Nanak, I am his slave. ||5||

pMcmI pMc BUq byqwlw ] (839-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

panchmee panch bhoot baytaalaa.

The Fifth Day: The five elements are demons.

Awip Agocru purKu inrwlw ] (839-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aap agochar purakh niraalaa.

The Lord Himself is unfathomable and detached.

ieik BRim BUKy moh ipAwsy ] (839-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ik bharam bhookhay moh pi-aasay.

Some are gripped by doubt, hunger, emotional attachment and desire.

ieik rsu cwiK sbid iqRpqwsy ] (839-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ik ras chaakh sabad tariptaasay.

Some taste the sublime essence of the Shabad, and are satisfied.

ieik rMig rwqy ieik mir DUir ] (839-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ik rang raatay ik mar Dhoor.

Some are imbued with the Lord's Love, while some die, and are reduced to dust.

ieik dir Gir swcY dyiK hdUir ]6] (839-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ik dar ghar saachai daykh hadoor. ||6||

Some attain the Court and the Mansion of the True Lord, and behold Him, ever-present. ||6||

JUTy kau nwhI piq nwau ] (839-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jhoothay ka-o naahee pat naa-o.

The false one has no honor or fame;

kbhu n sUcw kwlw kwau ] (839-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

kabahu na soochaa kaalaa kaa-o.

like the black crow, he never becomes pure.

ipMjir pMKI bMiDAw koie ] (839-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

pinjar pankhee banDhi-aa ko-ay.

He is like the bird, imprisoned in a cage;

CyrIN BrmY mukiq n hoie ] (839-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

chhayreeN bharmai mukat na ho-ay.

he paces back and forth behind the bars, but he is not released.

qau CUtY jw Ksmu Cfwey ] (839-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ta-o chhootai jaa khasam chhadaa-ay.

He alone is emancipated, whom the Lord and Master emancipates.

gurmiq myly Bgiq idRVwey ]7] (839-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

gurmat maylay bhagat drirh-aa-ay. ||7||

He follows the Guru's Teachings, and enshrines devotional worship. ||7||

KstI Ktu drsn pRB swjy ] (839-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

khastee khat darsan parabh saajay.

The Sixth Day: God organized the six systems of Yoga.

Anhd sbdu inrwlw vwjy ] (839-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

anhad sabad niraalaa vaajay.

The unstruck sound current of the Shabad vibrates of itself.

jy pRB BwvY qw mhil bulwvY ] (839-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jay parabh bhaavai taa mahal bulaavai.

If God wills it so, then one is summoned to the Mansion of His Presence.

sbdy Bydy qau piq pwvY ] (839-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sabday bhayday ta-o pat paavai.

One who is pierced through by the Shabad, obtains honor.

kir kir vys Kpih jil jwvih ] (839-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

kar kar vays khapeh jal jaaveh.

Those who wear religious robes burn, and are ruined.

swcY swcy swic smwvih ]8] (839-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

saachai saachay saach samaaveh. ||8||

Through Truth, the truthful ones merge into the True Lord. ||8||

spqmI squ sMqoKu srIir ] (839-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

saptamee sat santokh sareer.

The Seventh Day: When the body is imbued with Truth and contentment,

swq smuMd Bry inrml nIir ] (839-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

saat samund bharay nirmal neer.

the seven seas within are filled with the Immaculate Water.

mjnu sIlu scu irdY vIcwir ] (839-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

majan seel sach ridai veechaar.

Bathing in good conduct, and contemplating the True Lord within the heart,

gur kY sbid pwvY siB pwir ] (839-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

gur kai sabad paavai sabh paar.

one obtains the Word of the Guru's Shabad, and carries everyone across.

min swcw muiK swcau Bwie ] (839-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

man saachaa mukh saacha-o bhaa-ay.

With the True Lord in the mind, and the True Lord lovingly on one's lips,

scu nIswxY Twk n pwie ]9] (839-17, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sach neesaanai thaak na paa-ay. ||9||

one is blessed with the banner of Truth, and meets with no obstructions. ||9||

AstmI Ast isiD buiD swDY ] (839-17, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

astamee asat siDh buDh saaDhai.

The Eighth Day: The eight miraculous powers come when one subdues his own mind,

scu inhkyvlu krim ArwDY ] (839-17, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sach nihkayval karam araaDhai.

and contemplates the True Lord through pure actions.

paux pwxI AgnI ibsrwau ] (839-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

pa-un paanee agnee bisraa-o.

Forget the three qualities of wind, water and fire,

qhI inrMjnu swco nwau ] (839-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

tahee niranjan saacho naa-o.

and concentrate on the pure True Name.

iqsu mih mnUAw rihAw ilv lwie ] (839-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

tis meh manoo-aa rahi-aa liv laa-ay.

That human who remains lovingly focused on the Lord,

pRxviq nwnku kwlu n Kwie ]10] (839-19, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

paranvat naanak kaal na khaa-ay. ||10||

prays Nanak, shall not be consumed by death. ||10||

nwau naumI nvy nwQ nv KMfw ] Git Git nwQu mhw blvMfw ] (839-19, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

naa-o na-umee navay naath nav khanda. ghat ghat naath mahaa balvandaa.

The Ninth Day: The Name is the supreme almighty Master of the nine masters of Yoga, the nine realms of the earth, and each and every heart.

AweI pUqw iehu jgu swrw ] (840-1, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aa-ee pootaa ih jag saaraa.

This whole world is the child of Maya.

pRB Awdysu Awid rKvwrw ] (840-1, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

parabh aadays aad rakhvaaraa.

I bow in submission to God, my Protector from the very beginning of time.

Awid jugwdI hY BI hogu ] (840-1, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aad jugaadee hai bhee hog.

He was in the beginning, He has been throughout the ages, He is now, and He shall always be.

Ehu AprMpru krxY jogu ]11] (840-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

oh aprampar karnai jog. ||11||

He is unlimited, and capable of doing everything. ||11||

dsmI nwmu dwnu iesnwnu ] (840-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

dasmee naam daan isnaan.

The Tenth Day: Meditate on the Naam, give to charity, and purify yourself.

Anidnu mjnu scw gux igAwnu ] (840-2, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

an-din majan sachaa gun gi-aan.

Night and day, bathe in spiritual wisdom and the Glorious Virtues of the True Lord.

sic mYlu n lwgY BRmu Bau BwgY ] (840-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sach mail na laagai bharam bha-o bhaagai.

Truth cannot be polluted; doubt and fear run away from it.

iblmu n qUtis kwcY qwgY ] (840-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

bilam na tootas kaachai taagai.

The flimsy thread breaks in an instant.

ijau qwgw jgu eyvY jwxhu ] (840-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ji-o taagaa jag ayvai jaanhu.

Know that the world is just like this thread.

AsiQru cIqu swic rMgu mwxhu ]12] (840-3, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

asthir cheet saach rang maanhu. ||12||

Your consciousness shall become steady and stable, enjoying the Love of the True Lord. ||12||

eykwdsI ieku irdY vswvY ] (840-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aykaadasee ik ridai vasaavai.

The Eleventh Day: Enshrine the One Lord within your heart.

ihMsw mmqw mohu cukwvY ] (840-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

hinsaa mamtaa moh chukhaavai.

Eradicate cruelty, egotism and emotional attachment.

Plu pwvY bRqu Awqm cInY ] (840-4, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

fal paavai barat aatam cheenai.

Earn the fruitful rewards, by observing the fast of knowing your own self.

pwKMif rwic qqu nhI bInY ] (840-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

pakhand raach tat nahee beenai.

One who is engrossed in hypocrisy, does not see the true essence.

inrmlu inrwhwru inhkyvlu ] (840-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

nirmal niraahaar nihkayval.

The Lord is immaculate, self-sustaining and unattached.

sUcY swcy nw lwgY mlu ]13] (840-5, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

soochai saachay naa laagai mal. ||13||

The Pure, True Lord cannot be polluted. ||13||

jh dyKau qh eyko eykw ] (840-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jah daykh-a-u tah ayko aykaa.

Wherever I look, I see the One Lord there.

hoir jIA aupwey vyko vykw ] (840-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

hor jee-a upaa-ay vayko vaykaa.

He created the other beings, of many and various kinds.

Plohwr kIey Plu jwie ] (840-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

falohaar kee-ay fal jaa-ay.

Eating only fruits, one loses the fruits of life.

rs ks Kwey swdu gvwie ] (840-6, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ras kas khaa-ay saad gavaa-ay.

Eating only delicacies of various sorts, one loses the true taste.

kUVY lwlic lptY lptwie ] (840-7, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

koorhai laalach laptai laptaa-ay.

In fraud and greed, people are engrossed and entangled.

CUtY gurmuiK swcu kmwie ]14] (840-7, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

chhootai gurmukh saach kamaa-ay. ||14||

The Gurmukh is emancipated, practicing Truth. ||14||

duAwdis mudRw mnu AauDUqw ] (840-7, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

du-aadas mudraa man a-uDhootaa.

The Twelfth Day: One whose mind is not attached to the twelve signs,

Aihinis jwgih kbih n sUqw ] (840-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ahinis jaageh kabeh na sootaa.

remains awake day and night, and never sleeps.

jwgqu jwig rhY ilv lwie ] (840-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jaagat jaag rahai liv laa-ay.

He remains awake and aware, lovingly centered on the Lord.

gur prcY iqsu kwlu n Kwie ] (840-8, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

gur parchai tis kaal na khaa-ay.

With faith in the Guru, he is not consumed by death.

AqIq Bey mwry bYrweI ] (840-9, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ateet bha-ay maaray bairaa-ee.

Those who become detached, and conquer the five enemies

pRxviq nwnk qh ilv lweI ]15] (840-9, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

paranvat naanak tah liv laa-ee. ||15||

- prays Nanak, they are lovingly absorbed in the Lord. ||15||

duAwdsI dieAw dwnu kir jwxY ] (840-9, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

du-aadasee da-i-aa daan kar jaanai.

The Twelfth Day: Know, and practice, compassion and charity.

bwhir jwqo BIqir AwxY ] (840-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

baahar jaato bheetar aanai.

Bring your out-going mind back home.

brqI brq rhY inhkwm ] (840-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

bartee barat rahai nihkaam.

Observe the fast of remaining free of desire.

Ajpw jwpu jpY muiK nwm ] (840-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ajpaa jaap japai mukh naam.

Chant the unchanted Chant of the Naam with your mouth.

qIin Bvx mih eyko jwxY ] (840-10, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

teen bhavan meh ayko jaanai.

Know that the One Lord is contained in the three worlds.

siB suic sMjm swcu pCwxY ]16] (840-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sabh such sanjam saach pachhaanai. ||16||

Purity and self-discipline are all contained in knowing the Truth. ||16||

qyris qrvr smud knwrY ] (840-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

tayras tarvar samud kanaarai.

The Thirteenth Day: He is like a tree on the sea-shore.

AMimRqu mUlu isKir ilv qwrY ] (840-11, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

amrit mool sikhar liv taarai.

But his roots can become immortal, if his mind is attuned to the Lord's Love.

fr fir mrY n bUfY koie ] (840-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

dar dar marai na boodai ko-ay.

Then, he will not die of fear or anxiety, and he will never drown.

infru bUif mrY piq Koie ] (840-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

nidar bood marai pat kho-ay.

Without the Fear of God, he drowns and dies, and loses his honor.

fr mih Gru Gr mih fru jwxY ] (840-12, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

dar meh ghar ghar meh dar jaanai.

With the Fear of God in his heart, and his heart in the Fear of God, he knows God.

qKiq invwsu scu min BwxY ]17] (840-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

takhat nivaas sach man bhaanai. ||17||

He sits on the throne, and becomes pleasing to the Mind of the True Lord. ||17||

caudis cauQy Qwvih lih pwvY ] (840-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

cha-udas cha-uthay thaaveh leh paavai.

The Fourteenth Day: One who enters into the fourth state,

rwjs qwms sq kwl smwvY ] (840-13, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

raajas taamas sat kaal samaavai.

overcomes time, and the three qualities of raajas, taamas and satva.

ssIAr kY Gir sUru smwvY ] (840-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sasee-ar kai ghar soor samaavai.

Then the sun enters into the house of the moon,

jog jugiq kI kImiq pwvY ] (840-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jog jugat kee keemat paavai.

and one knows the value of the technology of Yoga.

caudis Bvn pwqwl smwey ] KMf bRhmMf rihAw ilv lwey ]18] (840-14, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

cha-udas bhavan paataal samaa-ay. khand barahmand rahi-aa liv laa-ay. ||18||

He remains lovingly focused on God, who is permeating the fourteen worlds, the nether regions of the underworld, the galaxies and solar systems. ||18||

AmwvisAw cMdu gupqu gYxwir ] (840-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

amaavasi-aa chand gupat gainaar.

Amaavas - The Night of the New Moon: The moon is hidden in the sky.

bUJhu igAwnI sbdu bIcwir ] (840-15, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

boojhhu gi-aanee sabad beechaar.

O wise one, understand and contemplate the Word of the Shabad.

ssIAru ggin joiq iqhu loeI ] (840-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

sasee-ar gagan jot tihu lo-ee.

The moon in the sky illuminates the three worlds.

kir kir vyKY krqw soeI ] (840-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

kar kar vaykhai kartaa so-ee.

Creating the creation, the Creator beholds it.

gur qy dIsY so iqs hI mwih ] (840-16, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

gur tay deesai so tis hee maahi.

One who sees, through the Guru, merges into Him.

mnmuiK BUly Awvih jwih ]19] (840-17, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

manmukh bhoolay aavahi jaahi. ||19||

The self-willed manmukhs are deluded, coming and going in reincarnation. ||19||

Gru dru Qwip iQru Qwin suhwvY ] (840-17, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

ghar dar thaap thir thaan suhaavai.

One who establishes his home within his own heart, obtains the most beautiful, permanent place.

Awpu pCwxY jw siqguru pwvY ] (840-17, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

aap pachhaanai jaa satgur paavai.

One comes to understand his own self, when he finds the True Guru.

jh Awsw qh ibnis ibnwsw ] (840-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

jah aasaa tah binas binaasaa.

Wherever there is hope, there is destruction and desolation.

PUtY Kpru duibDw mnsw ] (840-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

footai khapar dubiDhaa mansaa.

The bowl of duality and selfishness breaks.

mmqw jwl qy rhY audwsw ] pRxviq nwnk hm qw ky dwsw ]20]1] (840-18, iblwvlu, mÚ 1)

mamtaa jaal tay rahai udaasaa. paranvat naanak ham taa kay daasaa. ||20||1||

Prays Nanak, I am the slave of that one, who remains detached amidst the traps of attachment. ||20||1||

If we go by littral meanings it talks about creatin of speaking and listening also.

and May ILohi bless you you seem to have forgot that Sikh Panth is more a semtic Faith and nothing Indian about it.

In Akalustat Guru tells that all worship God of Sikhs ie Akal.

As per Sau Sakhi Guru Tells that forefathers of Moses and Jesus were Brahmins(Akal worshipers) who left India as refualsa to foresake thier God and restore to idolatory as Budhsit King Nanda wanted them to.

Can you give and example that why rabbis keep uncut hairs.Yuo are gnostics and may not now Jews either.

Below thier Cap there are hairs like that of Brahmins Shikha.

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Rajs

I don't know you personally (and I am not the least bit interested either), therefore any comment I make about you could very well be taken with a pinch of salt. Nonetheless, reading your posts and responses over here and on Sikhsangat, I can be sure that your debating skills are pathetic. You confessed yourself on Sikhsangat that you are an ex-Sikh, which confirms my view that either your are one of those sell outs, or you are feeling so severely guilty that in order to share this guilt with someone else, you want to mess up another brain and recruit them in your category as well.

We Sikhs don't have anything against Christianity or Jesus. I am an ex-Hindu myself who took amrit only 17 months ago. But I don't go on Hindu forums and bash the religion because I feel I have found the true path and am happy following it. I let them be happy following their faith and I stay happy on my track. I don't have any insecurities about Hinduism and so I don't need to waste time dissing it. You on the other hand have loads of insecurities about Sikhism, which is why you point those out as flaws in the religion. What a sad way to debate and argue!!

I don't think you are getting at any higher spiritual stage by dissing another religion. If thats the case, I don't think you have any authority to come out of the blue and portray yourself as one who has come with the truth which alone can save us "doomed Sikhs". We have enough fake saints to do that and trust me we are getting sick of them.

You were a Sikh who became a Christian. You found the truth in Christianity, although you probably didn't go deep enough to understand Sikhism in the first place. But then again who am I to bother with that. You stay happy on your track and let others stay happy on theirs. Pointing fingers at things you don't fully know, or you don't understand will only raise the leve of your ignorance. So all I have to say to you is "Be the best Christian you can"! At the same time, let us be the best Sikhs we can. Since you claim to have found the truth in Christianity, why not spend time contemplating and following it rather than coming on cyber forums and teaching us what to do? You may cover up all this by saying "I just want to discuss", but dude, discussion would have been possible when you were still a Sikh and learning. Then things would have been different and your questions would be taken as querries from a seeker. Now that you've "found the way" and changed sides, any discussion from your side will turn into an inter-religious debate which usually gets nasty. So the solution is practise the truth that you claim to have discovered, and allow us to enjoy the gems and diamonds our Gurujee has blessed us with. If you are really guilty abot what you have done, you are always free to retrace your steps back. Jesus loves you right? Gurujee says Khalsa meri jaan ki jaan - Khalsa is the life of my life. So its still not too late bro.

Peace

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Dear Mekhane,

First of all, the Bible is a spiritual book representing God’s relationship with his creation, specifically mankind. It is not a thesis on dinosaurs or a chronological history of human race. It tells us about the saviour, Jesus Christ, God in incognito (if you will), how He came to redeem us from the sinful nature and reconcile us back to God, God who is Holy and without sin.

Whatever little the Bible tells us about the creation and the world in general, is immensely more than what Guru Granth has to offer in this matter. Your view that “The difference between Judaeo-Christian and Indian ways of looking at texts is that indians do not apply the test of historicity to prove that a text is true. the question of truth does not occur.†is indeed regrettable. To begin with, you cannot speak on behalf of “all†the Indians. Additionally, if the question of truth does not apply to text in historical sense then, Sir, I'm afraid you are reading fiction. .

Kind regards

Rajs

Many thanks for your reply, most gracious of you.

The main reason for bringing up the point about dinosaurs and interpretations of texts is that most Westerners believe scriptures are historic accounts, not metaphorical. Therefore ressurection of Christ and "God" as a distinctly seperate entity were taken at face value, not metaphorically. The indian equivalent of Judaeo-Christian God in my view is the Aryan God Indra, there are many similarities between Yahweh and Indra.

Additionally, if the question of truth does not apply to text in historical sense then, Sir, I'm afraid you are reading fiction

Who are you to judge what is truth and what is not. Does an event have to happened in history to make it true? My view is it does not. Something is true if it makes sense to me personally, it is true from my subjective point of view. It seems to me your definition of truth is very narrow only accpeting historic events as truth.

One last point, if you accept "facts" in the Bible about Jesus's ressurection, why do you not believe the myth of Adam and Eve being the first man and women on Earth, if they were the first of Gods creation what about dinosaurs. Do you believe there was a Garden of Eden? Do you believe heaven is an actual place?

You cannot pick and choose what bits to believe from the Bible. Parts that cannot be reconciled with modern day evidence you choose to ignore (Big Bang)

I have tried being polite and tried offering constructive discussion, but you insult my guru, with polemics and totally un-backed up statements.

Whatever little the Bible tells us about the creation and the world in general, is immensely more than what Guru Granth has to offer in this matter

This is my last post in dialogue with you, as far as i am concerned you can stick your [Mod-Edit], mate, and maybe come back when you learn some manners, just putting KIND REGARDS at the end of a message does not constitute manners. I find your attitude condesceding, and this attitude pervades your posts.

Kind Regards

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Nice reply by Mekhane'ch Jannat (Bahadur Singh ??) :D

and Rajs, is this all you're going to do with your life? You've spent years on almost all well known Sikh forums politely insulting our Gurus. Just think of how upset Jesus must be with you.

Go back to the christian institute of Sikh studies and tell them they suck at whatever the hell they teach. :idea:

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Dear Mekhane,

"why do you not believe the myth of Adam and Eve being the first man and women on Earth, if they were the first of Gods creation what about dinosaurs. Do you believe there was a Garden of Eden? Do you believe heaven is an actual place?" - Mekhane

I never said I do not believe in Adam and Eve being the first man and woman on earth.

Yes, I believe there is Garden of Eden.

Yes, I believe Heaven is an actual place.

Regards

Rajs

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Dear All,

I guess, my posts are being taken in the wrong context. Lot of accusations are flying left, right and centre. As per advice, I am taking everything with a “pinch of salt,†I hope the favour could be returned!

1. Being condescending:

My faith only allows room for Jesus and none other. Your faith allows room for Ram, Krishan, Mohammed, Buddha, Mahavir, etc, etc. Perhaps, conviction of my belief that “Jesus is the only way for salvation†comes across too strong for your liking. However, I make no apology for it.

2. Pathetic debater:

I wasn’t aware that forum was for debate only! I only wanted to tender my views and personal experience from an ex-Sikh’s perspective. Thinking, perhaps, there are other Sikhs, who struggle with similar questions. As for my lack of skill to engage in debate - guilty as charged.

3. Christian Missionary:

I am not a Jehovah witnesser, Baba Nijjar, or someone under pressure to “spread†the Word. I do not belong to any Christian institute of Sikh studies. I do not need to get to a higher spiritual stage or feel guilty about leaving Sikhism. I sincerely do not recall asking any of you to convert to Christianity, individually, or collectively. I am making a truth known at the forum not enforcing it upon anyone.

4. Insulting Gurus:

I have not insulted any Gurus only presented my opinion about them. My opinion on Gurus is no more insulting than your views on Jesus. Just like you do not believe in Jesus or some things about him, in the same way, I feel about the Gurus. The difference is that you see it as an insult, I do not. Furthermore, Moderators are not sleeping but aware of the contents of my posts.

Sincerely

Rajs

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you've "tendered" you're views, right?

you've gotten replies, right?

now what the hell you still doing here?

seriously jass, no matter which way you spin it, you really have a pitiful life if you need to hound Sikh forums all your life in order to fulfill some divine instruction.

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dude...why tell him to get lost

This forum is for people to learn and ask questions about Sikhi (Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike). Other sub-forums are available if people wish to discuss other religions. Even a casual glance at his posts will make his motives of proselytizing ample clear. If he has no genuine questions or interest in Sikhi then what is his benefit to the sangat? Why should we tolerate this ‘Rajs’ attempts (laughable and uneducated though they may be) to slander us and/or our faith?

be Nirvair

No Vair here. Pity, perhaps, but no Vair.

I vote to give 'Rajs' a boot :D

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rajs

well its your choice you want to be a christian than let it be. but did you get answers to all your questions or now you have a different set of questions.

you can call yourself a christian, a sikh , a hindu or a muslim but does that actually change anything.

guru sahib preached truth and did so with humility. be honest and tell me that listening to rehraas sahib in sangat have you not felt guru sahib's presence.

or have ever been to gurdwara at amrit vela and did nitnem. i dont need a proof for what can feel.but time has proved that what guru sahib chooses for me is better for me.so why do i need a promise for heaven the time spent listening kirtan is more precious than promise of heaven or fear of hell.

you have become a christian than thats what guru sahib wanted. so what exactly do you want to achieve here, i fail to understand.

by the way even though you have turned back towards guru , guru sahib will still welcome you although you are a christian . because this one door was open to kashmiri pandits when all other doors closed and still is.

( guru sahib never said i am here only for hindus , muslims or jews . i hope you have read bible as much you read guru granth sahib because i saw your posting pointing kabir sahib's shabad about baba adam.i hope you got my hint)

if you go to heaven and get a chance to meet god than pass on thanks from sikhs for giving us gurbani.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=1134

sathigur a(n)dharahu niravair hai sabh dhaekhai breham eik soe ||

The True Guru has no hatred within Him; He beholds the One God everywhere.

waheguru

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Gurfateh

Baba Ji das is aware that your views are as per gnostic mystism.(Which also agrees to Pagan's sprituality. For this das salutes you).

views of Das rather are more like Jehova Witness cult,Baptists,Hebronals,Penticostal,Jesuits and Geerk Orthodox.

Das deem Chrsitianity as way to be son of God like Jesus.And Das thinks Gurmat is way to make us Brahm Gyani as Jesus.So Ds feels himself as Treu Christian while being as Sikh.

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