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A sad story from a Sikh Sister


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Guest Javanmard

Islamophobia is a very UK Sikh thing. Sikhs elsewhere seem to stick to a more reasonable attitude towards other religions even in India despite huge anti-Muslim propaganda. But with the UK it's a different deal which I think has got more to do with UK specific factors than religion per se. In any case it's all about one tribe versus another tribe each tribe using God against the other, idolworshipers in the guise of monotheists...

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Islamophobia is a very UK Sikh thing. Sikhs elsewhere seem to stick to a more reasonable attitude towards other religions even in India despite huge anti-Muslim propaganda. But with the UK it's a different deal which I think has got more to do with UK specific factors than religion per se. In any case it's all about one tribe versus another tribe each tribe using God against the other, idolworshipers in the guise of monotheists...

So are you saying that there is nothing wrong with a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim guy?

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It is not Islamophobia, the Sikhs dont hate Islam. It is the Punjabi culture, both Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Sikhs ( accurately Paki Punjabis and Indian Punjabi) do have a problem with eachother.

I dont get what u are meaning wit

idolworshipers in the guise of monotheists...
, plz explain.. :)
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Guest Javanmard

Singh47 wrote:

So are you saying that there is nothing wrong with a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim guy?

The Rahitnamah literature encourages Sikh parents to marry their children to Sikhs. The reason for it is not just community politics (keeping the females within the community) but also because it is easier spiritually to be with someone who shares the same longing for the didar of Maharaj. The ideal of one soul in two bodies as explained in gurbani is to be reciprocated in married life and having the same maryade makes it easier.

This is the ideal.

The reality is nevertheless often different. If God blesses me with daughters, as a father I would be highly concerned about their choices of a life partner. The ideal of course would be a chivalrous, honourable, educated, cultured, mature and good looking Singh. Fact remains that so far in my life I have only met 3 to 5 people who match that profile. As a father I really would hate to see my daughter get married to a beer drinking trimmed Bhangra Singh, an ex-druggie turned Khalistani-AKJ (not in my definition of Sikh anyway) or a philistine engineer Singh. I know that I am going to get accused of being elitist but that's just the way I am...Nobody's perfect but my personal experience with many UK Singhs (not all just many of them) has led me to understand why many Sikh girls don't want to marry one (see examples I have given).

If my daughter wishes to marry a chivalrous, honourable, cultured, God-fearing, God-loving and mature man who would happen to be Christian (Catholic or Orthodox) or Muslim (Shi'a, Sufi) who respects her beliefs then she has my blessings. There is no monopoly on honour or love of God. If both can work out their differences and see a source of strength in them, they have my blessings.

To respond to kikz on my remark on "idolworshipers disguised as monotheists" I make refernce to those people from monotheist communities (Sikh, Muslim, Christian etc..) who outwardly present themselves as religious but who in fact do it in the name of the exaltation of their community-tribe-qaum feeling. What they worship is not God but their collective ego as a tribe and use religion for it. Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of Panjabi Sikh believe in caste (as if caste determined honour, maturity and honesty...) I doubt very much that my daughters would get married to a Panjabi Singh but I have met exceptions (thank God) of true Singhs. Just a shame that they're not the majority.

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To respond to kikz on my remark on "idolworshipers disguised as monotheists" I make refernce to those people from monotheist communities (Sikh, Muslim, Christian etc..) who outwardly present themselves as religious but who in fact do it in the name of the exaltation of their community-tribe-qaum feeling. What they worship is not God but their collective ego as a tribe and use religion for it. Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of Panjabi Sikh believe in caste (as if caste determined honour, maturity and honesty...)

I don’t understand how you come up with these new terms now and then, but according to dictionary.com the definition of ‘idolworshiper’ is "a person who worships idols". I think what you are trying to refer to is 'tribalism'. That's not the same or anywhere near the same as idolworshiper. In fact, they are not even synonyms of one another.

I doubt very much that my daughters would get married to a Panjabi Singh but I have met exceptions (thank God) of true Singhs. Just a shame that they're not the majority.

I thank Vaheguru, those kinds of people are not the majority, but just the fringe of Sikh society.

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Guest Javanmard

Singh47 wrote:

In other words, you have no problem with a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim man but you have a problem with a Sikh girl marrying an Amritdhari Sikh whose rehet (AKJ, SGPC, Taksal) or political ideology you are in disagreement. That’s all I wanted to know. Thank you very much for your reply.

You're welcome! I am actually just talking about my potential daughters...What other people make with their lives is really none of my business.

Singh47 wrote:

Does that monopoly only belong to Catholic/Orthodox Christians, Muslim Shias and a few Sikh groups on the fringe, or can anyone from any faith belief have honour and love of God?

Never spoke of monopoly Singh47. An honourable Protestant, Jain, Atheist, AKJ or Nazi is a possibility.I mean it may well exist. I have met honourable atheists in my life but I wouldn't like my daughter to marry one. But honour alone is not enough in my eyes. As a traditionalist (in the Guénonian sense) I think that orthodoxy is crucial too.

In case you're trying to drag me into another tit for tat discussion, i'll tell you straight: you're too old for my yet to be born daughter. So leave it!

And finally Singh47 wrote:

I don’t understand how you come up with these new terms now and then, but according to dictionary.com the definition of ‘idolworshiper’ is "a person who worships idols". I think what you are trying to refer to is 'tribalism'. That's not the same or anywhere near the same as idolworshiper. In fact, they are not even synonyms of one another.

Singh47 thank you for reminding me of the difference between 'idolworshiper' and 'tribalist'. It made me take my blonde wig off. Thank you Singh47!

I am actually using a comparison made already by the illustrous Sir Mohammad Iqbal (whom Sant Singh Maskin loved to quote). He declared that nationalism was idolworship in the sense that nationalists (or mega-tribalists) make the notion of the collective group into a mental idol.

Wow I feel better as a non-blonde. Thank you!

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It is people like you who sometimes make me want to thank God for Punjabi Sikhs being so tribalistic in nature and not as Khulam Khula as you where they will allow their daughters and sisters to marry Muslim men. I don’t hate Muslims, but some things just should not be happening, and a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim man is one of them. If such views make me a ‘Nazi’ in your views, then so be it.

Now if a Muslim man were to become a Sikh, then I have no problem with him marrying a Sikh girl.

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Guest Javanmard

Well good for you Singh47. If you're happy like that...cool!

You're entitled to your vision of the world!!! And trust me I am the last person on earth to want to pollute your sacred pure race!!!

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I some what agree with singh247 parji. I feel very strong about inter racial marriages. esp if the guy / gyal marrys a muslim. For many years sikhs have died to protect our right to be sikhs. feels sometimes when a sikh peraon marrys a muslim that they have turned there back on all the ppl who gave up there lives.

i dont mean to offend just my point of view

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That's wonderful indeed...I am sure that Sikh women world wide are grateful to you for allowing them to marry non-Panjabi Sikhs. Too grateful indeed!

Indeed, I'm sure Sikh fathers and brothers worldwide are just delighted to know that you have no problem with young Sikh girls marrying Muslim men.

Is there anything that you will not do just to appease the followers of the Ahlul Bayt?

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Singh47 thank you for reminding me of the difference between 'idolworshiper' and 'tribalist'. It made me take my blonde wig off. Thank you Singh47!

I am actually using a comparison made already by the illustrous Sir Mohammad Iqbal (whom Sant Singh Maskin loved to quote). He declared that nationalism was idolworship in the sense that nationalists (or mega-tribalists) make the notion of the collective group into a mental idol.

Wow I feel better as a non-blonde. Thank you!

I doubt very much that Iqbal said that, but even if he did say that, it seems highly hypocritical of him considering the fact that he inspired many Pakistani leaders the very idea of Pakistan.

BTW, I'm proud to be a Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh Jee and if that makes me an 'idolworshiper' in your eyes, then so be it.

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Guest Javanmard

Well I don't see how the way I run my family is of any concern for Sikh fathers and brothers worldwide who can't even protect female embryos from being killed! Of what concern is that to them anyway?

"oooo Javanmard you're not offering your daughters to the rest of us male Sikhs!!! You traitor!!!"

If you guys think that Sikh women are "community property" and that it's up to YOU to decide who THEY should or should not marry then that's your choice.

I just believe that a woman has the right to decide who she wants to marry. Of course as a father I would have my preferences but then again I am not the one marrying the guy!

You see I consider Sikh women as individuals not as "tribal Sikh property" to be available to Sikh men.And hence I believe individuals can make choices. If my daughter finds herself an honourable Singh I'll be happy as long as she's happy. But if the guy happens to be an honourable Shi'a and if she's happy with him then I am happy too.

And if that's a problem for other Sikh males gues what? I DON'T CARE!

And yes Muhammad Iqbal said that natinalism is an idol in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam.

And yet again if you take everything I say twist it and transform it into a personal insult...YOUR PROBLEM! I never said Singhs of Guru Gobind Singh were idolworshippers: you did! But then again whatever makes you happy...

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Well I don't see how the way I run my family is of any concern for Sikh fathers and brothers worldwide who can't even protect female embryos from being killed! Of what concern is that to them anyway?

"oooo Javanmard you're not offering your daughters to the rest of us male Sikhs!!! You traitor!!!"

If you guys think that Sikh women are "community property" and that it's up to YOU to decide who THEY should or should not marry then that's your choice.

I just believe that a woman has the right to decide who she wants to marry. Of course as a father I would have my preferences but then again I am not the one marrying the guy!

You see I consider Sikh women as individuals not as "tribal Sikh property" to be available to Sikh men.And hence I believe individuals can make choices. If my daughter finds herself an honourable Singh I'll be happy as long as she's happy. But if the guy happens to be an honourable Shi'a and if she's happy with him then I am happy too.

And if that's a problem for other Sikh males gues what? I DON'T CARE!

And yes Muhammad Iqbal said that natinalism is an idol in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam.

And yet again if you take everything I say twist it and transform it into a personal insult...YOUR PROBLEM! I never said Singhs of Guru Gobind Singh were idolworshippers: you did! But then again whatever makes you happy...

Lalleshwari, I'm not twisting anything, you said that you have no problem if your daughter marries a Muslim, yet you have a problem if she marries an amritdhari whose rehet you are in disagreement with. Personally I respect Shias and their Imams, but I wouldn't go to the extent of marrying my daughters or sisters to Shias just to make them happy.

Perhaps my rustic ways are tribalistic (according to you!) or maybe still a little paindu, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I allow my yet to be born daughters to marry a Muslim!

BTW, it seems a little strange that even though our Gurus and great GurSikhs through out history had very warm reletions with Muslims, yet none married there sisters and daughters to Muslims. Perhaps they are also very tribalistic and Nazi like for you.

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Guest Javanmard

1. You still don't get it do you? You are among those who believe that they can marry their daughter to someone else. And I am just of those who, whilst still having prefences, believe that my daughter has the right to chose who she marries be he a Singh, a Shia, a Sufi or a Greek Orthodox!

If think you have the power to marry your daughter off in the first place and that you don't want to marry her off to a Shi'a, guess what? I don't care! I am not interested!

2. Singh47 wrote:

BTW, it seems a little strange that even though our Gurus and great GurSikhs through out history had very warm reletions with Muslims, yet none married there sisters and daughters to Muslims. Perhaps they are also very tribalistic and Nazi like for you.

The Gurus didn't marry out of their caste does that mean Sikhs shouldn't marry out of caste?

3. Of what concern is it to you if I prefer my daughter not to marry the types of Singhs I mentioned before? And of what concern is that to others?

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1. You still don't get it do you? You are among those who believe that they can marry their daughter to someone else. And I am just of those who, whilst still having prefences, believe that my daughter has the right to chose who she marries be he a Singh, a Shia, a Sufi or a Greek Orthodox!

If think you have the power to marry your daughter off in the first place and that you don't want to marry her off to a Shi'a, guess what? I don't care! I am not interested!

Then don’t go around passing your judgment on others by calling them tribal, anti-Muslim/Islamophobic, idol worshipers simply because they don’t agree with you or don’t want their daughters and sisters marrying Muslim men. This may seem like a shock to you, but people aren’t very eager to being judged by you.

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Guest Javanmard

You asked me my opinion remember? You asked me to pass my judgement and so I did. You didn't like it. Too bad! If you feel offended: your choice!

Remember? you wrote this:

So are you saying that there is nothing wrong with a Sikh girl marrying a Muslim guy?

I gave you my judgement-opinion...

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Don't you think that , if you are born into a sikh family , ( i.e you believe in the sri guru granth sahib ) that we should should educate our children according to its teachings and try (not forcefully) make our children follow the sikh path ?

When they have grown up ( god willing) they will follow that path and their partner follow the same path , rather than saying our children can marry a person from another religion without giving them an opportunity to learn and practice the sikh religion and if then they don't 'get any isnpiration from sikhism' , then they can decide on another path and find a suitable partner accordingly ?

I also beleive that we humans compare ourselves to the GURUs too much, we haven't even got 0.0001% quality within us to justify our gurus actions , so the comparison is useless

just a few thoughts

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