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Guest Javanmard

Nirgun=un-manifested, attribute-less aspect of the Divinity. Refers to the Unknowable Essence of the Divine,Absolute Being, the Theos Agnostos.

Saguna = with attributes, manifested aspect of Divinity, refers to the Face of God, the Pure Existence.

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GURMAT AND NATURALISMS

Dr Kanwar Ranvir Singh

Nirgun Sargun Ik Hai" = the Formless and the forms Is One. This teaching is the basis for the perspective that all matter is holy and indeed, in a state-of-being conscious. Matter includes the solar systems, the earth, and us. For, "Water, wind, fire sing to You…Sing continents, worlds, and solar systems, which have been made and established." (Sodar or That Gate, which appears in both morning and evening prayers)..

For Sikhs, there is a cosmic symphony of Praise which is going on and the choice is simply whether to join in, improvising the Unstruck Melody, or jarring against it. "The sky is the plate, upon which are placed the sun and moon as lamps and stars as pearls. The fragrance of sandalwood is the incense, the winds the fan and all vegetation are the flowers. How can we perform Your Worship, Destroyer of Fears? The Unstruck Melody plays and the Word is the tender flute. Your eyes are thousands, but You have no eye. Your forms are thousands, but You have no form…Light is in all , this Light is One. This Light causes the radiance of enlightenment to arise in all." (Sohila, bedtime prayer)

Since the Light is in all, Sikhs have no problem with the beliefs of indigenous peoples, which rather, are respected as different angles on the Truth. What is notable is the sharing of images and practises, for instance, the uncut hair of the native Americans and the kesh of the Sikhs. "Victory to the cauldron and the sword!" proclaimed the Druid-loving Gauls in 'Asteriks' comics. Degh Tegh Fateh!! is the Sikh slogan with precisely the same meaning. The double-edged sword, the Khanda, is used to stir the cauldron, the batta, while the Elixir of Life, Khande-de-Pahul, amrit, is trans-created and given to initiate new members in the Order of the Khalsa. "Behold this sword Excalibur, which rose form the lake of still meditation and was returned to it again. The Sword of Spirit, of light and truth, is always sharp and always with us, if our lake be stilled." What Sikhs call the nectar-sweet amrit is what the Norse referred to as the mead of immortality, the drink of the One-harriers, those who realised the One. Then there is the reverence for "Mata Dharat Mahat", the Great Earth Mother. Earth is to be respected as our common mother with all other forms. Taoism precisely expresses the belief of "sehaj"; that Spontaneous Joy, which is called wu-wei. To be natural is to be allowing the Light of God to bask in your being.

Source : www.SikhSpirit.com

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Guest Javanmard

Why do you guy bother with that islamicboard. For God's sake these people follow the path of those who betrayed the Prophet (pbuh) and his family. Let them remain in their ignorance and let them deserve their deeper place in hell. As pearls shouldn't be given to swines, you shouldn't go on forums like that and teach them about things they don't desere to know. These people refuse to follow their own religion let alone know that of others. So let them be how they are and work on your own spiritual progress.

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Somebody asked the sangat on another forum this query regarding nirgun and sargun:

Nihal's query:

Some theologist also argue that sargun and nirgun form cant exist at the same time, where as gurbani propogates the existence of both at the same time, Can you provide a theological argument that they do both exist at the same time, Form and Formless. Maybe of the topic but interesting to know

And my repond to his query:

You are right Gurbani propagates existence of both (nirgun and sargun) at the same time.

For example- Gurbani talks about it clearly:

Sargun Nirankaar Sun Smadhi Aap, Apan Kia Nanka Apan Hi Fir Jaap ||

Nirgun transcedents itself not fully but attributes/qualities into Sargun form. As Sikhs we do not beleive in incarnation of God. i think after doing deep search on this topic and exploring all the gurbani tuks talking about it..one comes to know that holy person being alive cannot fully merge with nirgun..they are limited to whatever attributes/qualities nirgun transcedents into them..however, after leaving panj bhotak chola (this body made of five elements) since holy saints negates their individualistic mind/their consciouness diseased with 5 vices...they are merged fully with Nirankar..that why in sukhmani sahib it says- Bhramgyani App Nirankar ||

Bhagat Kabir also says- Jis Maran Jagat Darie Mera Mann Anand, Maran hiii Paaie Poora Parmanand ||

Note: Anand, Parmanand words are used in that verse...one is bliss before leaving body and second is supreme bliss after leaving body.

Nirgun and Sargun has to exist at the same time...where nirgun transcdent some of its quality in sargun form to spread all of its attributes to people....if there is no sargun.. there is no creation...but there is only nirgun in its sun samadhi...but during the creation- Nirgun and Sargun must exist simentiounously.

we beleive in complete negatation of "jiv" atman..after negetation there is no jiv but atma-paratma(nirgun)...atma goes back to its orginal state which is-

~ Deh Nahi Tu (You are not body), Tu Sat Hai (you are the truth), Tu Chit Hai ( you are the super consciousness), Tu Anand Saroop Hai (you are the bliss manifestation of Vahiguroo/God) ~...

soul is [sat Chit AnandSvaroop]- supreme truth, supreme consciousness and supreme bliss..

I don't know if my post offers any theological argument...i posted what i read from sikhi spiritual school thought which is Advait Sikh Gurmat Sidhant...!

This is also very deep for me...i m learning as we speak.

I hope i didn't made you even more confused.

may be pheena, javanmard, tsingh and others can enlighten more, provide more solid theological argument on nirgun and sarguna.

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  • 1 month later...

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-re...sikhism-31.html

Well folks after being banned 4 times, the debate continues to rage on in total ignorance of the last 20 or so pages where all their questions were answered, so what went wrong? well more sikhs came on the forum and we all contradicted one another and so the muslims exploited this and were back to square one, confusion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really get angry reading what these people are writing about sikhism I wish I knew who they were and where they lived I would love to terrorise these egotistical mussalmaan they get on my nerves BIGTIME, now they have released a stupid cartoon called "muhammed the last prophet" they are spreading lies to the world that theres is the last religion how can people deny reality soooo badly, do you think if you were born in a muslim family you would pretend sikhism never happened just to make you feel better about being a muslim?

tut tut tut

ps if any of you are participants on that site let me make it very clear that the member known as mohnsin has asked and has had answered all the questions he keeps asking you guys, his ego refuses to accept those answers so he changes them slightly and asks them again, his arguments are not only applicable to sikhism but to judaism christianity and most other religions but in his ignorance he feels that islam is exempt from such scrutiny. Koran is not the word of god and this must be challenged stop softening the blow by saying we believe that islam is a path to god, sufism is the part which our gurus reverred and saw progress in terms of islam not the islam practiced today.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Nirgun = Akaal (timelessness, not subject to change/movement, outside of time/energy/matter)

Sargun = Kaal (time, movement, energy, ever changing matter, continious changing of forms etc.)

Since Akaal is not subject to Kaal aspect, therefore both Nirgun and Sargun exist at the same "time". But remember Akaal (The Timeless) is not subject to Kaal (Time).

Hope that helps. :wink:

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  • 9 years later...

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