Jump to content

Recommended Posts

FOOLS WHO WRANGLE OVER FLESH

FOREWARD

The authors of this paper (one a vegetarian and one meat eating Sikh) wrangled hard with their own common sense which told them, “don’t be a fool and start wrangling over an issue which our great Guru’s dismissed as not worthy of discussionâ€. We did however feel as amateur Sikh Historians and commentators on Sikh affairs that we should use our knowledge and experience to clarify what is such a controversial issue. This essay out to be objective as possible but we ourselves probably taking one side as we waded through the arguments and counter arguments produced by vegetarian and meat eating Sikhs. One thing that has incensed us is the use of incorrect History and mistranslation to back up arguments. It was these points that we felt needed clarification and we hope the reader will find that this essay does that.

MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION OF THE SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI

Some of the tukhs of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that are often mistranslated are as follows:

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1377)

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

5. In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us analyse each one of these one by one.

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat. ||231||

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked. ||231||

kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.

Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,

bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. ||232||

whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. ||232||

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.

Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.

sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. ||234||

I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know. ||234||

aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.

Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.

neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. ||235||

Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. ||235||

sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.

Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.

jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. ||236||

I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my

soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.

Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.

arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi. ||237||

He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||

har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.

The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.

kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. ||238||

Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.

khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. ||239||

Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. ||239||

kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.

Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.

kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl. ||240||

Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. ||240||

dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.

Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.

kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. ||241||

Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee? ||241||

har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.

Forsaking the Diamond of the Lord, the mortals put their hopes in another.

tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. ||242||

Those people shall go to hell; Ravi Daas speaks the Truth. ||242||

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243||

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. ||233||

no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.

Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. ||243||

If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. ||243||

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

2. You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS p332)

Again let us put this into its correct context:

ik-oNkaar satgur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

jeevat pitar na maanai ko-oo moo-ayN siraaDh karaahee.

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

pitar bhee bapuray kaho ki-o paavahi ka-oo-aa kookar khaahee. ||1||

Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||

mo ka-o kusal bataavhu ko-ee.

If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

kusal kusal kartay jag binsai kusal bhee kaisay ho-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found? ||1||Pause||

maatee kay kar dayvee dayvaa tis aagai jee-o dayhee.

Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

aisay pitar tumaaray kahee-ahi aapan kahi-aa na layhee. ||2||

Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. ||2||

sarjee-o kaateh nirjee-o poojeh ant kaal ka-o bhaaree.

You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

raam naam kee gat nahee jaanee bhai doobay sansaaree. ||3||

You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. ||3||

dayvee dayvaa poojeh doleh paarbarahm nahee jaanaa.

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

kahat kabeer akul nahee chayti-aa bikhi-aa si-o laptaanaa. ||4||1||45||

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||

Quite clearly when put into context this is nothing to do with meat eating. What is being alluded to is Hindu sacrificial rituals (eg Anustarani http://www.sanskrit.org/www/Rites%20...rs2.html#_ftn4) where animals were sacrificed on the funeral pyre, ancestors or to deities. Yet the Brahmins who performed these rituals were themselves devout vegetarians. This is a comment about the futility of animal sacrifices to stone idols and dead ancestors. It is a comment on hypocrisy.

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)

Again, let us put this into context:

parbhaatee.

Prabhaatee:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai. ||1||

You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||

mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.

O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?

tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. ||1||Pause||

pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.

You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.

jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa. ||2||

The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed? ||2||

ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.

And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?

ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa. ||3||

Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca? ||3||

tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.

You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.

kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa. ||4||4||

Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell. ||4||4||

Again put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate God’s asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul won’t travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

4. Bhagat Kabir says, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt. You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ? (SGGS p1374)

Let us add this to the correct context:

oraa gar paanee bha-i-aa jaa-ay mili-o dhal kool. ||177||

The hail-stone has melted into water, and flowed into the ocean. ||177||

kabeeraa Dhoor sakayl kai puree-aa baaNDhee dayh.

Kabeer, the body is a pile of dust, collected and packed together.

divas chaar ko paykhnaa ant khayh kee khayh. ||178||

It is a show which lasts for only a few days, and then dust returns to dust. ||178||

kabeer sooraj chaaNd kai udai bha-ee sabh dayh.

Kabeer, bodies are like the rising and setting of the sun and the moon.

gur gobind kay bin milay palat bha-ee sabh khayh. ||179||

Without meeting the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, they are all reduced to dust again. ||179||

jah anbha-o tah bhai nahee jah bha-o tah har naahi.

Where the Fearless Lord is, there is no fear; where there is fear, the Lord is not there.

kahi-o kabeer bichaar kai sant sunhu man maahi. ||180||

Kabeer speaks after careful consideration; hear this, O Saints, in your minds. ||180||

kabeer jinahu kichhoo jaani-aa nahee tin sukh need bihaa-ay.

Kabeer, those who do not know anything, pass their lives in peaceful sleep.

hamhu jo boojhaa boojhnaa pooree paree balaa-ay. ||181||

But I have understood the riddle; I am faced with all sorts of troubles. ||181||

laagee chot maramm kee rahi-o kabeeraa tha-ur. ||182||

Struck by the Mystery of God, Kabeer remains silent. ||182||

kabeer chot suhaylee sayl kee laagat lay-ay usaas.

Kabeer, the stroke of a lance is easy to bear; it takes away the breath.

chot sahaarai sabad kee taas guroo mai daas. ||183||

But one who endures the stroke of the Word of the Shabad is the Guru, and I am his slave. ||183||

kabeer mulaaN munaaray ki-aa chadheh saaN-ee na bahraa ho-ay.

Kabeer: O Mullah, why do you climb to the top of the minaret? The Lord is not hard of hearing.

jaa kaaran tooN baaNg deh dil hee bheetar jo-ay. ||184||

Look within your own heart for the One, for whose sake you shout your prayers. ||184||

saykh sabooree baahraa ki-aa haj kaabay jaa-ay.

Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?

kabeer jaa kee dil saabat nahee taa ka-o kahaaN khudaa-ay. ||185||

Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||

kabeer alah kee kar bandagee jih simrat dukh jaa-ay.

Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.

dil meh saaN-ee pargatai bujhai balantee naaN-ay. ||186||

The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ||187||

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188||

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.

Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

harakh sog daajhai nahee tab har aapeh aap. ||189||

He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar. ||190||

Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.

Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk. ||191||

One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

kabeer jaa ghar saaDh na sayvee-ah har kee sayvaa naahi.

Kabeer, those houses in which neither the Holy nor the Lord are served –

tay ghar marhat saarkhay bhoot baseh tin maahi. ||192||

those houses are like cremation grounds; demons dwell within them. ||192||

kabeer goongaa hoo-aa baavraa bahraa hoo-aa kaan.

Kabeer, I have become mute, insane and deaf.

paavhu tay pingul bha-i-aa maari-aa satgur baan. ||193||

I am crippled - the True Guru has pierced me with His Arrow. ||193||

kabeer satgur soormay baahi-aa baan jo ayk.

Kabeer, the True Guru, the Spiritual Warrior, has shot me with His Arrow.

laagat hee bhu-ay gir pari-aa paraa karayjay chhayk. ||194||

As soon as it struck me, I fell to the ground, with a hole in my heart. ||194||

kabeer nirmal boond akaas kee par ga-ee bhoom bikaar.

Kabeer, the pure drop of water falls from the sky, onto the dirty ground.

At one level this is a mistranslation and at another misrepresentation of the context within which this is written:

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188||

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

In the above Gurmukhi, there is no mention of meat whatsoever. The person who has tried to translate this has added his/her own spin .What this is actually saying is that to the follower of the Guru or one who has been touched by God a simple dish of Kheechree (lentils and rice), flavoured with salt is enough. To have something more exotic to eat you would not cut your own throat (the western equivalent would be to cut your own nose off to spite your face). In no way is this tukh anything to do with meat eating and the person who has misrepresented and mistranslated it should be held to account for his/her actions.

5.In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS p1242)

Again, let us put this into context:

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

kal ho-ee kutay muhee khaaj ho-aa murdaar.

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; they eat rotting carcasses for food.

koorh bol bol bha-ukanaa chookaa Dharam beechaar.

They bark and speak, telling only lies; all thought of righteousness has left them.

jin jeevandi-aa pat nahee mu-i-aa mandee so-ay.

Those who have no honor while alive, will have an evil reputation after they die.

likhi-aa hovai naankaa kartaa karay so ho-ay. ||1||

Whatever is predestined, happens, O Nanak; whatever the Creator does, comes to pass. ||1||

At first glance one notices that this paragraph is clearly a metaphor for people who behave like dogs. The dog is a scavenger, hunts in packs, fights within its pack, eats practically anything it can find etc etc. This entire Ang talks about people greed and those that lack honour when they are alive.

The second point to note is the mistranslation. Murdaar is not the word for meat. Murdaar is a reference to people who are dead. In other words people are acting so much like dogs that when people have died they gather round to get as much as they can. A good analogy would be inheritance, where is some instances people try and contest them or try and grab for themselves as much as they can. In India, it has not been unusual to murder siblings of inheritance disputes. In fact the word Murder in the English language has come from the word Murdaar.

6. Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24

Let us again see this in context:

sireeraag mehlaa 1 ghar 4.

Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

ayk su-aan du-ay su-aanee naal.

The dogs of greed are with me.

bhalkay bha-ukahi sadaa ba-i-aal.

In the early morning, they continually bark at the wind.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||1||

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||1||

mai pat kee pand na karnee kee kaar.

I have not followed good advice, nor have I done good deeds.

ha-o bigrhai roop rahaa bikraal.

I am deformed and horribly disfigured.

tayraa ayk naam taaray sansaar.

Your Name alone, Lord, saves the world.

mai ayhaa aas ayho aaDhaar. ||1|| rahaa-o.

This is my hope; this is my support. ||1||Pause||

mukh nindaa aakhaa din raat.

With my mouth I speak slander, day and night.

par ghar johee neech sanaat.

I spy on the houses of others-I am such a wretched low-life!

kaam kroDh tan vaseh chandaal.

Unfulfilled sexual desire and unresolved anger dwell in my body, like the outcasts who cremate the dead.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||2||

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||2||

faahee surat malookee vays.

I make plans to trap others, although I appear gentle.

ha-o thagvaarhaa thagee days.

I am a robber-I rob the world.

kharaa si-aanaa bahutaa bhaar.

I am very clever-I carry loads of sin.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||3||

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||3||

mai keetaa na jaataa haraamkhor.

I have not appreciated what You have done for me, Lord; I take from others and exploit them.

ha-o ki-aa muhu daysaa dusat chor.

What face shall I show You, Lord? I am a sneak and a thief.

naanak neech kahai beechaar.

Nanak describes the state of the lowly.

Dhaanak roop rahaa kartaar. ||4||29||

I live as a wild hunter, O Creator! ||4||29||

Again this is similar to the above translated Ang. The Guru is clearly making an analogy between people who are acting like dogs. He is even saying that they are barking like dogs.

koorh chhuraa muthaa murdaar.

Falsehood is my dagger; through deception, I eat the carcasses of the dead.

Again Mudaar does not mean meat at all. Mudaar refers to dead people, and how people are literally fighting over one another to get what they think is theirs. They are so consumed with greed and selfishness that they care not for one another, clearly nothing to do with meat eating.

7. Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat. (Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Let us put this last tukh in context with its correct translation:

sireeraag mehlaa 1.

Siree Raag, First Mehl:

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.

Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

par nindaa par mal mukh suDhee agan kroDh chandaal.

Slandering others is putting the filth of others into your own mouth. The fire of anger is the outcaste who burns dead bodies at the crematorium.

ras kas aap salaahnaa ay karam mayray kartaar. ||1||

I am caught in these tastes and flavors, and in self-conceited praise. These are my actions, O my Creator! ||1||

baabaa bolee-ai pat ho-ay.

O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.

ootam say dar ootam kahee-ahi neech karam bahi ro-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.

They alone are good, who are judged good at the Lord's Door. Those with bad karma can only sit and weep. ||1||Pause||

ras su-inaa ras rupaa kaaman ras parmal kee vaas.

The pleasures of gold and silver, the pleasures of women, the pleasure of the fragrance of sandalwood,

ras ghorhay ras sayjaa mandar ras meethaa ras maas.

the pleasure of horses, the pleasure of a soft bed in a palace, the pleasure of sweet treats and the pleasure of hearty meals –

aytay ras sareer kay kai ghat naam nivaas. ||2||

these pleasures of the human body are so numerous; how can the Naam, the Name of the Lord, find its dwelling in the heart? ||2||

jit boli-ai pat paa-ee-ai so boli-aa parvaan.

Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

fikaa bol viguchnaa sun moorakh man ajaan.

Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind!

jo tis bhaaveh say bhalay hor ke kahan vakhaan. ||3||

Those who are pleasing to Him are good. What else is there to be said? ||3||

tin mat tin pat tin Dhan palai jin hirdai rahi-aa samaa-ay.

Wisdom, honor and wealth are in the laps of those whose hearts remain permeated with the Lord.

tin kaa ki-aa salaahnaa avar su-aali-o kaa-ay.

What praise can be offered to them? What other adornments can be bestowed upon them?

naanak nadree baahray raacheh daan na naa-ay. ||4||4||

O Nanak, those who lack the Lord's Glance of Grace cherish neither charity nor the Lord's Name. ||4||4||

Again clearly a mistranslation and mischief making on the part of someone who wishes to convey a certain message.

lab kutaa koorh choohrhaa thag khaaDhaa murdaar.

Greed is a dog; falsehood is a filthy street-sweeper. Cheating is eating a rotting carcass.

Again Murdaar is not Meat but is dead people. The entire Ang is talking about people who fall prey to the 5 thieves, Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar.

MOTIVATIONS BEHIND MISTRANSLATION AND MISREPRESENTATION

There are several reasons behind why these mistranslations and misrepresentations have occurred:

The publishers have a lack of education and do not understand the meaning of words in Gurmukhi and the correct translation into English.

In their eagerness to promote their own brand of Sikhism (Sant, Jatha etc) they have deliberately allowed mistranslation and mistranslation.

Genuine abhorrence of killing animals can be a motivation too (eg those people that believe in Animal Rights), however Sikhism should not be used as a tool to promote such agendas.

Poor knowledge of history and the context in which the Guru’s and Bhaghats wrotes these Angs is a factor too. This can lead to a misrepresentation.

In conclusion one can only say that it is very important that Sikh institution promote a clear and concise programme where only those with a certain amount of knowledge in Sikh History and the Sikh Language, should be officially sanctioned as being translators for the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT – ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.

In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.

in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.

In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1||

In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa.

Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.

in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2||

you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.

Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.

Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.

Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3||

Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog.

Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

avar na doojaa karnai jog.

No one else can do anything at all.

taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.

We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72||

Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||

Reading this Ang one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.

in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.

The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?

muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar. ||1||

When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home. ||1||

har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.

O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.

ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Why do you take pride in trivial matters? ||1||Pause||

jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.

Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.

ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat. ||2||

Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden. ||2||

mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.

Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.

sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh. ||3||

It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions. ||3||

lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.

Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay. ||4||22||92||

O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92||

So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Ang although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.

Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.

and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.

What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.

And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2||

Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

MEAT EATERS, ONLY EAT FOR TASTE OR DO VEGETARIANS AS WELL?

The most absurd argument that has been come across is that meat eaters only eat for taste, and too satisfy their taste buds. It is a selfish desire in other words, based on Greed and Egotism. The basis of this argument falls down with the fact that Vegetarian dishes (particularly on the Indian Subcontinent), are the most varied and most tasty of all dishes. To say that a vegetarian hates every mouthful of eating an Aubergine and Potatoes Curry and a meat eater loves every mouthful of Liver is indeed the weakest of all arguments. In fact page 61 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji states:

jit tan naam na bhaav-ee tit tan ha-umai vaad.

That body which does not appreciate the Naam-that body is infested with egotism and conflict.

gur bin gi-aan na paa-ee-ai bikhi-aa doojaa saad.

Without the Guru, spiritual wisdom is not obtained; other tastes are poison.

bin gun kaam na aavee maa-i-aa feekaa saad. ||6||

Without virtue, nothing is of any use. The taste of Maya is bland and insipid. ||6||

aasaa andar jammi-aa aasaa ras kas khaa-ay.

Through desire, people are cast into the womb and reborn. Through desire, they taste the sweet and sour flavors.

MEAT EATING PROMOTES DEVIANT BEHAVIOUR OR DOES IT?

There is a train of thought amongst certain Sikhs that meat eating promotes cruel, aggressive or lustful behaviour. There have been numerous examples to show that this is simply not true. For example Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, yet he was very cruel. In terms of aggressive behaviour, we have our own Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala, who was a staunch vegetarian, yet very aggressive. The Kuka’s (Namdharia’s), were very violent and aggressive yet were strict vegetarians. As for lustful behaviour, one only has too look at the list of A list celebrities who are vegetarians and note their lustful behaviour.

This argument is a ridiculous one and is not mentioned anywhere within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is true however, many vegetarians do suffer from anaemia (lack of iron), and this causes tiredness (and therefore probably more passive behaviour), however, this is again outside the scope of this essay.

HUKAMNAMA ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY THE 6TH MASTER

Some pro-vegetarian sections of the Sikh following have produced an alleged Hukamnama that states that the Sikhs of the East were not to go near meat. Unfortunately, the sources that have produced this Hukamnama, have not been able to back it up with any evidence of its genuineness, from any Sikh scholars of note. There have been statements to the effect that Ganda Singh found this document and indeed published it (Two collections of Hukamnamas are available in print form, one edited by Dr. Ganda Singh published in 1968 by Punjabi University and the S.G.P.C), but this has not been verified by any of his contemporaries or any other Sikh scholars..

Historical evidence, in fact contradicts what Guru Hargobind ji was actually like. He was an avid hunter and warrior. Again this fact some have tried to dismiss as Guruji giving Mukhti to animals souls. This, however, contradicts the Guru’s own philosophy which clearly states that only God is capable of granting such things.

Infact Bhai Gudas in his Vars States:

"Just as one has to tie pail's neck while taking out water, Just as to get 'Mani', snake is to be killed; Just as to get Kasturi from deer's neck, deer is to be killed; Just as to get oil, oil seeds are to be crushed; To get kernel, pomegranate is to be broken; Similarly to correct senseless people, sword has to be taken up." (Bhai Gurdas, Var-34, pauri 13)

In fact such a hukamna would indeed contradict the one Guru Gobind Singh ji sent to his Sikhs in Kabul (ADVANCED STUDIES IN SIKHISM by Jasbir Singh and Harbans Singh.):

"Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga

Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai

Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena

Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;

Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna

SARB LOH da kara hath rakhna

Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna

Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha

Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana

Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe

Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso

Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna

Guru kee rahat rakhnee

Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi

Jeth 26, Samat 1756

(To the entire sangat at Kabul.

The Guru will protect the Sangat,

I am pleased with you all.

You should take baptism by the sword, from the Five Beloveds.

Keep your hair uncut for this is a seal of the Guru,

Accept the use of shorts and a sword.

Always wear IRON KARA on your wrist,

Keep your hair clean and comb it twice a day.

Do not eat Halal (Kosher) meat,

Do not use tobacco in any form,

Have no connection with those who kill their daughters

Or permit the cutting of their children's hair.

Do not associate with Meenas, Massands and Ram-raiyas (anti-Sikh cults)

Recite the Guru's hymns

Meditate on "The Name of our Wonderful Lord",

Follow the Sikh code of discipline

I give the entire sangat my blessing)

Signature of 10th Guru

Jeth 26, 1756 Bikrami (23rd May 1699 A.D)

As we know, there is no contradiction in the Guru’s message.

It should be noted also that there are a number of Hukamnama’s that have been found that also purport Sikhs to adopt Brahmanical religious tenets.

WHAT ARE THE VIEWS OF PROMINENT SIKH SCHOLARS ON THIS ISSUE?

Taken from www.sikhs.org:

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars

by Sandeep Singh Brar

Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi

Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments - on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating - as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste.

Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar

The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi

Commenting on meat being served in the langar during the time of Guru Angad: However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.

Philosophy of Sikhism by Gyani Sher Singh (Ph.D), Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee. Amritsar

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

A Popular Dictionary of Sikhism, W.Owen Cole and Piara Singh Sambhi, England

The Gurus were loath to pronounce upon such matters as the eating of meat or ways of disposing of the dead because undue emphasis on them could detract from the main thrust of their message which had to do with spiritual liberation. However, Guru Nanak did reject by implication the practice of vegetarianism related to ideas of pollution when he said, 'All food is pure; for God has provided it for our sustenance' (AG 472). Many Sikhs are vegetarian and meat should never be served at langar. Those who do eat meat are unlikely to include beef in their diet, at least in India, because of their cultural proximity to Hindus.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction by Dr. H.S. Singha and Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

Real Sikhism by Surinder Singh Kohli, Harman Publishing, New Delhi

A close study of the above-mentioned hymns of Guru Nanak Dev clarifies the Sikh standpoint regarding meat-eating. The Guru has not fallen into the controversy of eating or not eating animal food. He has ridiculed the religious priests for raising their voice in favour of vegetarianism. He called them hypocrites and totally blind to the realities of life. They are unwise and thoughtless persons, who do not go into the root of the matter. According to him, the water is the source of all life whether vegetable or animal. Guru Nanak Dev said. "None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472). Thus there is life in vegetation and life in all types of creatures.

Introduction to Sikhism by Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani, Hemkunt Press, Delhi

The Gurus neither advocate meat nor banned its use. They left it to the choice of the individual. There are passages against meat, in the Adi Granth. Guru Gobind Singh however prohibited for the Khalsa the use of Halal or Kutha meat prepared in the Muslim ritualistic way.

Introduction to Sikhism by G.S. Sidhu, Shromini Sikh Sangat, Toronto

There are no restrictions for the Sikhs regarding food, except that the Sikhs are forbidden to eat meat prepared as a ritual slaughter. The Sikhs are asked to abstain from intoxicants.

The Sikh Faith by Gurbakhsh Singh, Canadian Sikh Study and Teaching Society, Vancouver

According to the Maryada booklet 'Kutha', the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual, is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is silent. From the prohibition of the Kutha meat, it is rightly presumed that non-Kutha meat is not prohibited for the Sikhs. Beef is prohibited to the Hindus and pork to the Muslims. Jews and Christians have their own taboos. They do not eat certain kinds of meat on certain days. Sikhs have no such instructions. If one thinks he needs to eat meat, it does not matter which meat it is, beef, poultry, fish, etc., or which day it is. One should, however, be careful not to eat any meat harmful for his health. Gurbani's instructions on this topic are very clear. "Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289) The Brahmanical thought that a religious person should be a vegetarian is of recent origin. Earlier, Brahmans had been eating beef and horse meat. In conclusion, it is wrong to say that any person who eats meat (of course Kutha, because of the Muslim rituals is prohibited) loses his membership of the Khalsa and becomes an apostate.

Scientific Interpretation of Gurbani, Paper by Dr. Devinder Singh Chahal

The above discussion leads us to the conclusion that the Sikh Gurus made people aware of the fact that it is very difficult to distinguish between a plant and an animal, therefore, it is difficult to distinguish between a vegetarian and a non-vegetarian diets and there is no sin of eating food originating from plants or animals.

Mini Encyclopaedia of Sikhism by H.S. Singha, Hemkunt Press, Delhi.

The practice of the Gurus is uncertain. Guru Nanak seems to have eaten venison or goat, depending upon different janamsakhi versions of a meal which he cooked at Kurukshetra which evoked the criticism of Brahmins. Guru Amardas ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living. Guru Gobind Singh also permitted the eating of meat but he prescribed that it should be Jhatka meat and not Halal meat that is jagged in the Muslim fashion.

THE KUTTHA MEAT ARGUMENT – KUTTHA MEANS ALL MEAT OR DOES IT?

What is Kuttha meat?

Punjabi-English Dictionary, Punjabi University, Dept. of Punjabi Lexicography, Published Dec. 1994. "Kuttha: meat of animal or fowl slaughtered slowly as prescribed by Islamic law."

Punjabi English Dictionary, Singh Bros., Amritsar "Kuttha: Tortured, killed according to Mohammedan law."

In the Rehit Marayada (http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html), Section Six, it states:

The undermentioned four transgressions (tabooed practices) must be avoided

1. Dishonouring the hair;

2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way(Kutha);

3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;

4. Using tobacco.

There have been some quarters who have been at pains to create confusion over the word Kuttha. There is no confusion over this word, and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is proof of this.

In the following Ang Guru Nanak condemns Brahmins, who serve their Muslim rulers stating they are acting like pseudo-Muslims. In this Ang there is a line which clearly refers to Kuttha as meat which has had Muslim prayers read over it. Kuttha, however, can meat any meat that is killed in a ritualistic manner.

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

maanas khaanay karahi nivaaj.

The man-eaters say their prayers.

chhuree vagaa-in tin gal taag.

Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.

tin ghar barahman pooreh naad.

In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.

unHaa bhe aavahi o-ee saad.

They too have the same taste.

koorhee raas koorhaa vaapaar.

False is their capital, and false is their trade.

koorh bol karahi aahaar.

Speaking falsehood, they take their food.

saram Dharam kaa dayraa door.

The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.

naanak koorh rahi-aa bharpoor.

O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.

mathai tikaa tayrh Dhotee kakhaa-ee.

The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;

hath chhuree jagat kaasaa-ee.

in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!

neel vastar pahir hoveh parvaan.

Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.

malaychh Dhaan lay poojeh puraan.

Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.

abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.

They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

cha-ukay upar kisai na jaanaa.

but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.

day kai cha-ukaa kadhee kaar.

They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.

upar aa-ay baithay koorhi-aar.

The false come and sit within them.

mat bhitai vay mat bhitai.

They cry out, "Do not touch our food,

ih ann asaadaa fitai.

this food of ours will be polluted!

tan fitai fayrh karayn.

But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.

man joothai chulee bharayn.

With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.

kaho naanak sach Dhi-aa-ee-ai.

Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.

such hovai taa sach paa-ee-ai. ||2||

If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||

Hence, it is clear that Kutha does not mean all meat at all, it means specifically Halal Meat, but in the wider context it can mean meat that is ritually slaughtered.

AN AMRIT-DHARI DOEAS NOT EAT MEAT OR DOES HE?

This clearly a falicy, since the rules that guide and Amritdhari are from the Rehit-Marayada, which places no taboo on meat eating.

EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS OF EUROPEAN TRAVELLERS OF SIKH DIET DURING THE 18TH AND 19TH CENTURY

There are a number of eyewitness accounts from European travellers as to t the eating habits of Sikhs. Although there is no prohibition on Sikhs for eating beef, it is clear that Sikhs as a mark of respect for their Hindu neighbours did not partake in eating beef:

John Griffiths writes in February 17th 1794

The Seiks receive Proselytes of almost every Cast, a point in which they differ most materially from the Hindoos. To initiate Mohammedans into their mysteries, they prepare a Dish of Hogs legs, which the Converts are obliged to partake of, previous to admission………………..They are not prohibited the use of Animal food of any kind, excepting Beef, which they are rigidly scrupulous in abstaining from.

William Francklin in his writing about Mr George Thomas 1805 writes

The seiks are remarkably fond of the flesh of the jungle hog, which they kill in chase: this food is allowable by their law. They likewise eat of mutton and fish; but these being unlawful the Brahmins will not partake, leaving those who chose to transgress their institutes to answer for themselves.

It is clear from the above that there is a clear distinction between Sikhs (meat eaters), and those who chose to follow Brahmanical practices (Vegetarians), however there appears to be no dispute over this issue as people are allowed to decide for themselves.

The following is an extract from an officer in the Bengal Army and is taken from the Asiatic Annual Register 1809:

Now become a Singh, he is a heterodox, and distinct from the Hindoos by whom he is considered an apostate. He is not restricted in his diet, but is allowed, by the tenets of his new religion, to devour whatever food his appetite may prompt, excepting beef.

Clearly, this gives us an idea that even independent observers of Sikhs who saw their eating habits. These Sikhs were around some 100 years after the demise of the last physical Sikh Guru and represented hardcore Sikh philosophy at that time.

WHY MEAT IS NOT SERVED IN LANGAR

Taken from www.sikhs.org

The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

WHY JHATKA MEAT?

Extract take from www.sikhs.org

What is Jhatka Meat and Why?

Jhatka meat is meat in which the animal has been killed quickly without suffering or religious ritual.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.

THE FINAL AUTHORITY

Guru Nanak Devji tackled this entire issue head on and rubbished the claims of so called spiritual people who thought themselves more pious and religious simply because they did not eat meat.

Page 1289 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.

What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.

It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.

Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.

They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.

O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.

They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.

They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.

This tukh specifically deals with the arguments that rage today about spirituality and meat eating. The purpose of this essay, stated in the beginning is not to look at meat eating’s pro’s and con’s in terms of the wider biological debate, but to look at I terms of Sikhism and spirituality. As Sikh, one should be concerned with getting into the triviality of such worthless debates and certainly one should not mistranslate, or misrepresent the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to back up a certain point of view.

AUTHORS THOUGHTS

In the process of researching this paper we have both felt that the entire issue surrounding is that of a “smokescreenâ€. We both strongly felt that it is an issue that has come to a head and pushed through by external forces in order to divide the Panth. There have always been vegetarian Sikhs, and there have always been Meat eating Sikhs and the two groups have happily sat together and consumed a mutually acceptable Vegetarian Langar side by side. So why in the 20th and 21st Century has this issue caused so much debate and controversy?

This maybe traced back to the Times of the British Raj and encouragement of recruitment of Sikhs into the British Army. Many new converts to Sikhism came into the fold, many of whom still practiced Hindu Vaishnav practices of strict vegetarianism.

This need to cause division amongst Sikhs may even be traced earlier. In ‘Mobad’ Dabistan-I Mazahib 1645-46, the author states:

Many person became his disciples. Nanak believed in the Oneness of God and in the way that it is asserted in Muhammadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he had [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals. It was after his time that meat-eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was on of his lineal succesors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying “This is not in accordance with Nanak’s wishesâ€. Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate eat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Gurus] followers adopted his practice.

Now clearly we know the message of the Guru’s was uniform. It was not that they contradicted each other on issues such as meat eating. If some of this authors writings are to be believed as factual, then one can only conclude that some of the Guru’s were indeed vegetarian and some meat eaters, but it was not an issue that mattered to them or which they attached importance to. The author in this instance has liberally applied his own thoughts in order to show a contradiction amongst the Sikh Guru’s teaching and possibly a mean to exploit division. There was no contradiction in Sikh thought from the First Master to the Last.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Thanks for the comments....any constructive comments would be welcomed.

Thanks

PS other issues to be tackled are

- Castiism/Racism

- Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh Hankaar.....interpretation and application

- Truth Freedom, Justice - Living the The Sikh Way

Link to post
Share on other sites

My only critism is that your analysis of the meat vegi issue is based primarly on textual references, (which are obviously very important as they are the most academically valuable) however, their importance in sikhism has alot to do with the recent revival of santhia and schools of Bani recitation and quatation.

The average sikh and majority of sikhism is based on practices which are part of the culture of the people, the religion itself is a living moving thing. So another approach regarding the meat issue would be to look at influences other then text or gurbani based. As it is important to also note that majority of sikh generations have been practicing a form of village sikhism, which I think many academic papers ignore.

But thats not really as much a crit as it is a suggestion at making your life harder :P

Anyhoooo there is no way that everything can be included in one article so .. yeh.. nm

Link to post
Share on other sites

My only critism is that your analysis of the meat vegi issue is based primarly on textual references, (which are obviously very important as they are the most academically valuable) however, their importance in sikhism has alot to do with the recent revival of santhia and schools of Bani recitation and quatation.

The average sikh and majority of sikhism is based on practices which are part of the culture of the people, the religion itself is a living moving thing. So another approach regarding the meat issue would be to look at influences other then text or gurbani based. As it is important to also note that majority of sikh generations have been practicing a form of village sikhism, which I think many academic papers ignore.

But thats not really as much a crit as it is a suggestion at making your life harder :P

Anyhoooo there is no way that everything can be included in one article so .. yeh.. nm

The culture one is a tough one.

I think I have always tried to argue that Punjabiat and Sikhism are two different things. The former is full of superstition and very narrow minded in some respects. Sikhi however is Universal and very enlightened.

Let me give you an example....Gurpreet Bhatti and her playy Behzti totally missed the point.........her criticism hit the wrong target ..........Sikhism.....what she was actually trying to target was conservative Punjabi behaviour n (she didn't even realise that). The reason for this being she was a poor writer and had ZERO (or a Punjabiat) understanding of Sikhism........she could not see the wood for the tree's. Do you see where I am coming from?

Link to post
Share on other sites

nice essay.

but if you look at it logically, dont you think that God will punish you for killing animals in order to eat them?

i talked to an aunti, she said that the hukamnama from Guru Govind Singh Maharaj was that we arent allowed to eat meat, and not only "halal meat"...

she says that it is those wicked shcholars that came up after 1984 that has been saying this in order to divide us bla bla...

Link to post
Share on other sites

nice essay.

but if you look at it logically, dont you think that God will punish you for killing animals in order to eat them?

i talked to an aunti, she said that the hukamnama from Guru Govind Singh Maharaj was that we arent allowed to eat meat, and not only "halal meat"...

she says that it is those wicked shcholars that came up after 1984 that has been saying this in order to divide us bla bla...

Hi Amardeep,

we are already having this converstaion at:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-si....html#post25579

The Hukamnama you speak of doesn't exist.

The issue about punishement is non-issue...in the extract taken from the essay:

THE 84 MILLION INCARNATION ARGUMENT – ANIMAL, VEGETABLE, MINERAL.

The other argument that has been made over this issue is that there is some sort of hierarchy of incarnations within Sikhism of incarnations. Life goes through many incarnations (up to 84 million) before becoming human. In other words, life takes the form of incarnation in plant form, then animal, and then human. The idea being that animal form spiritually is closer to man. Biologically this maybe true, however, spiritually within Sikhism, this could not be further from the truth.

On page 176 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, the following is written:

ga-orhee gu-aarayree mehlaa 5.

Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:

ka-ee janam bha-ay keet patangaa.

In so many incarnations, you were a worm and an insect;

ka-ee janam gaj meen kurangaa.

in so many incarnations, you were an elephant, a fish and a deer.

ka-ee janam pankhee sarap ho-i-o.

In so many incarnations, you were a bird and a snake.

ka-ee janam haivar barikh jo-i-o. ||1||

In so many incarnations, you were yoked as an ox and a horse. ||1||

mil jagdees milan kee baree-aa.

Meet the Lord of the Universe - now is the time to meet Him.

chirankaal ih dayh sanjaree-aa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

After so very long, this human body was fashioned for you. ||1||Pause||

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.

in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

lakh cha-oraaseeh jon bharmaa-i-aa. ||2||

you wandered through 8.4 million incarnations. ||2||

saaDhsang bha-i-o janam paraapat.

Through the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, you obtained this human life.

kar sayvaa bhaj har har gurmat.

Do seva - selfless service; follow the Guru's Teachings, and vibrate the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ti-aag maan jhooth abhimaan.

Abandon pride, falsehood and arrogance.

jeevat mareh dargeh parvaan. ||3||

Remain dead while yet alive, and you shall be welcomed in the Court of the Lord. ||3||

jo kichh ho-aa so tujh tay hog.

Whatever has been, and whatever shall be, comes from You, Lord.

avar na doojaa karnai jog.

No one else can do anything at all.

taa milee-ai jaa laihi milaa-ay.

We are united with You, when You unite us with Yourself.

kaho naanak har har gun gaa-ay. ||4||3||72||

Says Nanak, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, Har, Har. ||4||3||72||

Reading this Ang one can clearly see that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not attach any particular order to how life is incarnated. Infact it states:

ka-ee janam sail gir kari-aa.

In so many incarnations, you were rocks and mountains;

ka-ee janam garabh hir khari-aa.

in so many incarnations, you were aborted in the womb;

ka-ee janam saakh kar upaa-i-aa.

in so many incarnations, you developed branches and leaves;

If you were to apply the logic of those that claim spiritually animal life is closer to human, then according to this a rock then becomes an aborted human foetus, then becomes a plant! It is only after this one becomes human. Surely then a plant is a closer form of life to human?

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji only proclaims one life form as being so precious. On page 50 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it states:

sireeraag mehlaa 5 ghar 2.

Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

go-il aa-i-aa go-ilee ki-aa tis damf pasaar.

The herdsman comes to the pasture lands-what good are his ostentatious displays here?

muhlat punnee chalnaa tooN sampal ghar baar. ||1||

When your allotted time is up, you must go. Take care of your real hearth and home. ||1||

har gun gaa-o manaa satgur sayv pi-aar.

O mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and serve the True Guru with love.

ki-aa thorh-rhee baat gumaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Why do you take pride in trivial matters? ||1||Pause||

jaisay rain paraahunay uth chalsahi parbhaat.

Like an overnight guest, you shall arise and depart in the morning.

ki-aa tooN rataa girsat si-o sabh fulaa kee baagaat. ||2||

Why are you so attached to your household? It is all like flowers in the garden. ||2||

mayree mayree ki-aa karahi jin dee-aa so parabh lorh.

Why do you say, "Mine, mine?" Look to God, who has given it to you.

sarpar uthee chalnaa chhad jaasee lakh karorh. ||3||

It is certain that you must arise and depart, and leave behind your hundreds of thousands and millions. ||3||

lakh cha-oraaseeh bharmati-aa dulabh janam paa-i-o-ay.

Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life.

naanak naam samaal tooN so din nayrhaa aa-i-o-ay. ||4||22||92||

O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92||

So clearly, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sees plants, animals, and minerals, on one level in terms of life, and then human form on another. To take the life of a plant is the same as an animal in terms of spirituality. The following Ang although a metaphor for how people who speak the truth are treated, clearly shows the mind of the Guru’s when seeing life in all its form, be it plant, mineral or animal:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.

Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.

and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.

What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.

And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2||

Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

The folly of the argument that spiritually one is committing a bigger sin when killing an animal than a plant is a foolish one. The biological argument is a different one and is not tackled within the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, but that in itself shows, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is a personal one and has nothing to do with the Sikh religion.

This issue has come to the forefront of recent years, but all the evidence coallated clearly shows that this issue never divided the Sikh Paanth before. Jhatka eating Sikhs and Vegetarians Sikh, fought together, sat together, ate together and even died together.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Randip Singh, as i replied to your thread on sikhsangat, i ll do the same here, also stay tuned i ll answer your question you asked me on sikhsangat regarding avastha.

Here is what i have to say in this topic:

Eating meat or not eating meat all depends on your avastha, it's defaniately not black and white issue as some premis claim to be.

I don't like to nit pick specific actions taken by mahapursh and start presenting it as maryada. I usually post sakhiya's of mahapursh which has all do with spiritual expereinces or some times post sakhiya's of their sipahi hood to get doubts out of all people mind.

Here is the sakhi:

This sakhi was told by a old nihang singh who was in nihang baba chet singh ji's time. It's between sant baba attar singh ji mustanewaley and sant baba chet singh ji budda dal.Sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywale went to sant baba chet singh ji budda dal. Baba Chet Singh ji ate meat with full maryada (full ishana of oneself, recitation of sri akaal ustat or chandi di var). Baba Chet Singh Ji was sitting on a manja just about to eat meat when sant baba attar singh ji arrived. He did not felt right to eat Meat alone so he offered some to Sant baba attar singh ji mustaneywaley. Sant baba attar singh ji being veggie accepted this notion and ate it by reciting this shabad: Gurparsad Bhram Ka Nash ||

There were few chelas of baba attar singh ji mustaneywale who didn't understand this katuak of mahapursh and were shocked about this event and even to level to doubt their own mahapursh acts, but later they were given updesh that yes by eating meat it's somewhat effects person's spirituality but at the same time there are enough exceptional cases out there where eating meat does not effect their avasta. Their Avastha is sam(stable).

My only intention to present baba attar singh ji sakhi with baba chet singh ji budda dal sakhi is to challenge common mindset sikh these days have- which is black and white sikhi. do and do not and judge everyone according to that. What they don't get is, there is always exceptional cases or grey area. Take meat issue for example, you will get people who are soo binded with meat issue either pro or against that they will judge other person or group only by that factor not according to avastha. Mahapursh who are fully veggie they don't do that, they judge others by avastha. I also try to follow same type of foot steps. I am veggie myself also acknowledge that meat does affect's learner(jagiaso sikh) spirituality- especially thoughts. But I also acknowledge that once you are in certain stage then eating meat or not eating meat does not effect's anything.Here is another one- Bhai Vir Singh Ji he himself mentioned in his book that when he was ill he had to eat meat for health reasons. will someone hold that against him and consider that as downfall in his bhagti? don't know.. depends on person's mindset if person is out of black and white sikhi then probably not, will not matter since we are not JAINS either.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

As long as vegetarianism remains a personal preference there is absolutely no problem with it in Sikhi. In fact for certain sadhanas or prolonged spiritual practices such as a 40 day chilla etc... it is generally recommended to abstain from meat. Yet jhatka remains a Khalsa tradition and imposing vegetarianism as the absolute norm is nothing but pure heresy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Randip Singh, as i replied to your thread on sikhsangat, i ll do the same here, also stay tuned i ll answer your question you asked me on sikhsangat regarding avastha.

Here is what i have to say in this topic:

Thanks for your reply.

I think the meat thing can be apllied to anything. I think meat is often connected to Lobh.......however, I have observed if a person os greedy then they are greedy.....it is that they must control.

The article does not prescribe that one diet is for all (as you have stated).....all it says is don't be black and white in your judgement (as you have said).............Sikhi lets you make informed decisions.

I have met people who are obseesed with eating meat....I have also met people who are obsessed with vegetarians..........both will lead to a narrow mind set and lack of spiritual progress.

I'll give you an example.........I used to powerlift.........I have a very good idea of what I need to eat in order to optomise my performance (a balance...call it Avastha)........in my case I eat meat and also plenty of fruit and vegetables. Now I know a vegetarian will not recieve the full amount of Amino chains as me because of their diet (especially if they don't eat eggs)..........so I recommend them to supplement to at least try and get to the same performance level as me. Now some people are so blind they think that eating excess of meat their performance will get better (definitely not true).....others think that their vegetarian diet is so perfect that their will be some miraculous change to enhance their physical strength (not true). Both are unbalanced mentally and physically.

Ok Avastha is much more than this...but this is the kind of division this issue causes, where neither side is willing to listen to common sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites

what about the verses in SGGS that tells us to treat animals well..is killing animals and eating them considered as "treating them well"???

What verse and where.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji tells us to respect life in all its form, animal, plant, mineral.

We do not shirk from taking a Plants life....and Bani says the Joon of a Plant is the same as an animal......just something to think about.

Bani talked about Sustainability many years ago..........a concept we are only understanding now.

.....and Amarpal keep the discussion in one form mate...........I have presented evidence that Kabir was in all respects historically talking about the wanton destruction by Timur..........he invaded India at the time of Kabir...sacked Delhi (killing 100, 000 Hindu's...sparing the Muslims).......sacked Benares killing all the Hindu's.................he saw this holocast occur........so I get a good idea of why Kabir was such a pacifist.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good paper makes you think .

I'm no one to disagree with the sri guru granth sahib , but have just a few thoughts ( may be irrelevant ones but here goes) , don't you think that in the times of the GURUS , hunting animals for food was a just cause for them to survive , whereas we in this day and age have a choice and can clearly see if you attempt to kill an animal , the animal will run away , it will want to survive and will not willing give up its life fro consumption whereas vegetation doesn't have the choice , we decide .

I also think whether meat being jhatka / kutha the end result is killing the animal .

Probably a stupid question , is jhatka apply to vegetation ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good paper makes you think .

I'm no one to disagree with the sri guru granth sahib , but have just a few thoughts ( may be irrelevant ones but here goes) , don't you think that in the times of the GURUS , hunting animals for food was a just cause for them to survive , whereas we in this day and age have a choice and can clearly see if you attempt to kill an animal , the animal will run away , it will want to survive and will not willing give up its life fro consumption whereas vegetation doesn't have the choice , we decide .

I also think whether meat being jhatka / kutha the end result is killing the animal .

Probably a stupid question , is jhatka apply to vegetation ?

Good question.

A friend of mine brought to my attention that because plants don't run away, what they will do is try and poison you to prevent ingestion. Some beans etc.

However, if you look at the Chaurasi Lakh Joon argument which does not differentiate between mineral, plant and animal then it is really left to personal empathy.

Some people have empathy with animals.............some don't....some with certain animals (cat , dog)........ Me myslel, am a plant lover and play music to my plants and even talk to them. Believe it or not they grow less when I ignore them. :)

This essay is not concerned with the biological or even some moral question about this issue, but the Sikh view..........and the conclusion really is that is a personal thing.

Going back to Jhatka and Plants....does it apply.....I suppose again its an individual thing. we don't see plants run away or squeel (well not in a manner we can percieve)...........in many ways I suppose the plant life is helpless.....:(

The Sri Guru Grath Sahib ji even describes the suffering of a Sugar Cane Plant as a Metaphor for human suffering:

Page 143 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

mehlaa 1.

First Mehl:

vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.

Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.

and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.

What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.

And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay. ||2||

Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

It shows the perseptiveness of the Guru who saw life in all things around him.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you believe that , when you start to understand and act on the word of the Gurus from the sri guru granth sahib ji and become more engrossed in bani , that a persons diet will chaNGE ACCORDINGLY ?

if so will :-

Chaurasi Lakh Joon argument which does not differentiate between mineral, plant and animal then it is really left to personal empathy.

food be Bani , hence not physical but more mental and spiritual ?

Can a person survive physically if this is the case ?

( I know this the extreme case just interested of your thoughts / Banis point of view)

Just going off topic a bit apologies for this , but you come across as being very knowledgeable in sikhi , hence want to ask the following question

I was speaking to an atheist , topic was does god exist ,he was saying no one has seen god , if god exists why is there so much misery in the world

why so much killings, earthquakes / natural disasters

If god existed , surely he can look after everyone and control our behaviour so we get along with each other , etc.. ( basically on the lines of if god exists , why doesn't god stop the bad things )

Due to lack of knowledge i couldn't answer that question and was basically stumped. Do you know what the Bani tells us re this isuue?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you believe that , when you start to understand and act on the word of the Gurus from the sri guru granth sahib ji and become more engrossed in bani , that a persons diet will chaNGE ACCORDINGLY ?

if so will :-

I am far from knowledgeable. Who you should speak to are people like Sanddep Singh Bajwa (sikh-history.com), Bikram Singh, Lion King, Tej Kaur etc.....they are far more sensible than me.

I hink the God question was addressed in another post with a stroy.

"Man goes to barbers....Barber says there is no God cos of pverty, disasters etc etce. Man goes out of Barbers and see's a man with long hair, unshaven etc. He goes back into Barbers and says there are no Barbers cos there are unshaven long haired people. Barber says, well there are Barbers because I am here, and that long haired bearded fellow chose not to come to me or find out where I am. Man says, that is why bad things happen....people generally have not tried to find God."

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't you think if you pray and meditate on a regular basis and act on the gurrus words , it will have an impact on your thoughts , other life forms etc.. and that like eating flesh means eating a living moving animal and would slowly move you away from this .

Like we pray/ mediate to ged rid of the 5 thieves ,( kam,krodh.lobh.moh,ankar) we all have them , some more then others the ultimate goal is to get rid of these , don't you think the same principal apply to our diet ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gurfateh

Dear DSG,

do you not have sense of guilt when you kill those livng beings which can not even run or make noise to defend themselves ie Vegitables.

till we have concept our doiong something,this our will let us have ego and we will behold ourslef as doer.We will be reborn.

sin and good things or Karmic priclple of deeds has nothing to do with Gurmat as akal only does everyhitng.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't you think if you pray and meditate on a regular basis and act on the gurrus words , it will have an impact on your thoughts , other life forms etc.. and that like eating flesh means eating a living moving animal and would slowly move you away from this .

Like we pray/ mediate to ged rid of the 5 thieves ,( kam,krodh.lobh.moh,ankar) we all have them , some more then others the ultimate goal is to get rid of these , don't you think the same principal apply to our diet ?

I think Vijaydeep Singh has stated whatt I would say.

Note the Tukh I posted....they were so perceptive then that they knew plants were living creature....we can be reincarnated as plants....according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it describes one life as a rock, the next as an aborted baby in the womb and then a plant and then a human. There is no particular order for incarnation, but Guruji says we are blessed when we reach human form. The Guru's knew plants breathed, reproduced, had blood (sap), had a basic nervous system which uses electrical impulses..........they could see life at the atomic and universal level.

Meat eating is not like the 5 vices.....but attchment or greed is. So attachment or greed with meat eating would be a vice....but then again attachement or greed to vegetables would be the same.

Regards.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good points

do you not have sense of guilt when you kill those livng beings which can not even run or make noise to defend themselves ie Vegitables

Yes exactly my point , they can't defend them selves or make a noise , so how would we know / or have a sense of guilt that our actions are causing harm, whereas apply the same to an animal , it will defintely try to defend it self and make a noise ( hey don't kill me man or something ) which surely tells us don't kill it unless we are being attacked and are defending ourselves.

what i am trying to ascertain is that , when certain level of praying and meditation is reached , the " less of" becomes zero in terms of eating flesh

Also do you think for example , if you slaugtered and animal , cooked it /fried it or whetever then ate it , and after that did meditation/prayers

would be o.k ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Gurfateh

Bro,

Das would like to add over here that do not think that those who do meditations or move for higher stage are nessary veggis.

We have many Sufis or Shias and in the concpet of Haqqah and Fanaha.

likewise when we have Sanjankirya.org online we will see that non veg eaters also do meditate.

In our Nirmalas in history there have been Mahapurush who started to kill animal after reaching high avastha.

High Avthsa is that our mind dies so spirit is over and only soul ie Akal ie there(all of these are realtive terms and absolute is Akal).

So what6 about trecnhliesing or stunning the animal before killing as mcdolands do,then they are killed while they are in vegtable state?

Dr J C Basu made a machine,in which it was tested that respiration(oxygen in and carbon di oxide out) rate of Plant incresed when ever danger came near to it.It may not have nerus system but enzyems work over there.

Das has killed the animals and did ot felt any diferrance betweeen say choping chicken or say cutiing reddish.In fact das knows an example that during Id Ul Azah,when his god grandfather(not real one but just deemed)who is kureshi Muslim,He had a lamb and told lamb that you are gooing to be sacrifed to Khuda(Allah),Lamb lied dowen.

so Bro/sis,in case Plant does not react and animal reacts,that does not make any sense that animal needs to be saved and plant needs not because plant may react which we mmay not notice,and while killing animal with humane way animal till last will not know that it going to be killed.

As you still are there with sense of guit in your actions,so that needs to be upgraded to higher state or Avstha,where Akal self in you kills animal librates the spirit and killer is same and killed is same.

There is verse in Guru granth Sahib in Siri Rag.

Akal is Fisherman,Akal is angel and Akal is Fish.

So body is mere one form and body of animal killed is another form and action alsoare realtivie.We are no one to show compassoin.

Try to kill goat or say pig with Jhatka methood and you will uniderstand that in our case animal does not get to pain or time to think as we severe the spine from brain.In west only after painkiller blodd is drained out.

Lastly by your point is it OK to beat unconsious man as that man does not react and not OK to beat concious man?

Say if we see compation,one one side we have man we are to kill with five senses and muscles OK so can resists the killing but think of the man with 5 senses OK but mucles prarlysesed so he may see and feel daeth but will not resists,is not that more pityfull for Man in vegitable state tom be killed and is not that more cowardly for the killer?

Das is aware that we have andaj,Jeraj,Setaj and Utbhuj as mentiooned in Guru Gurbani but reperesting whole creation of life as one,do we have right to fool ourselves by bringing in Duja bhav to difernetiaites about them?

anyway Das aprriciate you sense of compassion but we are no one to do compassion,if we have to anything then we will be reborn.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Javanmard

fools who wrangle over flesh, lions downgraded to the level of chickens, the Human Being God's most beloved creation downgraded to the level of an animal who refuses his divine role, thinking of himself as just another animal...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...