Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh

[Only five]

Why the heck are people getting into science??? We as Sikhs should only be looking to what the Guru's are teaching.

Science is being present to take this off track and find a way to answer these questions in deception.

That's why i said I am looking for definite answers and not theories.

Your right only Guru's teachings should be looked at.

But what can you do when others are trying to find anyway to get out of a jam.

[Kaljug]

You got some anger issues man.

Er, I'm not the one who is talking about slapping people in the face becauise they are not a member of the Bhai Sahib Bhai Ranshir Singh personality cult.

All of a sudden now it's a mission, but when Randip Singh and his team spread his article allover the net you didn't come out throwing fist of "mission of God". It's visible your not neutral on this topic like Randip Singh. Now Randip Singh's article has been shown in it's true colors your having pms. Thank Mr. Nisher for writing the second article about meat and jhatka because that's where i found this Randip characters mistakes. Seriously thank Mr.Nisher for it. Now the vail of this illusionist article of Randip has been lifted.

Yes, you are on a mission because vegetarianism has never been a core teaching of Sikhi. Randip Singh's article was written in response to idiots like you who ignore Sikh history and attempt to pass off your vaishnav vegetarianism as anything to do with Sikhi. The fact that you seem to believe that you are on some mission is evident from your questioning something that has been a part of Singh lifestyle since the creation of the Khalsa and before and by your use of expressions common to religious fanatics (veil of illusionist what?).

I find it pretty amusing that you are accusing me of aggression and not being neutral when it is you who are here trying to pass off your personal eating habits as something that has anything whatsover to do with Sikhi as a whole.

Your passive-aggressive insults accusing people of having PMS and saying anything because they crave the taste of flesh is also pretty hlarious, especially since I'm pretty sure your onetrack fanatical bent of mind does not permit you to see how you are obsessed with such trivia as what is on someone else's dinner plate.

Where is the aggression. The aggression is coming from you because you don't like what's happening. I presented a view, which turned out to show the wrong doing in the article "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh". And I take it you were satisfied with that article because it was in your favor. Now all of a sudden there are holes in the article and your MAD, really MAD. Too bad Singh.

Nope, see above. It is madness to concern yourself what others chose to eat.

Did I quote Gurbani. No the Gurbani I quoted was the one meat eaters justified animals and plants feel pain and are equal on the food line. ONly thing i did was point out the mistakes they made and put holes in an article that once was regarded as truth. Sorry to burst your bubble Singh, but it was going to happen sooner or later.

See your post above with the panktis. The only thing that will happen if you vegetarians chose to attempt to divide the Panth based on diet is that you will lose, and like the Bandai Singh who believed Sikhs should be vegetarians, you will be forced to consume what you most detest for attempting such aggression against the will of the Khalsa Panth.

Ate meat how and when and for what reason. Again this is off topic. Start a new topic on what Chardikala Singhs ate.

Chardikala Singhs ate whatever they wanted or was available because they had better things to concern themselves with than dietary concerns.

And yes, the hamburger was tasty, and raagmala is Gurbani.

K.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Kaljug

[Kaljug]

Why the heck are people getting into science??? We as Sikhs should only be looking to what the Guru's are teaching.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Because science often illuminates and, unlike the poster above believes, is never off-topic.

K.

[Only five]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Because science often illuminates and, unlike the poster above believes, is never off-topic.

K.

Then what light has it brought on this discussion. It hasn't done anything Singh. You said plants don't feel pain by using science and i came back and said plants do feel pain using science. Back at square one

Singh, I want Randip Singh to answer the questions I presented. And so far the whole SPN team, Aman Singh, Naranoyjot Kaur, Randip Singh, Tejwant Singh, Gyani Jarnail Singh have been quiet on it.

Well Gyani did try, but got what was coming to him.

These guys are quiet for a reason. It's so others can take this discussion off track and then they will come riding on there high horses and give off topic answers. There waiting for an opportunity to do what they do best. And so far it has not present itself.

Maybe in this life time they will give an answer. Let's just wait patiently.

Chardikala Singh

[Kaljug]

Then what light has it brought on this discussion. It hasn't done anything Singh. You said plants don't feel pain by using science and i came back and said plants do feel pain using science. Back at square one

Well, it's illuminated the fact that you are an idiot. Plants feel pain stimuli, they do not have the brain to rationalise these stimuli though so they do not suffer as animals and humans do. If this was not the case, they would have evolved limbs to run away from the pain.

Singh, I want Randip Singh to answer the questions I presented. And so far the whole SPN team, Aman Singh, Naranoyjot Kaur, Randip Singh, Tejwant Singh, Gyani Jarnail Singh have been quiet on it.

Well Gyani did try, but got what was coming to him.

If all you are looking for is a response from these people, send them an email. The rest of the world is not interested in your personal vendettas.

K.

[das]

First and foremost: I am NOT fully vegetarian; I sometimes do take egg and I consider this as negative because I take it for tongue's taste. Secondly, I do NOT care whether you are vege or non-vege.....it's your choice/problem and it is each individual who is responsible for any good and/or bad effects.

But I do NOT like the idea of Non-Vege saying that meat eating and/or Jhatka is allowed in Sikhi. To everyone who says that Jhatka is Sikh history and Sikhs did this and that; please answer the following: I've asked this previously, but have NOT received any answer:

- Where in Sikh history ANY Guru asked/ordered/did the Jhatka and then tilak swords?

- There are instances where GURUs have killed the animals, but those were for their (animal's) previous janam's lekha-joka. In other words, GURU never did the Jhatka and then tilak sword. But please post the case where Gurus have instructed their followers to do Jhatka or we were instructed to follow the way Guru kill animals?

- Some say that Gurus kill goats, lions etc. etc. and this is correct, but can we copy GURU? can we give mukti to killed animal?

I've few friends who are non-vegetarians since birth, and say it bluntly that "Guru Gobind Singh Ji" eat meat......I remember one Sakhi where once Jhatka meat was served to Guru's army after they fought for 40 days WITHOUT food and at that time there was NO food.....I do NOT if GuruJi instructed HIS army to eat or not.....but the point is: If you want to copy Guru (even tough one should NOT), then you should also ask your father to sacrifice his life for the poor, let you be available for fight for the weak.

Think about it.

Again, I do NOT care if you are vege or non-vege. Enjoy your karamas!

The Tuk: "Fools who wrange over flesh....." is very true: A pure vegetarian person but having kam, krod, lobh, muh, ahankar is worst as compared to Non-Vege without kam, krod, lobh, muh, ahankar. But it does NOT mean that a person who is vege by choice or by rule should start eating non-veg. Our Aim in this life is to overcome the 5 thieves and be one with GOD; and NOT to quarrel about what to eat and what not to.

[Only five]

Er, I'm not the one who is talking about slapping people in the face becauise they are not a member of the Bhai Sahib Bhai Ranshir Singh personality cult.

Any personal comment, I will not respond too. But this one I will. Not part of any Bhai Randhir Singh cult. Not part of any jatha or group. And the slapping bit is a metaphor, so it's best to understand in context.

Yes, you are on a mission because vegetarianism has never been a core teaching of Sikhi.

Personal attack so won't comment.

Randip Singh's article was written in response to idiots like you who ignore Sikh history and attempt to pass off your vaishnav vegetarianism as anything to do with Sikhi.

Again personal attacks are ignored and Randips article has holes in it. And if you say where then read the view I put forward that started this whole dicussion.

The fact that you seem to believe that you are on some mission is evident from your questioning something that has been a part of Singh lifestyle since the creation of the Khalsa and before and by your use of expressions common to religious fanatics (veil of illusionist what?).

More personal things being thrown around, so no point on answering. The questions put holes in Randip singh views and intrepration.

I find it pretty amusing that you are accusing me of aggression and not being neutral when it is you who are here trying to pass off your personal eating habits as something that has anything whatsover to do with Sikhi as a whole.

I put questions forward that point out mistakes in the article "Fools who Wrangle Over Flesh"

Just waiting for them to be answered. Thanks

Your passive-aggressive insults accusing people of having PMS and saying anything because they crave the taste of flesh is also pretty hlarious, especially since I'm pretty sure your onetrack fanatical bent of mind does not permit you to see how you are obsessed with such trivia as what is on someone else's dinner plate.

Again personal comments won't be answered too.

Nope, see above. It is madness to concern yourself what others chose to eat.

Not concerned with what people eat just put holes in Randip Singh article "Fools who Wrangle Over Flesh". Now he has to find ways to fill those holes.

See your post above with the panktis.

That panktis is presented because the article "Fools Wrangle over Flesh" present it and misintrepreted it to suit them. And all I did was point out that meat was grouped as one and is before the Rahaoo.

The only thing that will happen if you vegetarians chose to attempt to divide the Panth based on diet is that you will lose, and like the Bandai Singh who believed Sikhs should be vegetarians, you will be forced to consume what you most detest for attempting such aggression against the will of the Khalsa Panth.

personal again so no comment. Just going to smile the whole way.

Chardikala Singhs ate whatever they wanted or was available because they had better things to concern themselves with than dietary concerns.

Not related to this topic. So going to ignore like the personal comments. Thanks

"And yes, the hamburger was tasty, and raagmala is Gurbani.

K."

More personal comments that have nothign to do with topic on hand.

Well I'll clear up raagmala is Gurbani aswell. Thanks

[Only five]

Well, it's illuminated the fact that you are an idiot. Plants feel pain stimuli, they do not have the brain to rationalise these stimuli though so they do not suffer as animals and humans do. If this was not the case, they would have evolved limbs to run away from the pain.

If all you are looking for is a response from these people, send them an email. The rest of the world is not interested in your personal vendettas.

K.

Please go read the newer study's and how plants feel pain when pulled out of the ground and peeled or boiled or eaten. Thanks. Plus science is just a thoery of what is, not 100% fact and does not stand for what Guru Sahib have said. So please present only what Guru Sahib have said on this topic to answer the question I put forward.

SPN was brought up because Randip writes there and will be able to get his team to answer my questions. They need to fix up the article "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh" so it does not misrepresent what Sikhs say about meat and non meat. And my questions that show their mispresentation should be posted allover the net and to where Randip Singh article was posted else where. This would be only the honest thing to do for them and anyone that promoted the article.

Pleas, Please leave the personal comments out when answering.

Thanks

[HSD1]

Oh dear, some people just cant help themselves can they?

Now listen here, for every part of Gurbani that is misquoted by meatheads, there are just as many twisted by vegefascists. Only five, you are guilty of this. You are acting like a mirror image of the Randip Singh.

As for Ang 1289 and 1290, it is clear that it is telling people not to preach on one subject when they neglect to be perfect with regards to other things. If you go on about how bad meat eaters are, you have be a pretty good Gursikh yourself. You can lie, and we wont be able to see your faults over the internet, but Waheguru has made it clear what lies in wait for the vegefascists. Proceed at your own peril.

If the entire panth became vegetarians over night, what would it acheive? Would 84 be avenged? Would we get sovereignty over our own nation? Would the shaheeds come back? If the shaheeds did come back, what would they think of this nonsense arguing over meat? Lets face it, if we were all to become strict vegetarians, the vegefascists and meatheads would just move to something else to argue over. Such is the poison of fundamentalism. I encourage young sikhs to watch these arguments but not waste their time taking part. None of us are perfect, we shouldnt judge our brothers or sisters, instead we should try to do parchaar a little closer to home.

Another point is this: gluttony. Ok, only five, lets say meat eating is bad etc etc, but what about those singhs in langar who shove their face? I remember seeing the same faces keep coming back for more, sometimes 3 seperate helpings, which leaves me in disbelief. Langar is to feed everyone, I know that, which includes those who are rich or poor. It is not a buffet. I look at some of these tubby grubby sweaty singhs and think to myself 'where were you in 84?'. Probably in langar chewing with their mouths open. So isnt gluttony and lack of restraint just as bad nowadays in this world as eating meat?

You cannot decide what is on topic and what is off topic. You say science is of no use, but then how do you know that plants feel pain? Well you even said it was from scientific studies. Though i'm not sure why you keep on revisiting the plants feel pain thing as it means we shouldnt eat them either. Maybe you should answer why should sikhs not eat meat?

Next, you say this is about proving Randip wrong. Now you are clever enough to see he hasnt posted again. Maybe, just maybe, do you think he expected someone like you to show up, and knew that you would cause enough trouble to force moderate sikhs onto his side? Kaljug said he had reduced his meat consumption, only for you to goad him into thinking of having a burger. Do you see what you did? Do you even care that you are having the oppposite effect of what you say you wanted to achieve?

Lastly, science has a part in everything. Only five, it is clear your grasp of it is basic, which is unfortunate. Look around you. Look at Waheguru's creation. The sun, the moon, the stars. The grass, the trees, the mountains. The birds, the mammals, the reptiles. All of their composition, all of the reactions going on inside them and the effects of what they do, who do you think created that? It is clear to me that Waheguru is the greatest scientist, as Waheguru came up with every scientific 'theory' that affects our existence. So show some respect.

If this discussion carries on with no purpose or logic/reasoning I think the mods should just close it.

[Only five]

Oh dear, some people just cant help themselves can they?

Now listen here, for every part of Gurbani that is misquoted by meatheads, there are just as many twisted by vegefascists. Only five, you are guilty of this. You are acting like a mirror image of the Randip Singh.

Yeah i know how it seems that way because of the constant arguements with Kalyug. I'm done with it see the post above this.

As for Ang 1289 and 1290, it is clear that it is telling people not to preach on one subject when they neglect to be perfect with regards to other things. If you go on about how bad meat eaters are, you have be a pretty good Gursikh yourself. You can lie, and we wont be able to see your faults over the internet, but Waheguru has made it clear what lies in wait for the vegefascists. Proceed at your own peril.

HSD read the article I put forward. If you read it carefully, its not even saying meat should be taken as bad or good. What the article I wrote does show is the mistakes made in the article "Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh" This is what all Kalyug is fighting about. Randip's article was seen as gold. And now it isn't. On my end, I'm done and showed what I wanted to show. Now it's on the meathead lol, to bring forward what they want to say.

If the entire panth became vegetarians over night, what would it acheive? Would 84 be avenged? Would we get sovereignty over our own nation? Would the shaheeds come back? If the shaheeds did come back, what would they think of this nonsense arguing over meat? Lets face it, if we were all to become strict vegetarians, the vegefascists and meatheads would just move to something else to argue over. Such is the poison of fundamentalism. I encourage young sikhs to watch these arguments but not waste their time taking part. None of us are perfect, we shouldnt judge our brothers or sisters, instead we should try to do parchaar a little closer to home.

The only people that are making a big deal out of what I wrote is the meatheads. Yes I did put it on three sites. Nothing wrong with that just sharing the info. I have to get involved when stupid arguements are put forward. This is not about being perfect.

Another point is this: gluttony. Ok, only five, lets say meat eating is bad etc etc, but what about those singhs in langar who shove their face? I remember seeing the same faces keep coming back for more, sometimes 3 seperate helpings, which leaves me in disbelief. Langar is to feed everyone, I know that, which includes those who are rich or poor. It is not a buffet. I look at some of these tubby grubby sweaty singhs and think to myself 'where were you in 84?'. Probably in langar chewing with their mouths open. So isnt gluttony and lack of restraint just as bad nowadays in this world as eating meat?

Good you brought this up. Thanks Gluttony is a wrong action in Sikhi.

You cannot decide what is on topic and what is off topic. You say science is of no use, but then how do you know that plants feel pain? Well you even said it was from scientific studies.

Only reason I brought up the science study of plants feel pain because it shows how riducilous it is to bring science into when we are discussing what Guru Sahib said. Science can say many thing's but it does not speak for Guru Sahib. Sure it can agree with Guru Sahib, but never disprove Guru Sahib. So that's why it's best to leave it out and doesn't prove one way or the other. When you read the sugar cane Shabad it is speaking metaphorically and literally. Well I see it that way and it does make sense both ways.

Though i'm not sure why you keep on revisiting the plants feel pain thing as it means we shouldnt eat them either.

Not really, but as I said earlier plants and animals are not equal.

Maybe you should answer why should sikhs not eat meat?

The above answers this one

Next, you say this is about proving Randip wrong. Now you are clever enough to see he hasnt posted again. Maybe, just maybe, do you think he expected someone like you to show up, and knew that you would cause enough trouble to force moderate sikhs onto his side?

Sorry, HSD this is not about gathering votes, but presenting the errors in an article "Fools who Wrangle Over Flesh". If he wants to gather up more fools with him then that's his choice. If he Randip Singh wants to mislead more people then that is his choice. But i presented what I wanted and am not here to get votes or someones backing. Hence why i don't write under my real name. Wrote as Singh on SPN and now write as Only Five on sikhsangat and here. SPN member Tejwant begged me to disclose my real name, but never will. Because I am not one who prides over being right and wanting everyone to know who wrote it. For me it's all about learning and continuing to move forward. Even when I wrote to Mr. Nisher about his article I wrote just as Singh. It doesn't matter who present the data, just it's out there for everyone to see.

Kaljug said he had reduced his meat consumption, only for you to goad him into thinking of having a burger. Do you see what you did? Do you even care that you are having the oppposite effect of what you say you wanted to achieve?

Come on HSD, you actually think I am that big of an influence. Plus a person that reads Bani shouldn't have such a short fuse and be moved so easily. I can't sway anyone one way or the other. Just presenting a side and if some want to go out and eat meat because they can't come up with a counter arguement-says alot about where they stand. It means they are unwilling to look at the facts and be truthful with themselves. I can't force or will never force anyone to be truthful to themselves. I have bad habits aswell, but will acknowledge them and try to better myself. Cool heads is the best way to go.

Lastly, science has a part in everything. Only five, it is clear your grasp of it is basic, which is unfortunate. Look around you. Look at Waheguru's creation. The sun, the moon, the stars. The grass, the trees, the mountains. The birds, the mammals, the reptiles. All of their composition, all of the reactions going on inside them and the effects of what they do, who do you think created that? It is clear to me that Waheguru is the greatest scientist, as Waheguru came up with every scientific 'theory' that affects our existence. So show some respect.

If this discussion carries on with no purpose or logic/reasoning I think the mods should just close it.

Like I said above. I am done discussing something that has nothing left to discuss. All there is left now is personal attacks and short fuses.

It's closed on my end, till Randip Singh writes or one of his team members.

For the ones that gave it a shot to answer my questions. Thanks for all your efforts.

[chatanga1]

so human flesh is on the menu to i take it?

silence, did you read the sentence i wrote after that?

[chatanga1]

Singh, we shouldn't start shooting others and saying your dividing the panth. The man who wrote this article, Randip Singh made mistakes in his article and I pointed them out. Now you should be telling Randip Singh to come up with a better way to promote his meat eating. He's pro meat and if you haven't noticed i am not pro anything just following as told. And asking why.

If you see my points as splitting the panth, then that because it's not in your favor. The day you stop saying I am on this side or the other is the day you'll see what I presented clearly.

the only side im on is guru's. that is "only fools wrangle over flesh." fools, all of you. even me, so im not even gna get into this anymore.

understand.

[HSD1]

When you read the sugar cane Shabad it is speaking metaphorically and literally. Well I see it that way and it does make sense both ways.

Well only Guru Nanak Ji can answer that. But lets face it, if sugar cane feels pain, why doesnt corn? Or are our Gurus discriminating against corn in favour of sugar cane for some reason? Taking Gurbani too literally is not the same as what Guru Sahib wants us to believe.

[Xylitol]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Because science often illuminates and, unlike the poster above believes, is never off-topic.

K.

Agreed that it is not off-topic. Just trying to point out that it seems sometime people try to prove something is morally right or wrong using science.

[Xylitol]

Singh, you say the sugar cane feels pain. Fine. Now answer the questions I asked you.

Whether vegafascitst prefer to eat something or not is immaterial. Whether meat eaters will eat something is also immaterial.

These questions are important because they show the hypocrisy in the meat eaters. The OP is there so don't ask me to repeat myself.

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