Jump to content

Sarbloh Guru Granth on meat /Banda Singh Bahudar.


Recommended Posts

I've read persian accounts of 'bandas' attacks, he killed women who were especting babies. Now, singh47, u must also know that even sikh itaastic granths talk of banda being a rebel, going away from the panth, starting his own thing, wearing red bana, hardcore vege (wouldnt even eat onions), started fateh darshan like javanmard said, and claimed he was guroo.

Bhai Akaali Jee, only contemporary Islamic sources claim that which are subject to bias against Sikhs. I want Lalleshwari to show me a non Islamic, yet contemporary source saying he killed innocent women and children.

As for Sikh Granths claiming he was a rebel. The only one is Panth Parkash of Bhangoo. This granth was written nearly a hundred years after those events took place! There are bound to be some errors in such accounts. This granth even claims that Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Jee was a heretic who got was he deserved. It also claims that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh Jee would take Marijuana first thing in the morning even before taking an Ishan and doing his Nitnem.

We should use our critical thinking mechanism before blindly believing in everything written in books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Show me a contemporary source that shows that he didn't kill innocents...

Duh…I’m not the one here trying to prove anything. For the Sikhs, Baba Jee is a Hero and will remain a hero. It is you who is trying to destroy his image like you tried doing with Baba Jarnail Singh Jee. You are the one trying to claim he was a mass murderer. So the burden of proof is on you not me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest SAdmin

I think unless you change mentality of people there is no hope for Punjab to progress. They need to get rid of caste based politics which Mr. Prakash Singh Badal has been exploiting by getting votes of poor farmers of Punjab. People need to change things with protests. Punjab needs to establish the values of good human beings. There is more intoxications and alcohol in Punjab than any other state. People have no respect for women in villages. There was a time when Punjabi or rural Sikhs were known for protecting women and weak person but now its opposite. Everybody is either Ranjha or Mirza and love affairs of same village girl and boy are common. People need to restore that pride which Sikhs and Punjabi in general had and known for. Changing people's mind and restoring pride and ethics is what we need not a name change.

To be brutally honest, I could say this that Punjab’s residents (mostly) have no dignity or “Anakh†left to start with. They will run any scam just to get to western countries and Sikh women has become joke with their new western image.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with SAdmins Jee. Sikhs need to better themselves before thinking about the creation of a political or geographical entity. Punjabis of the 80s and the Punjabis of today are very different people. Values seem to have changed and the people seem to have changed for the worse. Right now parchaar is needed more than anything. All other goals are secondary compared to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Javanmard

Banda Vairagi according to ALL pre-20th century soucres Sikh and non-Sikh was a murdered and a traitor to Maharaj. Be it Persian, Sikh or even British sources they all state the same...It is Neo-Sikhs who made him a hero

for their ideology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Banda Vairagi according to ALL pre-20th century soucres Sikh and non-Sikh was a murdered and a traitor to Maharaj. Be it Persian, Sikh or even British sources they all state the same...It is Neo-Sikhs who made him a hero

for their ideology.

Please stop dodging my requests. What part of "I want some non Muslim but contemporary sources" dont you understand?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Javanmard

‘Banda wished to make Sikh abandon their blue dress, to refrain from drinking and eating flesh: and instead of exclaiming Wa! Guruji ki Futteh! Wa! Khalsaji ki Futteh! The salutations directed by Govind, he directed them to exclaim, Futteh D’herm! Futteh dersan! Which means, ‘Success to piety! Success to the sect!’ These innovations were very generally resisted: but the dreaded severity of Banda, made many conform to his orders. The class of Acalis, or immortals, who had been established by Guru Govind, continued to oppose the innovations with great obstinacy: and many of them suffered martyrdom, rather than change either their mode of salutation, diet or dress: and, at the death of Banda, their cause triumphed. All the institutions of Guru Govind were restored.’

‘Sketch Of The Sikhs’, by J.C. Malcolm, 1812, P. 83

One of the first principles of historiography is to base yourself on the first sources available. All the early sources clearly say he betrayed Maharaj. Be they Persian, Sikh or British!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As usual you have just dodged my question. I will repeat my question:

“please quote for me where he(Malcome) wrote that Shaheed Baba Banda Singh killed thousands of Muslim women and children.â€

I ask this because you falsely accused Baba Jee by saying the following:

Banda Vairagi betrayed Guru Gobind Singh and killed thousands of innocent Muslim men, women and children.

Now prove your lie with some real hard facts. And this time don’t dodge my question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, Malcome says

"Banda wished to make Sikh abandon their blue dress, to refrain from drinking and eating flesh:"

Are you trying to claim that Sikhs use to drink sharaab during the time of Guru Gobind Singh Jee?

Also, eating of flesh is against Khalsa Dharm according to Sarbloh Granth which I know that you beleive was written by Dasam Patshah. So who is right, Sarbloh Granth or Malcome?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Javanmard

Where on earth does Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib says that meat is a sin? is that another fantasy of yours? If you accept Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib I am sure yo have no problem accepting Imam Ali (as) as some of its hymns in Persian are dedicated to him. Unless your islamophobia doesn't allow you to do so...

There is a rahitnama (Bhai Desa Singh if I am not wrong) that AKJ loves to quote that clearly talks about the very moderate use of wine (small quantities, not in public) before battle, which is in agreement with kshatriya codes. It is very clear that it forbids being drunk.

Regarding the killing on innocent Muslims read the Persian sources.

But I have here an interesting quote from www.sikh-history.com regarding Banda Bahadur taking over Samana, a city full of Shi'a Sayyids, many of them related to Pir Budhhu Shah. Let's see what the "glorious" Banda Bairagi did there:

"Samana, 50 kms farther North was the native place of Jalal-ud-did Jallad, the professional executioner, who had beheaded Guru Tegh Bahadur, while his son had beheaded two younger sons of Guru Gobind singh. Ali Hussain who by false promises had lured Guru Gobind singh to evacuate Anandpur also belonged to Samana. It was an accursed place in the eyes of Sikhs. The entire peasantry of the neighborhood was now up in arms, and Banda's following had risen to several thousands. Banda fell upon the town on November 26, 1709. The inhabitants were massacred in cold blood and town thoroughly squeezed. Samana was the district town and had nine Parganahs attached to it. It was placed under the charge of Fateh Singh. Samana was the first territorial conquest and the first administrative unit of Banda."

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/banda.html

Where the children and women in Samana responsible for Ali Hussain's crime?

Here another crunchy episode:

By next afternoon Sikhs forced open the gates and fell upon the city. The Government treasury and moveable property worth two crores fell into Banda's hand which was removed to Lohgarh. Several Muslims saved their lives by embracing Sikhism. Dindar Khan son of Jalal Khan Rohilla became Dindar Singh. The official newswriter of Sarhind Mir Nasir-ud-din changed his name to Mir Nasir singh. (Yar Mohammand, Dastur-ul insha, page 37, Persian)

I don't remember the Gurus converting anyone by force. And as I remember Guru Gobind Singh wished his Khalsa never to sink to the level of Aurangzeb and stay ucha. Banda Bairagi, leader of the Khalsa Panth? What a joke!

After having destroyed Sirhind he leaves one place untouched.Guess which one? The homes of innocent civilians? no...What then? The grave of Ahmad Sirhindi who encouraged Jahangir to have Guru Arjan executed. Interesting how Banda Bairagi the traitor choses to leave the grave of another traitor to the Guru intact whilst inncocent people die...

Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan clearly said that Banda Bairagi should not be followed, yet Neo-Sikhs chose to disobey their Mothers by calling this Banda Bairagi a hero and true Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh...

Let me guess www.sikh-history has got to be a Shi'a funded RSS-Congress-BJP-Nirankari site. I am sure it's a conspiracy!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where on earth does Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib says that meat is a sin? is that another fantasy of yours?

I’m glad you asked. In Sarbloh Granth it says:

Aso Khalsa khals padh prapt, nirankari shiv roop mahanung|

Gur updesh, sikh prat bhashn, mudra trai, kach kesh kripanung|

Ta ki rehet, surt oukat bhakat, das grahi khalsa pradanung|

Saadan, sidh, sur, bhagat manund, das grahi aastak maanung|

Tiagi das birodh mat saadhun, hinsaa, hankaar, alas premaanung|

Kattorta, kucheelta, jaRta, kripnta, as ouch kul maas abhakhat maanung|

Das grahi, das tiagi aiso, tahai Khalsa kathat sujaanung|

Aiso Khalsa, khalsa padh prapat, nirankari shiv roop mahaanung|

(Sarbloh Granth, Page 255)

I will create such a Khalsa who will be the possessor of the ten virtues (das gun) and will abandon all vices. Amongst the vices that will be abandoned are Kattorta (cruelty), kucheelta (dirtiness), JaRtaa (foolishness), kripnta and my Khalsa will not consume flesh (Maas Abhukhat Maanung). That is why they will be of high lineage. Meaning that flesh as food is a depraved substance to eat and is consumed by low born ones (Neech Jati). Those of high lineage i.e. Khalsa will not consume it.

According to Sarbloh Granth, Dasam Guru’s hukam is “Maas Abhukhat Maanungâ€, "Daya Man Laavoh†and “Hinsa Dhurmat Tiagoâ€. Those who do not follow these Hukams of Dasam Patsha and continue to commit sin after sin because of Jeeb Rass by killing and eating God’s creatures i.e. animals, what right do such people have left to call themselves Khalsa of Guru Gobind Singh Jee?

If you accept Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib I am sure yo have no problem accepting Imam Ali (as) as some of its hymns in Persian are dedicated to him. Unless your islamophobia doesn't allow you to do so...

Hey, you wont get any argument from me here. I don’t have anything against Imam Ali. I respect him because he was a brave warrior. So I don’t see the point in mentioning Ali in all of this.

“There is a rahitnama (Bhai Desa Singh if I am not wrong) that AKJ loves to quote that clearly talks about the very moderate use of wine (small quantities, not in public) before battle, which is in agreement with kshatriya codes. It is very clear that it forbids being drunk.â€

I don’t care what Kshatriya codes have to say about drinking. Kshatriya codes does not equate to Khalsa Maryada. Drinking is a weakness, which destroys the body.

Regarding the killing on innocent Muslims read the Persian sources.

But I have here an interesting quote from www.sikh-history.com regarding Banda Bahadur taking over Samana, a city full of Shi'a Sayyids, many of them related to Pir Budhhu Shah.

So the truth finally comes out. The only reason you seem so angry is because Samana was a city full of Shia Sayads. So killing of Sikhs or Sunnis is perfectly fine with you, but Shia Sayyads are all off limits as they are Gods chosen people… arrant they?

the "glorious" Banda Bairagi did there:

"Samana, 50 kms farther North was the native place of Jalal-ud-did Jallad, the professional executioner, who had beheaded Guru Tegh Bahadur, while his son had beheaded two younger sons of Guru Gobind singh. Ali Hussain who by false promises had lured Guru Gobind singh to evacuate Anandpur also belonged to Samana. It was an accursed place in the eyes of Sikhs. The entire peasantry of the neighborhood was now up in arms, and Banda's following had risen to several thousands. Banda fell upon the town on November 26, 1709. The inhabitants were massacred in cold blood and town thoroughly squeezed. Samana was the district town and had nine Parganahs attached to it. It was placed under the charge of Fateh Singh. Samana was the first territorial conquest and the first administrative unit of Banda."

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/warriors/banda.html

Where the children and women in Samana responsible for Ali Hussain's crime?

Here another crunchy episode:

By next afternoon Sikhs forced open the gates and fell upon the city. The Government treasury and moveable property worth two crores fell into Banda's hand which was removed to Lohgarh. Several Muslims saved their lives by embracing Sikhism. Dindar Khan son of Jalal Khan Rohilla became Dindar Singh. The official newswriter of Sarhind Mir Nasir-ud-din changed his name to Mir Nasir singh. (Yar Mohammand, Dastur-ul insha, page 37, Persian)

I don't remember the Gurus converting anyone by force. And as I remember Guru Gobind Singh wished his Khalsa never to sink to the level of Aurangzeb and stay ucha. Banda Bairagi, leader of the Khalsa Panth? What a joke!

After having destroyed Sirhind he leaves one place untouched.Guess which one? The homes of innocent civilians? no...What then? The grave of Ahmad Sirhindi who encouraged Jahangir to have Guru Arjan executed. Interesting how Banda Bairagi the traitor choses to leave the grave of another traitor to the Guru intact whilst inncocent people die...

Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan clearly said that Banda Bairagi should not be followed, yet Neo-Sikhs chose to disobey their Mothers by calling this Banda Bairagi a hero and true Sikh of Guru Gobind Singh...

Let me guess www.sikh-history has got to be a Shi'a funded RSS-Congress-BJP-Nirankari site. I am sure it's a conspiracy!!!

Do you have some serious learning disabilities I should be aware of? What part of “I want some non Muslim but contemporary sources" don’t you understand?

First you quote KPS Gill’s website to justify your venomous views about Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay, and now you quote Muslim sources full of bias and over exaggeration about Sikhs to justify your hateful views about Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, are you now also going to start believing everything that Muslims have to say about Akali Phula Singh? Because Muslim historians hold the same view about him that they held about Baba Banda Singh Bahadur.

Again for the umpteenth time I ask my question:

Please quote for me a non Muslim but contemporary source that states that Shaheed Baba Banda Singh killed thousands of Muslim women and children.

And for Imam Ali's sake, dont avoid this question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As my dynamic name, is being thrown all over this forum post. It is only right that I have a word to say..

Jokes, aside..

I remember asking Baba Santa Singh about Bandai Khalsas, and if we should associate with them. He replied that even though Banda had committed his sins which included the killing of innocents and abuse of the panth and his position, the bandai followers had payed their tankha through shaheedi etc, and were not to be discriminated against. in todays day and age,

But to be honest, I know of many occassions in which sikhs have in the name of their khalsa identity taken to violence against innocents.. The southall slough violence of 1990s rings a few bells. Now you might all say they werent true sikhs bla bla.. but lol when the hell was the panth ever full of true sikhs??

There have been traitors and backstabbers since the times of the Gurus, a state is not a perfect heaven of like minded angels.. it is a collection of all types of identities, from the blood hungry mad men, to the great respected saints and shaheeds.

Secondly the personal accusations against javanmard, have no ground, so dont make up crap just coz you think you know the guy. His views are respected on this forum because he opens our eyes to alot of concepts and thoughts which are usually ignored by the typical punjabi sikh..

His range of experience and personal life allows for a refreshing dialogue about the key concepts of Sikhi we all take for granted. If you disagree with the guy fine, but personal attacks dont have no ground.

OOh and akalisohdistan, I accept your offer.. lets start enriching nucleur reactors for peaceful means :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gurfateh

Dear Bro Singh47,

At present sarbloh Granth das had is with his Shaster Vidiya Ustad as per Budhadal version,there is nothing as such say page 255 yet das will have relook at it.

anyway As(Swrod) Uoch(high) Kul(all/Dynansty) Maas(Meat/Month)Abhakat(unedaible) Mannan(g)(Behold/Proud).So kindly try to understand it.

Coming to Sikh soources,Baba Banda Singh Ji did lived life of Sikh for sometime but his end came as he forgot the worship of Guru Panth.

His contempory scriputre could be Mangal Prakash and later one could be book by Bhangu both books are by Singhs and before the Britisher's coming.

His conduct gives us the leson to always respect the Panth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As my dynamic name, is being thrown all over this forum post. It is only right that I have a word to say..

Jokes, aside..

I remember asking Baba Santa Singh about Bandai Khalsas, and if we should associate with them. He replied that even though Banda had committed his sins which included the killing of innocents and abuse of the panth and his position, the bandai followers had payed their tankha through shaheedi etc, and were not to be discriminated against. in todays day and age,

But to be honest, I know of many occassions in which sikhs have in the name of their khalsa identity taken to violence against innocents.. The southall slough violence of 1990s rings a few bells. Now you might all say they werent true sikhs bla bla.. but lol when the hell was the panth ever full of true sikhs??

There have been traitors and backstabbers since the times of the Gurus, a state is not a perfect heaven of like minded angels.. it is a collection of all types of identities, from the blood hungry mad men, to the great respected saints and shaheeds.

Secondly the personal accusations against javanmard, have no ground, so dont make up crap just coz you think you know the guy. His views are respected on this forum because he opens our eyes to alot of concepts and thoughts which are usually ignored by the typical punjabi sikh..

His range of experience and personal life allows for a refreshing dialogue about the key concepts of Sikhi we all take for granted. If you disagree with the guy fine, but personal attacks dont have no ground.

OOh and akalisohdistan, I accept your offer.. lets start enriching nucleur reactors for peaceful means :D

lets get on it then pow

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bhai Vijaydeep Singh Jee, how can you be so sure it is not written in Sarbloh Granth? have you read all of Sarbloh Granth and have it memorized to be so sure it was not written in Sarbloh Granth? How can you verify that it wasn’t written in it? I have read it so that is why I present it here to prove that Sarbloh Granth does not approve of eating Maas. Tukhs just don’t appear out of thin air.

That poudi comes after two other poudis in which Dasam Patsha first describes the ways of Muslim and followed by the Hindus. Then Dasam Patsha writes about the ways of the Khalsa which is the poudi I have written here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Javanmard

Vâhigurûjîkâkhâlsâ Vâhigurûjîkîfateh

I wish to reply to Singh 47.

1.First of all I will finally answer the part on whether or not there were contemporary sources that were non-Muslims who testify to the fact that Banda Bahadur (or the men under his command and responsibility) commited atrocities against innocent Muslims.

Since Dr. Ganda Singh's book on Banda Bahadur (1935) most books written by Neo-Sikhs on Banda Bahadur have consciously omitted to talk about such atrocities due to an ideological bias that I will discuss later on. The fact remains that most contemprary sources on Banda Bahadur are in Persian. Now the fact that they were written in Persian does NOT mean they were all written by Muslims. Cultured and civilised people of that period all spoke Persian. You just need to take the example of Guru Gobind Singh, Bhai Nand Lal and Pyara Daya Singh. In fact Guru Gobind Singh used to adress his sangat coming from Afghanistan in Persian.

Here are the names of some non-Muslim contemporary sources who wrote in Persian mentioned by Dr. Ganda Singh himself: Ganesh Das Badehra, Kanhia Lall, Radha Kishan and Bakht Mall. There are unfortunately no critical editions of their works to this day that I can access but last night I phoned my very good friend who does a PhD in Sikh history at the university of London. He is from a rahitvan keshdhari family that has occupied important positions in Maharaj's court since the days of Guru Harigobind. Him and his family whom I know pretty well have survived the Delhi riots by a miracle. (the mob was about to enter the building, the whole family gathered around a gaz canister with matches in order to blow themselves up with the blood-thirsty in case they entered their apartment). Most of the family speaks Persian too and has conserved much of the traditional culture from the Gurus' time.

His area of research in precisely Sikh-Muslim relations in the post-Guru Gobind Singh era. He is presently uncovering all this ancient material. He confirmed to me that even non-Muslim sources clearly indicate that Banda Bahadur commited such atrocities. He was shocked to discover that as he was not expecting it but as an academic he had to put his romanic idea of Banda Bahadur aside. Unfortunately his work will only start being published next year but if you're patient enough you'll see for yourselves.

Now let us get back to the real core of the question: the use of Muslim sources. Singh 47 affirms they are not trust worthy because they are biased. By the same token he accuses me of being biased for having used KPS Gill's website.

He seems to forget one thing: I have also quoted Human Rights Watch. Now Human Rights Watch is neither a Khalistani, RSS, BJP or pro-Congress organisation. The reason why I also posted the HRW report was to balance the post from KPS Gill's site. The HRW report clearly states that human rights abuses were commited by the Indian forces but it also states abuses by the Khalistanis. There is no doubt that KPS Gill as a source could (I clearly say "could" not that it "is") be biased. There is indeed the possibility that his account could be exagerated. That is why I mentioned an independent source showing that human right abuses were commited by Khalistanis and that KPS Gill's account could in fact be quite close to the truth. In any case the Taksal bragged about how they killed the murderer of SS. Sodhi i.e. Baljit Kaur.

In the case of Banda Bahadur we have Persian sources saying that he committed atrocities. Let us suppose that these were lying let us then look at Sikh sources: Rattan Singh Bhangu and Giani Gian Singh. Just because they lived later than Banda Bahadur doesn't mean thy didn't have their own sources. And guess what? They indeed had! Rattan Singh Bhangu was the grandson of Bhai Mehtab Singh of Mirankot who wa a contemporary of Banda Bahadur. Rattan Singh Bhangu thus had access to eye witness accounts. Now if the Persian accounts lie why is it that Rattan Singh Bhangu confirms the fact that Banda Bahadur not only betrayed the Guru but also massacred the Muslim population of certain cities and villages. Giani Gian Singh himself consulted several old people who either had lived long enough to give a direct account or their sons to whom these accounts were transmitted. Giani Gian Singh didn't just consult one or two people. He lists a whole group of them. Why would Sikh sources confirm the Persian accounts? Unless of course if they were true. Neo-Sikhs like to invoke all kinds of conspiracy theories to explain as to why all pre-Singh Sabha sources be they Sikh or not say that Banda Bahadur betrayed the Guru. In fact I have even come accross Neo-Sikhs who said that Mata Sundari was not in her right mind when she ordered Sikhs to leave Banda Bahadur's party...

Now back to the approach to Muslim sources themselves and for that let's go back to Dr. Ganda Singh. He writes in his introduction to his book:

"Unfortunately no account of Banda Singh so far written by a contemporary or a later writer -Muslim, Hindu, or Sikh- exhibits his true character"

But of course Dr. Ganda Singh's boo written in 1935 has the whole truth about Banda Bahadur?!?

Well, why not if it had been proper academic work which is simply isn't. His work is replete with ideological bias.

He himself writes that the Muslim writers " are influenced by their pro-Islamic prejudices against the non-Muslims. They have a readily accepted false and flimsy rumours as historical truths and have charged Banda Singh with the blackest cruelty and barbarism, which 'had infidels been the sufferers and a Mussalman the actor, says Mills "they might not perhaps, have thought unworthy of applause."

This in itself is an ideological bias based on Orientalistic prejudices. He accuses Muslim writers to be unbiased on the basis of his own bias by virtue of which Muslim are inveterate liars and dishonest people. If so why do even Persian sources praise the courage of Singhs of the misl period and their chivalry? Biased again? If it was just the case of one or two sources saying that Banda Bahadur commited atrocities but the fact is that they all say that. Now anyone knowing the Persian sources knows who boringly detailed they are. They even count the number of kards and matchlocks used in battle. Why would Muslim sources admit that Sikh beat Mughal troops and that they fought brilliantly? Even if the sources exagerated one cannot just brush away these claims because they come from Muslims. They HAVE to be taken into account!

The bias of Dr. Ganda Singh and Singh47 is based of Islamophobia. "Muslims are inveterate liars and fanatics and the few good ones are not really Muslims, like the Sufis... "

It reminds me of a scene in the movie Kingdom of Heaven. Reynald the Chatillon, a nobleman attached to the Templars is accused of attacking innocent Muslim pilgrims. Tiberias (played by Jeremy Irons) says that he has an eyewitness. Reynald the Chatillon says: "He's a Sarascene, a Muslim, he lies!!!"

Probably the Iraqi women who get raped in Abu Ghaib by American soldiers are lying too...

2. Now let us move to the quote from Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib graciously given by Singh Sahib Singh47. I would like to quote it so that everyone here can see for themselves what he was written:

I’m glad you asked. In Sarbloh Granth it says:

Aso Khalsa khals padh prapt, nirankari shiv roop mahanung|

Gur updesh, sikh prat bhashn, mudra trai, kach kesh kripanung|

Ta ki rehet, surt oukat bhakat, das grahi khalsa pradanung|

Saadan, sidh, sur, bhagat manund, das grahi aastak maanung|

Tiagi das birodh mat saadhun, hinsaa, hankaar, alas premaanung|

Kattorta, kucheelta, jaRta, kripnta, as ouch kul maas abhakhat maanung|

Das grahi, das tiagi aiso, tahai Khalsa kathat sujaanung|

Aiso Khalsa, khalsa padh prapat, nirankari shiv roop mahaanung|

(Sarbloh Granth, Page 255)

We all agree that he quotes a shabad starting with "Aso Khalsa..." on page 255 of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib and that he lays particular emphasis on the line "Kattorta, kucheelta, jaRta, kripnta, as ouch kul maas abhakhat maanung|"

Having established this I have done my own little research. The text of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib is published only by one institution namely Budha Dal. It has two versions of it: a one volume edition without commentaries and the other one in two volumes with commentaries.

I first of all checked in the one volume edition I have (this one is not used for prakash as it has the tilak missing and some penmarks on the inside cover pages. It is nevertheless given all the possible satkar in my humble home where it is placed as high as possible wrapped in rumals). This edition was given to me by Dr. Gurmukh Singh (scholar of Panjabi Bhasha Vibhag Patiala) a specialist of puratan Sikh literature and manuscripts. He has been given this one volume edition by Akali Baba Santa Singh himself. I have looked on page 255 and the shabad that Singh47 is not there. I did not scan the page but took still pictures with my webcam. You can see for yourselves that it isn't there even though the pictures are not of the best quality on earth. Due to the limited possibilities of my camera I had to make three pictures:

a.beginning of the page:

255a2jj.jpg

b.middle of the page:

255b3uj.jpg

c.end of page:

255c5jk.jpg

The sangat will notice that picture a. contains lines included in picture b. and that picture b. containes lines included in picture c.. I have done that so as to prove that the three pictures come from the same page. I apologise for the bad quality.

As the sangat can see the shabad that Singh 47 quotes as bieng from page 255 of Sarabloh Granth is not there. (number of the page is included n picture a.)

I thought to myself that he could have taken the shabad from the two volume edition. Again no success with page 255. Me and a friend searched for the shahabad and found it. Here are the scanned pages of the two volume edition as a proof:

firstang4hi.jpg

secondang7pt.jpg

As the sangat can clearly read the shabad does nowhere say:

Kattorta, kucheelta, jaRta, kripnta, as ouch kul maas abhakhat maanung|

as Singh47 writes.

The shabad clearly reads as:

kathoratu jartu kucilitu asûcam kalam shâ-râ-abhigati ânam.

This is from the only authorised edition by Budha Dal. Singh47 has clearly given a spurious version. Whether consciously or not he has given the sangat a false bani to suit his purpose. If he has done it unconsciously he still remains guilty as it is a duty for any Sikh to quote gurbani correctly. This is exactly what Ram Rai did, change bani for his own purpose.This isn't just a small spelling mistake: he writes a totally different words!!!

I let the moderators decide if such blasphemy is allowed on sikhawareness. In the meantime I will abstain from posting as I am not allowed to interact with ram raias who are part of the panj mel.

I hope the sangat understands.

Guru rakha!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have read it so that is why I present it here to prove that Sarbloh Granth does not approve of eating Maas. Tukhs just don’t appear out of thin air.

hahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahaha, maybe u should work on ur gurmukhi reading skills singh sahib

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol.. scholars of the panth.. dhan dhan dhan to the gian of akaal purakh in the form of his funky scholars :D

please do respond singh47 sahib, and I dont think calling anyone ram rai before allowing them to explain is a practice of compassion. so give the guy a break.. man.. give the guy a kit kat.. lol.. unless there is a sarbloh shabad baning kit kat?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

“I wish to reply to Singh 47.

1.First of all I will finally answer the part on whether or not there were contemporary sources that were non-Muslims who testify to the fact that Banda Bahadur (or the men under his command and responsibility) commited atrocities against innocent Muslims. “

Then where are these testimonies of non-Muslims you speak of? God know how many times I have repeatedly asked you over and over. But till date you have either dodged my question or have shown only Muslim sources.

Whatever you have written about Ganda Singh or your imaginary childhood friend whose family was very close to the Gurus is just a way of brushing aside the real issue on hand and avoiding answering the real tough questions. There is a gap of nearly 400 years between your friend and his ancestors who were supposedly close to the 6th Guru. So his testimony (provided he even exists!) doesn’t really hold ground as he was neither a contemporary of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur nor have you shown me a single shred of non Muslim contemporary source proving Baba Jee killing thousands of women and children.

Since you have failed to present any reliable evidence that he killed innocent women and children, I have come to the conclusion that the only reason you seem so apprehensive towards Baba Jee is because he was a Vegetarian and he spoke out against the use of Marijuana both of which you staunchly support.

â€Now let us get back to the real core of the question: the use of Muslim sources. Singh 47 affirms they are not trust worthy because they are biased. By the same token he accuses me of being biased for having used KPS Gill's website.

He seems to forget one thing: I have also quoted Human Rights Watch. Now Human Rights Watch is neither a Khalistani, RSS, BJP or pro-Congress organisation. The reason why I also posted the HRW report was to balance the post from KPS Gill's site. The HRW report clearly states that human rights abuses were commited by the Indian forces but it also states abuses by the Khalistanis. There is no doubt that KPS Gill as a source could (I clearly say "could" not that it "is") be biased. There is indeed the possibility that his account could be exagerated. That is why I mentioned an independent source showing that human right abuses were commited by Khalistanis and that KPS Gill's account could in fact be quite close to the truth.â€

Is this supposed to be a joke? You think that KPS Gill is “quite close to the truth� The fact that you quote of an ‘independent source’ from KPS Gill’s website totally destroys the reliability of your argument about Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay. KPS Gill is the one who banned human rights groups from Punjab and even branded them as part of the ‘terrorist’ network because they would speak out against his beastly atrocities on the Sikh people. In other words, the only human right report he (and you!) support and quote are the ones that tow the line for KPS Gill’s official version of accounts. Not very reliable I must say. That’s almost like someone quoting from neo-Nazi websites about the Jews and still demanding everyone to take them seriously. Lalleshwari you cannot expect people to take you seriously as a ‘scholar’ when you quote such flimsy and dubious sources. What next? Are you going to start quoting Osama Bin Laden or Hitler when backing up your views about the Jews?

-----

Now coming to Sarbloh Granth. Your ground shaking detective work doesn’t really prove a thing. All it proves is that my quote is not on Page 255 of the Budha Dal version of Sarbloh Granth. My page number was based on older hand written versions which don’t necessarily follow the new official sequence of page numbers of Budha Dal’s published Sarbloh Granth which has been in print since the year 2000. I just didn’t know which Page number this Shabad belonged to in the new official Budha Dal version of Sarbloh Granth. As for you trying to portray me as a “Ram Raiya†because I supposedly changed around the words makes me shake my head and crack a smile and wonder if you are just pretending to be this delusional?

Please look at the following picture of the Shabd I quoted in English:

quote1.JPG

As everyone can see, I did NOT change around, deduct or add any word or Tukh in this Shabad. I Romanized it exactly the way it was written in the original Gurmukhi script to the best of my abilities. Now I believe Lalleshwari here does owe me an apology.

Please note the second line in that Shabad

“Gur updesh, sikh prat bhashn, mudra trai, kach kesh kripanung|â€

This tukh has been quoted by Veer Amrit Bhaji of Amrit world on the following link:

http://www.amritworld.com/trai_mudra.html

If you scroll down you will see it.

Strangely enough, Bhai Vijaydeep Singh who now denies this Shabad even exists in Sarbloh Granth has quoted this very same line from that Shabad in the past. Vijaydeep Singh Jee, please check out the following link:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...sc&start=15

Where you wrote the following:

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am Post subject: terh mudra in sarbloh Granth

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

well as das told before here it comes.

Guru Updesh Sikhkhan Prati Bhashan,Mudrit Kuchchh Kes Kirpan.

(Sarbloh Granth,Budhdal Version Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860)

This litterary means

Preaching of Guru Spoken(Speech) towards Sikhs,Wearning Kuchchh,Kes Kirpan.

So clearly, as we can all see, two very distinguished members of Sikhawareness.com Bhai Amrit Bhaji and Bhai Vijaydeep Singh jee have quoted from this Shabad which only proves this Shabad does infact exist. Now that we know for certain that this Shabd does exist, your Zamir should awaken, and never even think of eating Maas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...