Sarbloh Guru Granth on meat /Banda Singh Bahudar.

[akaali]

how about u provide a source of where u got that shabad picture from. javanmard got his from sri sarbloh guru granth sahib steek published by baba santha singh ji, preety reliable.

[Guest Javanmard]

Vâhigurûjpikâkhâlsâ Vâhigurûjîkîfateh

Singh47 said he quoted from page 255 from Sarabloh Granth.

1. My earlier post showed that there was no such shabad and as proof I showed three pictures of page 255 from a pre-2000 one volume edition of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib. He now shows us a picture without saying where it comes from but one thing is sure: it isn't the Budha Dal recognised version of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib. And this is the only thing that counts and quoting false bani is blasphemy!

Just because two members mention it doesn't make it Sarabloh bani. And it seems that even one of these two now believes that this text that Singh47 quotes doesn't even exists... not very reliable is it?

Singh47's picture isn't from a manuscript (where on earth has he found a Sarabloh manuscript?) nor is it from the official Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib editions (be it pre- or post-2000).

2. So Human Rights Watch is not a reliable organisation now? In any case DDT announced it everywhere that they had killed Baljit Kaur. Who am I to contradict DDT?

3. Just because most sources were written by Muslims does it mean it didn't happen. And I did mention the names of non-Muslims too. Does that also mean Muslim sources lied about the Singhs' courage in the Misl period? Do Muslim sources lie when they describe the atrocities committed by Aurangzeb?

The sources are there, if Singh47 refuses to acknowledge them: his loss!!!

Banda "Bahadur" commited atrocities and Mata Sundari ordered the Khalsa to leave him. I follow my mother's command!

4. My friend is neither "imaginary" nor a a "childhood" friend. A very good friend from university, that's all

I have been asked to come back to this forum and so I did, after having left this forum last year when Guru Gobind Singh's wives were being insulted and after having been banned much earlier because a moderator's cousin cried because of a post I wrote (that's in forum's rules I think:"Don't make my cousin cry!"), I now leave this forum for good.

It's frustrating to get told by people "bhaji come back share your knowledge" and then see how people who call the Gurus 'pendus', post false bani and support terrorists (despite Babbar Khalsa and IYSF having been banned after 9/11) get away with it. My maryada forbids me to interact with the followers of Banda Bairagi, Ram Raias and the supporters of narimars (women killers)!

It seems that the fellowship of blood and land is more important than the brotherhood of faith.

Guru Rakha

[Guest]

Singh47 you must provide the sarbloh granth sahib details where you got the quotes from ? which year? who is written by? how did u get this bir?

If you like to continue this discussion otherwise this post will be locked.

[Singh47]

“1. My earlier post showed that there was no such shabad and as proof I showed three pictures of page 255 from a pre-2000 one volume edition of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib. He now shows us a picture without saying where it comes from but one thing is sure: it isn't the Budha Dal recognised version of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib. And this is the only thing that counts and quoting false bani is blasphemy!

Just because two members mention it doesn't make it Sarabloh bani. And it seems that even one of these two now believes that this text that Singh47 quotes doesn't even exists... not very reliable is it?

Singh47's picture isn't from a manuscript (where on earth has he found a Sarabloh manuscript?) nor is it from the official Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib editions (be it pre- or post-2000).â€

I never realized you would be so desperate that you would even deny the Bani of Sarbloh Granth as being false. Since you deny Bani, can I deduce that you are now a Ram Raiya? Because that is the new definition you coined for those who qualify as a “Ram Raiyaâ€. Two very respected members of this forum Bhai Amritpal Singh Jee and Bhai Vijaydeep Singh Jee both of whom are scholar in their own right have quoted from this Shabad. In fact Bhai Vijaydeep Singh Jee even goes further than me to even write under his quote the Version, Adhyay and Pad numbers:

Bhai Vijaydeep Singh writes:

Guru Updesh Sikhkhan Prati Bhashan,Mudrit Kuchchh Kes Kirpan.

(Sarbloh Granth,Budhdal Version Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860)

Since you seem to have a Sarbloh Granth, please have a look at “Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860†(Budhadal version) which according to Bhai Vijaydeep Singh jee you can find that Shabad.

If you want to deny Sarbloh Granth Bani simply because of your addiction to Maas then that is your choice.

“Just Just because two members mention it doesn't make it Sarabloh bani. And it seems that even one of these two now believes that this text that Singh47 quotes doesn't even exists... not very reliable is it?â€

Are you now saying that Bhai Amrit Pal Singh and Bhai Vijaydeep Singh Jee are liars? Did they just quote some false bani and present it as Sachi Bani? Are you questioning their integrity by hinting that they are liars? Perhaps Bhai Amrit Pal Singh Bhaji and Bhai Vijaydeep Singh can explain to you here why they would do the blasphemous act of what you deem as false bani.

“2. So Human Rights Watch is not a reliable organisation now? In any case DDT announced it everywhere that they had killed Baljit Kaur. Who am I to contradict DDT?â€

So out of thousands of pages of human right reports you find one itsi bitsi quote (From KP Gill’s website) against Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay and now you are trying to create a mountain out of a mole. Yet you do not even want to acknowledge thousands of cases human rights violations against the people of Punjab. If people of Punjab rise of in defence of their Quam they are branded as terrorists by the likes of KP Gill and Bahadur Singh aka lalleshwari.

Tum Karo Zulam, to woh Sarkari hai,

Hum Kareh Fariyaad, Toh woh Ghadari hai

“3. Just because most sources were written by Muslims does it mean it didn't happen. And I did mention the names of non-Muslims too. Does that also mean Muslim sources lied about the Singhs' courage in the Misl period? Do Muslim sources lie when they describe the atrocities committed by Aurangzeb?

The sources are there, if Singh47 refuses to acknowledge them: his loss!!!

Banda "Bahadur" commited atrocities and Mata Sundari ordered the Khalsa to leave him. I follow my mother's command!â€

How can you even call her your mother when you do not even acknowledge the Bani written by her blessed husband Guru Gobind Singh Jee? First learn to back up your lies by showing me non-Muslim but contemporary sources proving that Baba Banda Singh Bahadur killed innocent women and children, until then don’t insult our beloved Shaheeds by spreading unsubstantiated accusations about them. Baba Jee is a Amar Shaheed. He lived and died in the name of his master, Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

[Singh47]

N30 Singh, this particular picture I scanned was from a book, not a bir. I dont have a Sarbloh Granth Bir where I am living at. I can get a hold of the Buddhadal version to varify my claims soon. But for that I will need some time.

Also Bhai Vijay Deep Singh Jee who did have the Buddha Dal version writes that you can find that at “Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860†of the official buddhadal version of Sarbloh Granth. So if someone here can varify this, it would be great. Untill then I will need some time (few weeks maybe) to get my hands on a Buddha Dal version Sarbloh Granth.

I dont even know why Lalleshwari wants to leave. Just because two people do some vichaar and dont agree with one another doesn't have to end in one person leaving the forum. He should stay, personally I like reading his posts.

Forums are for discussion and debates. Not everyone agrees with one another Lalleshwari. So get over it.

[Guest Javanmard]

“Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860�

Apart from the fact that I have already posted that shabad as the two canned pictures from the two volume edition of Budha Dal I looked in the one volume bir of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib I have at home.

To prove that I actually have the official Budha Dal version of the text here you go:

and

Notice the Budha Dal seal and headings.

I then followed the instructions of Singh47 "please have a look at “Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860†(Budhadal version)". So I went to the index of the 5th adhyaya of bhag 3, and looked for pad 860 first:

So we agree as shown on the picture that pad 860 of adhyaya 5 bhag 3 entitled "aiso gun hari khalsahi..." is situated on page 666 of the one volume edition of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib of Budha Dal.

Now here it is:

and

And just to prove that I didn't take it from somewhere else pictures of page 666 in three parts. Picture a contains lines of picture b and picture ba contains lines of picture c (to prove that it's the same page):

a.

b.

c.

I followed Singh47's instructions and behold "Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860" really is the shabad I showed earlier. And yes the line that Singh47 quotes from his book (which one...) namely:

Kattorta, kucheelta, jaRta, kripnta, as ouch kul maas abhakhat maanung|

Is not contained in "Bhag 3,Adhyay 5th,Pad 860" of the Budha Dal Version of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib.

The pictures I have shown are the real shabad from Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib whilst Singh47's "text" is taken from an unknown book (no reference given unfortunately").

I think I don't need to add any further comments before I leave...

today is 6.6.06 and the shabad was on page 666 :twisted:

[akaali]

singh47, sure vijaydeep and amritpal singh have quoted that shabad, but not exaclty how u have written it with the Kul Maas Abhakhat Maanung part. Clearly that book , (which u havnt provided us with a name), is incorrect. There is an old saroop , not that old, only 100 years, in the Sikh National Archieves in my town, I could check it out on the weekend, but that will take some time. I have checked the steek of akali baba santha singh ji and javanmard is correct.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Bro Singh47,

forgive das for any misunderstadning but what das wanted to say was that page number was not OK and verses have ben brokne while it may have other meaning.

Even if you see Sarblho Granth of Budhadal version which is takne from Hajur Sahib Beer as per translator

you will be surpried to knwo another thing.

In Amrit Kirtan we have

Jab Lag Khalsa Rahi niara,Tab Lag Tej Diyon Mai Sara

Jab Eh Gaye Vipran Ki Reet,Mai nan Karon in Ki Parteet

is also not in Sarbloh Granth.

first line of this verse is from Mangal Prakash and Second line does not exisit and can be dervied as such.

Jab Lag Rahit Khalsa Niara,Tag Lag Deho Tej Mohi Sara

and after any verses in Mangal Praksah we have

Chhorh Shaster Vipran Ki Rees

Bhye Gati Inki im Tees.

Das may not be wrting exactly but thing here is both talk aomsthing in future what will happen to Panth.

It ends as Parbrahm Guru Nanak Sakhi.

Das any way requests sangat to explain the meaning of word KalamSaru,what does it means?

In Version of Bro Singh47 it is Uch Kul Mas Abhakat manang but in Budhadal version we have term Kalamsharu in there,What does it means as meani g of it is not in Budhadal version also.Kindly help das in it.

Das did read Nirankar Su Roop but in versdion of Brother Singh47 Ji it is Shiv Swaroop.

So kinldy do not lcok it and let us have more info.

[akaali]

id like to put a challenge out to singh47

provide me with sources , (it would have to be a comtemporary of banda 'singh') , that banda bahadur was a great sikh hero

[Beast]

didn't banda bahadur condemn onions as well as meat and bhang?

[akaali]

yup, i forget which granth, ill quote it properply tomorrow when im on my computer , but it says that when the Khhalsa Singhs wanted to reinitate Bandai followers, they served them meat , they said first eat this meat, break all ur false traditions, then come into the panth.

ill get the quote tomorrow

[challenge_everything]

singh47' mysterious book - I wonder when he'll tell the sangat what the book is!

[Singh47]

I mentioned earlier, I will need a few weeks to get my hands on a Sarbloh Granth of Budha dal to prove my case. So I will reply to that issue in a few weeks.

Akaali and Challenge everything Jee, the mysterious book is called Sikh Dharm tay Maas by Sangat Singh.

[Guest Javanmard]

Singh47 that was the Budha Dal version of Sarabloh Guru Granth I showed: there is no other one! Didn't you see the pictures?

Sangat Singh? My guess was right...an AKJ author. Why am I not surprised?

[akaali]

I mentioned earlier, I will need a few weeks to get my hands on a Sarbloh Granth of Budha dal to prove my case. So I will reply to that issue in a few weeks.

Akaali and Challenge everything Jee, the mysterious book is called Sikh Dharm tay Maas by Sangat Singh.

u havnt answered my question

provide me with sources , (it would have to be a comtemporary of banda 'singh') , that banda bahadur was a great sikh hero

[Singh47]

Lalleshwari, this Sangat Singh seems to be associated with the Taksal or some other related Sampradhaya as he seems to mention Taksal a few times and also doing Gurbani Arths according to Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee. He is not an AKJ author.

Akaali, if you want to see whether or not Baba Jee is a hero then just read how he got Shaheed. The man's skin was ripped to peaces by red hot pliers. After that his eyes were gouged out and tongue cut. Not to mention the way his Masoom son who was a mere child had his heart taken out of his chest right in front of Baba Jee and put into Baba Jee's mouth. He could have very well avoided going through all of this gruesome torture if he had only left Sikhi and accepted Islam. But he didn't because he had pledged his life to his Hazoor, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. He died a heroes death, the death of a Shaheed. If this isn’t proof of his greatness, then I don’t know what is.

Anyways, amongst mainstream Sikhs, he is a hero and it is an established fact he is a hero. So the burden of proof is not on us main stream Sikhs, but you guys who claim he killed thousands of innocent women and children. To date I have not seen a non-Muslim but contemtemporary source saying he killed thousands of women and children.

Anyway, I will be taking a break from this thread and reply about both the Sarbloh Granth issue and baba Banda Singh Baahadur issue in a few weeks because I don’t have my references with me at the place I’m staying at.

[Guest Javanmard]

1.You quoted fake bani from a cheap propaganda book (which is affiliated to AKJ), then when faced with the evidence that the fake bani you quoted was false you keep on saying you'll get a copy of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib even though pictures (posted by me) from it using YOUR instructions have clearly shown that what you quoted was fake bani.

2.On the same note you're unable to counter the accusations of at least 10 different Persian sources (let alone those based on eyewitnesses such as Prachin Panth Prakash) on Banda Bairagi's atrocities by presenting even just ONE contemporary source contradicting it. Then you have the nerve to say that even Sikh sources are corrupt. That's right now Rattan Singh Bhangu and Giani Gian Singh were on the RSS-Brahmin-Hindu-Congress-BJP-ShivSena-Shi'a payroll!

3.Regarding Banda Bairagi's death: what counts is what he's done during his life. A "glorious" Braveheart-type death doesn't take away the cries and blood of innocents. We all die one, what counts is what we have

achieved. In Banda Bairagi's case it seems Mata Sundari and the rest of the Khalsa of that time doesn't agree with you and your "mainstream Sikhs". Being "mainstream" doesn't mean one is right: millions of "mainstream" Germans voted to have Hitler in power....numbers don't count when it comes to Truth!

[Singh47]

You guys may have your last word here for now. But I will be back in a few weeks armed with references proving my case about Sarbloh Granth and Baba Banda Singh Bahadur.

[Guest Javanmard]

1. On Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib, let me be clear: you have lost! The pictures were taken from the two only editions of Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib recognised by Budha Dal. I have followed YOUR instructions, YOUR references and clearly shown that you quoted fake bani.

2. On Banda Bairagi even IF you find a contemporary source that proves that Banda Bairagi did NOT commit atrocities, the fact remains that it would:

a. be in minority (one source against at least a dozen others)

b. not in any way counter your own islamophobic bias that Muslim sources HAVE to be biased.

c. not explain why pre-Singh Sabha Sikh sources condemn Banda Bairagi.

That's assuming you read Persian or Braj of course and have access to manuscripts...

Good luck!

[unbreakable]

..

[Dynamic_Banda]

And please feel free to buy popcorn and hot dogs.. (vegitarian ones for you... muslims and vegis) at the foyer.

[shaheediyan]

The same source quoted by veer Javanmard also gives this instruction written by Banda Singh:

Deg O Teg O Fateh o nusrat bedirang

Yaft Az Nanak Guru Gobind Singh

The kettle and the sword (Symbols of charity and power), victory and blessing have been obtained from Guru Nanak-Gobind Singh. God is one! Victory to the Presence!! This is the order of Sri Sachcha Sahib (The great master) to the entire Khalsa. The Guru will protect you. Call upon the Guru's name. Your lives will be fruitful!. You are the Khalsa of the great immortal God. On seeing this letter, repair to the presence, wearing five arms. Observe the rules of conduct laid down for the Khalsa. Do not use Bhang, tobocco, Poppy, wine, or any other intoxicant...Commit no theft or adultery. We have brought Satyug (the golden age) Love one another. This is my wish. He who lives according to the rules of Khalsa shall be saved by the Guru.

Secondly, although I have not researched this topic, it does seem common sense to not quote the enemies version of history without providing a countering neutral or positvely biased source.

As we all know, propoganda has existed as a powerful tool in war for hundreds if not thousands of years.

This allegation (murdering innocents) seems no different to allegations of WMD made by US to justify their middle east dominance.

The enemy were terrified (see below), the men in power needed a different mechanism of giving their soldiers courage, nothing works better than the abuse of women and children.

I think that the topic should be stuck to, which is these allegations, whether Banda Singh acted independantly of the panth is another issue.

To cover 2 points (1 of forceful conversion and the other of reasons for propoganda (lies) - please read teh following:

"The wretched Nanak-worshipper (Banda Singh) had his camp in the town of Kalanaur (District Gurdaspur). He has promised and proclaimed: "I do not oppress the Muslims." Any muslim who approaches him, he fixes a daily allowance and wage, and looks after him. He has permitted them to recite khutba and namaz. As such five thousand Muslim have gathered round him.

The massive imperial force drove the Sikhs from Sirhind and other places to take shelter in the fort of Lohgarh in the hilly region. "It is impossible for me," says Khafi Khan a muslim historian of that time, "to describe the fight which followed. The Sikhs in ther faqir's dress struck terror into the hearts of the royal troops. The number of casualties among the latter was so large that for a time it appeared as if they were going to lose."

Vahe-Guru

[shaheediyan]

Sorry, I replied to a very earlier posting.... much more has been spoken of since, so the above kind of still applies.

There is a possibilty that the Sikh sources quoted by veer Javanmard may have taken the Persian sources as their points of reference.

We need to cross check both against each other for similarities (dates etc) to establish if this is true. Not to mention, that only the Mughal sources had actually written history concerning these claims, so the Sikh scholars of latter days would have refered to the only written sources available.

Possible, just my opinion, not fact based.

Vahe-Guru.

[Guest Javanmard]

1.Are you implying that Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu who actually based his accounts on his family's and other Sikhs' oral tradition was a liar? Rattan Singh Bhangu's grandfather was a contemporary eyewitness to Banda Bairagi's acts. Why on earth would Rattan Singh Bhangu confirm Persian sources? And he's not the only Sikh confirming them. So does Giani Gian Singh who also based his writings on the accounts of people who survived that period as he states himself. This is just basic historiography.

2. "Deg O Teg O Fateh o nusrat bedirang

Yaft Az Nanak Guru Gobind Singh" Was used by the Khalsa indeed but the rest you quote is fom Banda Bairagi's hukamnama. It starts with Fateh Darshan NOT Vahigurujikakhalsa Vahigurujikifateh!

You also forgot to mention that he forbids eating onions too. But coming from a Vaishava ascetic I am not too surprised...

3. Sources have been cross-checked. Why would Sikh sources describe Banda Bairagi as cruel unless it really happened?

4. Why can't any of the defenders of Banda Bairagi explain why Mata Sundari was against Banda Bairagi and issued Hukams against him? 8)

[akaali]

Mata Deevan Sahib Ji and Mata Sundari was agaisnt Banda 'Singh' so you say, where does it say this? I havnt heard this, please provide sources for sangat, be it panth prakhash, soorajj prakhash granth or anything else.

thank you jaavanmard sahib ji