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10 Questions on Sikhism From Muslims / Ex-Sikhs


sikhs2islam

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Are you muslims one or not? If you don't like something that we are supposed to ignore it?

Forget this, it is to do with Sunnies, forget that, it is to do with Shias, forget the other, it si to do with Sufies, seems rather a convenient way to dodge any questions.

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I am very sure that "sikhs2islam" is not an ex-sikh. He is from one of the Islamic fundamentalist group who have only one pupose in life - to visit other religious forums and disturb their peace of mind.Let's stop wasting our time in replying to him. They have dozens of sites in which they discuss and exchange information( tricks) on how to convert people from other religons. This guy's intellectual calibre doesn't deserve any response.

_____________________________________________________________

Bhaiyi Prapat Manukh de huriya- Gobind milan ki ehi teri baria.

Avar Kaaj tere kite na kaam Mil saadh sang bhaj keval naam

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I see you use the phrase “With the Qu’ran, no one is able to produce a chapter like the Qu’ran, THAT is the proof” THAT IS NO PROOF. Just read Sukhmani Sahib or Japji Sahib no one has or will produce anything like it again, THERE IS PROOF.

Why is that not proof? It IS proof when disbelievers in Islam are invited to challenge the Quran and Islams basis by asking people to try and make a chapter like it, and no-one can. Why don’t you produce a chapter like it and prove the Qu’ran wrong? BECAUSE YOU CANT.

With regards the SGGS, etc, for a start, the book provides no challenge to people to prove that it is not from God. However, the Gurus that wrote it do not provide any evidence at all that they were speaking from a divine source. What is so hard to understand, why should I just take your word for it that the Gurus are divine. Why don’t you PROVE to me that that the Gurus were divinely inspired.

You will not understand this, but the jyote of Guru Nanak Dev Ji resided in Guru Arjun Dev Ji so the testimony of Guru Arjun Dev Ji is TRUE.

Again, you have no evidence for this. I need proof.

I think you have pointed out your own flaw. Memorising is hardly a science. Repeat a phrase to someone and get him to repeat it to someone else and within just a few days your original phrase will have metamorphosed into something completely different. Now matter how careful you are, change/mutation is inevitable, hence the Quran can never be what it originally was.

So why is there no other version of it? Could it be because there are millions of Hafiz (memorisers) and have been Hafiz since the Quran was revealed? Therefore many correct the one erroneous reciter, ensuring its authenticity? Read Usul al Fiqh and the History of the Quran if you doubt me or visit http://www.answering-christianity.org/qura...tual-reply.html for more information

You say the written version is exactly the same as the me memorized version, how can you say that ? WHERE IS THE PROOF? HOW CAN THERE EVER BE PROOF? If one was memorised and the other written how are you ever going to get proof that they were the same as one was in somes head once he died it went with him. So, by your own chain of thought, the Quran is not the original as you can never prove it.

Because of the people around him, and not just one Bala, but thousands of Hafiz who were around when the Prophet(saw) died, Please see above.

Sorry mate on one hand you say that we only have Guru Arjun dev Ji’s testimony that the writing were of Guru Nanak dev Ji, YET here you say that Muhammad(sa) did not write any thing but had scribes. You cannot have it both ways. We only have your word that the scribes wrote down what Mohammad(saw) asked them to write, they could have written absolutely anything and Mohammad(saw) would never ever know.

No, because people had MEMORIZED the quran,just like the Prophet Muhammad(SAW). As some muslims COULD read , they would verify this together. The Writing of Scripture has always been secondary to the memorization.

This is a silly argument “The Qurans authenticity has never been in question by those with knowledge. “ So all of a sudden we are to believe THOSE IN THE KNOW, without any proof or authentication, just because they are ‘in the know’ then it is okay. No it is not. The Quran is full or contradictions, quite possibly due to everyone memorising and then later on trying to write it all down. The whole process is fraught with pitfalls. No serious scholar can ever take this seriously.

Where are the contradictions? Where are the errors? Do you know that one verse was revealed after another, between maybe 14 years on occasion, and it would merge seamlessly with the prior verse! How can this be if it is not from God? Why don’t you read the history of how the Quran was compiled, then come back and debate when you know what you are talking about. That’s what I mean by “Those in the know”, i.e., those who have done their research, which you clearly have not.

(How can God be in Excreta? Are you saying that God is? What does “God is Everywhere” mean? If you mean his Kingdom and Knowledge, yen I agree with you. If you mean he is Physically in things, then I disagree. )

A small analogy, a fish swims in the sea, other fish tell it that the sea, the water, is everywhere. It is in us, around us, is everywhere, on the seafloor, in the food we eat and the waste we excrete. But the little fish did not understand and would repeat “where is this water, I believe in on water”. It was when it got caught in a fish net and got dragged out on to the sea shore that the full knowledge of being separated from its life giving creator did it realise its folly. In the same way we also bask in our own glory and say where is God, and in he in excreta.

What are you talking about. This little allegory infers that :-

a) The fish was worshipping water

B) God was limited to Water

Well done. What a pointless story.

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MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU HERE.

I AM A UNIVERSITY GRADUATE WHO STUDIED ISLAM & SIKH RELIGION.

If you notice the SGGS explains and teaches love, there is no hatred no anger in it. It teaches only the right qualities that a human being needs to have.

Sad to say the Quran has verses against Kafirs & the Jews as well as the Christians. It in a ways potrays hatred towards others. Revenge and anger is what Quran seem to potray. I am not surprised that this is NOT Mohammed's teaching because the Quran was written many years after him. Therefore, the person who wrote the Quran wrote it based on the word of mouth, memories etc.

Mohammed was the messenger from Allah in a way; he could not have taught us human beings to hate each other, anger, kill etc. It is the people, people like you all out there who are extremist and fanatics who are creating this impression about muslims. Remember my dear friends, ISLAM means 'PEACE'. Please stop stooping so low and spoiling the image of the rest of our muslim friends because of your actions and words.

In the SGGS you will notice that respect is given to the different names of god whether its 'Allah', 'Ram' or 'Waheguru'. Infact in the SGGS, the word 'Allah' and 'Ram' appears much more times than the word 'Waheguru'.

SGGS teaches its disciples to treat all equally regardless of race, religion or gender. Thus even is a muslim is to clear-heartedly sit down and compare the Quran and the SGGS, he/she will realise the differences in both.

I have no intention to hurt anyone's feeling whether he is a Muslim or a Sikh BUT I believe a true Muslim/Sikh will take his time to compare the difference between both Holy Scriptures instead of pin-pointing at others. I am sure a English translated version of both can be found.

Khudahafiz

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MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU HERE.

I AM A UNIVERSITY GRADUATE WHO STUDIED ISLAM & SIKH RELIGION.

If you notice the SGGS explains and teaches love, there is no hatred no anger in it. It teaches only the right qualities that a human being needs to have.

Sad to say the Quran has verses against Kafirs & the Jews as well as the Christians. It in a ways potrays hatred towards others. Revenge and anger is what Quran seem to potray. I am not surprised that this is NOT Mohammed's teaching because the Quran was written many years after him. Therefore, the person who wrote the Quran wrote it based on the word of mouth, memories etc.

Mohammed was the messenger from Allah in a way; he could not have taught us human beings to hate each other, anger, kill etc. It is the people, people like you all out there who are extremist and fanatics who are creating this impression about muslims. Remember my dear friends, ISLAM means 'PEACE'. Please stop stooping so low and spoiling the image of the rest of our muslim friends because of your actions and words.

In the SGGS you will notice that respect is given to the different names of god whether its 'Allah', 'Ram' or 'Waheguru'. Infact in the SGGS, the word 'Allah' and 'Ram' appears much more times than the word 'Waheguru'. The SGGS was written when the guru was still around; in case you are unaware.

SGGS teaches its disciples to treat all equally regardless of race, religion or gender. Thus even is a muslim is to clear-heartedly sit down and compare the Quran and the SGGS, he/she will realise the differences in both.

I have no intention to hurt anyone's feeling whether he is a Muslim or a Sikh BUT I believe a true Muslim/Sikh will take his time to compare the difference between both Holy Scriptures instead of pin-pointing at others. I am sure a English translated version of both can be found.

Khudahafiz

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Why is that not proof? It IS proof when disbelievers in Islam are invited to challenge the Quran and Islams basis by asking people to try and make a chapter like it, and no-one can. Why don’t you produce a chapter like it and prove the Qu’ran wrong? BECAUSE YOU CANT.

it is only islamic propaganda that nobody can produce a chapter like quran.

tell me what is so special in quran.there are scientific errors.grammatical errors ,contradictictions in quran some of them which i posted but you choose to ignore it.as i earlier said why don't you just visit www.faithfreedom.org/forum and read debates yourself.many muslims have tried to debate with them BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE FAILED.IN YOUR

HEART YOU VERY WELL KNOW THAT YOU CAN'T DEFEND ISLAM .QURAN ON THAT SITE THAT'S WHY YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME ON THIS SIKH SITE.

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Gurfateh

Das will wait till Javanmard comes in sometime.Else das will beforced to put the matter provided to him by RSS people.

the starter of the thread is forcing das to commit sin.And his deeds will make Muslim lost some of thier very own Muslim frineds.

Why so mnay Muslim do not belive in Salih Muslim Hadith?If there is contradiction within Muslims about that then how can he preach us that.

In the same way there has been contrdiction withing Sikhs about Bhai Bala Janam Sakhi,nihungs call it cruopted by Hindalis,who crrupted it for the sake of let Islam fit in Hindus.As per that name of Rasol(SWAS) was Mahdev and Mohhamd is slang.And all wriitan in Arbeci laden with Farsi with Gurmukhi script.

First of all qoutes of Kuran he /she places mya be misinterpreted.

Second he does misinterpetaion of Gurbani

Third he gives highly disputed by Muslims themselves Salhia Musslim.

Fourth he wants to say that Bhai Bala Janam Sakhi revered Sikhs scritputre which is not authantic,while Sikhs say Nihungs and Missioanries also dispute the authanticiy of Bhai Bala Janam Sakhi(Pracheen Panth Prakash).

anyway Das challenges him to show das his Allah on 7th Sky,sitting on the thrwon held by angels.

If he has not seen then no need to preach.God of das is omni visible.But only choosen fortunate recoganise that by mercy of same God.If he wants to see that Amrit or Sikh baptism awaits him.And we will mix blood of swine in Amrit to convert him to Gurmat.

all historical records are here by litrature,oral traditons,culture or arecheology.As per him his things of Islam are OK but of Gurmat such proofs are not OK.Same Christians say for Muslims.

and all people fight.Is your Allah a Muslim?

Are not all elements of natire Muslims,including pigs,as per doctrine of Allah,they left heavan.

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it is only islamic propaganda that nobody can produce a chapter like quran.

tell me what is so special in quran.there are scientific errors.grammatical errors ,contradictictions in quran some of them which i posted but you choose to ignore it.

I didnt "ignore" them, i have about 4 discussions going on in this site at one time, I actually posted that I will respond to everyone just give me time. Its not easy to post 5 - 10000 words a day, run a website AND hold a fulltime job. As you've jumped the queue, i will respond to your "contradictions" today inshallah.

Also, why dont you read the history of compilation and memorisation that I posted the link to earlier?

as i earlier said why don't you just visit www.faithfreedom.org/forum and read debates yourself.many muslims have tried to debate with them BUT ALL OF THEM HAVE FAILED.

I recommend you visit http://www.answering-christianity.org , you will see all the refutations of Ali Sina and FaithFreedom on there. Those people are not sincere to the truth, they have edited and deleted my posts when it suits them.

IN YOUR

HEART YOU VERY WELL KNOW THAT YOU CAN'T DEFEND ISLAM .QURAN ON THAT SITE THAT'S WHY YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME ON THIS SIKH SITE.

Erm, no! Its BECAUSE i believe Islam is the truth that I can "waste my time" (as you put it) and debate Islam with everyone on this forum.

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(You haven’t done you research. Islam says the Baby died in a state of Fitra, and is guaranteed paradise.)

You did not answer the question. A baby is born, it breaths one breath and dies, explain.

(What are you talking about. This little allegory infers that :- a) The fish was worshipping water B) God was limited to Water Well done. What a pointless story. )

Pointless story only if you do not have the simple intellect to look beyond the literal at what is being said. It does not mean fish worship water, it does not mean God is limited to water, if you cannot transfer the example to what is being discussed then that is your problem.

(Why is that not proof? It IS proof when disbelievers in Islam are invited to challenge the Quran and Islams basis by asking people to try and make a chapter like it, and no-one can. Why don’t you produce a chapter like it and prove the Qu’ran wrong? BECAUSE YOU CANT. )

Sorry, I don’t mean to offend but this is THE most ridiculous thing I have heard.

Firstly I wouldn’t waste my time, secondly if I wrote the most perfect chapter who is going to judge it ? Will it be independently verified, will it be judged by an independent panel of judges, of course not, it will be judged by the Mullas, and what are they going to say, well there is no surprise there is it?

This is like asking if there is a baby more beautiful then your own (this is an example, not to be taken literally), it is never going to happen !!

Anyone even contemplating leaving islam is sentenced to death, you are hardly going to praise a chapter in challenge of the quran.

Anyway, I am going to leave you to your futile pursuit, I have better things to do then to argue who wrote the better chapter.

Again, I ask you : Does GOD love pigs.

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I recommend you visit http://www.answering-christianity.org , you will see all the refutations of Ali Sina and FaithFreedom on there. Those people are not sincere to the truth, they have edited and deleted my posts when it suits them.

to whom you are trying to fool me or others here.i am myself a member of that site and i have defended sikhism on that forum not even a single of my post is ever deleted or edited.there are many muslims on that site

who are defending islam there and there posts are never deleted unless they use very bad language so stop lying here.

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to whom you are trying to fool me or others here.i am myself a member of that site and i have defended sikhism on that forum not even a single of my post is ever deleted or edited.there are many muslims on that site

who are defending islam there and there posts are never deleted unless they use very bad language so stop lying here.

So someone called "Ali" never edited or deleted posts from Omar247 in November 2003?

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Gurfateh

Bismillah Al Rahman Al Raheem.

Islam Jindabad,Allah Ho Akbar.

das was able to contact Muslim Like himself,he was menitoning in past posts.

Das is Mualim who follows Shara as given by Ten Masters.We have whole class of Nanak Shahi Muslims in Pakistan as well as in India(say in Bihar).

Likewise in area near Baghdas rialway station,we have Sipleeds also,who are Muslims with First Master as thier Rahnumah(guide).

During the time of Gurus,they were refered as peer(elder/guide) by Muslims and there are version of Guru Granth Sahib by Baba Deep singh ji Arebic.

Should not das be deemed as Anti Islam due to interacting with hell worthy Wahabi,who may say that Rasool(SWAS) is like elder Brother.As for das Rasool, was one with Akal.

all are matter of faith and no one should try to do slander and non sense gimmickry.Allah will take care of such person on the day of Hashr.

As it happens that Muslim mayed targeted by so call muslim from other sects and it becomes intera faith matter.It seems here too,the same thing.

anyway one more question for S2I

If Israel detaches the Qibla or Sang E Aswad)from present place and place it say in USA,where should a Muslim like you pray?towards Mecca(without Qibla or say Sang E Aswad) or towards USA where Sang e Aswad is being kept?

This is the fundmental question about you kind of idolator pseudo Islam.so do Answer.

As Holy Kuran commands the monin to put in front the argument.

If you do not do this then you go against the command of God sorry The God(Al Ilah/Allah).

Allah Hafiz.

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SIKHS2ISLAM.. spend your time refuting your own bad deeds and praying for the blessings and mercy of allahs true and beautiful grace.. after all you are not gonna try and prove that just because your a muslim.. your infalliable ! are you.. ??

and if your falliable then you commit sins, and it is only through sticking to the great pillars of the wonderful religion you follow (islam) that you will negate the accounts of that fallibility on the day of judgment.

and non of those pillars involve converting..or preaching..

You are no imam, and you have no enlightment as if you had, you would convince us of the beuty of the quran and islam, through the wonderous 99 names of allah or through the grand praise of allahs beuty and bounty.. and win over our hearts by describing the beauty of the true beloved.

By making these so called educated pointers.. you wont prove anything to anyone, because face it, your textual references are crap and un researched, your points are as simple as the anti islamic crap you hear jews and chrisitians shout out.. such as the fallibility of the Prophet, the fallibility of the qu'ran (i.e. satanic verses, and use of classical arabic dialect specific to medina in several medinan verses) etc etc..

You can only whipe the stains off of someone elses shirt when your own hand is clean !

I know your kind, I know you think you have found the loop holes to break down the whole of sikh traditions and values and beliefs.. but face it, you know as well as I do.. each of your points also exist in Islam..

refering to other muslims as not true believers such as the shias, ismalis.. isnt really a convincing answer, as to be honest they have as much right if not more to islamic legitamacy and history as you believe you do.

So spend you time praising allah, and in that many more sikhs will listen and it will aid you on the day of judgment. may allah bless you and all of us with truth wisdom and his wonderous grace inshallah

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LOOKS LIKE SOMEONES TELLIN PORKIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, Guru Nanak never claimed to be a prophet in his lifetime.

correct, why did u not ask us why this is? a prophet is not a vehicle for the transmission of the holy word of god, a prophet is delivered a revelation from an intermediary in your case it was an angel called gabrielle, in sikhism the guru himself was the intermediary, but the vehicle is mere flesh. It is the word which is god.

However, if the scriptures of the Sikh religion are to be believed, he believed himself to be inspired from God, and to bring teachings of God. For example :-

why did you say "however" how can however be used in your first paragraph? forgive him god for he knows not what he says.

"Sikhs often claim that the Guru’s were merely teachers, or guides, and were not Prophets. "

learn the definition of guru yourself then instead of listening to heresay how does rumours support the basis of your argument that he was a flase prophet, how can someone who is not a prophet ever be proven false for they never made the claim in the first place, this is known as an oxymoron and you are known as just a moron!.

the rest of your paragraph goes on about the usual drivel of falsification you people are pathetic!

2. Are the Sikh Scriptures authentic?

" However, these scriptures can be proven to have no historical or authentic basis. " - u do know that you yourself fail to do this with SCRIPTURE!!!!

A. the Janamsakhi

not a scripture!!!!!

Sikhs claim that the Bhai Bala Janamsakhi was written by Bala Sandhu, a disciple of Guru Nanak. However, Guru Angad, the next Guru in succession, had never heard of Bala Sandhu.
- u got that from wikipedia

which janam sakhi are you referring to? there are many

In addition to this, Bala Sandhu is not mentioned by Bhai Gurdas. How can Guru Nanaks closest confidants and disciples not know Bala Sandhu?

i never mention my freinds to my family but my freinds are still very close to me does this mean they are an illlusion?

There are a number of other errors. For example, the rhythmic prose used in the verse was written by the third and fifth Guru’s, so how can this be present chronologically earlier?

how is that errouneous? i expect an aswer!, many raags existed before the gurus and people even though urged not to present shabads in ragas which are inappropriate, they even apply them to fancy tunes, does that mean that the janam sakhis cannot be metered to a raag later formed? janamsakhis are nt scipture they are however part of the sikh tradition as is this discussion on sikhism that you and me are having. And i am experiencing no revelation but that does not mean that i am not having this discussion.

Also, the language used was not even present in society for over 100 years after the death of Guru Nanak.

what language? the reason why i ask you is that you have really done no research youre an internet scholar. btw punjabi can be traced back to farid, the full accepted alpabet of gurumukhi was formulated by the second guru. but we consider gurumukhi to be seperate from punjabi.

How can it be that a divinely inspired work, detailing the life of the Guru, can be so inaccurate?

divine?

Guru Arjan slept on the floor!

oh my god thats sooo shocking but hang on why the exlamation mark? if a word is considered god then would u not rever it? i forget youve never had the same experience, an indirect revelation that was conjured in the hearts and minds of renegades 20 years after an illiterate wrote down what an angel dictated on a mountain dont compare to a book written from the pen of one who is attuned to the almighty constantly. BEAT THAT!!!!!

For this book to be the 11th Guru, the final way to God and scripture in its own right, surely it would have to be a perfect book, free from errors and contradictions?

enlightenement versus moral authority - being a path to god, we take the former u take the latter

However, we find that this is not the case. Some errors include :-

Teaching God to be “Sargun” (Possessing Attributes) and “Nargun” ( Possessing no Attributes).

Claims there is only one way to God, then says many ways

Reincarnation is taught in one section, yet is rejected elsewhere

How can it be that a Divinely inspired book, a Guru, a way to God, be so full of contradictions?

In addition to this, the Book provides no details of the origins of the Earth or of Man, and provides no answers to “where did we come from” as a result. Surely any divinely inspired text would present Gods answer to these questions?

done and dusted till i was exhausted go to the islamboard website there is a lenghty one on this, let me break it down foryou in simple terms, bliss is knowable vis subjective experience, it is inconceivable thus it i known as god, my god has a nature which is inconceivable to man but his word enlightens that which is inconceivable to man which is his soul, you have a soul you know u have a soul but no revelation can conceive this through description only through subjective experience ie gurshabad is for enlightenement not moral law etc.

How can the world be in decline

no decline, life is an opportunity for self realisation

, when spiritual karma is meant to increase and improve the world?

where did that come from? its about balance, a world of peace is a myth there has never been peace and there never will be.

What is the source for evil originally?

no evil just bad choices leading to negative experiences which snowball into madness.

Who was the original evildoer according to Sikhism, and which sent a perpetual evil through the earth, increasing its trials?

your allah sounds like a trouble causer if the devil exists. If he was all powerful like you claim he would have stoned the devil to death years ago but instead he ritualised for you people to do it so he could take a break till judgement day. Such a god had better face his own judgement on judgement day otherwise their is no justice.

There is no justice in re-incarnation,

meditate on this for a while "morality is not the path to paradise"

"Why are there more bodies on earth now, than there was before? Where do these new Souls emerge from? " prove it i say there was always this many people and the number are decreasing, we can see this as more and more species get extinct.

4. How can God be Omnipotent and within Evil?

u wud have to be stupid to believe in evil or good god, he creates the opportubity for both and dwells within all without distinction.

Firstly how can God be in everything? Would God be in Impure things such as Excreta?

yes even in pigs, dont be so lame.

How can God be within people and objects which are intrinsically evil?

now youre a xtian? we do not believe anyone is intrinsically evil all have a purpose, if a person were intrinsically evil then the purpose of your god to create a world were the moral path would lead to salvation would be prejudiced against those who are intrinsically evil.

How much tax should I pay in a Sikh State, as a Non-Sikh?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding testimony in a court?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding the sentence for stealing?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding the age of maturity?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding my relations with my neighbour?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding how I should treat an animal?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding lawful earnings?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding killing a non-Sikh and the punishment for that?

What is the ruling in Sikhism regarding riding a horse?

What is the ruling in Sikhism if I use a nuclear weapon?

Sikhism only covers prayer and religious obligations. It has no understanding of how to interact with the real world. It has no detailed economic system, social system, or ruling system.

modern world has seen the greatest progress ever made in humankinds history it has the best governence, yet it has also seen the greatest carnage, how do you reconcile this with islamic states which when ruled by islam produce zero and dont have much to contribute to the rest of the world. Then compare the livelihood and progress of the sikh nation who is free from all types of governance - self-determination is more powerful than any ruler or rules, it starts with 1 person and thats you!!!!!!!

Sikhism is not alone in this. There is no belief in the entire world, except Islam, that has the answers to problems that mankind encounter on a day to day basis. In Islam, the Qu’ranic verses on Society outnumber verses on individual worship many times over. In the hadith books, only 3 or 4 chapters relate to ibadaat ( individual worship ), whilst over 100 chapters in Bukhari relate to muamalaat ( societal transactions).

your laws are heinious and that was the politest word i could fathom.

Islam contains a complete ruling, economic, social and ritual system, applicable to all times and places because it is from the Creator, Allah (SWT), your God and my God.

and fails to deal with terrorism and generally increases suffering and poverty in the world, not to mention a death of conscience.

Examples of this include :-

The forceful passing of a resolution to cede Water and Electricity Boards to Punjab Control in the region

The murder of Indian Police officers in 1982 – 1983, in revenge

Bhindrandales Murder of two nirinkari Gurus in 1981

Bombing of Cinemas in Delhi in 2005

Bombing of Air India Flight 182

Most people will realise that these examples cited appear far from “Just”. Often, they appear to target civilians. If such action is justified according to these principles, then on what basis?

you really have not done much research have you youre selection seems to be whats recent in punjab rather than dharam yudh which you started the discussion on.

If the Gurus are false Prophets, the Scriptures inaccurate, and the concepts and precepts erroneous, then how can Sikhism be used to take life unjustly?

wow

7. How can God Create himself?

.

read my comment about bliss

8. Why can Sikh women not Divorce?

they do it is just not a formal ceremony, i hardly think saying something 3 times is ceremonious, candyman candyman ........

It is incredulous that anything calling itself “the modern religion” still does not emancipate women and give them independence.

oh please they hang women from cranes in iran cos they pinched the ayatollahs bum during friday prayers you hardly have a leg to stand on especially when its amputated.

9. How can Sikhs Claim that there are “many paths to God”, then he Punishes those whom do not adhere to Sikhism ?

and thereby this exposes a hierarchical system.

which discrimnates against none so whats ur point?

Quotations regarding this brotherhood include :-

Thereby, if we are to believe this Guru, and by proxy the beliefs of Sikhism itself, then God, through the Gurus, considered those persons inferior whom :-

Engage in Pilgrimages

Fasts

Worships Idols

Are thereby considered inferior in Gods eyes (according to the Gurus).

still dont discriminate, so wot do u people do in ur countries to non-muslims does youre scope of discrimination just end with suggesting the kafir is inferior or does it extend beyond thoughts?

In addition to this, those who eat meat, those that cut their hair, and many other tenets of Sikh faith that are violated, God will punish them through re-incarnation, even though these people are also following a path (as they perceive it ) to God.

u made this up

In Sikhs claims that there are “no chosen people”, why must people adhere to Sikhism to be saved? Why must they take the Khalsa ?

cos its the best but not chosen and defintely volutary and not forced.

10. Why is Sikhism Not Evangelical?

cos weve got our guru with us now we would only preach is we know longer were enlightened but its just too much cant get enuff, need to be around my guru and not on the streets paying people to follow my religion cos i got too much ego of hat my ancestors may have accomplished i wanna contribute today and forever.

No doubt this article has encouraged and enraged Sikhs in equal measure, however the lines of dialogue for both are open. Please contact Sikhstoislam@gmail.com if you wish to discuss any of the points raised in this.
:? :evil: :D :shock:
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correct, why did u not ask us why this is? a prophet is not a vehicle for the transmission of the holy word of god, a prophet is delivered a revelation from an intermediary in your case it was an angel called gabrielle, in sikhism the guru himself was the intermediary, but the vehicle is mere flesh. It is the word which is god.

A Prophet is a vehicle for transmission of Gods word to his own people, whereas the Prophet receives revelation through an Angel, owing to the words of God being too powerful for a human being, and Prophets are, ultimately, human beings. Where do I get this from? From the Qu’ran, which I rationally believe in ( as no-one can produce a chapter like the Qu’ran, or find contradictions, etc, etc issues already discussed ) , and therefore if I believe the Quran is the word of God, then EVERYTHING in it I also believe to be correct.

why did you say "however" how can however be used in your first paragraph? forgive him god for he knows not what he says.

I use however because I do not personally believe that the SGGS is from God. I have been asking for proof that it is from God on this forum for a few days now, and no-one has presented proof.

learn the definition of guru yourself then instead of listening to heresay how does rumours support the basis of your argument that he was a flase prophet, how can someone who is not a prophet ever be proven false for they never made the claim in the first place, this is known as an oxymoron and you are known as just a moron!.

Did you read my previous posts? If I am claming to speak on behalf of God, through divine inspiration, then I am claiming I am a Prophet. This is Linguistically and Semantically correct. If someone claims to speak on behalf of God, then I need proof to believe he is speaking on behalf of God before I believe him. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

u do know that you yourself fail to do this with SCRIPTURE!!!!

well why don’t you give me an example?

u got that from wikipedia

And “Sikhiwikiâ€. Why does it bother you that I use technology for my research? If it is on the internet and referenced, is this any less of a source? I have taken ALL my sources from Sikh sources.

i never mention my freinds to my family but my freinds are still very close to me does this mean they are an illlusion?

But im sure your family know your closest friends, do they not? They would certainly remember someone who was around with you for the latter part of your life, at your side at all times?

There are a number of other errors. For example, the rhythmic prose used in the verse was written by the third and fifth Guru’s, so how can this be present chronologically earlier?

Because it is meant to be divine inspiration, from the Gurus own mouth. How can I come along and revise the Shabad metrics if the original was perfect? Or Is Gods divine inspiration in need of revision?

what language? the reason why i ask you is that you have really done no research youre an internet scholar. btw punjabi can be traced back to farid, the full accepted alpabet of gurumukhi was formulated by the second guru. but we consider gurumukhi to be seperate from punjabi.

You haven’t done your research at all. Gurumukhi is the LITERATION, or the SCRIPT. It is NOT the language, it is not a separate language. This is why the SGGS contains different dialects, e.g. Sindhi, Brahman, etc. as well as Panjabi.

divine?

Yes divine, as in From God.

oh my god thats sooo shocking but hang on why the exlamation mark? if a word is considered god then would u not rever it?

I would revere the God that spoke them, I would not elevate the vessel (the book itself ) into a deity, an inanimate object whom deserves its own seat and coconut (As Gobind Singh gave the “11th Guru†).

i forget youve never had the same experience, an indirect revelation that was conjured in the hearts and minds of renegades 20 years after an illiterate wrote down what an angel dictated on a mountain dont compare to a book written from the pen of one who is attuned to the almighty constantly. BEAT THAT!!!!!

So are you saying the Gurus wrote the words, or a scribe wrote them? Can people make their minds up?

Also, the companions of the Prophet(saw) memorized the Quran as it was revealed. They even wrote down some of it in the Prophets lifetime. It was only when it was compiled, from the memory of over 200 hafiz, that it was in book form, unedited , unaltered from the time of the Prophets first revelation.

enlightenement versus moral authority - being a path to god, we take the former u take the latter

Surely Prophets are vicegerents on earth? They ARE the moral authority through their enlightened and belief in One God? Are the Five of the Golden Temple not also an authority?

done and dusted till i was exhausted go to the islamboard website there is a lenghty one on this, let me break it down foryou in simple terms, bliss is knowable vis subjective experience, it is inconceivable thus it i known as god, my god has a nature which is inconceivable to man but his word enlightens that which is inconceivable to man which is his soul, you have a soul you know u have a soul but no revelation can conceive this through description only through subjective experience ie gurshabad is for enlightenement not moral law etc.

A revelation can conceive this a soul, and inform you of a soul, and tell you what happens to a soul. It is not subjective if the revelation is authentic.

where did that come from? its about balance, a world of peace is a myth there has never been peace and there never will be.

I agree with you, there will be fighting between truth and falsehood until the day of judgement. I am discussing the concept of reincarnation, and demonstrating that as the world is more and more corrupt, where is the “good karma†coming round?

no evil just bad choices leading to negative experiences which snowball into madness.

But what is “bad� Do you mean bad luck, or bad moral behaviour? If bad moral behaviour, then is this not evil?

your allah sounds like a trouble causer if the devil exists. If he was all powerful like you claim he would have stoned the devil to death years ago but instead he ritualised for you people to do it so he could take a break till judgement day. Such a god had better face his own judgement on judgement day otherwise their is no justice.

My Allah is Your Allah. You interpret him differently, but . How can you question the purpose of what Allah has decided or this thought process? Is he not God and we his Servants?

prove it i say there was always this many people and the number are decreasing, we can see this as more and more species get extinct.

So where are the souls going? I was referring to the population of Human beings, however I will investigate for other lifeforms.

u wud have to be stupid to believe in evil or good god, he creates the opportubity for both and dwells within all without distinction.

I don’t disagree with that. I was saying how can he be in an “evil†human being ( or one who is making a bad moral choice ) , and thereby doing something bad?

yes even in pigs, dont be so lame.

Im not bothered about pigs. They are creation just as we are. However, they worship Allah all the time, whilst we sometimes deviate from the true path and are easily corruptible, myself included.

So you are saying God is in Impure things. On another tangent, as Pigs die, are you saying God dies, or a part of God Dies?

now youre a xtian? we do not believe anyone is intrinsically evil all have a purpose, if a person were intrinsically evil then the purpose of your god to create a world were the moral path would lead to salvation would be prejudiced against those who are intrinsically evil.

People become evil though, so much so that they will not listen or will not believe in anything, they have a deathwish and follow their own desires.

modern world has seen the greatest progress ever made in humankinds history it has the best governence, yet it has also seen the greatest carnage, how do you reconcile this with islamic states which when ruled by islam produce zero and dont have much to contribute to the rest of the world.

Muslims pretty much developed Algebra, Physics and Medicine from where they were stagnant in the 600-700AD, up to 1100AD where development stopped owing to infighting, then developed modern navy, gunpowder, etc, till this also stagnated owing to in-fighting and lack of purity of thought in 1700s. There are numerous Islamic achievements, because they united on an idea and believed in it, propelling humanity forward. This is similar to today where people (capitalists) believe on an idea, and this propels them forward to discovery. It is the ideology that causes the carnage.

Let me give you an example. The British in India built railways to move crops and stock from the hills to the coast, to steal and rape the resources of the country. Muslims built a railway to take people to hajj!

Then compare the livelihood and progress of the sikh nation who is free from all types of governance - self-determination is more powerful than any ruler or rules, it starts with 1 person and thats you!!!!!!!

But Sikhs are in the same position as the muslims at the moment. They have no state, no Islamic system of government, and therefore no implementation of their laws. However, when Sikhs eventually do establish a homeland, what would its laws actually be? At least muslims have a constitution to implement when a state is established.

and fails to deal with terrorism and generally increases suffering and poverty in the world, not to mention a death of conscience.

So why did it conquer 2/3rds of the known world in less than 100 years? Why did Jews fight alongside muslims against crusaders in Spain? Why was Andalusia, central asia, and the middle east a beacon of light to the dark ages? Its because it improved the life of people living under it, free from oppression where they received rights unknown at that time. Even the modern National Health Service is taken from the Islamic system.

Most people will realise that these examples cited appear far from “Justâ€. Often, they appear to target civilians. If such action is justified according to these principles, then on what basis?

Read it again. Its an open question, asking if this can be considered Dharam Yudh, and if not, why not?

Its not about ceremonious, its about whether Sikh Scripture ALLOWS it. If not, why not? If it is perfect and complete why does it not allow freedom to choose and de-choose a partner?

Oh yes, Iran that beacon of islam. Those Shias can do what they want, they are not an Islamic State. For the record , there is no Islamic state in the world today, because no country implements islam in totality.

Of course it does! If I cut my hair, which I am obligated to do according to Islam, then I am going against Guru. How is that many paths and ways to God when one religion contradicts the other?

There is no Islamic state in the world today, so I don’t know what you mean by “ur countriesâ€.

Did I? I will dig out the references.

Forced or not, they are considered superior to other Sikhs.

That’s very selfish, isn’t it?

It was to stimulate dialogue and debate, and all praises to God, it succeeded.

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Sikhs2Islam...

You use your faith and belief in the infallibility of the quran and its authority as a divinly revealed text as the basis of your arguments regarding Islam as superior..

However, here is the challenge to you, prove the infallibility of the quran without the use of the quran. After all you are asking us to believe and have faith in something which we do not hold as authoritive.

You expect us to believe that there are no contradiction in the quran, yet the quran is a text and the contradictions come from the interpretations of that text, hence you have so many orders within Islam.. so many sects and each killing one another. (sunnis and shias for example) I am not saying that this situation is universal to all muslims and islam.. however it does occur, now if the quran was so uncontradictory and authoritative then these variations within your own ummah would not occur.

You ask for references, yet the quran was standardised by the kalif, and many shias would hold that several verses had been missed out or altered by the kalif, this standardisation occured after the passing of the one supreme man the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) therefore who is to state the the kalif new what was the true quran, after all if you claim they were rightfully guided then by whom? If you state it was the angel Gabriel then that would make them a prophet too.. and we all know the the only rasool and seal of the prophets was Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)

So maybe they were rightfully guided by their life and experience as beloveds of the Prophet. However Shias would disagree saying they stole the leadership of the ummah from Imam Ali (sa) and many hadith vary on the good and bad deeds of the kalifs

Therefore we can conclude using only islamic history and viewpoints that the authoritiy of the quran even though its origins may have been divine is questionable due to its early history and compilation. In the hands of fallible men it could easily and in some cases had been altered.

Even Prophet Muhammed himself had made a mistake during the revalation of the quran, hence the satanic verses issue.

So your laws rules and regulations are all falliable as they are interpreted by fallible beings such as imams and ayatollahs.

I do not usually do the quote and refute style of replying to messages however I will make an exception in your case coz i love you so much brother :P

Where do I get this from? From the Qu’ran, which I rationally believe in ( as no-one can produce a chapter like the Qu’ran, or find contradictions, etc, etc issues already discussed ) , and therefore if I believe the Quran is the word of God, then EVERYTHING in it I also believe to be correct

I admire your faith however if you believe EVERYTHING then you should also be aware of the contradictions within the quran. As I mentioned above as well as here as some specific suras for you to investigate further

The quran uses the following verse to highlight the provisional aspect of God and uses this argument as a proof of Gods bounty.

Sura 16: 67

And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.

Now the above intoxicant refers to the use of wine, in this sura it is being used as a means to indicate that God provides for us all, this would show that wine is an acceptable subtance, as if it was evil would it not have been created by satan :twisted: . My Quran has a footnote on this verse it states "This verse was revealed before the prohibition of intoxicants." It alludes to the fact that there are both evil and good possibilities in certain things."

So even the commentator in this quran would agree that revelations would change and alter over time, some would over ride previous ones. I guess the surpeme coherent law of the quran wasnt so set and perfect but changed accordingly.

as we see in Sura 5: 90

O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, (sacrificing on) stone alters [to other than allah], and diving arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful

Now the quran states.. that intoxicants and gambling are the work of Satan.. so who is responsible according to the quran God in his bountiful grace who provided the grapes for the wine, or Satan who wants the believers to fail?

I do not personally believe that the SGGS is from God. I have been asking for proof that it is from God on this forum for a few days now, and no-one has presented proof.

In the same way as mentioned above with the kalifa arguments what proof do we have outside of the qurans own self authoritive claim that the quran is the word of God. ( i personally believe it is in its original context ) but these posts are in the name of dialogue and discource so please feel free to prove it..

Why do we believe the SGGS is from God, well everything is from God similar to the viewpoint of Sura 16, it is from the great bounty of God that everything exists, so why wouldnt the tree be from him from where the paper came, and why wouldnt the ink be from him.

And it is not the paper and ink which we respect and bow to, but the truth which is written upon it, just as the many muslims who do not bow to a rock in a square building, but bow down to the teachings of the Allah through the instructions from the quran and prophet.

As it says in the Guru Granth Sahib, Raah Malaar, ang 1291

Blessed is the paper, blessed is the pen, blessed is the inkwell, and blessed in the ink, Blessed is the writer, O Nanak, who writes the True Name.

without that true name its just ink and paper (still a part of God though :P)

tbc

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A Prophet is a vehicle for transmission of Gods word to his own people, whereas the Prophet receives revelation through an Angel, owing to the words of God being too powerful for a human being, and Prophets are, ultimately, human beings. Where do I get this from? From the Qu’ran, which I rationally believe in ( as no-one can produce a chapter like the Qu’ran, or find contradictions, etc, etc issues already discussed ) , and therefore if I believe the Quran is the word of God, then EVERYTHING in it I also believe to be correct.

so basically your saying that the words of god lose their power in transmission through an intermediary the angel is akin to a filter which can transmit the word of god in a form more digestible to a human being? no one can produce a chapter like it? this can be said of shakespeare too it a cocnocted proof.

I use however because I do not personally believe that the SGGS is from God. I have been asking for proof that it is from God on this forum for a few days now, and no-one has presented proof.

there is no objective proof for any of gods revelation the proof is in the pudding when you are enlightened you will know until then it is as you have said "personal opinion".

learn the definition of guru yourself then instead of listening to heresay how does rumours support the basis of your argument that he was a flase prophet, how can someone who is not a prophet ever be proven false for they never made the claim in the first place, this is known as an oxymoron and you are known as just a moron!.

Did you read my previous posts?

i read the first one there were none previous to that.

If I am claming to speak on behalf of God, through divine inspiration, then I am claiming I am a Prophet.

no, you are prophet if you claim to be revealed a revelation from an intermediary, guru nanak stated that the words came from his mouth from god no intermediary, he never claimed prophethood, the question is therefore why is it that you do not believe in a guru why is it that you settle for a prophet, you see how the argument turns on its head?

This is Linguistically and Semantically correct. If someone claims to speak on behalf of God, then I need proof to believe he is speaking on behalf of God before I believe him. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

because the purpose of revelation in sikhism is self-realisaton then what objective proo can there be other than enlightenment? why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

And “Sikhiwikiâ€. Why does it bother you that I use technology for my research? If it is on the internet and referenced, is this any less of a source? I have taken ALL my sources from Sikh sources.

its not that it is any less of a source, firstly there is no scholarary basis to the references you have used and secondly you use "contoversey" as the basisi of your inquisition of sikhism you have done no independant research.

But im sure your family know your closest friends, do they not? They would certainly remember someone who was around with you for the latter part of your life, at your side at all times?

not true, it depends my work colleagues dont meet my family, i never discuss work at home yet both are equally as important, and anyway i could just simply say no cos its an opinion to say "would or could and should".

Because it is meant to be divine inspiration, from the Gurus own mouth. How can I come along and revise the Shabad metrics if the original was perfect? Or Is Gods divine inspiration in need of revision?

janamsakhi is not revelation i said this in the previous post, how does reproduction of revelatory style question imperfectionality? are you fashioning your argument by virtue of the concocted "noone can produce a surah like it" argument? when a person becomes predictable then they are ruled by the 5 vices.

You haven’t done your research at all. Gurumukhi is the LITERATION, or the SCRIPT. It is NOT the language, it is not a separate language. This is why the SGGS contains different dialects, e.g. Sindhi, Brahman, etc. as well as Panjabi.

it is the words of the gurus mouth this is an independant language just because it hs other dialects in it does not mean that in revelation such a collaboration cannot be deemed a language, and anyway the guru gave the revelation in the language of the common man, the depth and breadth of the language reiterates the universal message of sikhi.

Yes divine, as in From God.

ahem, still not getting that janamsakhi is not divine are you?

I would revere the God that spoke them, I would not elevate the vessel (the book itself ) into a deity, an inanimate object whom deserves its own seat and coconut (As Gobind Singh gave the “11th Guru†).

this is a fundamental differences we believe the word is god, you believe the words are seperate from god suggesting the indirect nature of your revelaion is inherent in your practices when showing reverence to your scripture.

So are you saying the Gurus wrote the words, or a scribe wrote them? Can people make their minds up?

the gurus wrote them, and sometimes the gurus dictated them an actually school was set up to print copies of sggs by the guru himself. the original copies are still availible, usually bring them out on celebrations.

Also, the companions of the Prophet(saw) memorized the Quran as it was revealed. They even wrote down some of it in the Prophets lifetime. It was only when it was compiled, from the memory of over 200 hafiz, that it was in book form, unedited , unaltered from the time of the Prophets first revelation.

MEMORY!!!!!!!!!!!BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cannot compare dont even try.

They ARE the moral authority through their enlightened and belief in One God? Are the Five of the Golden Temple not also an authority?

and as we become enlightened by reading and singing the spiritual verses we will know whats right. yes panjpiare can make political decisions but not enforce them on society as such we cannot infringe on others also sikhi is a personal path.

A revelation can conceive this a soul, and inform you of a soul, and tell you what happens to a soul. It is not subjective if the revelation is authentic.

you give me opinion? this is why we will always stumble when discussing with "prophetic" religions.

I agree with you, there will be fighting between truth and falsehood until the day of judgement. I am discussing the concept of reincarnation, and demonstrating that as the world is more and more corrupt, where is the “good karma†coming round?

why good karma and why bad karma? why not ignore duality and say your will is sweet to me instead of wanting to satisfy the 5 vices?

But what is “bad� Do you mean bad luck, or bad moral behaviour? If bad moral behaviour, then is this not evil?

ruled by the 5 vices: kam krodh lobh moh ahankar.

How can you question the purpose of what Allah has decided or this thought process? Is he not God and we his Servants?

then why even debate or interpret any scripture?, am noy gods servan my guru was, i was put here to acheive a purpose which is my self, my god sends a servent to help me do this but does not expect anything from me it is for my evolution he is already there.

So where are the souls going? I was referring to the population of Human beings, however I will investigate for other lifeforms.

they are merging back in the ocean as they are acheiving the purpose.

I don’t disagree with that. I was saying how can he be in an “evil†human being ( or one who is making a bad moral choice ) , and thereby doing something bad?

the nature of god i beyond our current frame of reference, i say it possible to be in contradiction you ould say that is logically wrong therefore my god does not exist but you cannot prove it other than logic which is a human construct.

So you are saying God is in Impure things. On another tangent, as Pigs die, are you saying God dies, or a part of God Dies?

what part dies? the flesh dies and god lives within the decomposition but the soul is reincarnated. it can never be destroyed.

People become evil though, so much so that they will not listen or will not believe in anything, they have a deathwish and follow their own desires.

then they are controlled by the 5vices but those vices are not evil just part and parcel of this creation when we label someone as deviant they cannot rehabilitate society has been set up so we punish people rather than acknowledge "evil" as part of human experience, if "evil" were not supposed to be human then why does it exist? you will say the devil is behind this i will say it is a human virtue.

But Sikhs are in the same position as the muslims at the moment. They have no state, no Islamic system of government, and therefore no implementation of their laws. However, when Sikhs eventually do establish a homeland, what would its laws actually be? At least muslims have a constitution to implement when a state is established.

we do not believe in state rule, we belive in the sovereignity of man, man makes his own choices and works hard to make a living simple yet profound, the reason why i mention self-determination is because unlike what you have said previously we are not in the same position as muslims at all, were not waiting for a period of rule, our struggle is constant there is a famous quote and when i find it i will show you, basically it states sikhs arethe only religious people who have have ever created a nation in so short a time, a nation within nations!!!! - this is the only way to deal with problems in all flawed governance if we live amongst and under the law then when things go corrupt we can overthrow them its a perfect ideolgy, did u know the idea of the jedi is from sikhism?

So why did it conquer 2/3rds of the known world in less than 100 years? Why did Jews fight alongside muslims against crusaders in Spain? Why was Andalusia, central asia, and the middle east a beacon of light to the dark ages? Its because it improved the life of people living under it, free from oppression where they received rights unknown at that time. Even the modern National Health Service is taken from the Islamic system.

yes why did you CONQUER please tell us all then apologise to all the countries, what strategy did islam have when they were systematically uprooted from the lands they conquered? why did u lose all you had? i will tell you ego!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read it again. Its an open question, asking if this can be considered Dharam Yudh, and if not, why not?

akkh dee maar - kill by site, i dont need a book to tell me wots right.

Its not about ceremonious, its about whether Sikh Scripture ALLOWS it. If not, why not? If it is perfect and complete why does it not allow freedom to choose and de-choose a partner?

prohibition is not the basis of revelation in sikhism, the panth was created to make decisions on issues from their enlightened status, if prohibition does not exist then indivdual choice exists but as sikhs we learn from our mistakes and mould society with changing scenario, reality is not static.

Of course it does! If I cut my hair, which I am obligated to do according to Islam, then I am going against Guru. How is that many paths and ways to God when one religion contradicts the other?

no your confused, i said discrimante, if u cut your hair and your a muslim then you cut your hair and your a muslim, if your a baptised sikh and you cut your hair then you will receive tankhaa religious punishment, no discrimantion, now your next part refersto all pahs being to god, god creates sovereign doctrines and the rule of creation is that truth/god comes out with time, the truth within may take time to be revealed, the truth/god is revealed in creation more and more with time, in our religion we showed that muslim and hindu and sikh can all acheive enlightenement this is proved by the various bhagats and muslim saints who banis feature in the sggs.

There is no Islamic state in the world today, so I don’t know what you mean by “ur countriesâ€.

then sort your own probs out before proselytizing, how can we ever know the glory of a currently flawed project we dont give shit about spain or andalusia.

Forced or not, they are considered superior to other Sikhs.

they are consiered the ideal of sikh belief and they are the gurus roop.

That’s very selfish, isn’t it?

u love ur mom right will you share her with me, make sure your not selfish when u decide.

let me know,

indster :P

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continued...

But im sure your family know your closest friends, do they not? They would certainly remember someone who was around with you for the latter part of your life, at your side at all times?

This is a silly argument, there are many companions of the Prophet who are not mentioned in the quran, or in particular hadiths yet included in others as great companions of the Prophet. As well as the fact that friends and companions to one person may appear as enemies to another, such as some shia hadiths refering to the unpurity of Aisha,

Because it is meant to be divine inspiration, from the Gurus own mouth. How can I come along and revise the Shabad metrics if the original was perfect? Or Is Gods divine inspiration in need of revision?

Well this revision technique has been perfected in the quran and has been hillighted above with the wine references, the quran itself is a revision of the earlier books (torah, bible etc) and why do commentators of the quran hold the importance of knowing wether a verse was a meccan verse or a medinan verse, so that they can see which revelation is most relevant and up to date in the case of interpreting islamic law and rules. So I guess the divinly revealed quran was itself in need of many revisions.

Yes divine, as in From God.

yay.. we both agree that divine means from God.. :D may allah bless this great day when our two paths join as one to acknowledge the acceptance in the definition of the word divine.. :D

I would revere the God that spoke them, I would not elevate the vessel (the book itself ) into a deity, an inanimate object whom deserves its own seat and coconut (As Gobind Singh gave the “11th Guru†).

Yet you bow down to the direction of the Kabbah, wherever you are, irrespective of what evil comes between your head and the kabbah in mecca. I mean there could be a prostitute standing in the line of the bow, or a whore house, or a pub (especially in england ! ) but those things are not important the fact is your bowing in the general direction of the kabbah to indicate your submission to allah and the unity if the ummah (even though two minutes later some shia will shoot some sunni and vice versa). There is no form of idol worship in Islam, yet there is a form of idol hatred, the stonnig of the pillar during hajj which represents satan, well come on its a pillar a piece of rock.. not really satan now is it? yet its an integrated part of hajj, and hajj is a elevated part of any muslims life, you elevate the rock from which a man stood, i agree a perfect man .. but a man non the less, i have seen muslims kiss and bow to their quran, shia muslims keep a piece of karbala sand (in a small rock form) and bow their heads to it duing prayer. Shias elevate the practice of mahtam during ashura. the list could go on and on, the only factor which unites all this elevation is that each person does it not to elevate the innanimate object they perform their action towards but as a bond between them and their love for God. As a physical symbol of their faith and beliefs. It not black and white, its not idol worship, its just each persons form of spirituality and faith, wether they muslims sikhs hindu jew whatever.

So are you saying the Gurus wrote the words, or a scribe wrote them? Can people make their minds up?

Also, the companions of the Prophet(saw) memorized the Quran as it was revealed. They even wrote down some of it in the Prophets lifetime. It was only when it was compiled, from the memory of over 200 hafiz, that it was in book form, unedited , unaltered from the time of the Prophets first revelation.

its not important who wrote the words the fact is that Guru Granth Sahib was wrote in the presence of the Guru, whereas the quran was only partially compilled in the presence of Prophet Muhammed,

also the so called amazing memory of the arabs, is a myth, just as there are dialect variations from one arab tribe to another their pronounciation and recollection of the quran was also influenced and varied by their tribal backgrounds. The fact is that the reason the caliph had decided to bring togther a uniform version of the quran was to eradicate the further degradation of the quranic verses, those muslims who had heard early revelations from the prophet during his mecca days, may not have all travelled with him all the time, and therefore may have missed the later revelations, also those who had travelled far and wide as most of the arabs were traders would have only heard parts of the revelations and then moved on. This then led to many versions of the early quran some with grammatical and dialect variations others with completely different messages, this pushed the caliph towards standardising the quran, (this was not the decision of the Prophet) and this was also done at a time where the succession to the prophet (as leader of the ummah not prophet) was causing alot of political pressures, troubles and alliances throughout the ummah - such as the civil war in islam.. the attack led by aisha on Imam Ali (as) the battle of the camel occured a few years after! It is also worth noting that if sikhiwiki is a valid research tool then according to wikipedia Uthman had also demanded that all other variations of the quran other then the standardised version be destroyed (guess thats proof the variations existed) now its a matter of how much you believe uthman was rightfully guided in how valid and unaltered his interpretation and comissioned version of the quran is.

It would appear the validity of the quran is no longer in the hands of the messenger of allah (the prophet had died by this time) but in the hands of a clans man of the prophet, who the ummah at that time was divided against accepting his authority ! (the shia sunni division)

I agree with you, there will be fighting between truth and falsehood until the day of judgement. I am discussing the concept of reincarnation, and demonstrating that as the world is more and more corrupt, where is the “good karma†coming round?

When the world was in Jahaliiya what was it which pushed God to send his messenger and reveal to the believers the true path and with it free them from the dark age of ignorance?

If it was the grace and compassion of the great God, then the "good karma" will also come from the grace and compassion of Allah.

The cycle of karma and reincarnation is not a black and white cycle all karma can be eradicated and the cycle broken, then there is no good or bad karma.. :P

Then again on the day of judgment when we all rise to be judged for our good or bad deeds, is this not the same principles as karma ? one states it happens everytime you die, the other states it happens once.

After the judgment there is hellfire or heaven, for the sikhs after judgment there is an existance of hellfire within that life (bad life) or heaven within that life (maybe be reborn as a good muslim and get to go to heaven :P)

karma is just a small piece of a big cake the most important thing is to pray and do that which pleases allah, wether there are rewards such as heaven or not.

But what is “bad� Do you mean bad luck, or bad moral behaviour? If bad moral behaviour, then is this not evil?

as i mentioned in my previous post on the verses regarding satan and wine and allah. My interpretation of Sura 16, is that there is good and bad, even evil things.. but all are created by God, governed by God and exist because of God, Satan is evil because God wants him to be, if Satan was able to become evil without the knowledge of God then satan was able to act beyond the governance of God, he eists as an alternative as powerful as God.. and that to me is shirk.. So I guess if allah is the almighty then all is according to his will even the evil things, hence we can be bad and even evil and we will be judged as so, but this is not an alternative existance to that which is governed by God.

So we are not concerned about the evil doers etc, we are only concerned with pleasing the lord as he desires it and by his grace. And if we begin to spiral into the evil side of things then we pray to God to free us from that web, as it will only lead to us becoming ignorant of our lord, (returning to a state of Jahaliiya)

So where are the souls going? I was referring to the population of Human beings, however I will investigate for other lifeforms.

Souls arnt going anywhere, that would be like watching water evaporate and asking where has the water gone, just because it no longer exists (visuallly) it does not mean it has gone just transformed, and when that is condensed it reforms as a droplet, and may be soaked up into a form ( a plant, tree, in my mouth while i look upwards with my tongue out) it travels from one form to another, sometimes visibile somtimes not. If its so easy to believe with water then why not accept the same for the soul?

So you are saying God is in Impure things. On another tangent, as Pigs die, are you saying God dies, or a part of God Dies?

When a pig dies the pig died, much like when you take your trousers off your legs dont come off too ? (or do they coz that would be so funny)

The form has gone, and died, the God inside it, is still there, because it wasnt attached to the form rather just prevailing everywhere including inside that form, abit like air existing everywhere as well as inside us, (but not like air as a physical molecule which can be extracted or isolated etc). I can not explain what God is, just keep saying no its not that.. lol.. If I could explain what God is in totality then I would be .. amazing !

But Sikhs are in the same position as the muslims at the moment. They have no state, no Islamic system of government, and therefore no implementation of their laws. However, when Sikhs eventually do establish a homeland, what would its laws actually be? At least muslims have a constitution to implement when a state is established.

Good question.. I too would like to know the answer to that :) when the sikhs ruled Punjab the constitution was kinda cool, loads of happy religious tolerance and integration. and loads of good ol' punjabi infighting :D

There have been islamic nations and islamic states, they just havnt been able to unite under one banner, even with the constituion in place.. everyones interpretations are different there is no such thing as one islam, or even one sikhi, the only thing which is truelly one .. is God.

Oh yes, Iran that beacon of islam. Those Shias can do what they want, they are not an Islamic State. For the record , there is no Islamic state in the world today, because no country implements islam in totality.

Its also because no muslim implement Islam in totality, if they did they would spend their time praying and improving themselves insted of attempting to reassure themselves of their own high standing by attempting to find faults in others. :P

alright this is getting long, so inshallah I will continue some other time.. I am not avoiding any points I just feel there is enough here for discussion purposes, however if you feel I have missed something important or particular or am avoiding something then please let me know, so we can further discuss those points.

I sincerly hope I have not offended anyone,

The version of the quran I used for reference, is

The Qur'an Arabic Text with corresponding Enlgihs meanings.

AbulQasim Publishing House, 1997

Provided from Al-Muntada Al-Islami

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Dynamic Banda :-

You use your faith and belief in the infallibility of the quran and its authority as a divinly revealed text as the basis of your arguments regarding Islam as superior. However, here is the challenge to you, prove the infallibility of the quran without the use of the quran. After all you are asking us to believe and have faith in something which we do not hold as authoritive.

The divinity of the Quran can be proved through the rational and intellectual mind. In science, you have a hypothesis, for example “I believe that liquid becomes gas when heatedâ€. I test this hypothesis. I find that all liquids when heated, indeed do become gas, albeit at different temperatures, and therefore I can now state as fact that All Liquids, when heated, become Gas. To make this statement false, I need to find a liquid that when heated, does not turn to gas, upon which I will go back to the drawing board, and come up with a new hypothesis.

In the same way, the Quran presents a hypothesis , “This book is from Godâ€. It provides a set of rules to establish whether this is indeed correct (E.g. Produce a Chapter like the Quran ). I am unable to do it, in fact NO-ONE is able to do it, therefore I can say conclusively, until evidence is made available to the rational mind to prove otherwise, that the Qu’ran is a divine source. Therefore, logically everything in the qu’ran is from God, the rules are correct, salvation is through the commandments, etc, etc.

You expect us to believe that there are no contradiction in the quran, yet the quran is a text and the contradictions come from the interpretations of that text, hence you have so many orders within Islam.. so many sects and each killing one another. (sunnis and shias for example) I am not saying that this situation is universal to all muslims and islam.. however it does occur, now if the quran was so uncontradictory and authoritative then these variations within your own ummah would not occur.

There are no contradictions in the Qu’ran. However, there are disputes over Ijtihad, which is using texts available and applying them to the current reality. For example, can the Verse “Those who do not rule by what Allah Revealed are Disbelieversâ€, be applied to a UK muslim police officer? That is the dispute, there is never a dispute over the Qu’ran in isolation when debating and discussing a principle. It is always a dispute over how it applies in reality, of which God has provided the answer to this as well “If there arise amongst you disputes, refer to Allah and his Messengerâ€.

You ask for references, yet the quran was standardised by the kalif

The verses were never altered, the standardization was the pronounciation and dialect of the quran, not the quranic verses themselves. For example, an American will say AH-LOO-MIN-UM, whereas a brit will say ALU-MIN-IUM…same word, different pronounciation.

and many shias would hold that several verses had been missed out or altered by the kalif, this standardisation occured after the passing of the one supreme man the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) therefore who is to state the the kalif new what was the true quran, after all if you claim they were rightfully guided then by whom?

The Shia only began to claim that they had “missing versesâ€, after Yezid, for political gain. If they have these missing verses, then let them present them. They do not, they believe therefore that Allahs word and promise (“I will preserve this book†) has not been honoured, and therefore they believe that the deen is incomplete, making them kuffar.

Please, I am a muslim from Ahle-Sunnah-Wa-Jammat, do not bring shia into this, in the same way I would not bring Collaborator Sikh arguments into an equation when discussing with you.

If you state it was the angel Gabriel then that would make them a prophet too.. and we all know the the only rasool and seal of the prophets was Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)

There were many messengers. Gabriel is an Angel.

So maybe they were rightfully guided by their life and experience as beloveds of the Prophet. However Shias would disagree saying they stole the leadership of the ummah from Imam Ali (sa) and many hadith vary on the good and bad deeds of the kalifs

Again, forget the shia, they are a disbelieving sect. How can they accuse Abu bakr and Umar of stealing the Khilafah! Its ridiculous

Even Prophet Muhammed himself had made a mistake during the revalation of the quran, hence the satanic verses issue.

This was discussed in an earlier thread. If the prophet is masoom, how can God allow him to be swayed by the devil? If he is the best example to follow, and is free from error after achieving prophethood, how can he be possessed? Its non-sensical.

I admire your faith however if you believe EVERYTHING then you should also be aware of the contradictions within the quran. As I mentioned above as well as here as some specific suras for you to investigate further

There are no contradictions, but here we go anyway….

Sura 16: 67

And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.

This verse, and the one before it, indicate the bounties that can come from the smallest things into things of sustenance and rizq. You have taken the Verse and answered the question yourself. It was revealed before prohibition of alcohol. Allah(Swt) provides tests for us all. Pigs are not evil, but we are not allowed to eat them. Do I say this is a contradiction? Of course not.

So even the commentator in this quran would agree that revelations would change and alter over time, some would over ride previous ones. I guess the surpeme coherent law of the quran wasnt so set and perfect but changed accordingly.

Yes revelation abrogates and is changed, but only by those in authority, i.e. Prophets who are acting with permission of Allah(swt) to communicate to the people. For example, initially muslims were told to pray towards Jerusalem, but then the verse came to change direction of the Qibla. Also, previous generations were allowed to drink. It was not prohibited by Moses, Noah,or before. The reason for the Change? Allah knows best.

Why do we believe the SGGS is from God, well everything is from God similar to the viewpoint of Sura 16, it is from the great bounty of God that everything exists, so why wouldnt the tree be from him from where the paper came, and why wouldnt the ink be from him.

We are back full circle though, How do I KNOW the SGGS is from God? How can I be sure? What is the Hypothesis? How can I test it?

I look forward to hearing from you.

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islam in all your posts you are asking for proof.

i have a simple question to you just like scientists have pooved existence of atoms and molecules can islam proove the existence of god and jinns to the scientific world and atheists.i don't need any islamic propaganda that some scientists converted to islam and so and so.i want a reply to you is the whole scientific world and all the atheists are to accept the existence of god and jinns.

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