something controversial

[Guest Javanmard]

Cool. That's quite amazing. WOW

[dhan96Crore]

John what the hell are you talking about?

When did disrespect any muslim prophet?

There have been many muslims, muslim saints pirs etc in the past who i respect.

John and to be honest with you you really need to get your facts right, i have never done nindiya of any prophet, peer, faqeer etc etc in my life, so john you need to gewt your head out of your ass and understand that.

[Guest Javanmard]

You haven't maybe but your Sant did by claiming that our Prophet (pbuh) was inspired by Satan. By doing that he implied that Bhagat Farid (ra) was mislead. I respected him until now but my love for truth and gurbani is stronger than my love for people. He committed blasphemy which is quite a serious issue. Dhan6crore and people like him are the ones that drive Muslim Nanakshahis out of the Panth. But I won't give him that pleasure.

[John]

Yep thats it just use the same insults that I do, how very original, for yoru information you carry on these insults about Muslims beating their chest and carry on mocking peoples beliefs of not eating pork, you fool, the Muslims saints that were companions of the Satgurus, are very very likely to have carried out these actions!!!

So much for Khalistan..

And atleast you didnt comment on bashing your bishop, is that your only favourite pass time event?

[dhan96Crore]

Seriously why would i want to get people out of the panth?

thats blasphemy! I am just defending Sant ji just because he says something that does not please you does not mean you can disrespect him, me drive people out of the panth? You are crazy i would never dream of such an evil act.

[John]

Then shut up and stop letting faeces come out of your mouth...its idiotic people such as you that put people off the Panth!!!

[Guest Javanmard]

John just ignore him. And for the last time: Your sant insulted my Prophet (pbuh), Bhai Mardana's Prophet, Bhagat Farid's Prophet, Pir Buddhu Shah's Prophet, Pir Bhikhan Shah's Prophet and Sayyid Inayat Ali's Prophet. At the time when Guru Gobind Singh needed help we protected him in the Machivara forest, yes we the Shi'a. Your sant has insulted all these bhagats of Maharaj by insulting the Prophet (pbuh) by claiming he was inspired by Satan.

[kaur-uk]

so who reckons that imam mehdi, kalki avtaar, jesus, jarnail singh bhindrawala and satguru ram singh will come back at the same time? i think th end is nigh...it needs to happen soon...we are all in a shambles....

[chatanga]

Sant Jarnail SIngh Bhindranwale, and Bhai Ram Singh....hmmmm, there maybe was a time when many poeple thought these two mahapurkhs would return but I personally dont think that either of these two are gonna return, as we expect them to return, but maybe in the army of the Khalsa that wil establish khalsa raj on the world as told in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib.

[shaheediyan]

Kaur-uk, LOL, that's the most cognizant comment I've heard on this forum in the last few days! Well done!!

These discussions are a perfect example of hysterical contagion. I haven't heard such repungant talk in a long time.

No one so hypocritical, angry, egotistical and speaking such filth, can be called a Singh of the the 10th Master.

Ghetto Sikhi has definately arrived.

[Guest Javanmard]

Well according to me our Gurus and the Imams and Prophets come from the same light. When Imam Mahdi (fta) comes back he will be perceived by different religions as their awaited saviour and people will realise they had been waiting for the same person. In the hadiths Imam Mahdi (fta) will reveal the truth behind all revealed religions and show their inherent unity. Guru Nanak's mission was I believe to prepare humanity for that moment because gurbani is exactly that. Such a shame that after Guru Gobind Singh things turned the wrong way. But that happens to almost all religious traditions.

[drawrof]

Guys, on another note. I do suggest people read some of the books the Javanmard has mentioned. I am only saying that because certain concepts of the constructs/approaches to god are laid out and it is really an excercise in itself. I am not saying.."I see the light, hallelujah", but I am saying...buy the books, read them...and if nothing else, you can argue point for point.

[Kam1825]

Quick question Javanmard, i know the Shia sect who accept the 12ers await for the return for Imam Mahdi. Is this also the belief of the 5ers, the Ismaili groups who believe in 7 imams, the ismaili groups that believe in 21 Imams and B'ahai's?

[Guest Javanmard]

1. The Ismailis believe in a living Imam but his predecessors paid allegiance to the 12er line. But this matter is quite secretive.

2. Bahai's believe Imam Mahdi has already arrived as Bahaullah. But the raja' of Imam Mahdi requires certain signs which Bahaullah didn't fulfill.

[Kam1825]

thank you, i will start digging further for personal reading

[dhan96Crore]

Maharaj dasam pita has also described mehdi mir and what happens when he does reveal himself on earth in Sri Dasam Granth as follows:

'Mehdi Mir was created, who was very angry and persistent one; he killed the Kalki incarnation within himself again,

Those who conquered, the made it there possession they are all under the control of KAL (death) in the end; in this way, with complete improvement the description of twenty-fourth incarnation is completed,

In the way, destroying him, the age of the truth was manifested; the whole of Iron Age had passed away and the light manifested itself everywhere consistently,

Then Mir Mehdi, conquering the whole world, was filled with pride; he also got the canopy swung over his head and caused the whole world to bow at his feet,

Expect himself, he did not have faith in anyone; he who did not comprehend One Lord-God, he ultimately could not save himself from KAL(death),

There is not one other in all colours and forms except one God; he, who has not recognized that one Lord, he wasted his birth,

Expect that one Lord, there is none other in water, on plain and all the places; he who had not recognized the One Reality, he only roamed away amongst the Yogis,

He who leaving the one, believed in another one, in my view, he is devoid of wisdom; he will be surrounded by suffering, hunger, thirst and anxiety throughout day and night,

he will never get peace and will always be surrounded by ailments; he will always suffer death on account of suffering and hunger; he will always remain restless,

The leprosy will prevail in his body and all his body will rot; his body will not remain health and his foundness for sons and grandson will always afflict him,

His family will be destroyed and at the and, his body will not be redeemed also; he will always be engrossed in disease and sorrow; ultimately, he will die the death of a dog,

Reflecting over the egoistic state of Mir Mehdi the Unmanifested Brahman thought of killing him; he created an insect, which entered the ear of Mir Mehdi,

Entering his ear, that insect conquered that base fellow, and giving him various types of suffering, killed him in this way'.

So its clear that mehdi mir does come after kalki avataar rules the earth for along time but again like the many other avataars mehdi mir falls into the trap of the great hankaar.

Remember khalsa ji we do not need to wait for anyone to come and 'save' us as our Guru Satguru Guru Sahib Ji maharaj is here, its just we need to take this advantage we have been blessed with of Gurbani. The shabad will save us.

But there is no denying khalsa ji dasam pita will always send his purest khalsa singhs to help the panth when it is needed, there is no doubt there.

[Guest Javanmard]

Again Mir Mahdi is not our Imam Mahdi (fta) the description you give and the name you give do not correspond to our traditions about Imam Mahdi (fta). You're wasting your time. Guru Gobind Singh makes a difference between Imam Mahdi (fta) and Mir Mehdi who is an impostor. In Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib he has written a whole hymn in praise of Imam Mahdi (fta) who is also called by us al Qayim, the Ressurector.The term Qayim is only used for Imam Mahdi (fta).

Rag Tilang

maula mâlak miharbân mîr malak maulânâ

qâyim qâdar qadardân kâmal panah subhânâ

dânâ dâyam dard mand dil dânash mardânâ

rahimâ râzaq rahim kun haq hâdî rahimâna

Maula is the title of Imam Ali (as) ad the other Imams and Qayim is only ever used for Imam Mahdi (fta).

And this hymn in clearly in praise of Imam Mahdi (fta) for Guru Gobind Singh never claimed to the Qayim.

[dhan96Crore]

Is it your personal view that these two are not the same? because there have been various singhs of the past and present who claim that there is only one of them and maharaj is talking about the Imam Mahdi you talk about who is known as mehdi mir Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. I say this due to the following reasons:

'Mehdi Mir was created, who was very angry and persistent one; he killed the Kalki incarnation within himself again'

Only some one with great power can kill some one of the calibre of Kalki avataar the 24th Vishnu. Mehdi mir is the one who shia muslims are waiting for as mehdi mir does conquer the whole world.

'In the way, destroying him, the age of the truth was manifested; the whole of Iron Age had passed away and the light manifested itself everywhere consistently'

Your telling me that this mehdi mir after killing kalki avataar estabilshes satjug again is not the same as Imam mahdi? It is also clear in muslim texts, the hadeeths that when mehdi mir does come after he has won his battles there will be a 'peace' period of at least 7 years, where knowbody will even argue with each other let alone fight!

'and the light manifested itself everywhere consistently'

Only powerful souls can achieve such a thing, this clealry indicates the start of satjug, i do not think a 'imposter' could achieve such great heights.

'Then Mir Mehdi, conquering the whole world, was filled with pride; he also got the canopy swung over his head and caused the whole world to bow at his feet'

It is clear that mehdi mir achieves his goal by conquering the whole world after killing kalki avataar, and by this the whole world will respect him for what he does.

'Expect himself, he did not have faith in anyone; he who did not comprehend One Lord-God, he ultimately could not save himself from KAL(death),'

And while he has his rule over the world it seems as ego gets the better of him to which he forgets the one who sent him and created him.

'There is not one other in all colours and forms except one God; he, who has not recognized that one Lord, he wasted his birth,

Expect that one Lord, there is none other in water, on plain and all the places; he who had not recognized the One Reality, he only roamed away amongst the Yogis,'

Maharaj's Nimrata

'He who leaving the one, believed in another one, in my view, he is devoid of wisdom; he will be surrounded by suffering, hunger, thirst and anxiety throughout day and night,

he will never get peace and will always be surrounded by ailments; he will always suffer death on account of suffering and hunger; he will always remain restless,

The leprosy will prevail in his body and all his body will rot; his body will not remain health and his foundness for sons and grandson will always afflict him,

His family will be destroyed and at the and, his body will not be redeemed also; he will always be engrossed in disease and sorrow; ultimately, he will die the death of a dog,'

The above quote describes whats happens to those who fall into the trap of the great ego, they ultimatley fail. It is also clear how maharaj says that those who cannot save themselves from the claws of death, how will his people survive it?

'Reflecting over the egoistic state of Mir Mehdi the Unmanifested Brahman thought of killing him; he created an insect, which entered the ear of Mir Mehdi,

Entering his ear, that insect conquered that base fellow, and giving him various types of suffering, killed him in this way'.'

Mehdi mir is so powerful that in order to destroy his ego that develops in his rule Akaal Purkh Vaheguru sends an insect to kill mehdi mir, this insect kills mehdi mir though various pains and suffereings in the body. It is clear that mehdi mir is being punished of the egoness and hankaar ways in pain just before he leaves earth in order for that sin to be canceled.

Now seriously how can you still think that imam mahdi and mehdi mir are not the same?

And could you tell me the page number of that shabad from sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.

[kirpa_karo]

raam is the title of ramchandra the avtaar yet used for nirankaar - maybe satguru ji is praising nirankaar?

[Guest Javanmard]

Your Singhs of the past my dear couldn't read a line of Persian or Arabic as their rahitname forbid it. I have not come accross any Taksali who could sustain a conversation in Persian. You guys are not credible. You yourself wouldn't be able to quote me a single original hadith book about Imam Mahdi (fta).

You people are totally ignorant about Shi'a tradition so please don't make up stuff that isn't real ok? Talk about stuff you have authority on. You don't know Arabic or Persian neither do your sants so please stop being ridiculous!You people think you are so learned because you can cut and paste...wow I am impressed!!! clap clap clap!

[dhan96Crore]

Again did you know understand my post? It is clear that they are the same and not two that you like to tell yourself.

Now seriously how can you still think that imam mahdi and mehdi mir are not the same?

They are the same, and dasam bani in no lie my friend!!!

That shabad which you mentioned from sri sarbloh granth can mean up to 100 things, it depends upon who is reading it for it to have a different meaning each time.

And can you answer the questions i provided for you in the my above post which proves that mir mehdi is the imam mahdi you talk about.

And the hadeeths, lets not get started about that my friend as you know fully that they are not all real, and only a few are real.

And fyi it clear that dasam pita describes the start of satjug with mehdi mir arriving, read dasam granth.

'You don't know Arabic or Persian neither do your sants so please stop being ridiculous!'

Thats because i do not need to know arabic or persion, why? because all i need to know is gurmukhi for gurbaani, i dont see myself going to live in persia or arabia.

OOOOOhhh so you know more than sants like bhai mani singh, baba Gurbaks singh ram kaur interesting i didnt know that there was another dharam raj living right now to judge the 'sants'.

[John]

Ok Javanmard youve prooved to us that youc an read Arabic you want a Blue Peter badge now!!! and how dare you refer to Sikhs as you people, you yourself praise teh Satgurus all the time!!!!!

[Guest Javanmard]

Welol John,

Well I dare address Panjabi Sikhs of Hindu origin as "you people". Why not? Isn't you people who kicked out the Rababis? You people who forbid the reading of Persian and Arabic in Rahitname written much after 1708? Isn't you people who introduced all the anti-Islamic stuff after 1708 in your Rahitame (halal meat, topi, Muslim women, circumcision). It looks like you people wanted to get rid of the Islamic members of Sikhi. Isn't you people who forced Muslim converts to eat pork even though the rahitname forbid pork? After nearly 8-9 years of being a Sikh and getting nothing but abuse and rejection from you people I understood one important thing: I love the Gurus and I am their Sikh but you people don't consider me as being part of you. Your community started the rejection and racism against me not me! Why on earth should I integrate with people that consider me malechh, call me a majhbi and a foreigner. Any sane human person would feel alienated from you people after a few years like that. Why would I want to stay with people who insult everything I am? My blood, my culture, my ancestry?

I have nothing but praise for classical Indic culture otherwise I wouldn'yt have studied Sanskrit for 6 years and Braj. You on the other hand despise everything about Shi'ism. You insult our Prophets and Imams and you do this knowing fully well that I follow the Gurus as well. I on the other hand have never insulted an of the Indic avataras NEVER let alone the Gurus! And you have the nerve to ask me why I say "you people"?

I think the message is more than clear: you don't want me to be part of you. Then fine!

I stick to my paath and du'as. I don't need you people to love Maharaj!

As to Dhan96Crore, if you don't know Persian how can you read Zafarnamah, Fatehnamah, Hikayat and the works of Bhai Nand Lal Goya?

You know nothing about Arabic and Persian yet you you state that hadiths are not real. So let's be logical:

a. You admit to not knowing Arabic and Persian

b. You can't name a single hadith collection about Imam Mahdi (fta)

c. You in fact know nothing about Shi'ism

BUT you are able to say that hadiths aren't real. Mashallah!!!

The shabad is Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib refers to the Qayim and this word means only one thing: Imam Mahdi (fta).

[John]

Javanmard, when have I called you those things, and you cannot generalise the whole community based on YOUR experiences. In the times of the Gurus, the Sikhs were fully versed in Arabic and Persian, it is only now that the 'Sikhs' have become stupid as can be seen from this forum!!!

[John]

Another thing Javanmard, when have I ever insulted the Prophet and the Imams? I fully respect them..