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was guru nanak dev ji shia muslim?


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Guest Javanmard

1. No evidence that the ban was in vigour at that time.In fact the ban would only have made sense after Muslim invasions.

2. None of the Sikh religous literature forbids burial. Nanakpanthi Muslims get buried.

3. Ever heard of Umrah?

4. Nanakshahi Muslims conserve the shari'a of Ahlul Bayt (as) whereas Hindu Sikhs have to give most of their beliefs. How do your explain that? One concession to Indian ways doesn't overshadow the rest of commonalities with ghuluw practise.

5. The definition of what kufr is is quite clear. Muhammad (pbuh) was the last law giving prophet sent by Allah (swt).

6.The Ginans are according to the Ismaili tradition divinely revealed as is gurbani.

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Javanmard Ji, you seem to have serious hate issues, for someone who is a scholar, you should read carefully before making childish comments: "This is such a shame. My dads cousin used to work in Ir

You forgot to paste the rest of your "priests" article (1 priest out of thousands employed there) : "The temple's door is open to all those who are Hindus by birth irrespective of caste. It is also

1. The ban surely wasn't i vigor during the Mughal period. Discrete way to concede your earlier point. From the little research I have done, I have found that Orissa was a Hindu kingdom ruled

1. No evidence that the ban was in vigour at that time.In fact the ban would only have made sense after Muslim invasions.

No it wouldn't, how could a ban have been enforced when the rulers of Orissa became Muslims? Refer back to your Vaisnav scholars comments on this being a rooted tradition.

2. None of the Sikh religous literature forbids burial. Nanakpanthi Muslims get buried.

No, it does not forbid burial, but the "ideal" is conveyed, as I said refer to Ramkali Sadu. And in all Islamic tradition and as per the holy Koran, burial method is given, which Satgurus' did not follow.

3. Ever heard of Umrah?

Are you know going to say that Satguru performed Tawaf, Sai and halq or taqsir?

That would be an interesting twist to your theory, Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj shaved or trimmed their hair!

4. Nanakshahi Muslims conserve the shari'a of Ahlul Bayt (as) whereas Hindu Sikhs have to give most of their beliefs. How do your explain that? One concession to Indian ways doesn't overshadow the rest of commonalities with ghuluw practise.

Well, our Guru Sahiban did not feel the need to conserve or practice the sharia of Ahlul Bayt, thats what this discussion is about.

I am not, nor have, argued that their not are commonalities with Muslim or Hindu practices, be them many, I am simply saying Guru Sahiban were not Muslims (in your understanding), their truth was omnipresent (inclusive of Islam), not restricted to Islam.

5. The definition of what kufr is is quite clear. Muhammad (pbuh) was the last law giving prophet sent by Allah (swt).

Well this opens up a whole new subject, did our Guru's abide by all the Prophets laws, are all the Prophets laws found in the puratan sikh tradition?

6.The Ginans are according to the Ismaili tradition divinely revealed as is gurbani.

Thats a matter of opinion. Divinely revealed to whom? Was it not a multitude of Saints, there being no restriction on inclusions....

Gurbani is exactly that, sealed by Dashmesh Pita (albeit some very minor differences in current opposing Sikh thought).

I would have thought of the Ginans as beautiful and inpsired poetry based on existing Indic and Semetic beliefs.

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Guest Javanmard

You have put really good points across and I appreciate that. Maybe I should have been clearer in expressing my ideas. The Sikh tradition the way I see it was a chivalry order, a brotherhood of God. Such orders did exist for very short time in places like Portugal or the middle east where Christian and Muslims joined in one brotherhood and shared the same food etc... I refer here to the brotherhood that tied Don Afonso Herniques and Ibn Qasi. As such the exoteric allegiance did not matter so much as the sharing of a same esoteric tradition. I see the same in the Sikh tradition. I have no problem admitting that from Guru Angad on the Gurus kept some external practises from the Indian traditions. As for Guru Nanak though I have to be adamant about the fact that he was a Muslim. In many texts such as the ginans there is this dream of Muslims drinking from the same cup as Hindus. Now isn't this precisely what amrit is? A brotherhood surpassing the exoteric allegiances? A tisra panth that would bridge teh differences between the Turks and the Indian? I think so.

At the same time that very idea is profoundly rooted in Shi'a and Iranian thought. The external identity of the Sikh or even the Gurus didn't matter as the sharing of that common exoteric ghuluww tradition with which enlightened "Hindus" never really had a problem with.But the very idea is a Shi'a and Iranian one, that of futuwwah and the very initiation rituals of the Khalsa prove it: they are found in many chivalry orders in Iran.

Unfortunately I do think that the project has failed not because of the Gurus but because of the hijacking of the order by its Hindu members who enforced racist and humiliating restrictions on its Islamic members. e.g. forcing Majhbis to eat pork, prohibition of using Persian etc...

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If Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet in Islam, than why did Mecca spin around to face the Guru's feet? Why are Guru Nanak Dev ji's sandals in the Kaaba, towards which all Muslims bow 5 times daily in their Namaaz? Proof of this is in Gurbani in Bhai Gurdass dian Vaaran. Also, from sakhis and my brother's friend (a muslim) who spoke with the caretaker at Mecca and was told that the sandals belonged to the Guru.

Additionally, all Gurus have the same light within them, as seen by them calling themselves Nanak in writing their Bani.There is no difference. However, Guru Gobind Singh ji writes that he does not accept the authority of the Koran over him. Without accepting the authority of the Koran, how could Guru Nanak be Muslim?

raam raheem puraan kuraan anayk khahai(n) math ayk ‘n’ maanyo

Raam Chaandr, Rahim, the Puranas, and the Koran. There are countless like them, but I do not yield to any of them.

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Veer ji,

"In many texts such as the ginans there is this dream of Muslims drinking from the same cup as Hindus. Now isn't this precisely what amrit is? A brotherhood surpassing the exoteric allegiances? A tisra panth that would bridge the differences between the Turks and the Indian? I think so."

I think so to, this is exactly what I was trying to say, Guru Sahiban and other truely enlightened souls surpass man and religious restriction, they see, live and breathe the one divine light.

Your view of Guru Nanak Dev Ji being Muslim (which they were and we all strive to be in Gurmat terminolgy), in my opinion still contradicts the Mahalla/jagdi jyot revelation.

And the tisra (nirmal) panth you mention, in my opinion was the plan, but not just tisra, but all inclusive, which again shows Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not restricted to the pela or dooja panth.

I have no problem with (although I have very limited knowledge on the topic), accepting that the Khalsa shares or may have even used some universal chivalry ideas from Iran, the same way I have no problem with our Guru's using Ved rooted raags in all of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Excellence is to be recognised, appreciated and used where-ever it may be found, in what-ever it may be found.

I agree that the "project" today, is not what it was set out to be. For me, the project is still successful in terms of creating amazing anmol individuals who have understood or strive to understand the all pervading reality revealed by Satguru - the same is true for other "projects" such as Buddism, Indic faiths, Semetic faiths.... we should recognise praise the individual rather than the faith, as our pyare Gurus' did.

On a non-biased note, for me, Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi Sahib, is a beautiful example of pearl, who saw past man made barriers and saw Islam in all and all in Islam.

"[16:125] You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones."

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa;

Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh||

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Guest Javanmard

Between me and shaheediyan there is only a difference of emphasis. Guru Nanak being a Muslim does in no way contradict the fact the he is a manifestation of the Face of God.

Xylitol:

If Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet in Islam, than why did Mecca spin around to face the Guru's feet? Why are Guru Nanak Dev ji's sandals in the Kaaba, towards which all Muslims bow 5 times daily in their Namaaz? Proof of this is in Gurbani in Bhai Gurdass dian Vaaran. Also, from sakhis and my brother's friend (a muslim) who spoke with the caretaker at Mecca and was told that the sandals belonged to the Guru.

Why did the Kaaba open its wall for Fatimah bint Asad (as) when she gave birth to Imam Ali (as) inside the Kaabah?

Why did the Kaabah tremble on the day of Ashura?

There are many objects inside the Kaaba besides the shoes of maharaj which have been conserved by the Suhravardi order.

There used to be a Christian icon inside .the Kaabah depicting the Virgin Mary (as) and Jesus (as). the fact that Muslims bow down to the Kaaba 5 times a day doesn't make them Christians

raam raheem puraan kuraan anayk khahai(n) math ayk ‘n’ maanyo

Raam Chaandr, Rahim, the Puranas, and the Koran. There are countless like them, but I do not yield to any of them.

How come half of dasam bani deals with puranic material? How come Ram and rahim are used as names of God in gurbani then? Why does Guru Gobind Singh re-use Qur'anic verses?

Unless of course you miss the point of the verse which that Guru Gobind Singh looked beyond religious boundaries.

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"Guru Nanak being a Muslim does in no way contradict the fact the he is a manifestation of the Face of God. "

I also believe that it would be no contradiction. It's only natural that Muslims would lay claim to Guru Nanak as their saint, Hindus and Buddhists also consider him a saint of their religion. But he was not 'exclusively' Muslim as your posts claim.

I never claimed bowing to Kaaba made them Sikhs

"Raam Chaandr, Rahim, the Puranas, and the Koran. There are countless like them, but I do not yield to any of them."

The point is that Sikh dharm is seperate dharm, not that it lacks universal nature which I never said. The Gurus did look beyond religious boundaries, that much is clear from all of their teaching, but they regard the Sikh dharm as supreme. With the one light pervading all Gurus, the Tenth Nanak stated that he did not yield to the Koran, So without yielding to the Koran, how can Guru Nanak EXCLUSIVELY be a Muslim? he can't.

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I see Bahndar Singhs beating his chest again! What he fails to mention is that the Shia schools of thought are so vast and differ greatly amongst themselves. You could say even though they collectively call themselves similar (tribalism) but they differ as much as oil and water. What Bahadar fails to demonstrate is a single school of thought a collective order, foundation which clearly shows similarities with Sikhi and Khalsa. He’s simply picking and choosing from the vast spectrum of Shia philosophies and traditions and cross referencing them to Sikhi. If one was to take any faith it can be crossed referenced to Shia traditions etc, but again there will be no collective that shows one school predominantly originally nurturing the seed of thought before it was followed taken up by another etc.

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Guest Javanmard

Have I ever said ALL SHI'AS? As Dancing Queen has correctly pointed out Shi'ism is a vast and beautifully diverse world. As for his conclusions well...predictable really.I guess you could find similarities with Sikhi and Guarani Indians in Brazil because they clean their teath with datan....I am talking here about very precise and historically traceable influences not some random coincidence.

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Guest Javanmard

Depends on the kebabs. Turkish ones are nasty. Iranian ones are better. Mind you Ahl e Kitab aren't considered kafir according to most Shi'a scholars. As for Sunnis...who cares!

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Again answer the question pigfarz.

What are you going to do when the 96 khalsa take over Iran and the rest of the world and estabilish khalsa raj?

Stop them????? Actually youll probably beat your chest as hard as you can with your fanatic islamic crew!

Pigfarz i sugest you do some bhagti instead of reading all the time, then maybe you might gain some spiritual knowledge.

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