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GURU NANAK IN TIBET - A Buddhist Viewpoint?

Tarungpa Tulku (As published in the Indian Express, March 6th, 1966)

It gave me great pleasure when I was asked to write this article as I have wanted for a long time to say something about my impressions of the Religion of the Sikhs in India, and my connections with it. After my escape from Tibet, I lived as a refugee in India for several years, alongside so many of my countrymen. There I had the great good fortune to be looked after by a Sikh family, by Baba Bedi, his English wife, and their three children. While I was with them, I was able to visit many of the Sikh holy places and I was given hospitality there.

My interest in Sikhism is not only a personal one, however. In Tibet, Guru Nanak is revered as an emanation of Guru Padmasambhava. Many of our pilgrims visited Amritsar and other holy places which they looked upon as equal in importance to Buddha-Gaya. They always said that the Sikhs treated them with great respect and were very hospitable: " as our expression goes, they bowed down to their feet." It seems that the Sikhs really practice the doctrine of their religion; perhaps they are the only ones who give such wonderful dana to travellers.

Full version:

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Na...in_Tibet_Quotes

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Javanmard Ji, you seem to have serious hate issues, for someone who is a scholar, you should read carefully before making childish comments: "This is such a shame. My dads cousin used to work in Ir

You forgot to paste the rest of your "priests" article (1 priest out of thousands employed there) : "The temple's door is open to all those who are Hindus by birth irrespective of caste. It is also

1. The ban surely wasn't i vigor during the Mughal period. Discrete way to concede your earlier point. From the little research I have done, I have found that Orissa was a Hindu kingdom ruled

Thanks for those articles Namjap. I have also mentioned this point earlier.

It is interesting to note that Buddha Ji said that in the dark age after his death he would return in the form of books and to look up to and respect him... basically giving gur-gaddi to holy texts...

Maybe Sikhi was an offshoot of Buddism?

Sorry, seriously.... this as stated earlier is just further proof that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was above sharia and all existing faith groups including all those of Islam. For an ancient Buddist school to revere Satguru as a lama/incarnation is a beautiful concept, same as for some Sufi, Shia and many Hindu based schools of thought to revere Satguru as their associated divinity.

Only Satguru visited and won the hearts and minds of such a huge number of diverse people from numerous faiths and schools, without having to feel the need to convert them. Guru Ji focused ont the esoteric nature and helped uncover the universal veil of illusion from all the existing faiths, thus revealing that one common truth and path that bonds all those who can rise above divisions.

The Sri Harimandir Sahib depicts this beautifully, having one path but entrances facing all 4 sides - showing that no one divine faith is above another, and that the truthful from any religious demonination are welcome to the pure house of God, BUT, showing that there is ony one common/universal path to that sublime house, the path of love, compassion, kindness, justice, acceptance, humility, charity, chivalry and most importantly, truth... a path which links all true religions and provides the one road that all the truthful walk down together, even though entrance used to enter the house of God may be different.

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The Sri Harimandir Sahib depicts this beautifully, having one path but entrances facing all 4 sides - showing that no one divine faith is above another, and that the truthful from any religious demonination are welcome to the pure house of God, BUT, showing that there is ony one common/universal path to that sublime house, the path of love, compassion, kindness, justice, acceptance, humility, charity, chivalry and most importantly, truth... a path which links all true religions and provides the one road that all the truthful walk down together, even though entrance used to enter the house of God may be different.

Waheguru

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Guest Javanmard

The four door architecture and the sacred building in the middle of a pool is a TYPICAL Persian and Mughal architectural characteristic!

If you find a Buddhist temple built around the 18th century in India with that structure shabash!

http://www.netnative.com/news/99/oct/1001.html

As to Buddhism. There are no doubt great commonalities with Tantric Buddhism and Sikhi. But when you talk about Buddhism at least have the decency to precise what kind of Buddhism you're talking about. I doubt very much Sikhi has got anything to do with Jainism or Theravada Buddhism against which it is fiercely opposed.

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Bahadur Singh correct me if i am wrong which i am sure you will but according to the Gurbilas Patshahi 6 was that the structure of the Sri Harmandir Sahib was based on the form of Vishnu!!! I think this is what is mentioned in the Gurbilas by Bhagat Singh.

Also a quick thing, if Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a Shia and Shias see Guru Nanak Dev Ji as the face of God then do they accept the incident of Guru Nanak dEv Ji in Mecca where the Ka'bba moved in the direction of the Satgurus feet?

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So the most rational explanation being that it's based on contemporary Persian patterns makes no sense...but of course some form of Vishnu for a building built in the mughal style makes more sense? right...

Had it been Vishnu's how come the hiranyagharba ceremony wasn't performed for Harmimandir Sahib? Why was Mian Mir Sahib (ra) invited instead?

The Ka'bah moved for Imam 'Ali (as) and for Imam Hussain (as) why wouldn't it move for Guru Nanak?

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"So the most rational explanation being that it's based on contemporary Persian patterns makes no sense...but of course some form of Vishnu for a building built in the mughal style makes more sense? right... "

Touche!

Nice investigative work. However no one said that or has a problem with the architecture being Persian/Mughal etc (if that is correct), like I said in another post, Guru's took the best that was available, that does not howvere negate the fact that Guru's manipulated and corrected the use of beautiful creations. In any case (not that matters), there is no date on the link you sent, nor explanation as to the use of the building and importance of it's architecture.

Guru Sahiban utilised and saved the devotional vedic raag sangeet institution from the gross corruption that the Mughal empire had administered by taking raagi's from the mandhirs to their own darbaars and courtesan houses to perform for their own pleasure.

"Had it been Vishnu's how come the hiranyagharba ceremony wasn't performed for Harmimandir Sahib? Why was Mian Mir Sahib (ra) invited instead?"

You take things to extremes veer ji, if Darbaar Sahib was based on the form of Vishnu/Brahma, why would an hiranyagharba need to be performed? Not every action implies an "commitment" to a different faith? Especially in the case of Satguru, Could they have not simply been emphasising the deeper meaning of the four faces of the deity, which I am sure someone as holy and universally minded as Mian Mir would not have had a problem with.

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No Bahadur Singh that is not the point i was making. i do not know or have any idea regarding the concept on which the Sri Harmandir Sahib was created so there is no need to be sarcastic. I can just remember from a really old post on this forum that it was mentioned as a referance ot the Gurbilas Patshahi 6. I'm guessing you do not hold that scripture in high authority if it does say that?

With regards to the Ka'bah moving for Guru Nanak Dev Ji i have not found one single muslim, weather Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Druze or Ba'hia that accepts this. This to them is cosidered blasphamy. How could the Ka'bah move for Guru Nank Dev Ji. How could they have even travelled to Mecca. The incident in Baghdad is refuted by them. The incident in Medina is not accepted by them. According to them Guru Nanak Dev Ji may have been a spiritual reformer but could not be Muslim and if he was he undermined the prophet in pointing his feet towards the place of worship.

No matter what arguements you put foreward Guru Nanak DEv Ji will not be accepted as a Muslim by the muslim community if they were to know about the truth of Guru Nanak Dev Jis travels. Just as you say Bahadur Singh the Sikh community never accepted you, nor will the islamic community accept Guru Nanak Dev Ji from the miricles and travels they performed.

Another thing. ANy news on that Janamsakhi, i want some details of it as soon as so i can start digging through it. Cheers

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well bala is considered to be a conspiracy by the mina's that the handaleyay supposedly created, so there is alot of stuff that has been interpolated. I don't think that bhai mardana can be considered a falsification, bala can. based on what was said about mian mir above, that can be as well...Was there a persian ceremony done when darbar sahib was actually created? if so, what was it called? The fact that it is called a darbar, and alot of the other terminology doesn't discount a persian influence but it doesn't mean that it makes everything persian either. Economics has alot to do with the 'royal' influences. People emulate those in power because what they institute is usually a set precedent.

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well bala is considered to be a conspiracy by the mina's that the handaleyay supposedly created, so there is alot of stuff that has been interpolated. I don't think that bhai mardana can be considered a falsification, bala can. based on what was said about mian mir above, that can be as well...Was there a persian ceremony done when darbar sahib was actually created? if so, what was it called? The fact that it is called a darbar, and alot of the other terminology doesn't discount a persian influence but it doesn't mean that it makes everything persian either. Economics has alot to do with the 'royal' influences. People emulate those in power because what they institute is usually a set precedent.

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"Guru's took the best that was available, that does not howvere negate the fact that Guru's manipulated and corrected the use of beautiful creations. " "Not every action implies an "commitment" to a different faith"

Exactly.

Harimandir Sahib was open in all four directions, symbolising openess to all.

But what is noteworthy about architecture is that the Akaal Takht, our seat of authority, was made by Sikhs entirely. The entire foundation of the Takht, from the baking of bricks to the laying of the foundation, was done by Guru Hargobind Sahib ji and two other Bhramgyani Gursikhs. I believe it was Baba Buddha ji and Bhai Gurdass ji.

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Brother Bahadur Singh i know you have been busy trying to reply to all of all on the numerous threads on the net but can you just quickly answer the questions i posed

1) Does the Gurbilas Patshahi 6 by Bhagat singh talk about the structure of the Sri Harmandir Sahib being in the form of Vishnu?

2) Do the Islamic sects accept that Guru Nanak Dev Ji moved the Ka'aba with their feet? If so please list which sects as each and every mulim i have spoke to find this episode as lies and blasphamy!

3) Have you found the Janamsakhi you mentioned which talks about Guru Nanak DEv Ji having a muslim wife who had two daughter by Maharaj? If so please pass on details. i am guessing it is by a muslim source!

4) I am aware you state Sri Harmandir Sahib was made in accordance to persion style, however places like agra, taj mahal, fatehpur sikri are all from moghul influence but do not bear the same style. can you tell us of any moghul buildings in india or pakistan of a similar style?

5) the Durghiana Mandir is in Amritsar and bears a similar resemblance to the Harmandir Sahib. Did the hindus also copy the style of the persians when building this mandir?

thanks in advance!

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2.Depends on the Muslims depeds on the tariqa. There is no definite answer. You may have met Muslims who think it's blasphemy I met many who don't think it was but then again they were scholars...

3.It actually isn't from a Muslim source from what I remember. You assumption is wrong. I unfortunately don't live i the UK anymore and don't have access to SOAS library anymore.

4. The Golden temple is NOT estblished on the principles of Indian traditional architecture! In fact its structure is Indo-Persian and Mughal:

http://uk.geocities.com/iranwal/EilGoli.JPG

http://www.molon.de/galleries/India/Rajahs...ke%20palace.jpg

5. The Durgiana Mandir is precisely a copy of Harimandir Sahib and is again NOT built according to the shastras. Sorry to break the bad news. Read the works by Bruno Dagens on Hindu architecture and you'll see why!

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Gurfateh !

Javanmard Sahib has a point about the Indo Persian architecture - take a look at these pictures.

They are of Jehangir's Hiran Minar in Sheikhpura, Pakistani Punjab. Jehangir built this hunting pavillion in around CE 1616 - the minar is the tower, not the central pavillion, built to the memory of a favourite deer , 'Mansaraj'. The Hiran Minar takes the form of an arched causeway leading to a three-storey octagonal pavilion in the centre of a artificial lake, where Jahangir sat and watched the wild animals drawn to the water.

It bears a striking resemblance to Siri Darbar Sahib - though that is not at all surprising as it has been argued that buildings such as this and the Taj Mahal are attempts to portray 'Heaven' on earth - a Persian concept of 'Gardens of Paradise' - such gardens or 'Char Bagh' are divided into 4 sections, each section symbolizing the 4 'abundant' elements of paradise Milk,Honey, Wine and water.

As Sri Harimandar Sahib is the Royal Darbar of Guru Sahib the use of such architecture is not that surprising and very apt.

The Darbar Sahib does take from Indo Persian architecture but it is also argued it enshrines 'Sikh' concepts such as 'Man Neevan Mat Uchi' - being built lower than the surrounding area and the causeway - it is said it takes 84 steps to reach the 'Darbar' - 'Cutting one's Chaurasi'.

Here are the pictures - What I find interesting is that the hiran minar may give a clue as to what the Original Darbar Sahib may have looked like before the 18th century destruction and rebuilding and the Ranjit Singh Gold plating - you can see it is a Lime and brick structure with stucco work and there are traces of frescos.

292913899318fed39d3bgc5.jpg

3540022538a36f3b528oia1.jpg

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3547315309d495bf923bpv5.jpg

The Minar or tower

36467474767b21d7b71olq2.jpg

42144135100f3d0a632bde2.jpg

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Traces of frescoes - I see our Pakistani Punjabi brothers have as much respect for priceless fragile monuments as many of their Indian counterparts !!!!!!

4264833035bf5125394bnh2.jpg

enjoy

'Freed'

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Freed good post, made things much easier to understand, i was just reading about the crusades when i came upon the buildings of the crusaders. They used to make buildings with a dome on the roof in the same way as the Al Aqsa Mosque in Isreal. They believed that they were copying the structure complete by King Soloman but actually they were just copying the beautiful mosque created by the Islamic residents. These domes which are from islamic architecture can be found on almost all of the Sikh shrines in India.

Javanmard as you can remember that the Janamsakhi from the SOAS which talks about Guru Nanak Dev Ji having a muslim wife and two daughters is not by a muslim author. Apologies for the assumption. Can you tell me what the title is please or the possible author as you must remember something. I only ask as a few of my Ismaili friends said they could get it for me if i gave them some more information

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Guest Javanmard

I guess that raping Muslim women during partitio was an act of chivalry on your people's part right?

You do realise that Shi'as get persecuted in Saudi Arabia and that anyone who kills a Shi'a there is told he'll go to heaven.

You people are so pig ignorant...debating with you is like debating with a retard...

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