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Shia Sikh relations


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Javanmard i know you mentioned that through a janamsakhi you found it revealed that Sri Guru nanak Dev Ji had a muslim wife who had two daughters. Can you tell me more about the source of the janamsakhi and the author. Also if this is the case where is this lineage today, have we got a sikh version of the da vinci code (you know what i mean)

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Guest Javanmard

I still have to find the book at the SOAS library. I know what you mean about da vinci code. Actually the ocultation of the Shi'a elements in Sikhi is not too far away from that scenario.

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Well it seems to me that after 1708 there has been a clear attempt to kick out the Shi'a elements of the Sikh brotherhood by introducing all kinds of anti-Islamic rules destines at keeping Shi'a out of the Khalsa although the ritual of initiation itself is Shi'a. All the anti-halal meat, anti-Muslim women, anti-circumcision laws on top of statements such as "don"t trust Muslims" and a general anti-Muslim culture among Indian Sikhs seem to point out to it to me.

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Well it seems to me that after 1708 there has been a clear attempt to kick out the Shi'a elements of the Sikh brotherhood by introducing all kinds of anti-Islamic rules destines at keeping Shi'a out of the Khalsa although the ritual of initiation itself is Shi'a. All the anti-halal meat, anti-Muslim women, anti-circumcision laws on top of statements such as "don"t trust Muslims" and a general anti-Muslim culture among Indian Sikhs seem to point out to it to me.

haah vei, ye our gurus were circumsised too werent they and our gurus used to drain the blood of animals and read the kalma before they ate them yeh, oh and i forgot our gurus used to shave their pubic hair every 40 days innit!

Lord almighty do you chat crap!

fair enough shia'ism has some correlation with sikhi but dont try and merge it man!

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Guest Javanmard

Actually found it already. Thanks anyways. Btw I never said Guru Gobind Singh was a Muslim. Stop putting words in my mouth I never said OK?

our gurus used to drain the blood of animals and read the kalma before they ate them
How is this different from jhatka:

1. The animal receives a bath (like the Muslim way)

2. Prayers are recited (like the Muslim way)

3. The animal is killed

According to Ayatollah Saanei jhatka would be considered halal. I don't consider the Sikh Gurus from Guru Angad on to have been Muslims. They were exoterically Hindus i.e. or birth, marriage and death rituals they followed traditional Indic rituals with Sikh elements. In the same way Muslim Nanakshahis were exoterically following shari'a.

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well if you can have the dursaahas of calling Pehle Patshah a muslim then surly Guru Gobind Singh Ji the "10 NANAK" must also be a muslim since they are the same param jyot.

the Quran states that there is no other rasool of Allah but Muhammad (PBUH) the Guru Nanak and other patshahs are seen as false. So there can be no correlation between sikhi and shiaism unless ur willing to say that the Quran is wrong, which i think you wont say.

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1.

well if you can have the dursaahas of calling Pehle Patshah a muslim then surly Guru Gobind Singh Ji the "10 NANAK" must also be a muslim since they are the same param jyot.

Yes they were the same light BUT:

a. Did they have the same bodies?

b. The same lives?

c. The same family?

Clearly not. So this invalidates your argument. I never said that the Gurus from Guru Angad on were Muslims. Quite the contrary actually.

2.

the Quran states that there is no other rasool of Allah but Muhammad (PBUH) the Guru Nanak and other patshahs are seen as false. So there can be no correlation between sikhi and shiaism unless ur willing to say that the Quran is wrong, which i think you wont say.

a. The doctrine of khitmatul anbiyah isn't stated as such in the Qur'an.

b. The Prophet (pbuh) surely is the last law giving prophet which entitles him to the title of rasul. The Gurus on the other hand never claimed to either nabi or rasul. The term they use for themselves is that of Satguru.As the function of Satguru as a bringer of esoteric truth does not contradict the exoteric mission of the Prophet (pbuh) I don't know where your problem comes from. And in any case there are generations of Muslim Nanakpanthis to prove you wrong or are they not "snaaaatan like" enough for you?

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They can be manifestations of the light of the Imams. In Shi'a esoteric teaching there is no difference between the light of the eternal Imam and the hujjat (proof). In fact doesn't the expression Guru Nanak Musalman ka Pir confirm this?

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no, 'Musalman ka Pir' means he is a teacher and saint to Muslims. clearly that line shows he's not exclusively a Muslim, as it also calls him a Guru of the Hindus.

The Gurus in reference to being the same param jyot are clearly not referring to it in the same way as all prophets are of the same jyot. they are referring to themselves and thier lineage only.

Also, Guru Nanak is God himself, an avtar, whereas the Prophet was not God himself, he was from God. there is a difference. That's why Guru Nanak is called the highest of all, he is not called higher than all, except for the Prophet.

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Also, Guru Nanak is God himself, an avtar, whereas the Prophet was not God himself, he was from God.

hadith: "There is no difference between me and Allah (swt) except I am I and He is He."

That's what the Prophet says about himself.

Imam Ali says about himself:

I am the brother of the Messenger of God and the Heir to His knowledge, the treasury of His wisdom, and the Companion of His secret. There is not a letter revealed by God in any of His Books whose intention does not point towards me. He hath vouchsafed unto me the knowledge of what was from eternity and what will happen unto the Day of Resurrection. To me hath been vouchsafed the knowledge of past and future generations and their genealogies. And to Me hath been given a thousand keys to a thousand doors. The knowledge of the destinies of all things hath been granted unto me. All these Gifts shall continue to flow through my Appointed Successors (wasi's) as long as day is followed by night and night followed by day and until all things return to God. For verily, He is the True Inheritor of all things.

Unto me, too, hath been vouchsafed the Path, the Balance, the Banner, and the Kawthar. I am the one who shall face the children of Adam on the Day of Judgement and shall bring them to account and shall direct them to their habitations. And verily, I am the punishment of fire meted unto the damned. These are the bounties of God unto me. And should anyone deny that I shall return after the Return[3], or deny that I shall come back after the Raj'at[4], or should anyone reject the truth that I shall appear again, even as I have done from the beginning that hath no beginning or even unto the end that hath no end, he, verily, hath denied the truth of all of Us. And verily I say unto you, he who denies any one of Us, hath denied God. I am the one who hath summoned you; I am the companion of your prayers and invocations. I am the Lord of retribution, and I am the Master of the signs and the Lord of the wondrous symbols of guidance. I am cognisant of the mysteries of creation; I am the One who brought the iron unto Men[5]. I am forever new and forever pre-existent, the One who brought the Angels from out of their habitations, the One who pledged an everlasting covenant with your spirits on the dawn of creation and Who, on that day, asked, through the will of God, the Self-subsisting, these words: "Am I not your Lord?" I am the Word of God [Kalimat'u'lláh] which hath been uttered in the world of creation, the Object of the covenant that hath been promised in the prayers and salutations which lie in the reality of all created things. I am the name that hath been invoked by orphans and by widows, the door to the city of knowledge and the refuge of patience and forbearance. I am the upraised flag of God, the companion of the banner of divine praise, the Lord of infinite bounty and of infinite grace. But should I tell you all that I am, you would doubtless disbelieve Me. For I am also the slayer of oppressors, the treasury of divine favours in this world and of the next. I am the master of the believers, the guide of those who seek the way. The truth is Mine and certitude is at My side. Leadership is Mine and the righteous shall follow Me. I am the first to acknowledge faith, the Cord of God that shall not be broken, the One who will raise the world to justice even as it hath been brought low by oppression. I am the companion of Gabriel and the archangel Michael is beside Me. I am the tree of guidance, and the essence of righteousness. I shall gather together the world of creation through the Word of God that gathers together all things. I give life unto humanity and I am the treasury of all divine commands. To Me hath been given the Luminous Pen and the Crimson Camel[6].

I am the gate-keeper of certitude, the Commander of the Faithful, the friend of Khidir. I am the One who shall conquer Syria and destroy the arrogant. I have existed throughout the past, and, verily, I have never uttered a falsehood. Through a word from Me, truth hath been separated from error, for I speak through divine inspiration and know of the stars and constellations. God hath commanded me to ordain their orbit and vouchsafed unto me their knowledge. With Me are the saffron and crimson coloured flags and I shall remain concealed until the time shall come for My manifestation in a great Cause. Then, shall I grant and withhold as I wish. None can describe Me except Myself, for I shall protect the faith of my Lord. I am the One Whom my Cousin chose, Who was present when His sacred remains were shrouded. I am the Guardian appointed by God, the Most Merciful God, the companion of Khidir[7] and Aaron, and the friend of Moses and Joshua, the son of Nun. I am the Lord of Paradise, He Who hath caused the rain to fall and the earth to quake and the sun and moon to be eclipsed. I am the Object of the creation of multitudes and it is I who shall slay those who do not believe. Verily, I am the leader of the righteous, the Sacred Fane frequented by all, the upraised firmament, the fathomless ocean. I am the Holy of Holies, the pillar that supports humanity. I am the Possessor of the Greatest Cause. Is there anyone who can speak beside Me? I am fire itself. At a single Word of God, at one utterance of the Prophet, I would put within you My sword's length and send you hurrying unto your next abode. I am the meaning of Ramadán and the night of Qadr[8] mentioned in the Mother Book. My utterance is decisive, for I am the Súrah of Praise[9]. I am the purpose of prayer itself, whether at home or when travelling. I am the purpose of fasting, and the sacred anniversaries in the months of the year. I am the Lord of Resurrection and Judgement, the One who can remove the yoke that lies heavy on the people of Muhammad. I am the Gate through which all shall pass who worship God; I am His worshipper, and one created by Him. I am both the witness and the One witnessed to, the possessor of the green canopy, He Whose name is mentioned in the heavens and the earth, Who is the travelling companion of the Messenger of God throughout the heavens, for with Me is the Book and the sacred Arc. I am the One who befriended Seth, the son of Adam[10], the companion of Moses and Irám, and all metaphors and analogies pertain unto Me. Who indeed is there to compare with Me? For I am the heaven-sent rain that causeth each blade of green to grow, the Lord of this nether realm Who brings forth the rains when all have lost their hope in its downpour. I am He Who summoneth the mighty lightning and causeth the ocean to rise and swell, the One who speaketh to the sun and causeth the stunning trumpet to blast forth. I am the refuge of all that have obeyed God, and verily, God is my Lord and there is no other God but He. For falsehood offers illusions, but truth giveth thee everlasting sovereignty.

I shall soon depart from amongst you, but be watchful and aware; be on your guard against the tests and tribulations caused by the 'Ummayyds and their worldly powers. And after they shall pass away, the kingdom will revert to the 'Abbasids[11] who will bring both sorrow and happiness to mankind. And they shall build a city called Baghdád, which shall be between the Tigris and the Euphrates. Woe betide men in those latter days, for amongst them will rise the oppressors among My people, who shall build palaces for themselves and courts and tabernacles. For they shall seek supremacy through intrigue and impiety. Two score and two kings shall rule among the children of the 'Abbasids, after whose reign shall come to pass the Most Great Tribulation on the surface of the earth. Then shall the True Qá'im rise up once more. Then shall I show My Face amongst men, and it shall be as luminous as the face of the moon amid the other stars. But note well the ten signs associated with my coming. The first sign shall be the inversion of banners on the highways of Kúfa[12]; the second, the abeyance of true worship and the prescribed prayers; the third, the end of true pilgrimage. The fourth sign shall be an eclipse in the lands of Khorasán[13], the gathering of constellations and the appearance of comets in the sky. There shall be chaos and confusion, massacre, pillage and robbery in the world. Many other signs shall there be too, surpassing all these signs, among which is the sign of wonderment. But when all these signs have passed away, then, verily, shall the Qá'im Himself arise in truth.

O people, sanctify the Lord your God from all similitudes, for every reference to Him fails, and whosoever tries to limit the Creator by description or comparison hath verily disbelieved in His Book, which is the Book of God's Own Utterance.

Then He said: How great the blessedness of those who love Me and who sacrifice their life in My path and who get exiled because of Me! They truly are the repositories of God's knowledge, nor shall they be put to fear on the Day of the Great Terror.

I am the Light of God, Who can never be extinguished; I am the Mystery of God that can not be concealed.

and also:

I am the Master (sahib) of the First Creation before the First Noah, and if you were to know what was between Adam and Noah of wondrous events that I wrought and of nations that I caused to perish. And the true Word of Thy Lord was fulfilled in them and evil is that which they worked

I am the Master of the First Flood!

I am the Master of the Second Flood!

I am the Master of the Deluge of Iram!

I am the Master of the Secret Mysteries!

I am the Lord of 'Ad and its gardens!

I am the Lord of Thamud and its wondrous signs!

I am the One that destroyed it,

I am the One that caused the Earthquakes!

I am the One that caused their Return and their Perdition!

I am the Builder of those civilisations and their Destroyer!

I cause their Expiry and I cause them to be quickened!

I am the First and the Last!

I am the External and Manifest and I am the Internal and Hidden!

I am with the Cycle (kawr) before the Cycle began!

I am the Companion of the Dispensation (dawr) before the Dispensation started!

I was with the Pen before the Pen and I am with the Tablet prior to the Tablet being revealed!

I am the Lord of the First Pre-existence!

I am the Lord of Jabulqa and of Jabulsa!

I am the Master of Highest Stage (rafraf) and of Bahram!

I am the One Who organised existence when there was no heaven as you have them now nor earth as you know it now! “

The Son of Suwairama said: "Are you, are you indeed that One?!"

Imam Ali(a.s) replied:

“I am, I am that One!”

Yes this is not the Islam you hear about in the news or i cheap books you read in secondary school or brochures distributed by Sunnis in the street. Welcome to the real deal!!!

So much for your claims that Ahl ul Bayt (as) are not the Face of God.

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Khalsa ji i dont think any of us will be able to kick any sense into javanmard because he has chosen what he believes and what he doesn't, i have been countering his views for a while but there seems to be a kind of gate that cannot be opened in him as he has fixed certain islamic beliefs in him self that cannot be changed, so what does he do? he trys to make out certain beliefs are simaler between the two faiths which is quite disturbing as maharaj clearly states:

'Sab te vada satgur nanak jin kal raki meri'

Have any of you ever come across those muslims when they try and preech to you, then you counter all their attacks, prove their is nothing bigger than sikhi, and yet what ever you say will no way change their views or thoughts, Javanmard is the same it seems as he has got too much muslim 'sangat' as sikhi is a totally seperate religion to all others in the world.

I remember reading somewhere that the imams of shia islam such as imam ali can be at 40 times at one time, this is coming from the shia beliefs they preech.

But javanmard did you know that the brahmgianis of the khalsa panth can be at leat 101 times at one place?

Do you see the difference already. Then why dont you try to imagine how powerful maharaj Guru Gobind SIngh ji is?

Oh yeah and about jatka being halal, admin cut please!

In islam the animal is made to suffer before it dies as all the blood in all the veins is sucked out to the throat - compare to jatka

The goats head is cut off from one stroke from behind the goat does not die by suffering, all the blood is collected in a bata.

Vaheguru ji ka khalsa

Vaheguru ji ki fathe

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Guest Javanmard

Actually for your information there is more than one method to kill animal for it to be halal. I can get you Ayatollah Saanei's fatwa proving it if you want.

The brahmgianis of the khalsa panth can be at leat 101 times at one place?

See I wake up at least 365 times at one place...my bedroom! That makes me more powerful than a brahmgiani!!! WOW!!!!

PRAISE BE TO MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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