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~ State of Sikhi Parchar these days. ~


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I beleif more emphasis being placed on getting youths into sikhi than maintaing quality within sikh youths after they take amrit.

Sri Guru Maharaj Patsah would rather have ten jaigaso (aas/hope of merging with vahiguroo) than having 1000 sikh youths who are stuck at the level of shariat.

All the dharams have four levels:

1. Shariat - Outer Rituals, Maryada(limit) so that mind doesnt do any kurahits.
2. Trikat - the way of worship for inner mind's purification
3. Marfat - means knowledge(shud gyan)
4. Hakikat- means realization of supreme reality.

Parchar isnt limited to samgams, seminars guys, parchar is more than that. These days parchar is only done on the 1st level, once youth takes amrit, all the responsiblity of parcharik is done, parcharik responsiblity should be like teachers. Taking amrit is just admission to school, once admission spiritual education starts have levels- high school grad, diploma, degree, phd. Parcharik responsiblity is take the student through all the levels.

Now question that comes down, who is the real parcharik? is it scholar? kathavachik? gyani? granthi sahiban?

Answer: None of them. Real Parcharik is the bhramgyani/atamgyani who have passed all four levels, expereinced all four levels, lived all four levels not just an scholar/tottagyani who have just read an book, teeka/steeks, spiritual school of thought havent yet expereinced it.

Those who are shardlu of any mahapursh, I am not sure if you guys have notice in their sangat, but its very strange, one amrit dristhi of mahapursh/one bachan of mahapursh/one gurbani tuk recitten by amrit mahi tongue of mahapursh have changed people's life from sinner to jaiagaso to saints. Its just one bachan, one dristi, here we spend ages ages on the forum, seminars, katha try to convince our monaie brothers to take amrit by debates, guilty trips, everything else. what happens? sometimes it works, somethings it does reverse negative effect youth gets put off by sikhi all together.

In the sangat of mahapursh, if karams are good of youths who havent taken amrit, all it takes is - one bachan- amrit(khanda da amrit, naam amrit) shakla premia, answer: Satbachan...what is the energy behind that bachan? that energy is energy of naam, atamgyan/bhramgyan.

Sikhi was never been about quantity. Once again i repeat, Guru maharaj would rather have 10 jaiagaso than having 1000 of sikh youths/sikhs who are stuck at the level of shariat.

*

Ang- 1083

saraa sareeath lae ka(n)maavahu ||
Let your practice be to live the spiritual life.
thareekath tharak khoj ttolaavahu ||
Let your spiritual cleansing be to renounce the world and seek God.
maarafath man maarahu abadhaalaa milahu hakeekath jith fir n maraa ||3||
Let control of the mind be your spiritual wisdom, O holy man; meeting with God, you shall never die again. ||3|
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I fully agree with Neo bhaji.

I don't want to say anything which could make me Nindak, but these days many (NOT all) granthis/scholars are preaching only 1st level (Shariat) and the followers (people who appreciate them) of them are most rigid. They are like: Only Sikhi is the way to GOD, No sawarg, No narak, No feet touching of Sants. Some of them are even mocking Sants/Brahmgyanis on stages.

But the fact is Manjle Trikat and other levels after that are NOT possible without true Sant/Brahmgyani.

Some facts:

1st class (Manjle Shariat) - In Sikhism it is take Amrit and do path of 5 Banis. In Muslims, it is 5 Namaj. In Hindus, it is 3 Sandea.

2nd class (Manjle Trikat) - It is Naam Abyaas through Brahmgyani.

3rd class (Manjle Marfat) - Atam Gyan. Nirgun de sooj bhuj (Understand the Nirgun Parmatma/Waheguru).

4rd class (Manjle Hakikat) - Jev/Soul merges with GOD.

This parchar could only be done by true Sant/Brahmgyani. I again salute you for what you said and the way you said.

Bhul chuk de mafi

das

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Yes I noticed your Baba Jagjit Singh post on sikhsangat only got questions about rehit! But then what do we expect when one of the groups who have been most appealing to young punjabi converts in the last ten years actively propogate the rejection of katha!

I agree with much of the above, but you must be careful...sadh sangat is both the knowers (gyanis in old sense of word) and seekers (jagyasi/jagyasu). A sangat without a knower is admittedly according to nirmalay, udasis and sevapanthis not particularly useful as you've stated, but conviction is also affirmed by clear minded seekers too.

I think you'd be surprised at how many scholars and sants there are who still do katha like Baba Jagjit Singh Ji. Admittedly few videsis are interested or aware of them since they don't fit the white chola bill. I heartily recommend anyone staying in punjab for more than two weeks to watch the day's event news on local punjabi doordarshan channel and you'll find out about all yr local deras and samprda sants. Since both Baba Jagjit Singh and Baba Ishar Singh rarewale talk slightly modified advaita vedanta (unlike some Udasis and most of the remaining modern sevapanthis) you may be pleased to hear that the schooling in sanskrit vedantic shastra still continues for a few young Nirmalay at Kashi.

One query for Neo which I've mentioned before. This thing about Bhai Dya Singh samprdai...maybe on issues of maryada (even then I don't think so), but on sidhant and everything else there is no difference with all other Nirmalay. By differentiating like this I think its a bit misleading, as though there is an actual difference between the lineages coming from Bhai Dya Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh (roughly half half of over 30). To clarify what I'm talking about - the five Nirmalay from Kashi were put under the guidance of Bhai Dya Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh. From them many upsamprdais (sub-lineages) began. The people you refer to (and in the case of Rarewale, refer to themselves as) Bhai Dya Singh samprdai are actually usually Baba Bir Singh Nauragabad upsamprdai (which there are a few variations of). This is knit picking, but on these issues I feel its a bit of a diservice.

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I agree with much of the above, but you must be careful...sadh sangat is both the knowers (gyanis in old sense of word) and seekers (jagyasi/jagyasu). A sangat without a knower is admittedly according to nirmalay, udasis and sevapanthis not particularly useful as you've stated, but conviction is also affirmed by clear minded seekers too.

When I mentioned gyani/scholars/tottagyani in my orginal post, i was refering to modern day scholards, and parchar done by them in abroad like in canada, usa, uk etc. I wasnt even referring to any sampardaie kathavachik or gyani. So far gyanis/scholars that I have met from samparda are all khoji/utam jaigaso. sorry should have been more clear in my orginal post.

I think you'd be surprised at how many scholars and sants there are who still do katha like Baba Jagjit Singh Ji. Admittedly few videsis are interested or aware of them since they don't fit the white chola bill. I heartily recommend anyone staying in punjab for more than two weeks to watch the day's event news on local punjabi doordarshan channel and you'll find out about all yr local deras and samprda sants. Since both Baba Jagjit Singh and Baba Ishar Singh rarewale talk slightly modified advaita vedanta (unlike some Udasis and most of the remaining modern sevapanthis) you may be pleased to hear that the schooling in sanskrit vedantic shastra still continues for a few young Nirmalay at Kashi.

I know this is bit off topic but could you please tell the sangat what exactly is modified advaita vedanta? how the parchar done by rara sahib/harkhowale sants are different than udasi and sevapanthis. I am interested to know.

One query for Neo which I've mentioned before. This thing about Bhai Dya Singh samprdai...maybe on issues of maryada (even then I don't think so), but on sidhant and everything else there is no difference with all other Nirmalay. By differentiating like this I think its a bit misleading, as though there is an actual difference between the lineages coming from Bhai Dya Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh (roughly half half of over 30). To clarify what I'm talking about - the five Nirmalay from Kashi were put under the guidance of Bhai Dya Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh. From them many upsamprdais (sub-lineages) began. The people you refer to (and in the case of Rarewale, refer to themselves as) Bhai Dya Singh samprdai are actually usually Baba Bir Singh Nauragabad upsamprdai (which there are a few variations of). This is knit picking, but on these issues I feel its a bit of a diservice.

I don't know which post you are refferring to i think just recent one regarding sant jagjit singh ji discussion, usually i always refer to hoti mardan or rara sahib samparda as an upsamparda of bhai dya singh ji here is an example :http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?showtopic=29451&st=0&p=276279&#entry276279

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N30,

I think the point here is that the up-samparda isn't different from any other nirmallay in practices but it appears that they are presented as something different. It is like the Dam Dami Taksal claiming a lineage and then people thinking that there is some special accord given because of the lineage itself. The thing is that the majority of nirmallay are in unison about meditation being the 'accepted' mode of bhagtee. I think the misunderstanding/quirk has arised because you were addressing babaji according to his own lineage and since babaji refers alot to the mahapurakhs of this lineage; it is just convention to say 'bhai daya singh samparda' when talking to babaji.

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N30,

I think the point here is that the up-samparda isn't different from any other nirmallay in practices but it appears that they are presented as something different. It is like the Dam Dami Taksal claiming a lineage and then people thinking that there is some special accord given because of the lineage itself. The thing is that the majority of nirmallay are in unison about meditation being the 'accepted' mode of bhagtee. I think the misunderstanding/quirk has arised because you were addressing babaji according to his own lineage and since babaji refers alot to the mahapurakhs of this lineage; it is just convention to say 'bhai daya singh samparda' when talking to babaji.

Actually I never claim or intended to potray that upsamparda is different from nirmale. That was not my intention. I have in fact in many instances always labelled rara sahib/hoti mardan as nirmale upsamparda of bhai dya singh ji. In discussion with sant jagjit singh ji post, i forgot to put harkhowale as nirmale upsamparda of bhai dya singh ji which i will correct it soon.

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Today I managed to ask the foremost scholar on Nirmalay Sant Balwant Singh Kothaguru and one of the Kothari Mahants of Nirmalay, both were surprised by my question that there could be any difference at all between Bhai Dya Singh upsamprdas and Bhai Dharam Singh upsamprdas. Meaning, as Hari pointed, that by refraining to 'Bhai Dya Singh samprdais believe this' it sounds like 'in contrast to Bhai Dharam Singh ones'. A bit like saying Canadian AKJ say only sarabloh, implies others don't (which of course I am sure they do, for as we all know, mukti is decided by what you eat your cornflakes out of - ouch!)

the bit about modern scholars and gyanis was in response to what Das had written.

Udasis, well it depends and my god do they vary, but most I've spoken to are less into deeper issues of ontology, epistemology, etc (i.e. darshanas). Sevapanthis, while having a HEAVY advaita emphasis early on, place great emphasis on Sants perhaps more than I've come across elsewhere. Modified advaita, well pretty much all the metaphysics Babaji was saying in those questions was straight advaita...only the surat shabad marg bit was different. Alternatively other nirmalay go as far as suggesting there is some difference between atma and parmatma in turiya (hence tuhi), or that creation is from dynamic active consciousness of hukam rather than insentient upadhi (and hence accept similarities to vaishnav forms of vedanta).

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Guest Javanmard

With all due respect Sikhi doesn't have a shari'a. The rahit is NOT the equivalent of shari'a at all. And please write shari'a, tariqa, ma'rifa and haqiqa correctly.

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Guest Javanmard

The rahit is a personal code of behaviour and extends to Sikh community and doesn't go beyond. It does NOT deal with very important issues such as inheritance law,land disputes,taxes,status of diplomats and many more other subjects. The rahit is the equivalent of a tariqa code of conduct as found in Sufi orders or communities like the Alevi or Ahl e Haqq.

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Also javanmard i m sure you will agree with me on this, dubious maryada as promoted jatha's, and some samparda like- one way of meditation- naam dridta, one way of interpertating gurbani- viyakaran, katha being manmat, one must be sarbloh bibeki/keshadari, amritdhari(intiated via khanda amrit) in order to get entry into sachkhand, one mindset of sikhi either stuck in one samparda ideology and claim thats a only sikhi way, or stuck in tat khalsa ideology claiming thats a only sikhi way, diggin an female turks up to head level on the ground, make them eat pork so turk can purify their tats before they can be intiated into khalsa fold, discrimation against mazbhi sikhs in samparda's, dals.

All that for me tells me real maryada of sri guru gobind singh ji which is yet to be fully discovered is overshadow with an maryada shared by jathas and samparda which have some major imprints of shariaism.

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Guest Javanmard

What on earth are you talking about? Shari'a doesn't equate fanatic! Depends on the shari'a you follow. What you are talking about are all inovations post 1708 that have nothing to do with shari'a. Marriage is part of shari'a does that mean people who get married are fanatics? ludicrous!

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I think in your opnion, sharia is limited to only rules and regulations shared by muslims..right? I dont think sharia term is limited to muslims only. I never meant to imply sri guru gobind singh ji maryada given to sikhs is sharia, i m talking those elements mentioned above being sharia. I have different meaning of sharia than you. Lets just leave it at that.

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Guest Javanmard

Sorry N3O I love you but you have no idea of what shari'a is. One just can't invent no meanings to well established notions already. You see the very reason why this community messes up in terms of understanding gurbani is that people without knowledge invent themselves definitions to well established notions. Whatever you think shari'a is N3O it has nothing to do with 1400 years of fiqh which is what shari'a comes down to so please don't use that word.

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What is Shariat in Spiritualism?

Shariat is to follow certain rules/rehat IN ORDER TO purify the Bhud because pure Bhud is first requirement in order to reach GOD.

Here Sharia is NOT some set of rules defined by Muslims. Shariat exists before muslims. Even Muslim's core shariat according to rohane school is 5 Namaj, and not their defined shariat. The shariat defined by Muslims do NOT allow anyone to have a GURU in physical form. But without GURU no-one can get Mukti.

There are some steps to reach Waheguru

Shariat is the first level/step when someone wants to meet GOD. This is the admission to a ruhane school and NOT the final goal. The main reason to follow Shariat is: Bhud nu shud karna so that before further step our Bhud is pure/shud.

In Sikhism, shariat is NOT just taking Amrit, it is taking Amrit AND doing 5 banis path everyday.

If we're NOT able to purify our Bhud by following Shariat, then what's the use of Shariat. After all, levels are designed so that a student can make a slow and steady progress towards their goal.

If Bhud is purified, then there will be NO wars.

All the religions are like schools/colleges whose main aim is to teach public "How to reach GOD from WHOM we are seperated" and all schools do have 4 levels (Shariat, Trikat, Marfat, Hakikat).

Moreover, in Sutanpur, Guru Nanak Dev Ji said to Kazze that: "If you see Khuda in everyone, then you are Muslim, and if you see Ram in everyone, then you are Hindu." It means that a true Sikh should see Guru Nanak Dev Ji in everyone, if not then we're not true sikh.

But one can see this way ONLY after reaching 3rd stage which is called Marfat. Marfat is the stage under which one gets the ability to understand the Nirgun Parmatma.

I have NOT even got admission in ruhane school in this birth i.e NOT in Shariat. So, there is lot more to do in order to be ONE.

Bhul chuk de mafi

das

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Guest Javanmard

Sorry guys but you are pig ignorant about what Shari'a is. But again I am not surprised. I think you are among the only people on earth to discard 1400 of fiqh and invent your pindu interpretation of words. Ridiculous.

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Thanks javanmard for reminding that I'm pindu, it's nice to hear from someone about our roots. Moreover, from your sweet comments in last message it reflects that you're very sensible and knows how to interact with a pindu. May GOD be always by your side.

ਪੜਿਆ ਅਤੈ ਓਮੀਆ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ਅਗੈ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ॥

The accounts of the educated and the illiterate shall be judged in the world hereafter.

ਪੜਿਆ ਅਣਪੜਿਆ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

whether educated or uneducated, obtains the state of supreme dignity. ||1||

ਸੋ ਪੜਿਆ ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਬੀਨਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

He alone is educated, and he alone is a wise Pandit, who contemplates the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

das

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Guest Javanmard

Well if that's true why don't you just quit school as education doesn't seem necessary in your eyes. The topic here was shari'a and its definition not salvation. For salvation you don't need to be educated God's grace is enough but to discuss the concept of shari'a you do need education.

I find it amazing how people like you like to use gurbani (whose grammar you probably don't even master) to tell people how bad they are and how innocent and saintly you are.

I suggest you walk the walk and if I am the evil educated guy you should simply unlearn what you learnt at school and retrieve back to illiterate pindu mood. I don't know how being illiterate will get you a job but then again that's your problem.

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