amardeep Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh. is the above question asks. Is amrit meant for everyone at the first level of religion, whereas one enters the second and higher levels of religon (The Tariqat as it has been reffered to on this page) or is it means for the elite that consists of a few persons only. on the glorious day of Vaisakhi 1699 only 5 men stood up in a crowd of 40.000 men which shows how serious taking amrit is. what do you think? Is Khande da amrit at the first level of religion, or is it only meant for a few who have reached higher levels of religion? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 it's for everyone. gives a person a guru. Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars repeatedly emphasize the importance of the initiation. I don't have access to the vaars so I can't find the exacts spot for you, but you can do khoj yourself and will find it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 its neither for the masses or the elite. but its for that individual who is prepared to give the sacrifice it demands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 i think pheena hit it on the spot 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 pheena is right on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 hmm, amrit in my view is for the elite. When i say elite i mean the Warriors, for whom it was initially set up for. I mean today amrit is given out like as if it was out of a tap, there is no true maryada left apart from that at Budha Dal, Amrit was set up by Nihung Singhs (5 pyare + Sahib-E-Kamaal) and for Nihungs. For those who wish to drink death and then be ready to embrace it in the battle field. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singho Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 For those who wish to drink death and then be ready to embrace it in the battle field. Ahhhh, cute... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 "Amrit was set up by Nihung Singhs (5 pyare + Sahib-E-Kamaal) and for Nihungs" Don't forget, Guru Sahiban gave charan amrit before 1699, and that was not just for Nihangs or Shastardhaari Sikhs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 well khande da amrit is next level brother, an amrit which has mixed into it death in its second form The Khanda or "Mouth" in sanskrit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 i kind of agree with Kharag Singh... i think Khande da amrit is/was only meant for warriors, but then again, what is the amrit for the masses then, that wishes to live the life of a sant, but not that of the sipahi. and what about Nirmale, Udasis and sewa panthis... did they recieve Khande di pahul? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Well the question is if Amrit is an initiation for just the Nihangs does that mean the other Sampardas were not Worthy. Did Bhai Kanaiya Ji who were the founder of the Sevapanthis not take khande da amrit. There are fractions of the nirmala sampardas who started from Bhai Daya Singh Ji and Bhai Dharam Singh Ji. Does that mean they were nihangs or nirmalas. And Does that mean the nirmalas are not worhy of the Khanda Da Amrit Even better why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji get 5 piaray to give Baba Kaladhari Amrit and ask the Bedis to join the Khalsa. They certainly have never been nihangs? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 I think Khande de Pahul certainly had a yodha essence, inclination and responsibilty - the whole scene and atmoshere in 1699 as recorded abounds with martial AND spiritual energy - which ever version of Vasakhi one chooses to believe - particularly if you believe the one where Maharaj took each of the panj pyare into a tent and asked them to perform Chatka. But the Gurmantar is also recited and certain banian read over the amrit to infuse the spiritual energy and obligation. I don't believe Khande da Amrit was for Nihangs only, but for initiates in general, who had a martial obligation none the less. Although it may sound corny or commercial, surely some Khalsa initiates could/would specialise in other areas other than war... especially as the term Khalsa existed and was used before 1699 i.e. by Bhagat Kabir Ji. In addition, if as according to some versions of history, Maharaj asked the charan amrit to be spilt in the river and fresh water to be brought for Khande de Pahul, then Maharaj was replacing charan amrit and therefore Sikhs of all inclinations were to now take Khande de Pahul....?? Nihangs/Akalis were the Magnum Opus of the fighting Khalsa, no one denies they held that special place. But this is where maryada becomes an interesting topic, was there only one maryada for Khalsa... or different maryadai for Nihangs, scholars/saints, regular grihishti Khalsai etc.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 i woudl go for masses, probably cos Guru Ji wanted Sant -sipahi, not justs sants only , or sipahi only. there has to be a balance , so surely the siphai part would require khanda bate amrit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 a nihung to start off is a siphai when he gains enough gyaan and obtains a farla (gyaan ganga) he become sant, therefore becoming Sant Siphai 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 whereas traditionally wiv Sikhi, the sikhs gained gian, then sipahi? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 well the way to look at it is that today how many of the sikhs who take amrit live up to sant siphai? do ANY of them train in shastar vidiya or do most of them just learn gurbaani and kirtan etc? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam1825 Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Kharag Singh you bring up a valid point but at the same time i have met many nihang singhs in India who are more wworied about their next Jhatka for dinner and their shaheedi tegh to even remember the name of God. I can remember going to see the Nihangs at the Jor mela to see Baba Santa Singh and Baba Balbir Singh. It was similar to a scientology convention where i have to pay numbers of nihangs money in order to get closer and closer to the sants to do darshan. But as i said earlier what about Bhai Kahaiya who started the Sewapanthi movement. He was not a nihang. Same goes for two of the Panj Piaray Bhai Daya Singh and Bhai dharam Singh who have a number of nirmala sampardas and upsampardas coming from them. Lastly the Bedis who Guru Gobind Singh Ji brought into the khalsa themselves. The Bedis have never been been nihangs. Other the Baba Sahib Singh Ji and Baba Bikramjit Singh the others were never shasterdhari. This is the one time i can say Bahadur Singh is right about tribalism. when members on the forum who associate themselves with the nihangs, nirmalas, etc make claims to such things as the ritual of baptism in order to undermine other groups 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystical Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Nihangs used to learn Shastar Vidiya from the Udasis in underground caves when the Udasis were Shastardhari. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted August 28, 2007 Report Share Posted August 28, 2007 Kharag Singh you bring up a valid point but at the same time i have met many nihang singhs in India who are more wworied about their next Jhatka for dinner and their shaheedi tegh to even remember the name of God. I can remember going to see the Nihangs at the Jor mela to see Baba Santa Singh and Baba Balbir Singh. It was similar to a scientology convention where i have to pay numbers of nihangs money in order to get closer and closer to the sants to do darshan. But as i said earlier what about Bhai Kahaiya who started the Sewapanthi movement. He was not a nihang. Same goes for two of the Panj Piaray Bhai Daya Singh and Bhai dharam Singh who have a number of nirmala sampardas and upsampardas coming from them. Lastly the Bedis who Guru Gobind Singh Ji brought into the khalsa themselves. The Bedis have never been been nihangs. Other the Baba Sahib Singh Ji and Baba Bikramjit Singh the others were never shasterdhari. This is the one time i can say Bahadur Singh is right about tribalism. when members on the forum who associate themselves with the nihangs, nirmalas, etc make claims to such things as the ritual of baptism in order to undermine other groups brother kam this isnt about undermining another group. Nirmalas are utam in their own place and sewapanthis in their own. after seeing your perspective i think that (now this is my own conclusion) amrit being pure death mixed into water, has two aspects, for those who need it for martial purposes take it as a metophrical/literal embracement of death. And since Akaal is known also as death, amrit can provide bhramgyaan too. Now nirmale/udasis who wish to enhance their bhramgyan take amrit. Comming to sewapanthis i must say this is a grey area for me to draw up a conclusion. but please ponder and maybe even correct this perspective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Bhai Daya Singh And Bhai Dharam Singh still fouhgt in the wars between Sikhs and moghals yeah? Would that kind of make them Nihangs? its very true that few Sikhs who take amrit are actually sant sipahi, from what ive seen. But again this is due to us oursleves. Why dont the panth provide for this? why dont those who know how, help others? this is the only way the knowledge will expand. I remember once Nihnag Niddar Singh saying shastervidya art is more or less forgaotten now, and only a handful were holding onto it. Same as Raag Kirtan. But if the Khande ki pahul was only for nihangs, then surely some of the great saints of yestercentury would have siad so? chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 well khande da amrit is next level brother, an amrit which has mixed into it death in its second form The Khanda or "Mouth" in sanskrit. Ah yes, the famous Balbir Singh recording from the 1980s... ...so what is the "first form" and "third form" if the Khanda is the "second form"... ...also, what is the level below, if "khande da amrit is next level"...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Ahhhh, cute... Yes quite! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jassasingh Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 prithmo rehat yehi jaan paul piyo khande dhar !!!! ok i dont if its correct or not i just read it on some sticker years back on some wall ... if its correct and from some rehanama that means khande di paul is first rehat .... basicaly when a person goes for amrit sanchar then he is told sikh rehat mool mantra and guru mantra officially ... like their are number of children they represent mass and elite will go to school and give exam like in india only 40 % go to school .... now if we look at this level the elite in previous level will represent mass here who will give exam but only elite will get first division ... if u go one step ahead this elite with first division will become mass and so on ... so amrit is for all (masses) but only few (elite) can use it as source of every thing needed to get in dargha of dasme pita ... but i dont like requests these day from gurudwaras and other being made to take amrit it is being forced on children ... today amrit sanchars look more like emotional blackmailing rather then amrit ... i dont want to name this sant but i was their for the darshans standing in line waiting and ahead me was a mona guy ...when his turn came he bowed and sant ji hold his hand and began saying to amrit chak lay hun ... and that guy with his closed lips was saying no ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 .. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kharag Singh Posted August 29, 2007 Report Share Posted August 29, 2007 Ah yes, the famous Balbir Singh recording from the 1980s... ...so what is the "first form" and "third form" if the Khanda is the "second form"... ...also, what is the level below, if "khande da amrit is next level"...? Indeed it is his quote brother, before ALL creation god created the khanda, therefore the first form of God is nirgun akaal, second sargun khanda third shrishti (pantheism) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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