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Mata Sahib Kaur Not The Giver Of Pataseh!


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What I want to know is: how reliable is the account of who stood up and took khanda amrit from the Guru, on that day? Is it really likely that such diverse individuals would have come forward on their own initiative, in such a caste-stratified society? What I'm getting at is: perhaps to emphasise the supernatural takes away from the extraordinary leadership qualities of Guru Gobind Singh. (hint hint: a good general leaves nothing to chance)

If the pataseh account is not reliable, then that throws into doubt others aspects for sure.

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"perhaps to emphasise the supernatural takes away from the extraordinary leadership qualities of Guru Gobind Singh"

Thats a v-good point.

Whether or not miracles were performed by Guru Sahiban is a seperate but related topic, going back to Baba Atal Rai, why was Guru Hargobind Sahib upset with his son? This should answer the question re the raising of the dead. In any case, the account does not match any of the other existing accounts.

Did our Guru's not show us how to live in Gods will - and utilise our mind, body and soul to achieve our goals rather than ridhi sidhi?

From what I have read of Dasam Pita's life, they never drew on supernatural power, their supernatural feats were achieved naturally, so as to give hope, education, conviction, demonstration and example to the Sikhs.

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A common belief among the sangat where i live is that Sikhism is a religion based on logic. Therefore democracy, 100% equality between the genders and other notions are herefore a natural part of Sikhism as it is acceptable for the intelect. Kesh it not kept because it is the sign of the Guru, but rather because this is the way God created us(again using the mind to come up with things and explanations).

missionary work is also forbidden as this is against the concept of respecting other religions, and the concept of Gurus performing miracles are also abandoned, UNLESS ofcourse there was a good reason for the Gurus to do so(saving lives etc).

This is the view on sikhism in my area, but if the Gurus were only "allowed" to perform miracles in times of life-death situations, then why did Guru Nanak perform the miracle of traveling througout the khands in Bagdad? This was an act he performed in order to proove his stance, and not because his holiness was trying to save someones life.

Guru Gobind Singh might have executed the panj pyares, as this is what was required for challenge of Maharaj "If you truly love me, then serve me your head) I see nothing wrong in Guru Maharaj executing the panj pyares and giving them a "new birth".

Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj!!

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It is indeed very interesting.. I wouldn't suggest for one moment that Guru couldn't have brought the dead back to life. I think on account of his considerable tapas energy alone, this would be a very minor feat for him. However, on the question of whether he exerted this particular power on that day, that much I think is still uncertain.

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"Whether or not miracles were performed by Guru Sahiban is a seperate but related topic, going back to Baba Atal Rai, why was Guru Hargobind Sahib upset with his son? This should answer the question re the raising of the dead."

actually it doesn't. The ''upset'' was b/c the action was not in line with Hukum. Guru Sahibs beheading of the punj was fully in line with hukum.

"Did our Guru's not show us how to live in Gods will - and utilise our mind, body and soul to achieve our goals rather than ridhi sidhi?

From what I have read of Dasam Pita's life, they never drew on supernatural power, their supernatural feats were achieved naturally, so as to give hope, education, conviction, demonstration and example to the Sikhs."

Actually, numerous times the Gurus used power. For example, when the Khalsa fought with the hill rajas they were winning against superior numbers. out of haumai, they began thinking that it was due to their might that they were winning. The Guru withdrew his grace and they began to suffer large losses and begged maharaj for forgiveness. It was with his power that the Khalsa were such incredible warriors.

There are numerous instances of miracles being shown. in fact, even the Guru's sants showed miracles at times - all this is not against Gurmat.

The fact that any bhramgiani who you might ask about this topic will unequivocally say the Punj were beheaded and than had their heads reattached by the Guru is also powerful evidence.

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I agree with Xylitol. Sometimes we try to use our tiny intellects to understand Maharaj ji and bring them to our level. At the end of all the arguments, what will have been achieved? Nobody's going to change their point of view.

Why not ask Guru Sahib themselves what happened that day? They haven't gone anywhere......

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Guru Gobind Singh might have executed the panj pyares, as this is what was required for challenge of Maharaj "If you truly love me, then serve me your head)

This expression really gives me some pause for thought.. "Giving' one's 'head' to another is normally a symbolic act, right? If you saw it in print other than in the context of the 1699 event, you would read it as a metaphorical expression. In Celtic mythology what happens between Sir Gawain and the [Jolly!] green giant (a classic tale of reciprocity perhaps mirrored in Guru taking amrit from the Punj)? I read it like this: Gawain is not only true to his oath and has balls enough to face the axe, but he also uses tactical deception on the giant, to avoid being killed. There is obviously more to this story than meets the eye. Guru knew about stuff which the majority of people are struggling with today.

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navjot wrote:

"dear niranjana, i did not even know who Mata Khivi was. Given some of the contributions of the singhsabha revisionist lot, the input of a 'gyani' hardly fills me with faith. these dates you say you refer to are also being taken for granted. there is arguement over the details of vaisakhi so you expect them to have got the dates of Mata Sahib Devi marrying Guru Gobind Singh correct?

i do not know much about the nirmalas but i have come to believe that the udasins have an extensive literature. i wonder if they report anything about the event."

Navjot, don’t worry about hitting people’s nerves, otherwise it’ll hold you back from asking some valid questions. I trust you have had the chance to look up Mata Khivi Jee, there is plenty of information available on the net (as well as in texts). It has become fashionable these days to criticise the Singh Sabha movement for a whole host of things (and I am not exception to this trend) however, we should also consider their predecessors and their ‘revisionist’ tendencies as well as their penchant for using a liberal amount of imagination and folklore when it suited them. The title ‘Gyani’ however is not to be confused with what that term commonly refers to today, as it was a mark of education (nowadays almost the opposite!), Gyani Gyan Singh Nirmala however is a classic example of someone that many anti-Singh Sabha commentators like to quote as some supposedly reliable, however conveniently gloss over facts such as his blatant lying as to his Dulat-Jatt lineage, which he seeks to link back to Bhai Mani Singh Shaheed, thereby seeking to re-define Bhai Mani as a Jatt-Sikh (in reality, Bhai Sahib was from a non-Jatt background), however this leads back to my earlier comments on personal agendas and influences. Back to the point at hand, however, Gyani Gyan Singh Nirmala’s account of Vaisakhi is one that would appear to tally the most with modern day interpretations.

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Matheen wrote:

“I agree with Xylitol. Sometimes we try to use our tiny intellects to understand Maharaj ji and bring them to our level. At the end of all the arguments, what will have been achieved? Nobody's going to change their point of view. Why not ask Guru Sahib themselves what happened that day? They haven't gone anywhere......â€

Matheen Jee,

This type of argument is very typical of many modern day living traditions and is actually counterproductive, I’ve seen it occur in all segments of Sikh society as well as Hindu and Islamic discussions (including the much famed intellectual and sophisticated Shia segments). It is understandable from the point of view of the emotions involved within any living tradition, however my fundamental problem with this type of attitude is that it encourages one to stop questioning and hence prevents any critical analysis, hence essentially ‘dumbing down’ the individual, group, community etc.

This is fine if one lives in a pseudo-utopian life (like that depicted in the film “The Villageâ€), however in reality such societies do not survive and most of us do not live in them, so when a commentator from another background comes forth and raises the same questions on grounds of critical analysis/historical study, we (individually or collectively) are unable to answer them. A good example being Hew McLeod and the likes of Harjot Oberoi and particularly Dr Pashaura Singh, instead of treating their works as historical or textual analysis, since we have chosen to gloss over these supposedly difficult or controversial areas, when challenged we are unable to respond in anyway other than to attack the individual and write diatribes of nonsensical retaliations which do exactly the same - for those lovers of logic, this is 100% a case of Ad Hominem Fallacy.

As highlighted by Javanmard, “The issue…is not the power of the Gurus but the veracity and authenticity of the manuscriptâ€

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