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Polygamy in sikhism?


Jogi
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Jogi Singh,

can you please bring the evidences and refrences to the claim you just made???

You do that. In the meantime, i m goin to try pointed out the misconceptions from both ways.

Here is what i came across from other sites-

"Why did Guru Gobind Singh have more than one wife? How many marriages did Guru Gobind Singh have?

The wrong impression that the Guru had more than one wife was

created by those writers who were ignorant of punjabi culture.

Later authors accepted those writings regarding more than one

marriage of the Guru and presented other important people usually had

more than one wife as a symbol of their being great and superior to

the common man. Guru Gobind Singh, being a true king, was justified

in their eyes to have more than one wife. This is actually incorrect.

In the Punjab, there are two and sometimes three big functions

connected with a marriage, i.e., engagement, wedding and Muklawa.

Big gatherings and singings are held at all these three functions.

In many cases, engagements were held as soon as one had passed the

baby stage. Even today, engagements at 8-12 years age are not

uncommon in some interior parts of the country. The wedding is

perfomred a couple of years after the engagement. After the

wedding, it takes another couple of years for the bride to move in

with her in-laws and live there. This is called Muklawa. Dowry and

other gifts to the bride are usually given at the time of this

ceremony to help her to establish a new home.

A big befitting function and other joyful activities were held

at Anandpur, according to the customs, at the time of the engagement

of the Guru. The bride, Mata Jeeto Ji, resided in Lahore which was

the capital of the Mughal rulers, who were not on good terms with

the Gurus. When the time for the marriage ceremony came, it was not

considered desirable for the Guru to go to Lahore alongwith Sikhs in

large numbers. Furthermore, it would involve a lot of inconvenience

to the Sangat, young and old, who wished to witness the marriage of

the Guru. THerefore, as mentioned in the Sikh chronicles, Lahore

was 'brought' to Anandpur Sahib for the marriage instead of the Guru

going to Lahore. A scenic place, a couple of miles to the north of

Anandpur was developed into a nice camp for the marriage. This place

was named Guru Ka Lahore. People going to Anandpur visit this place

as well. The bride was brought to this place by her parents and the

marriage was celebrated with a very huge gathering attending the

ceremony.

The two elaborate functions, one at the time of engagement and

the other at the time of the marriage of the Guru, gave the outside

observers the impression of two marriages. They had the reason to

feel like that because a second name was also there, i.e., Mata

Sundari Ji. After the marriage, there is a custom in the Punjab to

give a new affectionate name to the bride by her in-laws. Mata

Jeeto Ji because of her fine features and good looks, was named

Sundari (beautiful) by the Guru's mother. The two names and two

functions gave a cause to the outsiders to believe that the Guru had

two wives. In fact, the Guru had one wife with two names as

explained above.

There is one more very important function in the life of the

Guru and the Sikhs. It took place in 1699 when the Guru founded the

Khalsa Panth. For preparation of Amrit, he took a Khanda and a Bata

(bowl) and asked Mata Sahib Kaur to bring Patasas (puffed sugar) for

adding to the water in the Bata. Thus, Guru Gobind Singh and Mata

Sahib Kaur jointly particpated in preparing Amrit. Alongwith

firmness like steel, sweetness is another great character of the

Khalsa, gifted respectively by Guru Gobind Singh and Mata Sahib Kaur

to them. Whereas Guru Gobind Singh is recognized as the spiritual

father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is recognized as the spiritual

mother of the Khalsa.

Again, people not conversant with the Amrit ceremony mistakenly

assume that Mata Sahib Kaur was the wife of Guru Gobind Singh. As

Guru Gobind Singh is the spiritual father but not hte physical

father of the Khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur is the spiritual mother of the

Khalsa but not the physical wife of the Guru Gobind Singh.

Because of their ignorance of the Punjabi culture and the Amrit

ceremony, some writers mistook these three names of hte women in the

life of Guru Gobind Singh as the names of three wives. Another

reason for this misunderstanding is that the parents of Mata Sahib

Kaur had decided to marry her to Guru Gobind Singh. When the

proposal was brought for discussion at Anandpur, the Guru said that

he could not have another wife because he was allready married. The

dilemma before the parents of the girl was that, the proposal having

become public, no Sikh would be willing to marry her. The Guru

agreed for her stay at Anandpur but without accepting her as his

wife. The question areose, as every woman desires to have a child,

how she could have one without being married. The Guru said, "She

will be the mother of a great son who will live forever and be known

all over the world." The people understoon the hidden meaning of his

statement only after the Guru associated Mata Sahib Kaur with

preparing Amrit by bringing Patasas. It is, therefore, ignorant to

consider Mata Sahib Kaur as the worldy wife of Guru Gobind Singh."

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/Youth.nsf/c4c37733ae589b 948725657e000dc8f5/5ff5b3970ea7802287256c7500017ec4!OpenDocument

If still some of the people here thinks that above post claims are true

Is it possible at that stage of conciousness to see marriage between a man and woman only as a relationship for the purpose of procreating and nothing else? No "psedo-love" made up of emotional attachment, insecurities, jealousy, anger, lust and other stuff that most couples define as love. I mean most people have realationships for a sense of self justification. Using the idea that the other person completes them and so on, when infact it is the naam that completes a human. I would say even though a person may think they love thier partner that relationship is almost wholy existent for self-interests. When self interests and Ego are no longer supported in the western world we find alot of divorces and such because of the cultural freedoms here. For a person who through Guru di Kirpa transends all, could that man not procreate with more that one enlightend woman and take care of all of the inherited resopnsibilities justly? Taking into account that the shallow emotions of jealousy, anger, and thinking the spouse is "mine" have been quelled?

I hope I'm not loosing anybody with this train of thought..

I am not saying here that polygamy may be a option for you or I, because we are not on that enlightend level, and chances are that it would not work and is not practicle for us because of this reason. Hypothetically though could it not work for enlightend people and be in the will of God?

and kings like maharja ranjit singh(more than 5 wives)......how come?? we are supposed to practise monogamy (one marriage)!!arent we????

Yes i heard this claim. Again can you please provide refrences??

Even if this claim is true. All i would say Maharaja ranjit singh wasnt enlightened soul. He has done loads of bad deeds as well as good deeds . so this claim has no relevence in sikh-history.

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.....and kings like maharja ranjit singh(more than 5 wives)......how come??

King and Sikh are two different life styles. Ranjit Singh was great leader/king but it doesn't mean he was following Sikhism properly. Just search on his life and you would know. If he had 5 wives then it should not affect Sikhs or Sikhism because he was a part of Sikhism not Sikhism. It's like you are a Sikh but don't follow it properly so we can't go ask Sikhs that why you are not following it properly.

we are supposed to practise monogamy (one marriage)!!arent we????

Not just that but lots of other things as well.

Anyhow, I will recommend that you read below discussions and then come to any conclusion.

Guru Hargobind's wives

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....0F?OpenDocument

Need to give my sister some advice, help!

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....11?OpenDocument

take care

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i used to make a big deal on whether guruji had 1 or 2 wives. it did sortov matter to me. then i realised a number of things:

1) in the state of a ultra gurmukh, a wife is for little more than (if wanted) procreation and sharing of spiritual bliss. guru ji had NO kaam at all, this is well known, and can be seen from SGGS. therefore his reasons for having more than one wife are not kaam related.

2) did guruji want more than one wife? well the parents of the gurus chose their wives. guru gobind singh did NOT want to get married at all, he wanted to live a warrior life, but eventually his parents convinced him and settled down. it wasnt like prophet mohammed, who TOLD ayeshas dad that he wanted to marry him. an example is guru tegh bahadur, he came out of jail/prison and he suddenly found that whilst he was in there two women had proposed to him!

3) does it really matter? there is conflicting evidence either way. there are VERY good arguments for and against. why bother? there are no good historical accounts so we will never know the truth (till we are true gurmukh, or had mukti). there are more controversial issues that CAN affect ur spirituality, eg bibek, raagmalla, dasam granth.

oh yeah and also, maharajah ranjit singh is a TOSSER. sorry for the naughty language. he was caught having illegitimate sex with a muslim woman, and he had a BIG booze problem. he was not a good sikh (good general tho).

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Gurfateh

Unfortunately historical texts don't support modern Sikh assumptions about Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives.

Nabha's 'Mahan Kosh' has three entries for each wife. It also refers to the fact that there is a Gurdwara at near Anandpur Sahib, which is the site that Guru ji himself cremated Mata Jeeto. She died before 1700 (the actual year evades me right now).

Both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri have hukamaname acredited to them from after Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Giani Ishar Singh Nara's work 'Safarnama and Zafarnama' points out this modern misinterpretation and refers to an inscription made inside one historical Gurdwara in delhi (I'll fish out the name later).

A friend pointed out that Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwala of Damdami Taksal himself wrote that Guru ji had three wives.

It helps if those who feel otherwise, could provide historical evidence rather than modern hearsay. I might for example state that King Kong lives at the end of my street, but until I can provide evidence, it is nothing more than hear-say.

The argument that 'authors who claim Guru ji had three wives were naive of the Punjabi tradition of providing the wife with another name after marriage' does not wash, due to the date of Mata Jeeto's cremation date (and related samadh/Gurdwara), the fact that Mata Sundri issued hukamname after Guru ji and that Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha (a Singh Sabhian) could hardly be accused of being naive of punjabi traditions.

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Dear Sikhs,

This is a non-issue, the fact is that SGGS and Sikhism have a clear message that men and women are equal. The Gurus were not stupid, they would not contradict their own teachigs, otherwise they would be hypocrites. There is NO evidence whatsoever of any Guru having more than one wife, all these are just British Christian missionary inventions. It is not for Sikhs to disprove but for others to prove the assertion. Until then, it is nothing more than hearsay and as good as false! It would not even stand up in a court of law!

GURUS HAD ONE WIFE! PERIOD!

Kind Regards,

MI

P.S. Having more than one wife contradicts the law of equality, how is it treating a woman with respect if you expect her to share your love with another woman! This is absurd!

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khushwant singh in his book " History of the sikhs volume-1" pg 50-51 mentions 3 wives of guru hargobind ji (damodari,nanaki and marwahi) and three wives of guru gobind singh ji ( sundari, jito and sahib devan)....and that sahibzada ajit singh was born to sundari, and sahibzadas jujhar singh, zorawar singh and fateh singh were born to jito.

P raghunath rai also mentions the same in his book "history of punjab vol-2"...and his book is the prescribed text for the degree courses of Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar !!.....how do i know that? well i did my degree from this uni and read his books ! apalling !

How can some people say that the gurus did not have more than one wife when the universities of punjab say they did?? If the gurus having more than one wife is wrong wouldnt AKAL TAKHT have opposed it???where is the ruling by the akal takht on this matter??

I cannot digest the fact that the gurus had more than one wife.....i dont want to beleive its true just like a few others in here,,but the history says otherwise........and it is accepted in punjab ,,the birth place of sikhism!! i wonder why no one debates to wat is being taught in the unis....and by doing so we are accepting that the gurus had more than one wife......forget about debating no one even says that its a controversial and unsettled matter....how can one include that in the curriculum?

am gonna go the local gurdwara today and argue about this cause they have put an article on the notice board which mentions multiple wives of the gurus!!!! i want the source.......ill post watever feedback i get

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khushwant singh in his book " History of the sikhs volume-1" pg 50-51 mentions 3 wives of guru hargobind ji (damodari,nanaki and marwahi) and three wives of guru gobind singh ji ( sundari, jito and sahib devan)....and that sahibzada ajit singh was born to sundari, and sahibzadas jujhar singh, zorawar singh and fateh singh were born to jito.

P raghunath rai also mentions the same in his book "history of punjab vol-2"...and his book is the prescribed text for the degree courses of Guru Nanak Dev University, Amritsar !!.....how do i know that? well i did my degree from this uni and read his books ! apalling !

How can some people say that the gurus did not have more than one wife when the universities of punjab say they did??

And where did the university of Punjab get it's information from? Just becuase they something does not make it true!

If the gurus having more than one wife is wrong wouldnt AKAL TAKHT have opposed it???where is the ruling by the akal takht on this matter??

That's because it never happend! How can Akal Takht oppose something which never happend? How can I put you in jail for a murder you have not commited?

I cannot digest the fact that the gurus had more than one wife.....i dont want to beleive its true just like a few others in here,,but the history says otherwise........

Where does it say? SHOW ME ONE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT, not because someone said so!

and it is accepted in punjab ,,the birth place of sikhism!!

So what? 3 billion people don't believe in EVOLUTION, but still it is a SCIENTIFIC FACT!

i wonder why no one debates to wat is being taught in the unis....

LAZINESS! Who cares attitude is prevailent these days...

and by doing so we are accepting that the gurus had more than one wife......forget about debating no one even says that its a controversial and unsettled matter....how can one include that in the curriculum?

People are stupid, they make mistakes, they do not realise the seriousness of something.

am gonna go the local gurdwara today and argue about this cause they have put an article on the notice board which mentions multiple wives of the gurus!!!! i want the source.......ill post watever feedback i get

IT'S BS! TELL THE GURDWARA TO REMOVE IT!

Kind Regards,

MI

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Gurfateh

Mission Impossible, I have posted the numerous references (including the actual site at which Mata Sundri was cremated)

please kindly state your references for proving that these sources are incorrect, other than your own assumptions and hear-say.

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Gurfateh

Mission Impossible, I have posted the numerous references (including the actual site at which Mata Sundri was cremated)

Where? I can't see any in this thread! :roll:

please kindly state your references for proving that these sources are incorrect,

Hello! Any body home? I do not have to disprove something which is false in the first place, I do not have to disprove a negative! Where are your sources? What you have stated is HEARSAY!

other than your own assumptions and hear-say.

I am not making any assumptions or hearsay, I am stating facts, when someone makes an assertion which is not common knowledge (like Bush is the President!), the onus is on them to provide evidence for their assertions! You have provided NONE on this thread, please provide your evidence, until then, what you say is BS! :roll:

Kind Regards,

MI

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Gurfateh

Another reference;

Max Macauliffe's 'Sikh Religion' (1909) Volume V, pages 2, 3, 51, 55, 59, 60, 95, 219, 240; among these pages it lists the three wives, when he married them, who gave birth to which Sahibzadae, the fact that Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Kaur were sent to Delhi.

Using the notes from Macauliffe, he states that Mata Jeeto gave birth to Sahibzadae Zorawar Siingh in Sambat year 1747 and that this comes from 'Suraj Prakash' by Kavi Santokh Singh and Gurbilas literature.

You can find copies of the hukamname acredited to Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Kaur in Ganda Singh's 'Hukamnamae' book, issued in the post-Guru Gobind Singh ji era.

Mata Sundri's angeetha (cremation place) is Gurdwara Bala Sahib in New Delhi, whereas Mata Jeeto's is at Gurdwara Agampur at Anandpur Sahib who is recorded in the historical texts as passing away in 1700.

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Hey ppl.. As long as u don't have proof don't raise that issue. If our guru ji had two wife's (just a view, ) then its ok too. cuz be believe that our gurus never done anything wrong. they must be having good reason to have second wife.

In my views, today sikhs dont' suppose to keep two wifes. this will be injustice for both of wife's. Cuz u can't love equal with both. also this will bring problem in your life. as we can see in our culture if a married man or women look upon other sex , how the husband and wife react to that. lets put it other way, how about if a woman have two husband?? Think about this, is it possible?? Just apply the same rule over man too. You will get your answer??? Sorry if i am wrong ??? rab rakha.

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