N30 Paji, whilst I think open respectful and civilised debate is good for the Panth ...

We (all of us, myself included) cannot afford to take our eyes of bigger Panthic objectives that we all agree upon.

Thus how we tackle the menace of drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, caste biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty afflicting our Panth should be our main overall focus. But if debate can make all realise that everyone reveres Dashmesh Pita equally that is good too as hopefully that can help push us towards the Unity that we need to ensure single united Sangat Gurdwara's in every pind and locality in the West and ensuring 100% literacy globally.

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Paapi Ji there is much more to learn from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Sikhs should focus on fully learning the Gurmat lessons in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji first rather than worshipping as an equal to Maharaj the charitars 21,22, 23 that Piara S. Padam falsely alleges relate to Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's own life!

Paapiman, Raagmala, Singh123, Harjot8963, chatanga1 pls clarify who you consider the King of Anandpur Sahib?

Harjot8963 and paapiman Ji sidhi gal da sidha jawab vi dedo na yaaro? :-) 

So Harjot Ji + Paapi Ji without relying on video's or rhetorical questions to avoid the pertinent questions

... Can you kindly directly answer the question in red above?

Paapi Ji, this is what Piara S. Padam alleges:

and debunked by Gurpreet Singh Sumra

Anoop Kaur, Girlfriend of Guru Gobind Singh

(as per Piara Singh Padam)?

- Gurpreet Singh Sumra

Piara Singh Padam

a well known writer who has written many books. In one of his books titled “Dasam Granth Darshan”, Padam has crossed all the limits by saying that some of the sexcapades in erotica known as Charitropakhyan from Sexy Granth also known as Dasam Granth are actual stories, that occurred with Guru Gobind Singh himself.

The stories according to Padam that happened with Guru Gobind Singh ji are eroticas/charitars 16,21,22 and 23 from eroticpakhyan/charitropakhyan.

We will talk about the story of Anoop Kaur, which is in erotica 21, but briefly touch the other erotica/charitar which Padam has attributed to Guru Gobind Singh ji.

Erotica/Charitar 16:
Dohara “teer satudarv ke huto rehat raye sukh paye
Darab het tih thaur hi ramjani ik aayi...”)

Story in brief: Note: king/raja as per Padam is Guru Gobind Singh

A king used to live happily by the bank of satluj river, where a prostitute came to live. She was very beautiful, she got attracted towards Raja, but the Raja didn’t give a damn about her. Then she made the appearance of jogi(hermit) and went into the court of Raja. Raja saw that jogi and thought that he should learn some “jantar mantar “ from that jogi.

So secret arrangements were made and at midnight Raja went there to learn Jantar Mantar. Jogi told Raja to bring Rice,flowers and GOOD ALCOHOL/SHARAB. Then Jogi told King that I will show you magic/chamatkar, I will change gender, as male I will teach you Jantar Mantar and as female I will have sexual intercourse with you.

King said one who teaches Mantar is like Father and Mother, how can I have Sexual Intercourse with you?

Then jogi said that I made this appearance to meet you, now have sex with me, come and lie down on my bed.

If you will try to run then I will make noise and will get you caught as thief and if you will not have SEX with me then I will hurl abuses at you.

Then she pleads with King to have Sex with her, King then tells her that I came to learn Mantar, I will not have sex with you. She tried all the means but could not convince the King to have sexual intercourse with her.

Then she went out and started shouting chor-chor/thief, listening to it people came there. Then she told(people) them that I was just shouting as I had a bad dream. When people left, she told King, that have Sex with me or I will get you caught.

Then king thought that I am in a tight position, if I will have intercourse with her, and if a son is born he will become a pimp and if daughter is born she will become a prostitute.

So King told her to bring “post,bhang,afim,sharab” marijuana,opium,alcohol

Dohara "post,bhang,afeem bahu gehari bhang ghutaai Turat taran layawat bhai mad sat waar chuaai"

Alcohol was obtained after seven rounds of sex. Then after consuming these intoxicants she passed out, then King gave her 60 mohars and ran away.

Erotica/Charitar 21,22,23:
There was a rich lady Anoop kaur, in Anandpur. She was attracted towards Guru Gobind Singh, so she called Magan Das ,Guru Saabs Servant and sent a message that if Guru Gobind Singh ji wants to learn Bhagauti Mantar, then Guru Saab should go and meet her at night.

When Guru Gobind Singh reached there She said she wants to have sexual intercourse with Guru Gobind Singh ji, when Guru Saab refused then she said that you should then pass through(under) my legs. Guru Gobind Singh ji said ,that person will pass through your legs who is impotent and can’t perform sexually:

"Noop kaur yo kahi bhog mau so piye kariye...
aaj humare saath mitar ruchi so rat kariye
ho natar chhado tang tare abb hoye nikariye...
Tang tare so jaayi kel ke jahe na aawe
Baith nipunsak rahe rain sigar na bajawe..."

(charitar 21,part 27-29)

Then when she could not convince Guru Gobind Singh ji, she started shouting chor-chor/thief, Guru Saab started running but was chased and surrounded by other people. Then Guru Gobind Singh ji slapped her brother and took off her brothers turban and told people that this is the thief. Guru Gobind Singh left his shoe there.

Then in the morning Guru Gobind Singhji summoned Anoop Kaur to his court, and told her that what you did was not right---, and at the end Guru Gobind Singh ji asked her for forgiveness and fixed a pension of 20,000 rupees half yearly for Anoop Kaur:

"chhima karo ab triya tume bahur naa kariye raandh
Bees sahansa taka tise dayi chhimai baandh"

(charitar 23,last part) )

Now the point to think is that if this happened with Guru Gobind Singh ji:

1. It means Guru Gobind Singh ji used to tell Sikhs to read and follow Gurbani and himself used to learn Jantar Mantars.

2. Why would Guru Saab learn bhagauti mantar and why would they ask for forgiveness?

3. Great and fearless personality,Guru Gobind Singh, who challenged the tyrant rulers was so afraid of some woman that she started saying chor-chor, and Guru Gobind Singh started running leaving behind his shoes and blanket?

4. Can a woman threaten Guru Gobind Singh, and say that I will get you caught by saying that you are thief?

5. Why did Guru Gobind Singh fixed a pension of 20000?, a large amount even today,not to mention that time.

6. Guru Gobind Singh used to make people consume bhang/marijuana,afeem/opium,sharaab/alcohol?

This is clearly the writing of some drug and sex addict. Whenever the writer or poet feels urge to have some intoxicants he then starts mentioning them. It is also clear from this Erotica and Sexy Granth/Dasam Granth that the poet used to ENJOY sexual intercourse after consuming intoxicants like bhang, afeem, dode, sharab.

Shame on such Sikhs who say that this is the real story of Guru Gobind Singh ji. Wake up Sikhs! It is high time such writers and writings should be condemned. Such book should not even be there in libraries of Gurdwaras rather they should be burnt and banned from further publications.

Sant Samaj,Dere wale babe, Taksali support this Granth at the behest of Hindutva Agencies, because they don’t want Sikhs to read bani in Guru Granth Sahib. They want them to get attached to these sexy stories and want to divide them.

This is the only purpose of the Govt. funded agency called Sant Samaj, to divide Sikhs and declare them as Hindus.

Former Sewadar (Jathedar) of Akal Takht Puran Singh openly declared that Sikhs are offsprings of Luv and Kush.

This Sexy Granth also declares that Guru Nanak is from the family/khandaan of Luv and Guru Gobind Singh from the family of Kush?? Message is clear, Sant Samaj ,Govt. funded agency, wants to declare Sikhs as Hindus.I will write in other article about this Luv Kush story.

It is the duty of every Sikh to challenge who so ever says that this Sexy Granth is the pen man ship of Guru Gobind Singh.

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Articles/9

It seems incredible to me SikhKhoj Paji that these people keep a straight face claiming to be Sikhs whilst asserting that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was the King of Anandpur mentioned in those charitars 21,22 and 23. I would like to see even a single person on this site defend Padam's point but I am pretty confident nobody will have the himmat to denigrate Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj openly. 

N30 Paji the juxtaposition of Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib with Triya Charitar was only done in 1897 by the British and Arya Samaj sponsored Sodak Committee where Khemu Bedi personally decided this to be case. Stanza's could easily have been interjected by this alliance of anti-Sikh forces in order to give false credibility to the notion that the sexual erotica stories of Triya Charitar should be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj ... as was openly done by the Hindu Mahants between 1897 and the liberation of our Gurdwara's in the 1920's from their depraved casteist Hindu control. The casteist Hindu Mahants delighted in reading out Triya Charitar daily at Darbar Sahib so that their prostitutes could girate to it and yet 100years on so many sincere younger Sikhs are being conned into believing the very lies of our Hindutva enemies. 

Raagmala Ji you are being deliberately simplistic. The vast majority of Sikhs reject the Triya Charitar sexual erotica stories as not being Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's own words/stories but have 100% faith in Sikhi and the Khalsa Panth.

Chatanga Paji that's absolute fine if you admit that most of Dasam Granth are just translations of earlier Hindu stories. I think the problem the majority of Sikhs have is that these Hindu stories are often now claimed to be original thoughts from the pen of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj and to be placed at par with Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Chatangi Paji the letter has been proven as a forgery.

I believe Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi and many others have debunked it.

http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=10199

paapiman, singh123456777, Harjot8963, Raagmala and chatanga1 Ji can all of you kindly clarify whether you believe the 404 Tiya charitars (excluding Sri Benti Chaupai Sahib) to be the original personally-devised (unplagiarised) work of Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj themself or if you believe that the 404 charitars are in fact translations of earlier historic Hindu sexual erotica stories?

Dal Singh Paji, maybe it's a lot simpler than that.

Instead of devoting 10years to writing these 404 sexually erotic stories under these various pen names as some dubiously claim ...

Is it not possible that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj were more focussed on spreading the Truth of Sikhi, fighting oppression and discrimination of the poor and the weak, working tirelessly for societal upliftment and defending the innocent from the Genocide of Aurangzeb?

Of course we would do well to remember that the first five Amritdhari Sikhs (Panj Piare) were (in no special order):

Gujarati (western India),

Dravidian (southern India)

Odisha (eastern India)

Potohari (present day Pakistan)

Hastinapur (northern India)

Thus, instead of Sikhi being falsely pigeon-holed by our opponents as a Punjabi religion (despite 87% of Punjabi's being Muslims and Hindu's), we need to realise that Sikhi is a world faith that should never be caged within Malwa and Majha but needs to spread far and wide globally to all (via our own efforts and commitment as ordinary Sikhs).

A few weeks ago, a group of British Sikhs forcibly stopped an inter-faith marriage from taking place at a Gurdwara (Sikh temple) in Leicester. Organisers of the protest boasted: “On the weekend a outerfaith wedding where a Punjabi bimbo was marrying a non-Sikh (white Christian) was forcefully stopped by the Khalsa, Respect to these lads for standing up for whats right and standing up to a corrupt gurdwara commitee.” Note the usage of the words “bimbo” and “outerfaith”.

A similar protest by the same group earlier in July this year in Bradford was unsuccessful; though a video of the protest shows one of protester saying on camera: “Are we from this mosque? I don’t think we’re from this mosque,” when denied entry by police. Apparently Sikhs who don’t abide by their rules become Muslims.

Put their casual misogyny and bigotry aside for a minute (I’m sure Guru Nanak would have been proud), because this is more about how a group of hardliners are trying to terrorise Sikhs across the country and destroy people’s big day unless they adhere to their rules.

Two years ago a group of 40 such hardliners (it may not be the same group) stopped the wedding of a Sikh woman and her (Christian) husband in Swindon and even posted a video of the incident to YouTube as a warning to others. A BBC Asian Network report last year found Sikhs afraid to speak out because of a continuing campaign of harassment and intimidation; people had their windows smashed and faced other forms of intimidation simply because they wanted a religious ceremony at a Gurdwara.

This is relevant now because this week the Sikh Council UK published ‘guidelines’ on inter-faith marriages at Gurdwaras, reiterating that they shouldn’t be allowed unless the non-Sikh partner converts to Sikhism and undergoes a detailed test to ensure it was genuine. I’ve been inundated with private messages from Sikhs horrified that this form of extremism is gaining ground and being imposed on Sikh Gurdwaras. It’s time we spoke out.

Imagine this scenario. A Sikh man falls in love with a non-Sikh woman and they want to get married. Both agree to a religious ceremony at a Gurdwara. This gives her an opportunity to learn more about the Sikh religion and understand the basic tenets of this progressive religion. It gives her a sense of familiarity and the couple may decide to raise their children as Sikhs.

But what if no Gurdwara is willing to host the religious ceremony? The couple will undoubtedly feel that the Sikh community has ex-communicated them. ‘Married out of the religion? We don’t want to know you’. What are the chances they will now bring up their children as Sikhs? Who wants to be associated with a bunch of narrow-minded bigots?

This is discrimination against non-Sikhs and unadulterated bigotry. I’m perfectly aware that other religious groups do the same. That alone should make some Sikhs think twice: why be as narrow-minded as them? Why not embrace non-Sikhs, as we do when they enter a Gurdwara for langar? Keep in mind that allowing mixed-couple to marry at a Gurdwara wouldn’t hurt anyone. It wouldn’t destroy anything. It would make Sikhs look open and welcoming of people of other faiths.

I’m aware of the counter-argument. If the Sikh wedding ceremony – the Anand Karaj – is interpreted in strict, literalist form, it is aimed only at two Sikhs. But that misses the point. It doesn’t have to be interpreted in that way – Sikhism is also a state of mind and way of life. Plus, most British Sikhs who currently get married in Gurdwaras cut their hair straight after the ceremony and celebrate by drinking alcohol. Will they be forced to go through tests too?

The unsaid truth is that groups such as the Sikh Council UK and many Gurdwaras across the UK are pushing these strict, literalist guidelines not because Sikhism is being destroyed. They are doing it because they’re unwilling to challenge these hardliners. If they wanted strict adherence to the Anand Karaj guidelines, they would call for a ban on most Sikh weddings in the UK. But of course, they would much rather protest against women they call “bimbos” and stop them from marrying a white or black guy at a Gurdwara.

The narrow-mindedness behind such mentality is depressing for a growing number of secular Britons from Sikh families like myself. We may not go to the Gurdwara on a regular basis but we still identify as cultural Sikhs. But this strand of thinking would rather excommunicate and expel all those who don’t follow their strict interpretations, until just their kind are left.

A once powerful and progressive ideology is being ruined by the bigotry of hardliners who want everyone to follow their narrow interpretations. This is a recipe for turning Sikhism from a global inclusive religion into a narrow cult.

True Satkirin Kaur Ji. I'm very proud of the Nova Scotia Sangat for the following, that you pointed out previously below in the www.sikhchic.com interview:

We should emphasise the difference in terms of gender equality between Sikhi & Islam, where in certain Mosques women aren't even allowed to pray due to their supposed "impurity", whilst in our Gurdwaa's we are proud to have an all female executive chosen on the basis of their greater competence.

Islam is a religion which condones slavery in the Quran and where Prophet Muhammad owned black slaves. Sikhi in contrasts asserts that slavery is immoral and that slaveowners deserve death. Remarkably, however, Muslims manage to convert millions of African Americans as we Sikhs in contrast are too insular and don't have the flexibility to realise that kangha need not be made a ritualistic necessity for those with long dreadlocks.

http://www.sikhchic.com/people/taking_the_bull_by_the_horns

Taking The Bull By The Horns

An Interview of KANWAL KAUR SIDHU

The Maritime Sikh Society ("MSS") was founded in 1968 to serve the needs of the sangat in Halifax (Nova Scotia, Canada).

In 1992, it made history by becoming the first gurdwara in North America - and possibly the world - to have an all-women executive committee to manage its affairs.

In December 2009, the members of the society once again selected an all-women executive team to manage the gurdwara, including president Kanwal Kaur Sidhu.

"I am honoured and privileged to be given this opportunity to serve the Sikh community. I am humbled by the trust and faith placed upon us," says Kanwal Kaur.

She has a deep connection with this gurdwara going back to her father, Gurcharan Singh, who in April 1968 had invited Sikhs from all over the region to celebrate Vaisakhi at his home. It was there that the notion of a formal Sikh organization was tabled, a committee formed and the Maritime Sikh Society conceived.

Kanwal's mother, Surjit Kaur, also served as president in 1993-94. In fact, since its inception, women have played key roles and have participated fully in all affairs and activities of the society.

When India's high commissioner, S. Gurdial Singh Dhillon, once saw a woman leading the ardas ceremony in the gurdwara, he said, "This is the first time I have seen a woman performing an ardaas in a gurdwara. You have given them the equal rights they deserve."

We spoke with Kanwal Kaur about the role of women at MSS and the status of women in society today.

What kind of feedback have you received to having an all-women executive?

Kanwal Kaur ["KK"]: So far we have received only positive comments and a lot of support! It has been very encouraging. India's Sikh cabinet minister, Sardar M.S. Gill, commented in The Tribune that the "SGPC (Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee) should emulate Halifax's example". Hopefully, this story will encourage more women to take leadership roles in gurdwaras and men will be more accepting of the idea.

What are some key roles women play in the gurdwara?
 

We actually don't have a professional granthi here in the Halifax gurdwara. All the seva is done by volunteers in the sangat. In addition to preparing langar, women perform many of the other duties at the gurdwara. For example, it is mostly women that recite ardas, do kirtan and recite the lavans at weddings. They are free to take vaaks, administer oaths to the incoming executive or address the congregation. Currently, Sardarni Satpal Kaur Sodhi is doing a series of lectures on the lesser known Gurus of Sikhism. She is highly knowledgeable in Sikh traditions, culture and religion. She has published several books on various aspects of spiritual life and Sikhism.

Our gurdwara would definitely not be able to run without our female members of the sangat!

The male members of the Maritime Sikh Society fully support the aforementioned roles that women take on in our gurdwara. We are very fortunate that our gurdwara enjoys a harmonious relationship between the men and women, and the men play just as important a role in the smooth operation of the gurdwara. They always support and encourage the women to come forward and serve in any capacity, including serving on the executive.

What inspired you to get involved and run for President?

I have been a part of our Sikh community here since I was a young child. The Maritime Sikh Society was founded in 1968 in my parents' house. There were only about 27 Sikh families at that time here in the province of Nova Scotia.

For the first 10 years, the Maritime Sikh Society held gatherings in rental halls or school gyms. My father, S. Gurcharan Singh, served in various capacities for the first eight years of this Society. As a young child, I was involved in all the activities, whether it was helping carry heavy carpets for the floor or washing dishes after a service. My father was a very spiritual man who had a deep love for gurbani. He embodied all that our Gurus taught us. He was a very humble, kind, compassionate man who showered all those he knew with lots of love. His friends belonged to all faiths as he did not see any divisions between people. He only saw humanity. You could say my father was most influential in me developing a deep love for my culture and my Sikh faith. Gurbani kirtan played in our house continuously. My mother, Surjit Kaur, is also a very learned and devout woman. She was the force behind my father, silently doing seva for years on end and never looking for recognition. She has also served as the president of MSS. I took on this seva to honour my parents and to carry on my father's legacy.

What are some of your goals with MSS?

My main goal is to serve this community to the best of my ability while keeping in mind the tenets of Sikhism. I hope to be a positive role model to the young women here while teaching them that in Sikhism, we are all equal. Not just in terms of gender, but in terms of race, caste, class, etc.
 

Why do you think more women are not involved in these types of roles at other gurdwaras?

This is likely because Sikh women are still suffering under traditional prejudices, bias and challenges. While the Rehat Maryada clearly states the equality of men and women, including while doing seva in the gurdwara, many times we don't see women participating because of cultural ideas that don't see women as equal. These are the same cultural chains the Gurus worked so hard to get rid of.

Gender equality is enshrined in the Sikh religion but has that translated to equality in the Punjabi community?

It is very unfortunate that many of the progressive teachings of the Sikh Gurus, which were 500 years ahead of their time, have been forgotten.

However, Sikhism did originate and develop in India, which is a male-dominated society.

In most developing societies where educational resources are limited, girls are treated differently and more poorly than boys. Social pressures, chauvinistic attitudes, and essentially forgetting what the Sikh Gurus taught us, have resulted in the position of Sikh women being hampered.

Fortunately, though, the situation is improving. In a recent study, Jutt (Rural) Sikh Women: Social Transformation Changing Status and Lifestyle, 2010, the author Amarinder Sandhu finds that education among the girls in Punjab is on the rise. With education, economic empowerment and an analytical look back at the teachings and lives of the Gurus, the study of Sikh Scriptures has reawakened Sikh women as well as Sikh men. They are now conscious of rights of women as equal partners in human progress, and citing the Holy Scriptures, they are fighting back for these rights. Sikhism promised an equal place to women but unfortunately the practice fell far short of the preaching.

What are some areas where you'd like to see more action on gender equality in our society?

I would definitely like to see action taken in the area of domestic violence against women. I believe education is the key to empowering young women who are often the victims of domestic abuse. A lot of these women are unaware that there is a way out and continue to suffer silently.

Female infanticide is also undoubtedly a serious problem that needs to be rectified. Although Indian culture has improved with regards to respecting women, we still do not place women on an equal level with men, leading to many female abortions. It isn't only the men that devalue women, but the women as well. I do think, though, that the situation is getting better and the issue is being picked up and addressed by the Punjab government, Sikh clergy and the media.

What about the role of women in Sikh religious institutions?

In the time of Guru Amar Das, three of the appointed masands (regional preachers) were women.

These women were put in charge of spreading the message of Sikhism, handling sangat issues and the administration in their communities. Throughout history, Sikh women have always stood side-by-side joining in all panthic seva. We have had a history of Sikh women being head of Sikh congregations, and leaders in Sikh battles and misls (confederations) .

It is a tragedy that today, there is even an issue of Sikh women not being able to partake in early morning seva and kirtan seva at Darbar Sahib or other gurdwaras. Can you imagine not allowing Mata Gujri to do seva? In our ardaas, we daily speak of the Sikh men and women who have given their ultimate sacrifice for the seva of the panth. Guru Gobind Singh solidified the concept of equality with the introduction of the ONE Khalsa of Kaurs and Singhs.

It is very sad that whereas in the times of our Sikh Gurus we saw Sikh women in leadership roles in the clergy, today there seems to be no remnants of women occupying such positions.

What do you do in your gurdwara to help educate people on the equality of women?

Well, I think our community here in Halifax is quite fortunate in that the members are all quite highly educated. This extends to the community's views on gender equality and the valuable position women occupy in society. Women in our community are highly valued members of the congregation and greatly contribute to the running of the gurdwara.

What do you think Sikh parents can do to help interest their children in the religion?

It is very important for parents to take their children to gurdwara on a regular basis. The children should be encouraged to become important participants in all forms of seva at our religious institutions. This develops an important connection to our religion and also cultivates friendships with other Sikh children, especially in smaller communities such as ours.

Sikh parents should teach their children how the tenets of Sikhism (such as seva, equality and love for all) correlate to their day-to-day lives. The best teacher always leads by example. Children learn best when behaviours are modelled for them. They should be made aware of what a beautiful faith we have and how it is one of the most progressive religions in the world.

What advice do you have for young Sikh women in general?

First and foremost I would encourage all young Sikh women to strive toward getting a good education. Education is power and it opens minds. They should follow their passion, whatever that happens to be. They need to stay connected to their roots and their faith. We all need an anchor in our lives and it is our faith that sustains us in time of adversity. Our heritage is one that is so rich and diverse. We have a goldmine that the western culture is only now discovering.

I would also encourage all young women to get involved in their community and give of themselves in some way - volunteer at the local gurdwara, help the homeless, any charitable activity.

Absolutely Chatanga Paji, i strongly believe in the point you have queried. It's just shows how weak our mindset is if a man is so emasulated that he would convert to the (false) faith of a female. I would surmise that the males in question were raised with a biraderi identity as their foremost identifier with knowledge of the Sikh identity being a distant second. What you point out may have been the case in the past but in 2015 i think it's swinging around pendulum wise and if Muslim women were freed from the threat of honour killings there would be a huge number of them wishing to escape the gender discrimination inherent in Islam to experience the gender equality that is central to Sikhi. In Canada (more so than the UK) especially there are numerous couples where the wife was from an erstwhile Muslim family background.

Paapi Ji i sincerely believe Islam is ideologically bankrupt in comparison to the truth of Sikhi.

I believe if all 7.35billion of the global population were imparted knowledge about the character of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj (as one of ten examples) to compare and contrast with the immoral life of Prophet Muhammad (slavery, paedophilia, terrorism etc), I believe the overwhelmingly majority of neutrals and indeed even a majority of Muslims (freed from any fear of death for apostacy) would accept that Sikhi is clearly the Truth in comparison to the clear falsehoods of Islam.

The reason why the Muslim population globally is growing bigger is because their historic empires and enslavement enabled the Muslims to convert the vast majority of the ancestors of their present day population. And if we look at the 21st century the contrast with Sikhs is clear in pragmatic terms. 

Muslims seek to convert as many to their fold as possible. Sikhs since 1950 have self-defeatingly chosen to exclude as many as possible from the Panth. To become a Muslim one need only utter the shahada. In contrast, we Sikhs often term tens of millions of faithful Gurdwara Sangat as non-Sikhs. Muslims are told that a high birthrate is vital for numerical domination. When our Jathedar points out that Sikh fertility levels are below the replacement level, many more are more concerned about not dividing family wealth between too many offspring.

The Muslims translate the provably false and immoral teachings of the Quran into all global languages. In contrast, we Sikhs have not yet managed to even translate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj into Urdu or Arabic just to cite two large languages spoken by over half a billion people (let alone all Indian or African languages that we should urgently prioritise). Given that one of our Panj Piare was from Odisha it's shocking to me that it took a Bengali academic called Sadhna Kumari Patri to privately translate Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj into Odisha bhasha (and giving up her own job to do this seva). It goes without saying that Sadhna Patri Ji is a Sikh though many I'm sure would label her as a non-Sikh.

In the Diaspora, the number of Muslim parentage women who would wish to experience gender equality by marrying a Sikh male is huge - the response of many in our community would be to protest such a marriage. In contrast, the opposite would be celebrated and financially rewarded in the Muslim community. So it isn't any surprise why the Muslims grow faster as a consequence. Nevertheless, I firmly believe that if we adjust our thinking to include as many people as possible within the wider overall Sikh Panth (whilst keeping the Khalsa Panth niyara) then Sikhi can grow a lot faster and it is our duty to do that for Sarbat da Bhala as only with a bigger population can we achieve greater positive actions. Furthermore, I believe Islam can only prosper when knowledge of it and it's founder's reality is hidden from general public knowledge. As the Internet enables the faster flow of information I believe it can be a great leveller in losing Islam and Christianity many followers whereas smaller faiths such as Sikhi and Buddhism can gain more adherents in contrast (so long as we do not set the initial bar too high and willingly accept those sehajdhari non-Punjabi's who feel that their convictions align with Sikhi).

Already been done Paji by the Congress + Hindutva alliance which has ghost written these books for these new Balmiki + Dera Ballan apartheid Mandir franchises, with the avowed aim of reducing our Qaum to a minority in Punjab by the 2021 census.

Paapi Ji, Sikhs never recognise terms such as "hopeless" in relation to our Panth.

In the new internet age, it is the big religions which will see their followings evaporate the most as knowledge of their lies spreads.

Ask yourself if every child and young adult in the world could freely choose between Hinduism, Islam, Christianity & Sikhi what would they likely choose (if Amritdhari Maryada was not obligatory upon them)?

Well said as usual SikhKhoj Paji. Shocking that we Sikhs are giving this hocus-pocus the time of day!

Exactly KD Singh Paji.

Even though easy for chele to claim in hindsight, none of the Sants knew the future ahead (as its fluid).

We Sikhs should at least know basics of our faith - that Bhagats do not get reincarnated

Why let so-called Brahmgiani's insult our Bhagats and the unmatchable bravery of our Panj Piare. 

Our Guru Sahibaan were not Hindu Kings in previous lives and neither were the 4 Sahibzade Hindu Gods in previous lives.

With respect to the cave near Kiratpur Sahib where the allegation is made that all our shaheeds are living there ...

And Paapi rather than giving $100 to a jyotish give it to Sikh children trying to get an education via www.educatepunjab.net

Haha thanks brother Harjot.

Glad you definitely know now that there was no personal animosity during the discussion :-)

Hope you are well and family are in Chardi Kala :-)

Paapi Ji as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh ... can you please kindly explain to me why Sikhs should believe the above story in Bachittar Natak ... which alleges that our Guru Sahibaan were Hindu Kings in their previous lives (solely from the Bedi and Sodhi clans) who supposedly (according to Bachittar Natak above) did a business deal for land and wealth as Hindu Kings to decide the order of GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708.

Can Sikhs ... other than those from British financed and supported cults (using big names and falsely associating themselves with Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj) ... ie those Sanatan minority cults ... who supported the Hindu Mahants that used to read Charitropakhitan daily for their prostitutes inside Darbar Sahib (while placing it parallel to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj after the British told them to in 1897) ... take such a ludicrous assertion of how GurGaddi succession was decided seriously?

Paapi - It is not about the numbers only, it is more about power. Even, if we were 20%-30% of India's population, still we could have been targeted, if all the power was in the hands of evil people like Indira Gandhi and her followers.

Mr = Agreed. Power is of course critical to the equation. Of course the smaller a minority the less it’s power and the weaker it’s democratic voice. Sikhs should work towards Khalsa Raj (rule by the way of justice) snatching power away from the corrupt.

Mr = We will only progress towards with greater numbers of Sikhs.

Paapi- 1849 - Sikhs made mistakes too

Mr= Agreed. But if the Khalsa Fauj had been ten times bigger as a result of all Punjabi's being Sikh then those mistakes would not have mattered as our faith in Guru Sahib and raw numbers would have handed defeat to the East India Company

Paapi - Maybe you are right, but not in today's world, where technology is predominant in warfare.

Mr = Agreed, ammunition supplies and technology cannot be discounted. But what I am asserting is that equal numbers and equal access to ammunition and technology I would back the Khalsa Fauj to defeat any adversaries.

Paapi = Furthermore, it was not a war. They were riots.

Mr = If you don't consider the Genocide of 20% of Sikhs by Pakistan as a War against us that's your opinion.

Paapi - Thousands of innocent Muslims were also killed in East Punjab too.

Mr = 0.3% percent of the Muslim population of India and Pakistan died in 1947.

Mr = 20% of the Sikh population was killed in the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in 1947.

Mr = It’s quite clear to me which Qaum suffered the most in 1947 though I agree that innocents of all faiths suffered.

Paapi - Similarly, we must respect the Gurbani of tenth master

Mr = All Sikhs do. All respect authentic Dasam Bani. Most Sikhs do not consider the sexually erotic Triya Charitar tales to have been authored by Guru Sahib considering their earlier occuremce in canons of Hindu pornography.

Mr = Authentic Dasam Bani is indeed revered as Guru Sahib’s guiding words.

Paapi - According to your line of thinking, what was the need for other gurus to recite bani, when first master had already recited Gurbani?

Mr = All the blessed authors of Gurbani contributed to the Ocean of Truth in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj

Paapi - Similarly, tenth master made another great ocean for us, which focuses more on bir ras and evil psyche.

Mr = Agreed that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj gave another great ocean to us (authentic Dasam Bani). Nonetheless, the majority of Sikhs do not accept that the Triya Charitar sexually erotic tales are part of what Guru Sahib bequeathed us.

Paapi - If we are unable to understand Gurbani, it is our fault, not Satguru's

Mr = Agreed. But if pornographic sexual tales of Triya Charitar do not align with Gurmat then why do a minority of self-proclaimed non-Sikhs like yourself insist upon calling Triya Charitar as Dasam Bani?

Paapi - Do you think first master's bani was deficient in any way?

Mr = No but you clearly do since you feel that without the 400 odd sexually charitars in Triya Charitars that Gurbani is not complete for you.

Paapi - Who said that? A person can attain salvation, even by reciting mool mantar alone. Does that mean, there is no need for SSGGSJ?

Mr = Hardly, all I am asserting is that many Sikhs do not consider the Triya Charitar sexual erotica tales as Gurbani and nor do many Sikhs believe in the story about our Guru Sahib being Hindu Kings in a previous life who divided up the order of GurGaddi succession like a business deal.

Paapi - If talking about sex is pinching someone so much, ask that idiot, how was he born? Did he jump off the heavens?

Mr = There is nothing wrong in discussing issues of a sexual nature. But don’t ascribe pornographic tales to Guru Gobind Singh Ji and place these pornographic stories parallel to Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. If you want to watch or read porn, watch it in your own bedroom, don’t foist it on the entire Sikh Panth and place it parallel to Maharaj.

Paapi - So what, if our Satgurus belonged to the race of Sri Ram Chandar jee? Why does it bother someone? Just because they are Hindus? Well, all our Satgurus were born in Hindu families. It is a fact.

Mr = There is no evidence to substantiate that Guru Sahib are descended from the lineage of the Hindu God Lord Ram. Nor is there any historic evidence substantiating any Hindu Khatri Kings from the Bedi and Sodhi clans. What the majority of Sikhs object is the insult of GurGaddi contained in Bachittar Natak where it is alleged that these Hindu Kings did a business deal to divide up the order of the GurGaddi succession between 1469-1708. That is an insult of our Guru Sahibaan beyond measure contained within Chapter 4 of Bachittar Natak.