ASJ

Gurbar Akaal hi AKAALHHHH....May Satguru Sachche Paatsaah ji grant us sadbuddhi and keep us in Charhdikalaa...

Very good veere...Hukmai andar sabko ..Baahar Hukam na Koi....I was one of these hate mongers for a short time ..but the more i read baani ..the more i lost all this hate and prejudice...

See, our Guru ji has spoken to us and transformed our thinking within a few seconds? This is what I was trying to say earlier on. Our Guru ji teaches us and forgives us when we surrender ourselves completely. Anyway, I hope I haven't said too much! Take care and may Waheguru ji's blessings be upon you.

There are no divisions made for one community or other in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhi was conceptualized in India and therefore will have elements and iconology from India..there is a bunch of hate mongers who want to show others down are bent upon creating hatred ..they are like ranghars...it is this lot which forms the Anti Dasam lobby who are against Baani of Guru Kalgidhar Paatsaah ji ..some are vocal some silent ..

I get the picture. This is the only reason I just stick to what our Guru Sahibans have taught us because I know the Sikh world out there is very confusing and if you are not careful you can easily drown. I just stick to the SGGS and Banis of the Dasam Patshah ji and I don't look anywhere else for my spiritual journey. I am totally devoted to my faith. I don't agree with people that try to defame or question our Banis or holy Granths. I was quite shocked to read someone making a mockery of our Sacred Ardaas and our act of worship.

The holy SGGS is not an 'idol' because idols don't speak to you. The holy SGGS speaks to us instead, every time we open its holy Angs. So, I can't quite understand how it can be referred to as 'idol.' People normalyy recite prayers to the idols which don't speak or make noise. Our holy SGGS is the opposite, it speaks to us.

Superb explanation veer ji ...We also need to understand that the Gurus took what was to be useful and discarded what was manmat...a major reason for the opposition to idol worship was that the person who worshiped the idol would get attached to the idol rather than Parmatma Akaal Purakh..would limit his bhagti to the saroop...thus declining himself from the Ultimate goal of being One with the Supreme Soul - Param Aatma.

In those times , the Mughals who invaded also destroyed the Idols ..people with an attachment to the idol would find his faith shaken...so to rise above this mental tendency and again do Bhagti of the Parmesar Akaal..idols have been rejected..

In Gurbani time and again you will find respect to the Vedas ..in Dakkhani Oankaar Baani of Guru Nanak Dev ji ..Guru Maharaj says ..Oankaar Bed Nirmaye...The Oankaar created the Vedas...

The concept of Sikhi is based on Sargun Nirgun Nirankaar....there are Physical attributes and None too..Ultimately surrendering to the Formless Akaal.

Thanks for the explanation, jaikaara. As a sikh I try to follow Gurmat as much as I can. Yes, the Vedas and the Puraanas are mentioned as well as Ram, Krishan and Allah. But for Sikhs it is Waheguru or Ik Onkaar or Sat Naam Waheguru.

ASJ veer ji, i was going to reply shortly but bhagat singh ji replied exactly my clarification..i agree with him thats exactly what i meant.sorry for confusion or misunderstanding my post may have caused.

Thanks.

N3O can answer your questions. He is a busy man so relax, he'll get to it.

I want to shed some light on this.

Umbrella is a term which is nothing by itself. It is simply a name for various things that comes under it. So in the case of the term 'Hinduism'. There is no such thing as Hinduism, it a term used to refer to religions of Indian origin, sometimes referred to as Dharma.

Even religions that oppose each other such as Vaishnavism and Shaktyism come under this term of 'Hinduism'. Even though these are separate religions, they have principles that are opposite to each other. They still come under the umbrella term of 'Hinduism'. Why? For no reason, or you can say, for lack of understanding.

Sanatan means puratan/ancient or original.

Even Sant Kabir ji says, "Ab man ulat sanatan hua". My mind has turned [away from the world] and has become 'sanatan' as in, it has taken the form of God.

Like Guru Nanak Dev ji says "Man tu jot saroop hain upna mool pachan". So Kabir says that "my mind has turned away from the world and has become the original mool swaroop"

So Sanatan can mean mool, the original form of something.

I see. I think I understand now. Thanks very much.

Can you be more precise as to what is your point? Which 'umbrella' are you referring to? What do you mean by 'sanatan' and please clarify its actual application to the Sikh religion.

The Mool Mantra and the Gurmantra are the only two mantras we have in Sikhism, are you implying there are more? If so, which ones? Why are you attaching the word 'sanatan' with Sikhee? Did Guru Nanak dev ji not communicate to hindus and muslims that he belongs to neither of them? So, why are you connecting the hindu word 'sanatan' with Sikhee. Why are you deliberately confusing the two religions by conflating them? What is your goal? What is your aim?

I don't really understand the aims and goals of this forum. I have seen no objection emanating from your quarters when people on this very forum were making a right mockery of the Sacred Sikh Ardas. They were questioning its effectiveness, as to how it manages to reach Vaheguru when the hindu pundits/brahmins were told they were wasting their time sending water to their departed relatives? There was a long discussion on this point and I witnessed many insults thrown at the Sacred Sikh Ardas and you did nothing to try and stop it.

On another occasion someone on this very forum made a huge mockery of the Sikh way of worshipping their much revered Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It was labelled by someone here as a 'ritual or idol worship.' This very person also supplied us with a youtube video clip. Do you not think that this can amount to huge beadbi for the Sikhs that are visiting this forum?

N30 Singh, You must have read my post by now. Can you please reply?

http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/sikhs-not-hindus.html

Yes, I do agree but in everyday society it could not be abolished and especially in the times of the Gurus. Maybe this is the downfall of the Sikh dharam, the followers.

Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS, (18 May 1872 – 2 February 1970),

Russell had this to say about Sikhism. "That if some lucky men survive the onslaught of the third world war of atomic and hydrogen bombs, then the Sikh religion will be the only means of guiding them." Russell was asked that he was talking about the third world war, but isn't this religion capable of guiding mankind before the third world war? In reply, Russell said, "Yes, it has the capability, but the Sikhs have not brought out in the broad daylight, the splendid doctrines of this religion which has come into existence for the benefit of the entire mankind. This is their greatest sin and the Sikhs cannot be freed of it."

This statement above by Russell sums it up.

I totally agree. I think social reform in western societies was possible after the invention of conflict theory. This theory made people see how societies operated on day to day basis. It is this theory that pinpointed social weaknesses in western societies whereas the Functionalists were quite happy with the status quo.

I think that part of the problem is that medieval source or eyewitness accounts of Sikhs paint a picture that is confusing. For example, a muslim source who watched the final rites for Guru Gobind Singh describes it as Hindu final rites. Other sources say differently.

Which problem are you on about? Stop misleading people on this forum. What medieval source are you talking about? What muslim source for heavens sake are you referring to? Which final rites of our Beloved Dasam Patshah do you mean? Don't you dare tell lies to us and stop forcing your hinduism on us. This is equivalent to force conversions.

PS Do not bother to communicate with me . I have seen enough of your insults hurled at the Sacred Sikh Ardas. Who the hell are you to question whether it reaches 'your friend in the sky'? You think you are in a position to criticize, undermine or insult the Sikh Gurus on what they preached? So stop talking rubbish and think before you post. Making a mockery out of everything that is sacrosanct to all Sikhs! Let me tell you once again I am a Sikh and not a hindu I only worship ONE Waheguru. I am not interested in any other religion whether it is Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism or Islam. I respect their belief and act of worship but I only have faith in the Sikh Gurus and what they taught.

I don't dislike anyone on this forum All I am saying is that as a Sikh I worship the way our Gurus have taught us. I Only believe in Ik Onkaar. I respect all religions.

There were no final rites for guru gobind Singh ji.

I totally agree with you.

There is no such thing as hinduism that was british invention, orginal is called snatan dhrama which is not religion in a organized form...many scholars came to same conclusion- read scholar thesis and make up your mind----came to same conclusion that umbrella of spiritual orders cannot be labeled as religion or organized in form of religion but umbrella of spiritual orders are part of Snatan(eternal) dharma since sikhi incorporates or have all spiritual orders -includes all the spiritual orders as from aad sach everything orginated from to begin with...sikh dharma are true/ultimate heir of snatan dharma as it source of all- includes all, talks to indic all spiritual school of thoughts along with essence of sikhi/sat enshrined in our mool mantra- aad such jugad sach hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach.

Please note i m not talking about sikh community in general, as far as i m concenred they are just as petty as everyone else with lot of chances of improvement..when it comes to sikh theology its find its roots right in mool mantra not just date or time- aad sach (before beginning-eternal-snatan) jugad sach (from all the ages is true) hai bhi sach ( true now) nanak hosi bhi sach ( nanak says- will be true forever).

Can you be more precise as to what is your point? Which 'umbrella' are you referring to? What do you mean by 'sanatan' and please clarify its actual application to the Sikh religion.

The Mool Mantra and the Gurmantra are the only two mantras we have in Sikhism, are you implying there are more? If so, which ones? Why are you attaching the word 'sanatan' with Sikhee? Did Guru Nanak dev ji not communicate to hindus and muslims that he belongs to neither of them? So, why are you connecting the hindu word 'sanatan' with Sikhee. Why are you deliberately confusing the two religions by conflating them? What is your goal? What is your aim?

I don't really understand the aims and goals of this forum. I have seen no objection emanating from your quarters when people on this very forum were making a right mockery of the Sacred Sikh Ardas. They were questioning its effectiveness, as to how it manages to reach Vaheguru when the hindu pundits/brahmins were told they were wasting their time sending water to their departed relatives? There was a long discussion on this point and I witnessed many insults thrown at the Sacred Sikh Ardas and you did nothing to try and stop it.

On another occasion someone on this very forum made a huge mockery of the Sikh way of worshipping their much revered Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It was labelled by someone here as a 'ritual or idol worship.' This very person also supplied us with a youtube video clip. Do you not think that this can amount to huge beadbi for the Sikhs that are visiting this forum?

http://www.sikhmarg.com/english/The-Sikhs.html

Interesting read. Why are they confusing the Sikh religion with the hindu religion then? Can someone explain this too?

Everything in my posts have been said as a Sikh. So where is the problem. No we don't believe in idoltry. The SGGS is surely convered with Rumaallas, but they don't have any physical features like the hindu idols do. So where is the problem? As a Sikh we are not to fast, no karvachoth varat either. We don't conduct the havan, So what is so contradictory? I am just telling you about my Sikh beliefs.

This is accusation

Why is this an 'accusation?' I don't honestly understand your meaning.

The great Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not have eyes,nose ears limbs and other features assoiciated with idols made of stones. It is without human features, plus it is not painted.

Dalsingh101

I tend to avoid the micro sociological view of society over the others. I tend to favor the the Functionalists' view over theirs'.

Good ..better do your homework...then accuse any Religion

Excuse me....when did I 'accuse' any religion? Can you show me?

Who told you that they invoke Devtas and Devis ? In your case then the mention of Isher , Brahma and Parbati mai would also be sacrilege.

They wont mean anything to you since you are not literate on it ..tell me the meaning of Rahaao..Aril, Bhagvati Chhand, if you are too learned then.

Sorry but I don't understand to whom are you referring to in your first question. Mentioning of brahma, parbatimai is in no way sacrilege to sikhs, but we don't worship them. As far as hindu mantras are concerned I am a sikh so I have no desire to learn mantras outside of sikhee. I don't read vedas,puranas or upnishads. I know you can purchase them translated in English. Please note, I have just discovered the sikh religion and I am still learning.

As to your last query I have a link you can visit. I find this link very helpful and it does have all the meanings of Rahaao, Bhagvati Chhand and many more Chhands and Aril too. It is been interesting communicating with you and I have learnt something new today about Sanatan Sikhism, I never knew before that it existed.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/The_Encyclopedia_of_Sikhism

And what culture might that be?

I hope you aren't going to say 'Hindu culture' and fob the whole issue away as the result of outside influence?!

It is a certain culture the sikhs are following. Which culture(s) were predominant at the times of our Gurus. Which religious thinking legitimized the caste system, sati, kurri mar, donating female children to the temples etc? May be you can answer my queries. I am not trying to 'fob' anything away. My aim is to understand the reasons why sikhs still follow everything the Gurus tried to abolish.

It's deeper than that; it's actually a vile corruption in Sikh society that undermines us.

How can Sikhs go on about their Gurus enlightened egalitarianism when they have rampant, extreme, odious discrimination going on between themselves?

The gurus spoke about the abolishment of caste system on spiritual level and that spirituality starts in the Ahsrams and Gurudwars.

Caste in daily life will never be abolished, unless the Indian mentality changes.

The Sikh Gurus did abolish it but it is a certain culture that still encourages it.

I know and it is very sad and cruel to judge others according to their caste. We are all human at the end of the day.

Monotheism and polytheism are million of worlds apart. There is no mention of trinity in Sikh religion.

The wonderful Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji invokes only one IK ONKAAR.

Sikhs do not invoke the agni, the wind, the water, the stones or anything else when they start their spiritual journey. They only invoke Ik Onkaar, Sat Naam, Karta Purukh, Nirbow, Nirwair, Akaal Murat, Ajooni, Sahibang, Gurprasaad, Jap.

All hindu mantras are insignificant and don't mean anything to a devout sikh. There are no pakhands and pujas in Sikh religion. No karwachoths, monday fast, tuesday fast, wednesday fast etc. No feeding of the dead relatives or kanjkaas. No wearing of a red thread on your wrists to signify you are a brahmin either. The great Sikh religion is a very straightforward and simple religion. It has done away with all the pakhands and pujas that existed at the time of the first Guru Sahiban ji. There are no similarities in any shape or form in this wonderful Chardi Kalaan religion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11185683/Indian-priest-thrashes-untouchable-boy-8-who-asked-for-sweets.html

We tarkhans are highest caste.

We are all made of flesh, bones and blood. Here read this and see how cruel it is to believe in the caste system, dear starchpagg47. Your pagg looks very beautiful.

This will make you cry.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/19/lynching-boy-underlines-curse-caste-still-blights-india

Anger stemming from a 30-year-old religious clash in India that left thousands dead has crept into one of the closest and most expensive congressional races in the country.

During the first week of November 1984, an estimated 3,000 Sikhs were massacred in India’s capital. According to eyewitnesses and Indian human rights activists, the killings were organized by government officials and facilitated by police officials.

Here is a list of Top 10 Architects, who were involved with the massacre of thousands of Sikhs during November 1984, also remembered as Sikh Genocide.

Click below to see the list

Source: http://singhstation.net/2014/10/top-10-architects-of-1984-sikh-genocide/

Reading this has really made me rethink about India.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2009/oct/31/india-sikhs-1984-massacre