Kuttabanda2
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Posts posted by Kuttabanda2
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6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:
So do I. I'm not ashamed or regretful of their actions during 1947. It had to be done.
It's human nature and communalism-nationalism. A tit for tat policy. Not exactly moral on our part, but it had to be done. In east Punjab, Muslims were provoking some of the violence, in the Hoshiarpur Zila and northern Doaba, for example, Muslim Jats and zameendars began organizing Muslim militias to attack overwhelmed and isolated Sikh villages. Since a number of Gujjars were loharis (Iron-smiths), they provided arms to these hordes, the Muslim zameendars provided horses and other arms (rifles, pistols, etc).
When they saw the tables turning almost immediately (as Sikhs in Doaba put up a good fight, and later received help from Majhaili and Malwai reinforcements) and the repercussions of their doing, did they began fleeing westward en masse.
From a point of view shaped by human nature, circumstances, survival, and necessity, Sikhs have less, if any, reasons to be apologetic.
The Rajas of Malwa were wise to begin accumulating arms and forming militias, they served us well.
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12 hours ago, amardeep said:
Have you read Louis Fenech's analysis of the Ghazals of Bhai Nand Lal and the Persian poet Hafez? It's from 1994
No, heard of it,but was unable to get my hands on it
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On 6/19/2017 at 5:29 AM, kdsingh80 said:
The blame of starting partition violence is on muslims but sikhs are so much blamed for massacres after partition , even random search will land you on British articles newspapers blaming sikhs
The blame falls upon the muslims as they had brought it upon themselves and started the carnage of partition, especially in the case of Punjab, that's indisputable. With Jinnah's and the Muslim League's agitation growing, organized unprovoked massacres and regional purges befell the Sikhs of west Punjab as early as 1946, in Pothohar and the Multan area in particular. Newspapers blame Sikhs for killing more on our side of the border and organizing the attacks more effectively and in a well calculated fashion. It is, however, well established that in Punjab, the Muslims had started the carnage.
Your "random search" shouldn't be that, a "random search", it should be thorough and comprehensive.
I get sick tired of Sikhs castrating themselves by taking the blame for partition, as if it was mostly and solely our doing.
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On 6/19/2017 at 9:04 PM, kdsingh80 said:
Even American media published news of train attacks on muslims by sikhs, strangely you will not find a single news of muslims attacking sikh/hindu train
You'll find attacks on Sikhs and Hindus documented as well, you just have to have the intention to look for them, which isn't too difficult.
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11 hours ago, chatanga1 said:
Another major factor to consider is that partition violence only relates to violence post 14th august. That is when the Sikhs actually fought back. Before that date the muslims had the upper hand and were killing Sikhs in western Panjab. In Lahore the muslims had started killing hindus and sikhs from 6th july as that was the day partition was announced. Because there was uncertainty over lahore, the muslims fire-bombed hindu/sikh areas until they left, so there was no chance of Lahore ending up in India. The Sikhs should have done the same with those border villages with historic gurdwaras. It was a great mistake to have left them to pakistan, when the opportuniuty was there.
Actually, the Muslims began their genocide and ethnic cleansing well before even the summer of Partition, The Sikhs and Hindus of Rawalpindi, other parts of Pothohar, and Multan were first attacked in 1946, we waited a whole year before getting back at them, and even then, when they started killing more of our people, did we retaliate.
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On 6/19/2017 at 2:42 PM, chatanga1 said:
The border does make things difficult, but when the Sikhs had the chance to do anything, they didn't. Neither has the indian govt done anything to help. Can you beleive that there are 6 border villages in Pakistan that have historic gurdwaras in them, the most famous one "Gurdwara Kartarpur Sahib" antim place of Guru Nanak Dev ji, yet the Sikhs didn't do anything to hold those villages in 1947 when they could easily have done so, or even after in the 65 and 71 wars. The SGPC asked the indian go vt to arrange an exchange of land, measuring the same from Indian panjab for these 6 villages, but the indian govt was not interested. % of those gurdwaras have rotted to dust, as did Kartarpur Sahib uuntil the pakistan govt decided it could be renovated for Sikh tourism purposes.
The border hasn;t helped but neither have the Sikhs. Coming onto forced conversions of Pakistani Sikh girls, the Sikhs in indian Panjab need to be more aggressive and operate a quid pro quo policy.
I saw this like a month or so ago. The Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan live in a sea of sulleh, they really have no hope. A while back, they even converted Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji's Shaheedi asthan to a mosque. The Sikhs there need arms, finances, and resources, that is their only way to thrive and survive there.
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11 hours ago, chatanga1 said:
I did ask Anurag Singh about publication of some important texts and manuscripts, but he replied that no-one is interested in doing this. The SGPC especially. But digital publication would the way to go. It would be much easier than a printed publication, although i prefer printed myself.
I wonder if we will ever see an interactive Guru Granth Sahib.
Hahaha. I'm not surprised, not a lot of people in the Punjabi-speaking community are interested in 'books'. Jughera di kaum.
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14 hours ago, paapiman said:
Bro, what do you mean by "Pandd"? Is it ਪੰਡ?
Thanks
Bhul chuk maaf
yeah, not as in bale-bundle, but as in the caste-occupation
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Going on a small tangent here, but Someone needs to digitalize and publish all the manuscripts Dr. Anurag Singh and his counterparts have hoarded up in their collections and libraries. It's about time now. Sikh Academia has declined in the past two decades, compared to the time before.
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On 6/12/2017 at 3:38 AM, paapiman said:
Please listen to Gyani Inderjeet Singh jee Raqbewale providing information on Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee.
@chatanga1 - The original Granth was in Sanskirt.
Please start listening after 15:45 min:
Bhul chuk maaf
Interesting views from the Traditional School of Thought.
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On 2/2/2017 at 2:00 PM, amardeep said:
What abot that Persian quote "Sikhi eh panj muaf" .. It mentions 5 K's also. How old is that, and what writings is it part of?
That's an interesting stanza.
According to Bhai Pyara Singh Padam, that couplet was written on a Parchi, slipped into a bir of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.
Dr. Ganda Singh Ji on the other hand, says in 'Makhisheh Twareekh-e-Sikhaan' that he found it in a manuscript of Sarbloh Granth.
Both can actually be correct.
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As for my favorite texts, I can't really point to one particular text, But I can make a list haha.
I've fallen in love with Bhai Nand Lal Ji's works, specifically the ones in Persian, knowing Persian culture, medeival Indic Vairaagi; Sikh & Sufi-Shia Mysticism, and most importantly the Persian language, the work can be recognized for being the precious jewel that it is.
The Panth Prakash Granths, by both Gyani Gyan Singh Ji and Bhai Rattan Singh Bhangu are inspiring to me.
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is obsessively fascinating to me, with it's various ideals and concepts, as well as the style of writing.
The Rehatnamas (Bhai Daya Singh's, Bhai Nand Lal's, Bhai Desa Singh's, Bijay Mukat Marag, and Bhai Chaupa Singh's) provide knowledge on abiding by the Khalsa code of conduct-living, Khalsa ethics, and the importance thereof.
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On 3/3/2017 at 1:48 AM, chatanga1 said:
There are some saying attirbuted to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but nobody knew where they were written. I found a couple in Panth Parkash.
Those are found in Gurbilas and Suraj Prakash as well, I think. Dasmesh Pita Ji had quite a few proverbs, dictums, adages, etc. that remained in the Panth's Oral tradition and Khalsai culture.
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On 2/10/2017 at 3:04 PM, Guest s1ngh said:
We are talking of 38 verses (76 lines) actually, written around 1588. I came to know of the document as it was referenced in a Punjabi article to counter missionaries who claimed Bhai Bala never existed. Some of the countries that are mentioned in the Udasis by Bhai Behlo have not been deciphered yet, much like most of the other names in the other Janamsakhis.
Since you are more into the study of Granths, try to ask around and look more for the following unpublished Granths:
Twarikh Bhai Binod Singh, Twarikh Bhai Chanda Singh & Gohaj Pothi. Anurag Singh son of Trilochan Singh claims to have the Gohaj Pothi but not sure. Maybe create a seperate topic to discuss 'interesting/lesser known' Granths as the Suraj Parkash and Gurbilas traditions have overshadowed all other (smaller and larger) Granths.
is Twarikh Bhai Binod Singh the one that mentions the Amrit Sanchar method, Panj Kakkars, with a Rehatnama, and certain excerpts of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji's life up until Sachkhand Gaman?
sorry for going off topic.
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On 6/11/2017 at 8:03 AM, chatanga1 said:
Practices do seem to have changed very significantly. Even the way Sikhs think nowadays and their thoughts of social, and political practices are different.
Yeah, for example, on a social level, the attitude towards Kurehatees, anmatiye, turks, etc. have changed. On a socio-political level, we've become relaxed on Sikh Nationalism/Identity and maintaining even the fundamental tenets of the Sikh Panth.
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On 5/29/2017 at 2:03 PM, chatanga1 said:
These are some points on which research could be made. How did the rehatnamas change over time, and how the Sikhs were accepting of them. When we read some of the details of the rehatnamas we can see some things which we would be concerned with, but did the Sikhs of those times prefer to accept them, leaving us with the injunctions we have today?
Looking at the transition from the 19th century to the 20th century, seems like they did accept most of them. As some of the ones we'd call "Un-Gurmat" today, happened to be in practice back then.
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On 5/29/2017 at 3:29 AM, tva prasad said:
do nihangs still have the real rehitnama, sau sakhi, etc. or not.
I don't know. There are so many manuscripts around India's libraries. So possibly.
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14 hours ago, paapiman said:
Who was involved in the tampering of Rehatnamas? Motive? Can you post some examples?
Bhul chuk maaf
Whoever reproduced the Rehatnamas tampered with them.
The motive is quite obvious. With Rehatnamas being an authority on Sikh law, way of life, social structures, governence, etc., Scribes who reproduced these Rehatnamas added, edited and removed injunctions as they pleased. This was done to better suit their own needs. To justify (to the Sikh masses), propagate, and authenticate the personal ideals, practices and convictions that the scribe had held onto.
Another motive was to address issues in the Sikh Panth at that time.
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On 5/23/2017 at 2:25 PM, chatanga1 said:
Who do you think they feared interpolation/corruption from ?
from non-Nihangs/Akalis. Janamsakhis and Rehatnamas were tampered with when being copied and/or printed. Sau Sakhi is notable for this, the original text was altered repeatedly. Piara Singh Padam details this very well. The Singhs of old noticed this, thus they became protective.
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On 5/15/2017 at 4:52 AM, amardeep said:
I think in general all Granth's were protected. Malcolm in the early 1800s writes that it was extremely difficult to obtain copies of Sikh scripture. Finally he got them from the Nirmale who seem to have been more liberal in this regard. We can imagine then that the Nihangs were more protective.
The Nihangs feared interpolation and corruption of texts which kind of became eventual, so they resorted to extreme measures to hide many Granths, like their Rehatnama Granths, Sarbloh Granth, Janamsakhis, Sau Sakhis, etc. by burying, transporting it to different places or placing it in the care of trusted individuals. Despite their efforts, many of these texts were discovered anyways.
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Imo, the Sarbloh Granth seems to be a compilation of Kavi Bani and Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Bani. Bhai Gurdas Singh's Vaar has been found within the Granth in certain manuscripts.
There also hasn't been enough research done into the text, no one even undertook the endeavour to do it's Shudai, there are portions misplaced, missing, rearranged, mispelled, undecipherable, etc. variations between manuscripts.
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On 5/8/2017 at 8:27 AM, paapiman said:
What is the language of this Granth?
Bhul chuk maaf
The language most used is Persian ( this is the most problematic because the transcribers made errors transliterating from the Persian script to the Gurmukhi script, many portions are incomprehensible because of this), Braj Basha, Punjabi, Hindi, Urdu, Aphram Basha, Sanskrit, Standard Arabic vocabulary is used abundently as well.
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On 2/15/2017 at 9:25 PM, tva prasad said:
ok but I still believe raagmala is bani.
yeah good for you, i'm not trying to convince anyone that it's not Bani.
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7 hours ago, amardeep said:
It is important to note that samprdaye's - especially the nirmale - are not bound by beliefs, but by scholarship. In this regard it is very normal to see instances where a highly respected student disagrees on an issue with his highly respected teacher. This can be seen in history as well as in present day.
Which is another reason why their words aren't the gospels of truth. They don't hold anymore authority or veracity than anyone else.
Nisid Hajari’s Midnight's Furies:
in General Discussion
Posted
I think our only hope as of now is to begin proselytizing non-Sikhs in our part of Punjab (including Haryana, northern Rajasthan, Himachal, Delhi), as well as promote and stimulate Sikh population growth and encouraging Sikh settlement in Punjab. If a war were to break out between India and Pakistan in the near future, giving a reason for India to invade the Pakistani held Punjab, we could assert some influence to permanently retain areas like Lahore, Kasur, Okara, Nankana Sahib, Sheikhupura, Bar Doab Canal Colonies (that WE built), Lyallpur, former Montgomery area, Toba Tek Singh, Norwal, Gujrat, Gujranwala, Sialkot, Hafizabad, and even Pothohar. The Muslim population of those areas would likely become refugees, accept their situation, or face oppression for any opposition or insurgency they may begin.
However, that's all theoretical.