Kuttabanda2

6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Great, any idea when you are going? And will these be available for all to see?

the Summer of 2018 is what I have planned. 

And I will be putting them up online. 

On November 18, 2014 at 5:22 AM, dalsingh101 said:

 

And I guess you've never actually spent any time pondering the provenance of the so-called 52 hukums?

 

Just looks like a modern collection of random extracts to me.

There's a Puraatan Kharrda (manuscript) of the Hukams kept at Poanta Sahib. 

On 9/27/2016 at 3:26 AM, paapiman said:

The so-called SGPC Rehat Maryada has major flaws in it (Gurparsaad, will make a new topic on this issue). It is much much safer for a Sikh to follow Taksal Maryada or any other Maryada of a Samprada (which traces it roots to Sri Satguru jee).

 

Bhul chuk maaf 

Here's the problem, no samparda can be traced back to Guru Sahib.

No one was forced to follow the SRM so it's not being imposed on anyone.  It's actually like a basis of every other Maryada.

As for the Mool Mantar issue, both sides have good evidence and arguments. There is no resolve for it. 

As for flaws, the biggest is how it's asserted. 

The DDT Chaupai Sahib's inclusion of the Sambhat Chaupai doesn't have evidence substantiating it. The same with the Rehraas Sahib. 

On 9/27/2016 at 5:14 AM, amardeep said:

Please expand. The reference to burial is in regards to taking amrit

Interesting.

When I was informed about this , I met Nihang Singhs (from i think Tarna Dal/ Hariavelan) back in India, they said it was what they would do to a captured turk (especially of importance) they'd bury them neck high, feed him pork, then let the dogs, jackals, bobcats etc. (kutte billeh) have their way with them. 

Another method was digging a pit, throwing the prisoner in, and covering it with wood (with just a hole in the top) and Singhs would defecate in there or something.

I haven't found any written evidence of this anywhere so far, so I'm not to quite sure if this is in fact true.

On 9/27/2016 at 2:24 AM, chatanga1 said:

Thats sounds exciting. What manuscripts have you got?

I don't possess any manuscript, I had darshan of a few in Punjab and learned about certain manuscripts from fellow Singhs, and soon i'm going back to scan them.

On September 21, 2016 at 3:57 PM, JasperS said:

Thanks for pointing us to this!!! 

@kuttabanda2 how accurate is this translation? Can we be fairly confident?  This doesn't contradict Gurbani at all so I believe this is likely closest to what Guru Gobind Singh Ji intended. 

Here is the text: 

----- Quoted from http://www.searchsikhism.com/rehitnama-of-bhai-daya-singh

Bhai Daya Singh was the first of the Panj Piaras to offer his head as a sacrifice when Guru Gobind Singh gave a call for the highest sacrifice. He was amongst those Five who received the Amrit baptism of the Khalsa Holy Order. He received the highest illumination from the Guru. His Rehitnama was obviously written after the death of Guru Gobind Singh. It elucidates the basic ideals of the Khalsa, and urges a complete break with Brahmanical faith and Muslim cults, which were exploiting Hindu and Muslim masses with pretensions to occult power. The following is a translation of an authentic version:

1. A Sikh of the Guru should not have any faith in Maths: Brahmanical Monasteries, idols, pilgrimage to holy rivers, gods and goddesses, fasts, Brahmanical ceremonies of image worship (puja and archa), nor should he believe in tantra, mantra and yantra of the Tantric Yoga, nor should he go to Brahmins and Pirs for amulets, talisman, or seeking omens, nor submit to the Hindu sacrament of Gayatri and Tarpand.
2. He is the Khalsa, who has dedicated his body, mind and wealth to the Supreme Being and for the righteous cause.
3. A Sikh should not wear the sacred thread of the Hindus: Janeu. He should not perform the ceremonies of birth and death according to Hindu rites, nor should he perform the ceremony of feeding Brahmins for the salvation of ancestors. He should not perform marriage according to the Vedic or Brahmanical rites. He should perform all ceremonies according to the discipline of the Gurus (Gur-maryada) by offering prayers (Ardasa) before the Lord in the Presence of Adi Guru Granth.
4. A Sikh should render whatever help he can to all who come to him in the time of need.
5. He should visit the Temple of the Guru (Gurdwara) daily, and on the way to the temple, walk with restraint and reverence.
6. If no one offers his daughter in marriage to a devout Sikh young man simply because he is poor, or for some other such reason, he should willingly offer his daughter to such a person.
7. To kill infant daughters, or to give in marriage one’s daughter to a clean-shaven man out of greed is a serious religious offence.
8. When a Sikh offers his daughter in marriage to a devout Sikh, it is like nectar mingling with nectar.
9. When a Sikh (Khalsa) gives his daughter to a clean-shaven non-Sikh, it is like putting nectar into the mouth of a snake.
10. A Sikh should prefer white, yellow, blue, grey colours for turbans or clothes.

Note: The red colour used these days by Communists for their flags is called suha rang, which is discouraged because in the Sikh Scriptures it is symbol of unstable, immoral character and materialistic living. The red colour of the rose is appreciated as it symbolizes spiritual radiance. There is no hard and fast rule for people leading a purely worldly life, but religious people generally prefer white, yellow, blue, grey and black.

11. A Sikh should consider all other rich or poor Sikhs his brothers in faith.
12. He who has treachery and insincerity in his heart is doomed to perdition.
13. To accept offerings or amulets from Pirs and followers of Muslim cult leaders like Sakhi Sarwar (Sayyid Ahmed) whose cult indulged in magic and occult feats) is a breach of religious discipline.
14. He who puts on sacred marks of the Hindus on his fore¬head (Tilak), or wears rosary of wooden beads of Vairagl sects, commits a breach of discipline.
15. Whenever any communal or national decision is to be taken, five Sikhs living according to Khalsa Moral Code (Rehit) should take decision on what is right and what is wrong in Moral living: Rehit-bibek. The Gurmatta: Collective Decision of the Assembly of the Sikh divines, should be accepted as final.  
    
    Note: Notice it doesn't say five Singhs? It says five Sikhs!

Note: This commandment or tradition strikes at the root of all dictatorships in religious, cultural and political Institutions.

16. The drawers should be up to knees and not lower than the knees.
17. The kitchen should be plastered with clay and not with cow-dung according to Brahmanical rites.
18. A Sikh should disregard all Hindu-Muslim prejudices or dominant cultural influences of Hindu or Muslim rulers and societies.
19. Ekadasi fasts of the Hindus should not be kept by the Sikhs.
20. The Sikhs should perform marriage rites according to the Sikh Anand-marriage ceremony (Lawan) and not according to Vedic rites.
21. A Sikh should always remain in military preparedness, and keep his horse and weapons with care and alertness.
22. He who employs the Brahmins to perform marriage and death ceremony according to Hindu rites, commits serious breach of discipline of the Khalsa Moral Code and should be given penitentiary punishment.

Note: The foregoing Rehitnama is translation of the text found in British Museum. There are some printed versions of the same and now available. But I recently found a Manuscript in which the following additional instructions are recorded, and it indicates that the original text was more comprehensive. The additional points are:

23. There are four types of Sikhs:
    1. Those who become Sikhs for commercial motives: Dhande di Sikhl.
    2. Those who accept Sikhism formally only to imitate Sikhs for material gains and to exploit Sikhism: Bhekh di Sikhi.
    3. Those who become Sikhs for personal or family ambitions, be they religious, social or political: Hirsi Sikh.
    4. Sikhs who are dedicated and sincere in faith: Sidqi Sikh.
24. One should not tell a lie; one should not associate (sexually) with women other than one’s legal wife.
25. One should discard lust, anger, egoism, calumny, and violence (himsa) of all types. Himsa means wilfully harming other people.
26. A Sikh should be sweet of speech, and he should never hurt anyone’s feelings. He should remain pure and sincere at heart and never harm anyone.
27. One should pay his tithes for the cause of Guru, and always share his surplus income with the needy and help them in every way. While one lives according to the Commandments of the Guru, he should not be vain or be proud of it.
28. Sikh should not visit a society or place where one forgets God and the great divine Teachers. Such a society should be discreetly avoided.
29. A Sikh should not be a glutton, nor should he waste food. He should neither talk much nor sleep much. He should bring home his earning by honest labour, and help the Sikh devotees and serve them. He should consider God and the Guru as the Supreme Giver.
30. A Sikh should avoid five activities:
    1. stealing, coveting or misappropriating other people’s property.
    2. coveting other people’s wives.
    3. scandalizing others for personal reasons.
    4. gambling.
    5. drinking wine.
31. A person who has drifted away from Sikhism should be guided to the right path. One should not harm or hurt them if they can still be guided to the right path.
32. A Sikh should be judged not by his material possessions and wealth, but by his life of meditation (Nam Simrin: Remembrance of God), and his moral spiritual life.
33. A Sikh should tie his hair on the top centre of the head. He should wear bigger turban and keep his head covered. He should comb his hair twice; early in the morning and before going to bed. He should shampoo his hair every fourth day.
34. Guru Gobind Singh said, “If anyone from any faith or creed, or from any of the four castes accepts Amrit baptism, they should be treated as my living embodiment: Oh mera sarup hai. ”
35. Sikhs should contemplate the Guru-mantra: Vahi-Guru in the following manner: Inhale your breath and say Vah with it, and when you exhale your breath, say Guru with it.
36. Guru Gobind Singh said, “It is not the outward form or dress that is dear to me, but the moral and spiritual living of Sikh that I admire: rehit pyari moko Sikh piara nahi. ”

Source - The Turban and the Sword of the Sikhs by Dr. Trilochan Singh

That translation is brief. 

On September 22, 2016 at 6:23 AM, paapiman said:

If the great Saints (Baba Amir Singh jee, Baba Sundar Singh jee, Baba Gurbachan Singh jee, Baba Kartar Singh jee, Baba Kirpal Singh jee, Baba Jarnail Singh jee, etc) of Taksal had been in power, they would have done a way way way better job than SGPC. No Sikh can deny this fact.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

And will Dhumma be their successor? 

You can't be so sure of that. You're asserting that if Taksal took the Akal Takhat Sahib over they would be doing a better job, as if you consider them to be flawless angelic super humans. 

The Panth will end up in the same mess it's in now. 

The Rehat Maryada laid down by the SGPC is the basic framework for the entire Panth's various Rehat Maryadas. 

No Sikh should make such an assertion and call it a fact. 

On September 23, 2016 at 0:03 PM, paapiman said:

Their leaders have done plenty of Sikhi Prachar and were instrumental in inspiring millions to walk on the right path. If they were in power at Sri Akal Takht Sahib jee, then there would be less confusion in the Panth regarding issues such as Rehat Maryada, Sri Dasam Gurbani, etc.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Their leaders would probably force Taksal Maryada over the entire Panth. A Maryada that does not have enough research to substantiate it. 

On September 22, 2016 at 6:20 AM, paapiman said:

Not all destruction has been committed by Kar Seva. There was an incident where a historical tree was uprooted by a Gurudwara committee (which would be under SGPC), as people were bowing before it. There might be more cases too.

 

Please have a look below.

http://kam1825.podbean.com/e/destruction-of-heritage-during-the-singh-sabha-movement/

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That's interesting and quite saddening.

23 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Great. Going to try and get in touch with some people there, who may be able to reveal more.

GNDU Is possible, Patiala is a maybe, since the Hindu Board there attempted to actually destroy a lot of historical material, so I'm expecting them to be fishy, but that can't be confirmed until I try. 

i'm looking forward to buying a scanner and scanning+digitizing Puraatan manuscripts. 

On June 1, 2008 at 0:49 PM, amardeep said:

i dont know... maybe to make sure that they are serious about becoming singhs.. but it also talks about burrying them into the ground first... sounds weird

That's actually one of many  methods of torturous execution that the Nihang Singhs practiced with Captured Turkus. It was like a Maryada. 

9 hours ago, paapiman said:

Has it been published?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

An English Translation has been included in "Sword and Turban of the Sikhs", By Dr. Trilochan Singh. You can find a Punjabi version in Padam's book, though there are 3-4 inserted portions, and 2 excluded portions. 

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

Taliban was influenced by Wahhabism and Wahhabi activities are similar to Missionary activities in our religion.

For example, Wahhabis have destroyed historical and cultural artifacts of Islam. Similarly, during the Singh Sabha Lehar and afterwards, Sikh historical artifacts have been destroyed. If Taksalis (or any other Puratan Samprada) were in control of Sri Akal Takht Sahib jee, then this utter stupidity would not have taken place.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

That again is incorrect. I would equate the Missionaries more to Lutheran or Reformist Christians. 

The destruction of artifacts, manuscripts, and Guru Ghars was committed by the Kar Seva Wale Babe. Whom aren't really supervised. Also, destruction of artifacts didn't happen during the Singh Sabha Sudhar Lehar, it happened decades afterwards. The SGPC and Missionaries are two different entities. The SGPC evidently isn't the same as it was before. That goes for any institution or sect in the Panth. 

Taksal seems more similar to the Taliban, in the fact they punish Dushts (which from an impartial eye would seem "extremist".) and are quick to impose their views and ideology, albeit not with the same methodology as the Taliban.

the Puraatan Sampardas already had control, and they demonstrated what they could do with such power, which was not really Gurmat. If Taksal had control, The same stupidity would have taken place. No one's got clean hands here. 

17 hours ago, JasperS said:

Admittedly I dont know a lot about Damdami Taksal and only recently discovered they don't follow the Panthic Rehet Maryada and have their own, however the copy on their own website has that clause, that wives are to see their husband as God. It does not tell the husband to also see his wife as God instead it says he sees her as his follower. So their current version of their maryada does indeed say that and it sets a definite hierarchal view of marriage, which sounds a lot like husband worship. 
What was the original wording or context? I am interested to know.  I know that Taksal prohibit women from a lot of seva which also doesnt sit well with me. I guess it doesn't affect me because we are obviously not Taksals. We follow mainstream Panthic Rehet Maryada (Sikh Rehet Maryada) though we also frequent AKJ samagams because of their awesome simran. 

I'll take a picture of the paragraph and upload it.  It's from Gurmat Rehat Maryada (original, longer Book). 

What Taksalis do today is not what Taksalis did then. Even the Gyanis who studied under Gyani Gurbachan Singh Khalsa can't be trusted. Before the advent of the Internet and the standardization of their narratives, you could sit around 5 separate students of Gyani Gurbachan Singh down, in separate rooms, ask the same one question, and have a result of 5-6 Answers. 

DamDami Taksal was extremely anti-Padd Ched, and even more so, extremely anti-printing Bani. There used to be only Larrivar Prakash at Mehta, They had strict Baana Requirements, and followed Rehat according to Rehatnamas, the tradition that they were instilled with, etc. 

women were only barred from Panj Pyarea Di Seva because of their criteria for Panj Pyare eligibility. 

Today, That's no longer the case, of course. 

and i I don't know what you mean by "we".

On September 12, 2016 at 8:20 PM, JasperS said:

Does discrimination fall into realm of manmat? Equality of all Sikhs is Gurmat.  Problem I have with Taksal maryada is telling women their husband is God. I don't think that is in line with Gurmat principles. I am not God to my wife anymore than she is to me.  It sounds really sexist to me and against Sikh principles.  This is only one example. For that reason I think Sikh Rehet Maryada is following closer according to what our Gurus taught. As kuttabanda2, and Amarjeet already said, Sikh Rehet Maryada was made as a minimum. As long as all others fit within that minimum, they can add whatever they want for their own dhera etc. But there is a fine line when it comes to discrimination is that considered adding to, or taking away? 

That's wrong. In the original manual of Taksal Maryada, the context and statement is different.

The Bhai Daya Singh Rehatnama is one of the most authentic Rehatnamas, despite there being interpolations in the work, a Shudh (pure) and original Sarroop was thankfully found by Dr. Trilochan Singh Ji. 

7 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

 

Which universities?

Guru Nanak Dev University (Amritsar), and Punjab University (Patiala) for sure.

 there are probably countless more Sikh manuscripts all across India, so there might be some Gurbilas Granths amongst other Universities as well. 

On September 1, 2016 at 3:38 AM, jaikaara said:

I understand bro , i too am not saying there shouldnt be any discussion but these critique views are generated mainly by the missionary groups who are a cross breed of the taliban and go to any length and breadth to disown Dasam baani and Puraatan maryada. If we go back to the baani as said before we will not need anything ..nothing at all. With this will you want to stop building Gurdwaras ?

The Missionaries aren't a cross breed of the Taliban, or even remotely similar. That's an extreme and poor comparison. I would find Taksalis to be more like the Taliban. The Missionaries are just overly skeptical, anti-mystical, and paranoid. As for the Baani, Baani has been and is being interpreted in numerous ways. You can find a basic framework or common ground. As for 'Puraatan Maryada', I've already said that many people claim this and that  "Puraatan Maryada" is solely substantiated on the of "Seena Baseena" claim, which isn't entirely false, but is indeed questionable.

On September 1, 2016 at 8:05 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Yes I have been confused myself. i though there was only one and went to a bookstore in india and asked for it. It was only when i got back to UK i realised that there are more!

Which other authors have you come across ?

We've all come across Kuir Singh's and Sukha Singh's the two most well known in regards to Patshahi Dasvin. As they are published and printed now.

Some Individuals, libraries and Universities have manuscripts that have the title 'Gurbilas Patshahi Dasvin' or 'Gurbilas Patshahi Chevin' and are entirely different, not even a drop of similarity.  I saw one which wasn't even in poetry, but Prose. Another that seemed to name an author called 'Gurbaksh'. They're several separate works from different authors that just bear the same name, like the Janamsakhis, you'll find numerous manuscripts that are just simply titled 'JanamSakhi Baba Nanak' or along those lines, and I think the Gurbilas Granths have a similar story. It seems they haven't  been noticed by any Scholar or Researcher.

Interestingly, I actually met a random Baba at a Wedding who had seen this Pothi In India, he recounted something about Naam Simran techniques and practices being prescribed in there.

On 8/18/2016 at 0:51 PM, Guest Brahmgyani Sikh Khoj said:

The 5 Ks are a modern invention. Do not misconstrue my words, the Kesh, Kangha, Kachehra, Kirpan and Kara are of immense importance for the Khalsa. Some of these were also in use amongst Sikhs prior to Guru Gobind Singh, albeit perhaps not as mandatory as after the Vaisakhi of Guru Gobind Singh.No old source (i.e. 1700 - 1800) mentions the 5 kakkaars as such. With the exception of the dubious Sri Gur Katha & Guru Kian Sakhian most other, more renowned Granths (therefore not more authentic) mention the Trai Mudra (i.e. Kesh Kach Kirpan). It is just our fascination with the 5 that we turned it into five kakkaars (even though Kara and Kangha were compulsory too) just like we turned one Akaal Bunga into 5 Takhts and even the nitnem doesn't have 5 banian if we examine it historically.  

Yeah, Uhmm that's BS. Sri Gur Katha isn't dubious, you are. You cast doubts and concoct crap quite skillfully. Had you read the Sri Gur katha and it's background, you probably wouldn't be making these ridiculous and baseless assertions. I've already said enough about it's authenticity in the Sri Gur Katha thread.  A manuscript of Bhai Prahlad Singh's Rehatnama (as far as the inconsistent dating argument goes, that date isn't written by Bhai Prahlad Singh, in old manuscripts you'll see all kinds of additions and insertions made here and there. In the case of the date, it either appears in the middle of the Rehatnama, towards the end, or not at all.) has A Chaupai mentioning the Panj Kakkars.   

Despite calling yourself a Khoji, you don't actually do any Khoj.  You'll read a little here and there before you begin your drivel.  

On 8/30/2016 at 4:43 AM, jaikaara said:

The Japji sahib, The Jaap Sahib The Akaal Ustat Sahib or even Sukhmani sahib ..these banis indicate that core Gurmat is the direct connection between Hari Purakh Akaal and us...if you dive deeper you would not need the Gurdwaara , the Prakaash and Sukhaasan as well as Deg rituals and Chaur sahib...just shoonya...HOWEVER ...does a human being right form the beginning understand this ? in generic term a good Sikh is one who regularly visits the Gurdwaara does sewa and contributes his daswandh along with doing Nitnem. In Gurbani Guru Maharaj has time and again mentioned that people who cut off themselves from the world living in caves and growing their kes too are not promised an awastha ...Then ..how does the so called Gursikhi jeevan of just doing things ritually guarantee anything ? Rituals are part of a Organized Religion and Sangat - Pangat were introduced by Guru ji Thyself for a reason. The Rituals at Hazoor Sahib are a mixture of Udasi, Nirmale and Nihang Sampradaas and rather than ridiculing them one should understand that they are cultural influences which play a vital role in the militarisation of the Khalsa...not everyone can be a Baba Deep Singh ji ..not every one is a Charhdikala awastha ...let us first correct our own self than we pinpoint Sampradaas maryada.

I'm not dismissing Ritualism as a whole. There's a fine line between critique and ridiculing.  And I do understand that they are cultural influences, I just don't think that's "Original" or "Seeneh Baseeneh di Maryada", I also don't believe that the Sampardaic/Snaatan side of the Panth is in any position for moral or religious condemnation of the SGPC-Singh Sabha faction.  Also, Telling people to "Correct our own self self" shouldn't be used to shut down any kind of discussion.  I do however agree with your first few statements.  

On 8/28/2016 at 0:55 PM, paapiman said:

There might be Manmat practices like caste based discrimination, etc, which have crept into some groups of the sampradas, but one cannot deny the fact that there are certain groups within the sampradas which practice Sikhism, the way it was done, during Satguru jee's times. Like for example,

DDT under Srimaan Sant Baba Mohan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale

Nanaksar under Srimaan Sant Baba Gurdev Singh jee Samadh Bhai

Nihangs under Sriman Sant Baba Nihal SIngh jee Harianvelan

It is much better/safer to follow such groups, rather than a flawed/incomplete man made SGPC Maryada (which has been forced on the Panth) or cults which promote Manmat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I would disagree, Ji. DDT, Hazooris, and Nanaksar are also man made, (they formed around the same time as the Tatt Khalsa Singh Sabha did), as well as every other Samparda, their supposed lineage and claims aren't evidences of their purity . The caste discrimination, inconsistent Rehat/Maryada, is enough to doubt and disprove the ideas of these sects/cults/deras, In 1877, Chaupai Sahib wasn't even included in the Nitnem banis in their Rehatnama (This is the time when "Puraatan Maryada was followed".  These people are as flawed/incomplete and man made as the SGPC, The only thing the SGPC didn't do was concoct a fictitious history and connect a few well known historical personalities to their lineage. They're also evidently as Manmat as everyone else.  There is no 100% Puraatan Maryada or sect.  And they certainly aren't practicing Sikhi "the way it was done."

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, can you please list those practices and beliefs and explain how they go against Gurmat?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Like wearing Dhotis at Hazoor Sahib, Aarti being done with a thaal, lamp, and a conch shell, tilaks at Hazoor Sahib, in Nihang Dals they used to practice caste-based discrimination in the Amrit Sanchar a few decades back. Offering Blood sacrifices to Shastars, etc. Hazoor Sahib is a great example.  As to how they go against Gurmat, they're blind rituals and practices that infected the Sikh Panth and now are considered an unquestionable 'Maryada' by some because the Sant-Mahapurakhs and falani Granth mentions so and so.

On 10/5/2007 at 11:37 PM, jassasingh said:

in amrit sanchars of damdami taksal the parkash of dasam guru darbar is done in a separate palki but equal to guru granth sahib ... i think from this taksals views of dasam darbar are clear ...

I think that's new, In an Amrit Sanchar 3-4 years ago in California, they only had prakash of SGGS.