Jatro

5 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Is this the same son that was adopted by Mata Sundri?

Yes brother, same guy

9 hours ago, JustAnotherSingh said:

@Jatro Damn, that's some awesome stuff! Some sort of tangential points to think on:

1) Regarding the usage of Singh; even Sainapat (one of the earliest Sikh writers) and Nand Lal don't put Singh in their names or say it much in their writings. It seems like you can slowly see the adoption of Singh as a word, to the point where we use it as a specific noun to refer to Khalsa (something not the case w/Rajputs where it's just a surname).

2) Who was Ajit Singh?
 

3) this whole struggle for legitimacy is so intriguing...Sikhs in the later period (Ranjit Singh's time) seemed to be much more chill with syncretism, so this evolution is very cool as well...

Ajit Singh was adopted son of Mata Sundari ji. I agree with your point about the adoption of Singh, probably happened over a period of time.

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

Brother, what work is this from? 

First two pics are from Gurbilas Patshahi 10, the next three are from the foreword to Guru Kiyan Sakhian and the last one is from, as amardeep ji rightly pointed out, the Bansavalinama

Towards the end of the Charitar there is mention of some supernatural entities, one of then is 'Jachh' or Yaksha which are spirits with extraordinary powers. In classical Sanskrit poet Kalidas' epic poem Meghdoot there is the story of a Yaksha who is so engrossed in sensual pleasure with his wife that he neglects his worldly duties and is as a result banished far away from his wife. So, i think the point being made in the Charitar is that when people are engrossed in Maya and neglect Dharma ie their duties bad consequences will follow. So looking at Charitars as anti-this or that is not productive instead they are a statement of how Maya (the 'Nakati' in Bhagat Kabir ji's words) can lead us astray.

2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Have you read the foreward to that? I don't believe it is contemporary myself. 

It was written in AD 1790 in Bhatt-akhri, later it was transliterated in Gurmukhi in 1868, so it's fairly close.

3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Bro, can't you stick up a few pages of the original text up so we can all see? 

 

That's how we do on this forum!

 

It's the main platform for sharing Gurmukhi text and encouraging an interest in Panjabi/Sikh literature amongst western based Sikhs. So any effort or time spent you spend doing this won't be a waste - far from it.

 

Plus I would personally love a little peek. 

Sure brother, Paapiman ji has quoted the relevant passage from the main body of Guru Kiyan Sakhian, i'll first post the relevant passage from Gurbilas Patshahi 10 and then from the foreword Guru Kiyan Sakhiyan which contains extracts from Bhatt vahis and a footnote on Baba ji's lineage. I'll also share little bit from Bansavalinama by Kesar Singh Chhibber. I don't thing we should make too much out of the missing 'Singh' from Baba ji's name, i think it's largely a stylistic choice early writers may have made depending upon the colloquial usage. Also, i think Sikh and Khalsa may have been used interchangeably by these writers.

20 hours ago, amardeep said:

Gurfateh

On this forum as well as in recent decade amongst the sanatan lot it has been argued that Banda SIngh Bahadur never took amrit since there are hardly any pre-singh sabha litterature that mentions so. Most 18th century writings mention him as Banda Bahadur.

I just came across this in the Panth Prakash:

 

 

Banda Singh also entreated the Guru to bestow him with certain miraculous powers,
So that he might also win some fame and reputation.
But if he ever betrayed and defied the Will of the Khalsa,
Then the Guru had every right to withdraw His pleasure. (8)
Hearing this, the guru repeated his earlier declaration,
That he had handed over all the powers to the Khalsa Panth.
Since the Guru had admitted Banda Singh into the Khalsa Panth,
Banda Singh was equally entitled to share those powers. (9)
Whenever the need arose, he should gather an assembly of five Singhs,
And make a joint prayer for the fulfilment of his wish.
Receiving these instructions, Banda Singh launched on his mission,
And marched with his contingent towards Sirhind. (10)

 

I looked at Gurbilas Patshahi 10, there it is mentioned that Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave him shastar or weapons after he became a Sikh and also provided him with 4 'birs' who became Sikhs and were given shastar. I think shastar are so clearly linked with Amrit, so it should not leave much room for doubt. This becomes even more certain when Koer Singh Kalal says that Banda violated the Rehat after becoming egotistical. The question of violation only arises if he was following it in the first place, so he must have been following it. Also i read in Guru Kiyan Sakhian that Banda's descendants had the 'Singh' in their name and the Bhatt Vahi-s say that they are from the 'bans'(lineage) of Guru Gobind Singh, again this could only be said of a Khalsa.

On 3/25/2016 at 1:52 AM, chatanga1 said:

I have had a look through the forum but cannot find a topic focusing on "Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin" so have decided to start one here. This granth was discussed a little in "Sri Gur Sobha" but I feel needs a topic of it's own.

If the admins can do kirpa please merge those few posts concerning Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin with this.

This is a granth that is quite a big piece of literature, and is stated to be written  by Bhagat Singh in 1718. Some professors/intellectuals have dismissed this granth as being written in the 1840s as some recensions bear events relating to this time period. I have started to read a book called "Guru Hargobind in Sikh tradition" by Gurbachan Singh Nayyar. He has addressed this issue of events and states that:

"the scribe clearly laid down at one place that he supplemented the data given by the author with his own notes in order to provide continuity to the events mentioned by the author itself. In this connection the scribe mentioned the name of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and his firman or the order of the demolition of Sarai Nur." (pg 3).

 

 

I read somewhere that GB6 is the oldest source which mentions the establishment of Akal Takht by Guru Hargobind Sahib. SGPC had published it many years ago but due to pressure of some narrow minded people stopped publishing it.

On 3/26/2016 at 9:49 PM, paapiman said:

Quote by Chanakya jee

Note - This might be useful in understanding some of the Charitars.

 

 

Ref: Rule the World - The way I did

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Bro there is another story involving a prostitute which led to the great scholar-king Bharthari becoming a renunciate and writing the Vairagya Shatak. The story goes that Bharthari got hold of the fruit of immortality and gave it to his favourite queen. The queen was having an illicit relationship with Bharthari's servant and gave the fruit to him. The servant in turn gave it to a prostitute he used to frequent. The prostitute want to make amends for her lifestyle and decided to give the fruit to king Bharthari, who was like a father to his subjects. Bharthari upon receiving the fruit asked how the prostitute got it, she told him about the servant. Upon figuring out the queen's infidelity he was overcome with extreme Vairagya and ceded the throne to his brother Vikramaditya. Bharthari then became a disciple of Gorkhnath and also wrote the Vairagya Shatak. I've read that a translated version of the Vairagya Shatak was also taught in sampradayak Taksals of Sikhi.

I've heard a katha of Suraj Prakash where Sant Giani Inderjit Singh ji Raqbe wale say that the Bharthari mentioned on SGGSJM is the same as king Bharthari and he was given mukti by Guru Nanak Dev ji

2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Having read tons of historical books over the years I have to say I'm very cautious about books written by white man about such subjects. Yes, I read them for any new information and sources but......they just never ever seem to overcome their own 'occidental' biases. When you read their books there is always either overt or subtle assumptions in the writing that stem from some deeply rooted (and sometimes possibly subconscious) cultural/racial supremacist mindset.

There is often a subtle theme of Sikhs being upstarts and deserving of being attacked and subverted embedded into such works. They use the juxtaposition of Sikh valor/bravery and their own dubious victory to try and underscore their own assumed intellectual and military superiority. They cover this up by throwing a few compliments our way, which certain weak minded brothers lap up with excess enthusiasm blinding them to the truth. They especially love doing this along caste lines, with certain dim-witted communities lapping it up like love starved orphans. The rare honourable man from within them (like Cunningham) who was obviously deeply troubled by the duplicitous, back-stabbing nature of his people in relation to Sikhs (which he payed for with his life) - gets completely ignored. Problem is, too many of our lot don't seem to have the reflective, critical thinking skills to assess such works and get whipped up by insidious flattery instead. 

So I'd be interested to know the background of this author? And given the conspicuous European lack of success in their modern day attempts at international imperialism, I hope it isn't another attempt to try and boost their waning moral by harking back to a time when they had a very murky 'success' in  attacking a state that they had positioned as their 'allies only a few years earlier. What is Andrew Preziosi's objective? 

 

I think he is a military history enthusiast, a lot of information about us is lying unused in British archives, if he can provide good info on the composition of the Khalsa then it would be a good achievement. Of course, i agree with all that you have said, we should examine such works critically

This might be of interest to all of you http://www.helion.co.uk/new-and-forthcoming-titles/the-sikh-wars-source-book-the-rise-and-fall-of-the-khalsa-1799-1849.html

7 hours ago, amardeep said:

Its cool to have you here on the forum. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us and welcome to the forum :)

Thanks brother :)

9 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Tried translating it, this is as far as I got. 

It's obvious BVS is using basic science he has learned from his western education and is experimenting with applying it to Gurbani. Specifically the second para is directly speaking about what is known as 'kinetic theory' which is core material for 15 year olds learning physics in the UK.

To me the really interesting thing is how, due to colonialism, we see the emergence of teekas that are in all essence experimental in their explanations. Before western science came to Panjab via colonisation, no one would ever interpret bani in this way. They'd be much more likely to do it along Indic lines. 

On a deeper level what do we make of that? 

This is partly the reason why i like the Faridkot teeka explanation better, it basically gives the traditional 5 element explanation and the 'pavan devta' explanation. I think that is probably more in line with what the Guru meant. This can also be seen in the "So dar', especially the 'gavan tudno...'. If we consider 'pavan, paani, baisantar' as devta-s then it becomes easy to interpret those verses. If we don't do that and instead rely on a more "scientific" explanation we end with more difficulties IMO.

5 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Thanks for the info bro.

Do you know, of any Gyani, who is working on the entire Katha of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Katha is only available for specific Banis of Dasam Granth by many people

Don't know if all of you already know this but the full katha of Prachin Panth Prakash by Giani Sher Singh ji is up at gurmatveechar.com

11 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Just bumping this up because I want to look at it more carefully later. Great share. What teeka is this from? 

It's from Santhiya Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Volume 1, I downloaded it from gurmatveechar.com

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, can you please provide a brief description of the explanation by Bhai saab Bhai Vir SIngh jee?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes brother, Bhai saab basically says that 'pavan' in Punjabi has feminine gender but here it has been used in the masculine gender so it could mean 'sookham pavan' or gases such as hydrogen helium etc from which the planets were formed. Alternatively it could refer to stages of creation, so first we had earth as a giant clump of gas from which liquid and solid forms emerged, after all of this Akal Purakh fused the 'jot' and human life came about. I'm attaching the extract from the teeka

12 hours ago, paapiman said:

What does "Lakhey" and "Vaach" mean?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

They are vedantic words - Lakshyarth and Vaacharth. It's about how Paramatma cannot be defined by Shakti-vritti (Vaacharth or exactly what the words means) but only through Lakhana-vritti (lakshyarth or indication)

5 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, Baba jee's kathas are not very hard to understand. Guess - Baba jee deliberately used simple language to make it easy for the Sangat. 

Can you please confirm the above?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes brother, Sant ji's main aim was to make the sangat connect with Gurbani, he never really went into academic type of exposition except when it was absolutely necessary

2 hours ago, amardeep said:

Bhagatsingh:
Have you looked into the old Nirmala writings on Sikhi? The old nirmale had a huge amount of knowledge and insigths into the indic traditions and often interpreted Sikhi in lights of these sanskrit roots of each Words used in Gurbani. I think you would find the writings of Pandit Gulab Singh (misl period) and Pandit Tara Singh Narotam (early colonial period) interesting in this regard. It would be interesting to see how Pandit Tara Singh Narotam interprets Dasam Bani for instance. He often drew on bengali vedant in his interpretation of key concepts in Sikhi (avatarvaad, maya etc).

Pandit Gulab Singh wrote his Moksha Panth Prakasha in the 1770s. The book is a discussion on vaishnava mat, shaivism etc. and how they relate to Sikhi (the book follows a Indian tradition of the different religions discussing the other religions and how their own tradition is superior). Interestingly he does'nt use the Word hindu at any time. Like you say, he considers them all as seperate religions. Obviosly his take is that they are all flawed in comparision to Sikhi.

I dont understand a Word of their writings and on a quick glance they look extremely Deep. Pandit Gulab Singh's books are even more tricky since they are written in verse.

Sant Gurbachan Singh ji Khalsa's katha-s are a synthesis of writings like these. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam ji's works are out of print, only available on Panjab Digital Library website. 

The best explanation of Nirgun/Sargun i've seen in my life. Bhagatmala is truly a treasure trove, a must must read

17 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Isn't the 405th the Sri Chaupai Sahib?

I haven't seen it myself but i've heard from numerous people that the Sikhaan Di Bhagatmala contains some verses wherein it is written that the Dasam Granth is divided into three forms of bani. Amrit Bani (Jaap Sahib, Akal Ustat etc), Yudh Mai Bani (Chabis avatar, Bachitar Natak, Chandi Charitras etc) and Sansaar di bani (Charitro pakhyan).  As such, there is very little spiritual teachings to be found within the Charitro Pakhyan and likewise very little battle narrations and techniques to be found within the Sri Akal Ustat and Jaap Sahib etc.

The signature  statement of a charitar ending doesn't come after the Chaupai, will check on the Bhagatmala bit