ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ

2 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Brrooooo. I wondered that too. Irish for example doesn't fit roman phoenems at all. 

i THINK culturally probably could be promoted for Northern Indian languages or adapted in Africa / Native American cultures....but only if they want it..I doubt any European culture may consider it

I wonder how many languages which do not have an official alphabet or have English Alphabet imposed on them could benefit from adapting Gurmukhi? Maybe Aboriginal languages or African one? Or minority Indian languages or Native American ones? Or should it only be confined to Sikh or Panjabi communities?

I disagree with the comment about Darsham Granth and Adi Granth being the same, otherwise an ok summary

https://historicallyspeakingssc.wordpress.com/2022/01/05/a-history-of-the-gurmukhi-script-of-the-punjabi-language/

https://omniglot.com/writing/punjabi.htm

https://dic.learnpunjabi.org/

I use this to write my stories

also this

https://www.shabdkosh.com/dictionary/english-punjabi/

On 4/9/2010 at 10:10 PM, dalsingh101 said:

This one is EYE OPENING!!

 

http://news.ukpha.org/2010/02/when-the-wild-proved-more-educated/

 

 

When the ‘Wild’ proved more educated

 

By Hema on February 19, 2010

 

 

When the British conquered Lahore in 1849, Lord Dalhousie, the Governor General, declared that he would educate the “wild illiterate Punjabis” in a new system of Anglo-Vernacular education. When they started the East India Company Board was shocked by what already existed.

 

The board was amazed to find that the literacy rate in Lahore and its suburbs was over 80 per cent, and this was qualified by the description that this 80 per cent comprised of people who could write a letter. Today, in 2010, less than nine per cent can do this, while 38 per cent can sign their name, and, thus, are officially ‘literate’. If you happen to read Arnold Woolner’s book ‘History of Indigenous Education in the Punjab’ you will come across some amazing facts we today just do not know. To understand the situation it would interest scholars to go through the ‘A.C. Woolner Collection in the Punjab University Library. My review is a scant one. But studying other similar pieces provides a picture of the educational system as it existed in Lahore in 1849 when the British took over.

 

The publication ‘The Marquis of Dalhousie’s Administration of British India’ provides an amazing quote (page 345): “The board discovered to its surprise that the incidence of literacy in Punjab was higher than any other place in India. In Lahore city alone there were 16 elementary schools for girls alone, and to our amazement we discovered that co-educational schools were aplenty”. Mind you we are fact is also mentioned by the great Sir Aurel Stein, a former principal of the Oriental College, Lahore, in his research on the ‘great game’ where he described the teaching excellence of the Vedas and Dharma Sutras in the Hindu educational institutions of Lahore. The Sikh schools, the Muslim ‘madrassahs’ and the Hindu schools catered to the latest developments in mathematics and astronomy, all of which assisted the Sikh rulers maintain an edge over the British in the rest of India.

 

We also know from the book ‘Punjabi Grammar’ compiled by Dr. Carry of Fort Williams College, Calcutta, in 1812, that it based its grammar from the farmed ‘Punjabi Qaida’, which was made compulsory for all Punjabi women to read during the reign of Maharajah Ranjit Singh. Every village ‘lambardar’ made sure that every female in every village had a copy of the ‘qaida’, which made sure that literacy was in-built into the Punjabi State at the family level. After taking over, the EIC Board allowed the ‘madrasahs’ at even the village level to continue to operate. However, to enforce the English language as the base for all State functions, which seemed the sensible thing for the English to do in order to rule effectively, central schools for higher education were set up. The model for this came, initially, in the shape of the Rang Mahal School by Ewing, and then by the Central Model School at Lower Mall.

 

But the most detailed study of the educational system in place in Lahore before the British took over came in the shape of the research undertaken by Dr. Leitner, the first principal and founder of Government College, Lahore and the Punjabi University. The eminent linguist described in some detail how the ‘Punjabi Qaida’ was removed from the scene, at even the village level, after the events of 1857, when it was felt that unless Punjabi was removed as the language of first choice, the ‘wild Punjabis’ would soon overcome the British. Both Leitner and John Lawrence disagreed with this strategy, while Henry Lawrence, Dalhousie and Montogomery wanted a military solution to “end Punjabi educational dominance once English was introduced”.

 

In the de-militarisation of the Punjab, “over 120,000 cartloads of arms and swords were confiscated”, and in the process, says Edwardes and Merville in their publication of 1867 (page 433-34) it was thought important “to make sure militant Punjabis – Sikhs, Muslim and Hindus – and their language, were crushed by removing not only all arms and swords, but more importantly their books, which were all burnt”. Sir Aurel Stein described how a wealth of books on mathematics and astronomy were lost in this ‘action’. For those still interested, samples of those books can be found in the Punjab Public Library.

 

But which sort of schools and ‘madrassahs’ and ‘shawalas’ existed in Lahore before the British came in 1849 to ‘civilise’ the people of this ancient city? The Muslim ‘madrassahs’ were located at every ‘guzzar’ and the madrassahs opened by the family of fakir azizuddin were considered among the most modern in the entire subcontinent. They not only taught Punjabi, Arabic, Persian and Urdu languages, they also, at the elementary level, excelled at mathematics. Thus the basics of the logical transfer of knowledge had already been laid at the basic level. It now seems that the British, against the popular belief, actually destroyed this structure, to forever dent the ‘formal learning institutions’ available to the Punjabi people.

 

Higher mathematics and astronomy, as well as chemistry and physics, not to mention history and geography, were taught in these’ madrassahs’. The Punjab Public Library has a few beautiful leather-bound books of that time period in the reference section. Just for the record, these were bound in the square opposite the mosque of Wazir Khan, now consumed by illegal structures. For those interested in the classics, you will know that the British Museum Library has ample examples of ‘Lahore Classics’, all hand-written and those edges are painted in floral designs.

 

The research carried out by Lord Osbourne (1804-1888) in his description of the “Court and Camp of Ranjeet Singh’ describes how well-educated his camp-followers were. The same can be seen in the article on the subject by Sir Henry Griffin. The Dogra brothers who ruled the Punjab in important positions were leaders in setting up Hindus schools, just as among the Sikhs the Majhathia Malwai and Dhanna Singh families led in the setting up of schools for Sikhs, which also admitted Muslim and Hindu students. A few of them were co-educational, which was revolutionary for their concept at that time. It seems the French influence was also a reason for this.

 

In the years 2010 when the teaching of history is no longer allowed, where the exact sciences are deliberately avoided in the official syllabus, and where the system of examinations have created two distinct social and economic classes – Urdu and English medium – a study of our past in terms of its educational achievements needs to be undertaken by every child, so that we can pick up where we left off almost 160 years ago.

 

By Majid Sheikh

 

Dawn, Sunday, 24 January 2010, Lahore Metropolitan Page # 16

Anger..No Emoji for Anger so that is how I am showing it..just the one word

10 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Didn't you write Punjabi lessons for beginners?

Do you have link to them?

yes

http://www.5abi.com/5ratan/

1 hour ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

It seems all your works books/short stories/articles/audios are scattered on different websites.  

It might be good to have all the links to your work on one page.

By the way listened to the audio  book of yours you posted.  It was easy to understand and created a good scene with the way you used Punjabi words.

Thanks. If you want I can collate them all here. It was normally Dalsingh100 doing that kind of stuff. I feel a bit arrogant to do that myself, which is why I haven't specifically done it like that. I had sent my Chita Te Kala to be made into an Audiobook but so far have not been told when and if that will be made available

I rather talk about the language on my other thread than carry this one on if this is where it leads . My difficulty with other subjects on this forum is I am A SIKH but to me calling it a religion was really a western idea. If it was not seen in simple terms of mattha teking in front of the GGS, people would realise it  is actually Sikhi and not Sikhism...thus the tenets and ideas can be developed more as a chosen way of life and philosophy....which will lead to the rational side of Sikhi dealing with Science etc..and thus it is an eastern philosophical school of thought taught by 10 teachers whose ideas should be revered rather than blindly praying to them like their are Hindu Gods. Is that not the very rejection they practised? Going off piste now...sorry

7 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

That's what I was saying. The caste issue in our community is a jut issue in my opinion. It's these people's actions that have caused others to react and open their own Gurdwaras, or even leave the panth, to escape these people's backwards stupidity. 

 

Personally I think Panjabi culture is a pile of shyte, and that explains why most Panjabis aren't interested in reading or developing their literature. It's caste ridden as bad as any Hindu society. The 'art' it creates is usually of a very low standard in comparison to equivalents of other more developed cultures. Essentially it promotes casteism, public exhibitions of drinking and dancing like a mindless buffoon like that was the best thing since sliced bread. Then we have the deeply rooted culture of families attacking each other over land and property. There are some positives like generosity, but I doubt that is a 'Panjabi' thing but probably more of a Sikh effect on Panjabis who've been linked to the movement historically, as I know plenty of pak panjabis, and they are as stingy as f**k. All in all, this 'culture' gives no big contribution to society other than entertaining them in the most crass, oafish way conceivable.

And if after over a decade, here I find myself, still discussing and explaining this, to people excited about the release of a film made in pakistan about a caste that is running the Sikh movement into the ground - then it's clearly time for me to exit the merry go round. 

Re the film it wasn't the Jatt aspect I was interested in at all, in fact it is reduced to just his character name in it. Other aspects of the film mean its a big leap in film making that all.

re all the other things you have said about it,..well you are correct. I come historically from the Jatts and yes it is us who go on and on and on and on about it. And yes all your other points are valid. But if you are encouraging me to stick too doing my thing, I encourage you to ignore and carry on doing your contribution ..the reality id its not just Panjabis..95% of the word population is as stupid as you just described and always will be...its the easy and comfortable path for them 

15 hours ago, ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ said:

your participation is enough. i feel like this is a scene out of the Magnificent 7 where I now say ...That's 2

Do these two likes make it 4?

2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think you need to be more specific and say who it is exactly that can't let go of it. I think our people have made their own bed now. 

Anyone who has the word Jatt in his song to be honest or any other caste name..So many singers do it I can't be more specific than that other than googling up all their names and songs...but it isn't just the singers...normal people still use it for marriage proposals etc

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think all this caste based bollox doesn't do Sikhs any favours myself. 

That;s true. When I sing its praises I am only thinking about language and quality of film. Along with the original Gandasa story it is a reflection of a certain regionand time period. Caste has no space nowadays for sure. But even look at all the songs Sikhs singers still sing...our people just can't seem to let go of it

5 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

I'm too ignorant to be in a Pyare, and also slaving this year, but I love everything you just said. And you can count on my regular ignorant attendance and participation. 

your participation is enough. i feel like this is a scene out of the Magnificent 7 where I now say ...That's 2

2 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Edit the first post I think. 

thanks done

http://www.punjabizm.com/forums-vachitarvaadlok-112834-5-1.html

Kind of related to the ਬਾਗ਼ੀ ਬੱਤੀ  post

sorry about spelling mistake of Panjabi, didn't spot it. No idea how to change it in title

In short the idea is not necessarily to create a different type of literary movement in terms of something like Modernism, Romanticism etc, but more like a unit of few like minded individuals with broadly the same goals, such as Beat Poets or Bloomsbury group. Only unlike the latter two we don't know each other or are physically too far away from each other to meet up. I would like to propose the Sikhawareness forum as the conduit of communication and organisation,

No leader or Pardaan is required. No ਫ਼ਰਕ should take place.  Despite my title of the post it does not mean we exclude people from the subcontinent, or Panjabis who are of different castes ( As Sikhs we fundamentally reject such crap anyhow) or even religions. Again as Sikhs unlike other religions we do not call  ours the true one. We accept all and tell a Hindu for example to be the best Hindu he can etc. Anyhow such like matters are to be discussed and have already been discussed under other relevant topics. So this means the Muslim majority who make up most Panjabis can partake if they wish. Though I personally prefer to promote the Gurmukhi writing system, we cannot be prejudice to other alphabets including Latin / English one.

If there is an appetite for this , this thread will soon show that, as it will if there is not.

My proposal is simple,

- Promotion of Reading Gurmukhi books and literature, whether religious / philosophical or Poetry  or fiction,

- Promotion of contemporary Panjabi language, in particular the way it has evolved outside Panjab ( India and Pakistan) for example in English Language countries. 

- Pride in our different format of Panjabi, be it due to lexicon, grammar or Style. And to write in its authentic voice primarily for our future generations but also to have some compromise to make it work for Panjabis from Panjab where in reality most readers are from.

- Experimenting in our own way with the language and style ( thus the proposed group title ਬਾਗ਼ੀ ਬੱਤੀ ( see link...You can join this group to discuss the same too... https://www.facebook.com/groups/362576490509036/  ).

- Creating our own literature

If people are interested let me know here. As there were only 5 Pyaray, I see no concern in worrying about getting more than that in numbers anyhow.

I long ago labelled my own style as ਵਿਚਿਤਰਵਾਦ as a mash up of typical English literature in areas as diverse as Sci-Fi and Fantasy . Magical realism and new type of sentence structure. Taht can be up for discussion, but no one has to follow that way of doing things

12 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Roop brother

 

I'm doing some mad shifts right now, so I've not had time to even read what you've posted above apart from a few lines. Once I get a break (hopefully soon), I'll read and respond more comprehensively. 

I will quickly add this before I get my head down for some sleep. You are a trailblazer, unquestionably. I imagine it will be lonely in terms of not having peers. That's probably a good indication that what you are doing is special. If it's mass applause and validation you want from your work, you aren't likely to get it.

 

You keep your head strong, and follow your heart and spirit. It taken you here - stop doubting yourself. 

Sorry Dal. I didn't mean to stress you. Work comes first. I appreciate what you have said. I did want to message you but the website doesn't let me.

I guess the issue I have is having not been schooled in Panjabi even in the west, I am prone to grammar and occasional spelling errors. What makes it more difficult is I am writing my syntax as we Punjabis ( Sikhs really as I can't speak for the other Panjabis if we are using religious labels) in the west speak. It is a fact English syntax impact us. This means Indian Panjabi readers are less forgiving as to them the Creole dialect of ours is alien and wrong. That is understandable and I do try and write as close to Taxila / Kendri Panjabi as I am able to but I enjoy making my sentences the way the writer in English I read structure them. SO it becomes depressing when all I get is your work is full of galtian even after 20 years of self learning.

The fact is many so called famous Theth Panjabi writers have errors but because the world now knows I am from the west even the most uneducated one of them feels they can getaway with saying it to me. It becomes depressing as the natural audience for me is YOU, and very few of YOU will read Panjabi outside of a religious / Philosophical book.

Only if you think that there are even 50 potential readers in the west / world who would appreciate it I feel like carrying on. Otherwise no, I don't.

If you think there are 50 ( to date only 3 or 4 on Sikhawareness I have noticed take an interest) then I will write a separate post with a proposal about all this,

On the positive side some people in Panjab have began recognising me, so maybe those who burn me down are just jealous? And also I could run my manuscripts by so called Panjabi experts before I go to publish in future

Dalsingh101 himself hasn't responded

12 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Maybe it's time to shift your focus slightly. Into getting a Bunga together that does Kirtan, arts and Literatures, with a stem program. Do youth outreach. 

Then you'll have members to do seva for media productions. Using in house musicians and artists. 

You need to make movies bro. Animated or live action. 

Everyone would watch them and suddenly your Punjabi would be the future. 

The movies aside you could fund the Bunga eventually with youtube income from small videos on all sorts of topics. From the educational materials you use in the Bunga, to Kirtan, to small shorts or songs the kids made. Anything bro.  

I am considering starting a reading group of just a few maybe  Lehar,,,on Sikhawareness, depends upon feedback on all this

12 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

I think your dialect could be hollywood punjabi. Most readily understood and sub titled. I'm convinced you already played some important role. 

Thanks for your confidence, but really need to think who will be motivated to use Punjabi from us Baharlay Banday I think