ਰੂਪ ਢਿੱਲੋਂ

Originally Posted by Kulvanth Kaur in City Sikhs about my book. Now reposting this and the rest of the series that was posted here..

Further info

For those who want to get hold of the book there are 2 publishers

In India there is Lokgeet Parkashan the imprint of Unistar Books

In Holland there is BLURB the printing provider for Khusjeevan Kitaaban

Links for info

http://www.unistarbooks.com/fiction/4224-o.html

https://www.blurb.co.uk/b/5057516

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I understand. And from my perspective these two responses are predictable. (They didn't read the pdf, just the posted text btw and yes, the pdf is now downloadable but remember what I said about having to break out of the narrative to look up words, even as footnotes!)  

The first feedback: way too simple and anglicised. Preferences might also play a big part as the reader stated that they are more attracted too Sikhi based Gurmukhi. Their vocab is already probably advanced and maybe fiction like this is not stimulating to them?  

For the second, they experienced the same thing as me, and maybe got tired of having to look up words. I'm with you on the point of fostering a culture where people should be encouraged to have a dictionary handy when reading, and stretching the reader, but I think this should be minimised at that level.  We should recognise in this day and age of diminishing attention spans (due to snappy phone technology), modern times seem to condition youngsters to be lazy in this respect, or have relatively poor concentration. You shouldn't worry about apparent 'simplification', because advance readers could always jump quickly to your more complex works.   

yeah sahi gal..that makes sense. Thanks for all this time and effort by the way

You are the first reader who seems to be on my level and gets what i am doing

Anyhow I'd say once I have finished Haul ( which is for the older reader who wants to be challenged) I shall go back to drawing board and restart Jinn story

8 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

^^^^

The above comments are all about the Dark Narnia piece Roop!

ok that makes sense...Yeah I did make it a bit bland and simplistic because I was thinking of UK teenager not Punjabi born Canadian immigrant who I am sure had a higher level vocab before he/she left Punjab. I accept the sentences are a little english..but that's both intentional and natural given who I am and who when I wrote it I THOUGHT my reader was..I can easily go back to the drawing board.

To be fair to me when I learnt English way back in the 1970s, I recall our school teachers encouraging us to always use a dictionary and have one next to you...I think as much as it may annoy the kids of the west if they are using the books to improve their Punjabi there is nothing wrong with giving them a little pain..as they get older and read more they eventually won't have to. thats my view at least.

Did these guy read the last PDF I added? That has footnotes to prevent going to a dictionary. Is that readable now that I am a member of Sikhawareness??

ritish raised adult Sikh:

Even some of the most devout NRI-born Sikhs barely know the language. Most lovers of fiction read for pleasure. If they're having to fish out the dictionary to understand even a sentence, it becomes an academic exercise; a chore.

If he wants an audience and a market, he'd be better off writing in English and tailoring the character archetypes using Punjabi culture as an anchor to get his message across. I admire the effort and the desire to produce Punjabi language content, but as Jai Tegang said it takes a master writer in Punjabi to produce free-flowing, lyrical prose. Otherwise it just reads like a technical manual or a non-fiction article.

Trouble is the current vocab knowledge I am guessing of British Punjabi Sikhs who have not read ate least several Nanak Singh, Sohan Singh Seetal, etc etc novels is so basic to make it simplier I'll get the same kind of comments made by the Canadian above, or it will be considered so basic it wil be laughed off as my early writing was..so whereas I get what this person is saying, but it is incumbent on the reader to make some effort to improve their vocab ( if we are talking again about Haul), but if they are saying this about Nina and the Iliti Jinn then I think I need that friend of yours who teaches punjabi to give me an idea of level of British reader standard, which is why I posted it here in the first place for feedback. I have been advised by one person I should maybe write for Native teenagers and its up the western ones to learn the words, as the market in both Indian and Pakistani Punjab is huge as is dying for teenage books, whereas hardly any western Punjabi can speak or understand Punjabi

17 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

You're going to have ups and downs. I think you've found your passion here though? You'll never please everyone, and like any skill, you have to hone it over time. You have to be thick skinned (which, given your perseverance thus far, you probably are).  

Here's some more feedback: 

 

Canadian adult who immigrated from Indian under the age of ten:

there are quite a few gramatical errors, not sure if this is just the rough draft? Sounds very bland and simplistic, tbh.

I was a native speaker who migrated early and completely forgot it all. Re-learned it from scratch in later years. Developed a great deal of love and admiration for Gurbani's poetic value and grammar. The contemporary Punjabi works feel too dry and dull and appear as an attempt at "aglicizing", or almost mentally translating, the Punjabi style of writing, imho. if that makes sense?

I always found the non-religious gurmukhi literature very simplistic and difficult to engage my interest with, so i mostly stuck with Gurbani, steeks, sant-books. 

 

British raised adult Sikh:

Even some of the most devout NRI-born Sikhs barely know the language. Most lovers of fiction read for pleasure. If they're having to fish out the dictionary to understand even a sentence, it becomes an academic exercise; a chore.

If he wants an audience and a market, he'd be better off writing in English and tailoring the character archetypes using Punjabi culture as an anchor to get his message across. I admire the effort and the desire to produce Punjabi language content, but as Jai Tegang said it takes a master writer in Punjabi to produce free-flowing, lyrical prose. Otherwise it just reads like a technical manual or a non-fiction article.

 

 

 

Canadian adult who immigrated from India under the age of ten:

there are quite a few gramatical errors, not sure if this is just the rough draft? Sounds very bland and simplistic, tbh.

I was a native speaker who migrated early and completely forgot it all. Re-learned it from scratch in later years. Developed a great deal of love and admiration for Gurbani's poetic value and grammar. The contemporary Punjabi works feel too dry and dull and appear as an attempt at "aglicizing", or almost mentally translating, the Punjabi style of writing, imho. if that makes sense?

I always found the non-religious gurmukhi literature very simplistic and difficult to engage my interest with, so i mostly stuck with Gurbani, steeks, sant-books.

I got confused by this first thinking I didn't write this in English, then realised these are comment by people to you. only thing I am uncertain about is this the Nina story ( in which case the fact its is simple makes sense, and yes it has not been checked or proof read as I wrote it as first draft from the top of my head) if it refers to Haul, then once again this person is correct re it being a first draft which I have yet to fully read back myself and yes it needs proof reading..however I would like to think Haul isn't that simplistic?? I accept there is a natural influence of English syntax sentence structure ..however this is part intentional and part natural given my background. It's a bit like Marmite, I have seem some native Punjabi readers like it. some hate it

5 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

There's a lot to unpack there! lol

Look, when it comes to online, most people are like voyeurs, they read and see it, but don't comment. It's like the Baba vaapus aa gaya piece you wrote, plenty of hits on that forum, very little comments. So your stuff is being read. I'm not the only one doing it. Just for your knowledge I came across your early stuff when I finally made an earnest decision to finally nail my Panjabi (or Gurmukhi to be more accurate) and was looking for stuff the read to develop it. It helped. 

I don't think the language will die like suggested by some above. Freshies are unlikely to invigorate it here because they almost invariably look down on vilaytis, plus as mentioned, they are more money focused than on preserving/nurturing a literary movement. However, some of their kids might in future, and that's who your main audience will probably be in the west.       

I don't think Sikhi is in danger either, at least not from the language issue. We live in interesting times Roop. With everything going on, I can't help but notice the undercurrents of a real revival in interest in Sikhi and Sikh ithihaas (as opposed to colonial era 'Sikhism')    I see a strong yearning by some diasporans to link with their written heritage and learn Gurmukhi. Texts that were inaccessible in my youth are now openly available (say through scribd or SIkhbookclub), even many puratan texts have recently been translated and published i.e. Bhangu's Panth Prakash, Sainapati's Sri Gursobha. There are movements that are revisiting old classics like Suraj Prakash in the west. Even brothers who used to be on this forum have gone on to translate hitherto forgotten works, People like Kam Pardesi and Tirath Nirmala.  

With English based writings on Sikhi, I think we are in an early stage. Sure we can read plenty about colonial era influenced 'Sikhism' but intelligent works on Sikhi are few and far between. Why we are so far behind might be explainable by this (if you haven't read it already do it urgently - it's a must read):

  

 

They are the products of their environment that doesn't value literacy unless it's a vehicle to employment and status. They have no intellectual curiosity. Regarding your point about all the disparaging stuff written about diasporan Sikhs in traditional Panjabi literature. Well, we could easily do the same - the amount of kartootaan I've seen from that quarter could easily be characterised, if someone wanted. But that would be a waste of time on tit for tat buckwaas. 

 

I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to get at. I was just saying that to target a younger audience, and those who are relatively new to the language, you need to simplify your work. It's one thing to try and compete with the traditional writers from back home, it's another to write for a new, emerging market/demographic.

 I get your point about not dumbing it down too much, but also, a reader might not want to learn a whole barrage of new words in one go. Or constantly have to look up words in a dictionary. Then it become laborious for them. I'm like you, when I learnt reading I too had a dictionary at hand. We have to factopr in the differences between readers who may not be like this. Make sense?   

 

You've come too far to give up! Like I said, people are like voyeurs, don't think that a lack of comments means lack of interest. 

 

 

You're absolutely right with your analysis in my opinion. In school, I was in a class of 3 (including me!) learning GCSE Panjabi, whilst Urdu classes were jam packed. Parents here don't prioritise it, and it's mainly Gurdwaras that actually teach it.  Going back to your first paragraph: Yes, a lot of people are going to get assimilated here. But some will make effort to try and preserve it, maybe encourage their kids to learn it, because their own parents never encouraged them to learn. That's when your stuff can a make a big difference. 

I think often when a thing is being lost, a movement springs up to counteract this. I don't seethe issue of loan words as a big one, because we've always had this in Panjab. I've always thought one of things a good writer does is resurrect some old interesting words and bring them back into use, maybe that will happen.  We've got quality dictionaries available now too. 

And like I alluded to earlier. I'm seeing things very different to you, I see a growing yearning for knowledge and even a slow shift in some elements in the diaspora towards a more intellectual approach to studying their Sikh heritage.  From my perspective we have young people who are intelligent enough to read Gurbani and use available resources to get a good understanding. 

 

 

Don't be so defeatist. When you're a pioneer (i.e. ahead of time), people might only really appreciate your stuff long after you've written it. It's a legacy.   

Guess I am being over sensitive. Its hard not to be when you have the older generation say one's writing is too western and alien to Punjabi and full of UK thinking and English Syntax etc...then you get the Brtish side saying we can't be arsed to learn Gurmukhi..

Makes it hard to know who I am aiming my fiction at and why am I bothering? Originally I just wanted to raise Punjabi's status to the same as the best in the world.

I'll try and not let it impact me and just quietly do my thing

I hear your positivity brother, but  really get the impression  you are a one man band...The ones from India don't get my style of writing or syntax and find my vocal too basic at times or too intellectual at the other extreme. Guess my fiction isn't about zameen mind life and how to make a quick buck and suppress your women.  They rather drink shrab or take drugs than read anything in their language. I get the impression from some of the points made by you that my vocab is too high for the western reader who do get my syntax. ( By the way in answer to your cognitive question I have long been told that my Anglized sentences make no sense to those in punjab and is why I am not taken seriously. My spelling is apparently reasonably  good but the syntax is laughable at best,  hard to understand at most). This and the fact many are not responding ( on my posts here and other places ) gives me the impression in reality no one in the west wants to learn Punjabi ( aside from you) especially to use it in practical terms. Which makes me think if I carry on writing I write for those in India ( in which case I too will have to write about the Pind etc) or I just stop and write normal English Literature for Gore..

Sorry feeling a bit depressed today, especially after Professor Opinderjeet Kaur's reponse from Wolves Uni. She says that Kids only interest in heritage is Religion which does not require Punjabi, Sikhism has a take up, as does Islam and Hinduism etc. So Sikh studies are thriving in English. Punjabi is not even asked for and at this rate the AQA would have closed the GCSE and A Level course as well if the Panjabi Board in the UK had not pressurised them. The take up stats for last year were the lowest in a decade.

So I think your words we are f****ed are already true.

Seriously thinking of writing in English . We need hard facts and stats from Sikeawareness members and others that they genuinely want to read Punjabi 

15 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

It needs to be done, otherwise we're f**ked. 

Hi

this is actually an answer to all the points you have made. In short I really really appreciate your feedback as no one else ( born in the west) has ever shared my stuff apart from you on Sikhawareness or shown an interest giving the older so called famous Punjabi writers I now know the excuse to say the language will die with them or only come across to the UK in the form of a new wave of immigrants ( the ones UK born insultingly call Freshies) but they don't even think that will happen they think the new generation will all go to Canada and it is only the type you highlighted ( money orientated) workers who will come over. In short Punjabi in UK will die within 15 years. If this is so on a different question we need to understand what that means for the Sikh Religion. I don't think the threat is as severe there as it does not require the knowledge of one language anyway and can be learnt in English. I suspect that Western Sikhi will go its own way compared to the one in Punjab and may be a more honest and purer version. I also think those who can't speak punjabi will focus more on Sikhi as their roots, and the those who are not religious or able  to speak Punjabi will simply be absorbed into being English and will lose all roots.

I agree with your points and accept them. 

I do also think you are correct about the freshies, they have nothing between their ears and I have seen the same to be honest and cruel amongst the so called famous punjabi writers who are only interested in standing up amongst their peers and reading out stale poetry to get applause. There are no intellectuals. I decided long ago to start a separate movement for British Born Punjabis in this respect but I need to link up to similar minded people so that is a separate thread.

I understand what you say about simplifying Punjabi but I then get caught up amongst two schools of thought. Those who just use English nouns for words they know no one in the UK understands or those who want to look up the correct word in the dictionary. I have seen both schools of thought and they both have their merits. However I have seen the ones in the latter laugh down the former as bad and fake Punjabi.

To not get slagged off ( one intellectual senior phoned me and told me off for using English words) I have gone with writing the way I have so far. I see it as an exercise to improve the punjabi of the reader and when I was taught english I was also taught to have a dictionary at hand. So it is a matter of view.

I will reapproach the Nina project after I have done Haul, or I will give up and start writing in English 

I have now joined Sikhawareness as you can see and started another thread. Let's see if you are right and I get responses on that. That will tell me if its only you and me or others are interested. Re the words etc I have made a few comments on your thread about Panjabi Vocabulary.

I got the following message on whattsapp this morning from a lady who is a senior professor for Sikh Studies in a UK Uni..I quote..." Great, but for any university / collage to start a course the demand for it has to be evidenced. Sorry to say, take up of Panjabi is very poor. Without this I can't even start any process"

I responded : " No. I get it, I am beginning to think punjabi can only survive in private lessons or at local school level "

What i will say is listening to her I have realised that I may be wasting my time creating Punjabi literature for British Sikhs ( or others) as they will only read English and can not be bothered or are not interested in Punjabi fiction poetry or using the language other than swearing or dancing at weddings.

On top of that the Punjab born Punjabis are day by day losing their knowledge of Punjabi words and replacing it entirely with Hindi , Urdi and English.

Won't be long before no one can read the Guru Granth Sahib unless it is a translated version or taught through a mediary who may have their own agenda, because really we should all be able to read it for ourselves as was the original intention of the Gurus.

So lets see if the Thread I started about Punjabi Literature gets anyone apart from you responding. If not, I may have to abandon the UK kids as possible readers and in order to be read write the same Pindu stuff for those in India or learn their syntax or just start writing in English...

Attempt to insert the PDF file  of the story, with footnotes, so this is what it would look like in print..see what you think..

Nina Ate Ilti Jinn.pdf

Sat Sri Akaal everyone

So I am completely new to Sikhawareness ( page) and only became aware of it due to Dalsingh’s postings, specifically because for years he has been putting links up to my works for years which I only really discovered fairly recently. Then I decided to try and respond to him and naturally I was asked to sign up, so I have.

I am a British born Sikh, whose real name is Rupinderpal Singh Dhillon, and at school Ioved reading fiction, to the point I did an English Literature GCSE and then A level.

I am of the generation that always wondered why there aren’t any positive Sikh Characters in English Literature so I embarked on a journey which started at the V&A exhibition of the 300th anniversary of the Sikh Khalsa and ended up being this unpaar in Punjabi ( meaning no punjabi lessons were ever taken) learnt the Painti Alphabet and then thought now what…and promptly attempted to write in Punjabi to mainly counteract the kind of fiction our parents generation wrote.

Why? Because in it all British born punjabis ( Sikh or otherwise) were portrayed in a negative light and by those who don’t know what it is like growing up with both cultures.

So 20 years later, here I am, an amateur Punjabi Fiction Writer.

So Why am I posting this?

Dalsingh has given me the impression there may well be others out there like me who have been raised here, can read Punjabi, but not relate to the Punjabi of Punjabi Fiction or those locals and experiences and need Literature to read that either reflects their lives and thoughts or touches on fields that traditional Punjabi Literature doesn’t. Such as Science fiction, Spy stories, etc etc.. I can do a post about that later.

The reason I have done this post is a kind of a challenge to those of you who can read Punjabi but maybe would like to write fiction and particularly in an imaginative way as i have heard punjabi students have never been taught to write like that or think like that…

So here is Photo I found on the net and I have written below it in Punjabi, my attempt at writing an imaginative description..Would love to see others who are up to the challenge sharing their attempts..

ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮੁਖੜਾ ਦੁੱਪਟੇ ਵਿੱਚੋਂ ਖਿੱਝ ਕੇ ਨਾਪਸੰਦ ਚੁੰਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨਾਲ਼ ਖੱਬੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਝਾਕਿਆ। ਦੁੱਪਟਾ ਕੱਚ ਵਾਲ਼ੇ ਮਣਕਾਵਾਂ ਨਾਲ਼ ਸਜਾਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਸੀ। ਕਦੀਮ ਅੱਖਾਂ ਉੱਪਰ ਓਨੇ ਪੁਰਾਣੇ ਭਰਵੱਟੇ ਇਕੱਠੇ ਹੋਏ, ਨਾਲੋਂ ਨਾਲ਼ ਨਾਸਾਂ ਫੈਲ ਗਈਆਂ। ਖੱਬੀ ਨਾਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੋਕਾ ਇੱਕ ਚੰਦ ਸੀ, ਜਿਸ ਤੋਂ ਇਲਾਵਾਂ ਖੱਬੇ ਕੰਨ ( ਜੋ ਦੁੱਪਟੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੁਕਿਆ ਸੀ) ਤੋਂ ਵਾਲ਼ੀ ਝਾਤੀ ਮਾਰ ਕੇ ਵੀ ਖੱਬੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਹੀ ਦੇਖਦੀ ਸੀ, ਜਿਵੇਂ ਉਸ ਨੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਦੇ ਮਾਲਕਣ ਨੂੰ ਸਹਾਰਾ ਦੇਣਾ ਸੀ ਜਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ਼ ਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਵੱਲ ਨਿਗ੍ਹਾ ਮਾਰ ਰਹੀ ਸੀ ਵਿਰੋਧ ਕਰਨਾ ਸੀ। ਉਂਝ ਮੁਖ ਇੱਕ ਛੁਹਾਰਾ ਕੀਤਾ ਖਜੂਰ ਵਰਗਾ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਦੇਖਣ ਵਾਲ਼ੇ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਸੀ। ਬੁੱਲ੍ਹਾਂ ਇੱਕ ਤੇਵਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਸ ਕੇ ਜੁੜੇ ਸਨ, ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਲ਼ੇ ਦੁਆਲ਼ੇ ਮਾਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਸੁੱਕੇ ਦਰਾੜਾਂ ਗੰਜੀਬਾਰ ਵਾਂਙ ਝਰੀਟਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾ ਦੀਆਂ। ਇੰਝ ਹੀ ਸਾਰੇ ਮੁਖੜੇ ‘ਤੇ ਝਰੀਟਾਂ ਸਨ, ਗੱਲ੍ਹਾਂ ‘ਤੇ, ਨੱਕ ‘ਤੇ ਅਤੇ ਮੱਥੇ ‘ਤੇ। ਹਰ ਝਰੀਟ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਬੀਤੀ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਹਾਣੀਆਂ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੀਆਂ ਸਨ। ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਝਰੀਟਾਂ ਨਾਲ਼ ਤਿੰਨ ਸ਼ਾਹੀਆਂ ਜਿਦ ਕਰ ਰਹੀਆਂ ਸੀ। ਉਂਝ ਇਹ ਪੁਰਾਣਾ ਮੁਖੜਾ ਇੱਕ ਦਮ ਕੁਲਵੰਤ ਜਾਪਦਾ ਸੀ, ਇੱਕ ਦਮ ਗਿਆਤਾ, ਭਾਵੇਂ ਇਲਮ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਹੀਂ, ਪਰ ਜ਼ਰੂਰ ਹੱਡ ਜੱਗ ਬੀਤੀ ਵਿੱਚ। ਅੱਗਲੀ ਪਲ ਵਿੱਚ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਹੋਠਾਂ ਉੱਤੇ ਮੁਸਕਾਨ ਨੱਚ ਸਕਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੀ ਦਾਦੀ ਜਾਂ ਨਾਨੀ ਲੱਗੇਗੀ। ਜਾਂ ਹੋਰ ਰੁਸ ਕੇ ਤਿਹਾਈ ਧਰਤ ਵਰਗਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਦਿਸਣਾ ਹੈ, ਹਰ ਲੀਕ ਇੱਕ ਖੁਣਸੀ ਡਾਟ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਡੈਣ ਦੇ ਨੈਣਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਦਿਸਦੀ ਹੋਵੇ। ਜਾਂ ਉਸ ਦੀ ਸ਼ਕਲ ਸਿਰਫ਼ ਇੱਕ ਮਾਯੂਸ ਬੁੱਢੀ ਦੀ ਹੈ। ਰੱਬ ਜਾਣੇ ਸੱਚ ਕੀ ਹੈ।

i'm no expert at all at Punjabi, and there may be errors, but I hope I have at least attempted something that depicts the photo in words. Certainly I will remain a student all my life...Be interesting to you your interpretations 

I don't know how strong other people feel about what I am going to say

1) Where a word already exists in the punjabi dictionary we should learn it and get into habit of using it

2) however where we need NEW words that are business, science or technological I am against always adapting the from English but also super against them being sanskrit based words no normal punjabi can use.

3) Where we we need to adopt words they don't always have to be from English. Not sure how you feel about it but I find the way chips ( UK meaning) or stawberries are said in Punjabi it sounds wrong and its embarrassing when UK kids call the Punjabis freshies for doing it. Pizza is a bag bear as punjabis say it with the zz but that doesn't matter as its such a common word it has become the punjabi word..I feel there are other languages that have similar rhythm to punjabi that can be adopted from if necessary. For Example Spanish. In the case of Chips I prefer to say Freet ( literal punjabi way of saying the French Frite ) or Fragula for Stawberries from Italian and I use these in my writings. What is the view of others?

4) Just coin new words, eg for Aquarium in Pakistan they say MuchiGhar, but I have used ਜਲਪਿੰਜਰ in my stories used which seems popular amongst my readers anyway.

Anyhow I think I'll enjoy listing actual words from Punjabi dictionaries here as well as trying my ideas for point 2 above