SikhWannaBe

Amrik Sehan,

Langar should be eaten on the floor...being humble or not being humble its not a issue here. Its about principles(maryada) which is going on from Guru's time.

Let me ask you this. If Guru can sit on the floor and eat langar then why can't his sikhs?

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I spent half my langar eating life sitting at a table and the other half sitting on the floor. I felt no difference in my 'humbleness'. But I do remember one difference, that being that we sat in the langar hall alot longer when we sat at tables. We talked to the congregation more and generally socialized. In temples where I sat on the floor there seems to be one thing on everones mind, 'I have got to get out of here'.

And frankly, Guru Nanak Ji didn't have the privilege of being able to sit on a modern toilet. I suggest that if you want to really live the humble life of Guru Nanak Ji, maybe you should shun that toilet in your house and go do your business outside. I hate rituals!

As far as the original post, I think it is fantastic and also shows that Guru Nanak Ji was clearly thinking about feeding all humanity not just sikhs. Therefore, a movement towards eradication of humans starving ought to be a priority for all Sikhs

So what about all the kids that are not conceived out of love but another reason? Where does that place them? Adoption is definately the best way to spread love, having your own biological child can only be described as selfish where one knows that there are many children in need of your parenting services.

Most of the reasons I believe people have children are selfish. They either do it involuntarily to spread their genes, or purposefully to live vicariously through their young and finally because they are too ignorant to understand how to use contraceptives. The third world has an added example of having families to facilitate in production and family survival.

It is very rarely, that I have met parents that are bringing children into the world to create a person free of bias and filled with love for humanity. Point being adoption rules.

You only have intercourse with your wife if man and husband if a woman. Intercourse with anyone else is bajjar kurehit. Which can be called excommunication automatically.

So what does that make Sikh people who are gay? They're not welcome to participate in Sikhism? I guess that isn't much different from all the other faiths. Did the 'holy book' say this specifically or is this someone's interpretation of what is written. If someone has the quotes to match Khalsa Fauj's post that would be great.

Personally, I am hoping that it can be interpreted to include all unions.

I am not sure which posts were chit chat types but I will try to make sure mine are more robotic in nature from now on.

Amrik's post raises some interesting points, what are the Sikh positions on other aspects of sex or procreation specifically?

1. Adoption

2. New Reproductive and Genetic Technologies

3. Contraceptive use

4. Gay sex or marriage (which was declared legal by the SCC in Canada, today)

5. Eugenics

I'm sure there are many others but lets see if someone clarify those first, Thanks in advance.

What is there to be confused about?

Cheating is a moral wrong no doubt about it.

But cheating does not go against nature since we were clearly created this way and have created biological mechanism to address it.

I am suggesting the purpose for males to engage with the opposite sex is not premised on enjoyment but rather the need to pass on their genes as widely as possible.

Manogamous relationships clearly go against the desire to pass on your genes to many, therefore you will have to battle your biological urges daily or even by the minute if you look at characters like 'Beast'.(No offence intended)

Females don't have the same problems since as long as they are impregnated they will pass on their genes. There is no guarantee for males that once they deposit sperm, the child born to that female is actually his or another male's child. Therefore it requires a different approach, that being impregnate many.

Of course today cheaters are primarily concerned with pleasure rather than gene delivery but at least we should not blame them for the urge. We should blame them for not being able to control it.

And while we're at 'it', where is the line of cheating really drawn today? Is it at sexual activity or as soon as you are emotionally engaged with someone or somewhere inbetween? Just wondering what your thoughts are on that. From reading the earlier posts it appears that Sikhism draws the line quite early at 'looking at another'. I would have to agree that it is much earlier than physical contact and but probably not at looking either. I'd say the point where one wants to spend time with another at the detriment of your partner. Spending time could be talking, emailing etc.

Whoa nelly, it doesn't take much to get you fired up Ms. V.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that extra-marital relations is a good idea, just that manogamy may not be natural.

As far as, hurting your partner, that would only happen if they discovered your infidelity or if you passed on an STD. Of course the cheater would have to suffer with his/her own demons but I think it would be a further sin to baggage your partner with the problem. You messed up deal with it yourself.

'Goodness Gracious Me' was a British Indian Tv show similar to 'In Living Colour' but focussed on British Indian habits. Some great episodes you should check it out.

I believe one of the creators of 'Goodness Gracious Me' has made a new show now called the 'Kumars at number 44', I haven't seen it yet but hear it is pretty good.

I didn't get the swelling bit, or maybe I don't want to get it?!

Oh and maybe you should tell your friend 'Geezus' about the site, I'd love to hear his comments.

This has got to be one of the funniest threads I've ever read on the net. It sounds like a Goodness, Gracious Me skit.

Anyhow, some food for thought.

Love has 14 different meanings to the Greeks, the problem with trying to define is that it takes so many forms. eg. love of a child, parent, spouse, lover, sibling, etc.

As far as the cheating bit think about this: (please close your eyes if your under 35)

I was reading about the characteristics of sperm. Reseachers have found that male sperm actually carries various forms of sperm. There not all heading for the egg like in those look who's talking flicks. Only about 30 percent are headed to the egg. The remainder are classed as fighting sperm. What are they fighting your wondering? They are fighting the other sperm. Now your thinking why would your own sperm fight with each other? Wrong they are to fight another man's sperm, meaning we have created a biogical response to the issue of a woman having multiple sexual partners! The observations are profound, but suggest that manogamy is a human construct and therefore something that has to be worked on daily as suggested by the Sikh text.

Another interesting point of note is that a woman was found to actually be more likely to become pregnant from an encounter with her lover than her regular mate. I don't remember the reasoning for this but I sure you could google this stuff.

Oops gotta a go the other half is coming.

How much does he charge for this ghost busting service? I hope the rates are competative, if not I can probably do it cheap!

it's true that there is a very big difference between what's goin on in the UK compared to over here. and i appreciate the differences that you're trying to make. everyone makes a difference, even when they think that they aren't. but it's possible to make differences without letting go of your religion. at the same time, the situation over here in toronto isn't as bad as you think. granted that we aren't at the same level as the brits, but we aren't exactly a new frontier anymore. lol...

Yes, this is true but if you consider the opportunites for new Sikh immigrants in Canada, or any immigrants for that matter, the opportunities are quite grim. eg. Foriegn trained professionals are forced into manual labour positions until professional associations decide to recognize their credentials. I may have exagerated the conditions slightly but I believe the difference is still night and day when compared to the U.K.

haha... the point of the 5 Ks... i doubt whether any one would be able to tell you what the point of the 5 Ks is with absolute certainty. they do show what your faith may be. but in some cases, they don't even do as much, since not everyone who has chosen to adopt the "Sikh look" as drawrof has so kindly put it has the personality to match it. but tha's another topic.

I should have said one of the purposes of the 5Ks was to provide a distinct physical appearance.

as for standing out for one's actions rather than appearance, i hope that's what everyone does. but why are you attempting to make the choice for other Sikhs? if there are people out there that truly want to carry the 5 Ks, then they should be allowed to do so, right? similarly, there are people out there that don't wish to commit to the 5 Ks. like i said before, there's a choice. and people are entitled to make whichever one they wish to do so.

I am not an abolitionist, I was just making the point that we have an unnecessary divide between those that are Khalsa sikhs and those that are not. Yes, the Khalsa stands for something distinct but I don't believe it is something superior, it is just distinct. I want to see a more cohesive spirit as it once was.

ur comment about wishing to have time to educate yourself on the 5 Ks doesn't really sit well with me. granted that everyone has time contstraints, the point is to make your faith a priority and make time for it instead of waiting for the time to magically appear somehow. but if you can't do that much at this point, there's nothing wrong about that either. everyone has their own limitations. and there's no real deadline for you to run against to educate yourself on Sikhi. do it on ur own pace.

Sukhi, I think I could devote my whole life to trying to understand Sikhi and still not come up with a conclusion. I realize that I would grow tremendously in the process but that would only be personal growth. I am most motivated and driven towards community growth and I choose to focus my spare time in that direction at this time but I expect that I will learn oodles about Sikhi in the process.

that's a very general definition of what a Sikh is. but as long as we're clear on what you're definition of Sikh is, it becomes much easier to discuss the topic.

and according to your own definition, i think it's safe to say that this makes a very large part of the world Sikh. so what's the difference than between being a Sikh and just a regular human being?

I agree that my definition is broad but I do not agree that it captures alot of people. Maybe I have had bad experiences in my life but my interactions have resulted in my perception of the majority of the population selfish and rarely perform good actions.

I question why you would need a further distinction other? Guru Nanak as far as I now was a man that wanted to see an inclusive society, not one divided along arbitrary lines such as appearance. But once again that is just my take.

And Sukhi_V, we need you sharp mind in the organization some of us want to create, please avail us your services. I am sure that we can hammer out a constitution that you and others will applaud.

Charn Gill

Wow, 24hrs and we have grown 400%, I hope we can keep that up.

Drawrof - I will PM you after my last exam on Dec. 13th to obtain that list. Thanks in advance.

ThinkingOne - could you offer more details of the work you are describing, sounds like it may be helpful to hear as a source of inspiration or possibly more.

Infernal Monk - a constitution or charter sounds like the right starting point. I will try and create one in a study break and we can debate it online. But of course someone else is welcome to create a draft if they are so inclined.

I feel empowered already from hearing your positive feedback.

Charn

My comments below are the climax of another thread re: whether the 5Ks are stunting the growth of Sikhism?

Dear Drawrof,

I thank you for the appreciation and I in turn appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. Your suggestions are great and as I stated earlier I try to live by a similar sentiment.

But what I think we need now, is a collective movement towards the ideals that you and Sikhism encourages.

Somebody needs to co-ordinate Sikhs both visible and non-visible to work together on identifying goals for our community members on a personal, community and global level.

I am suggesting a new forum whether it is this website, an organization or another entity where Sikhs can come together for the sole purpose of discussing the advancement of our faith and culture.

To be clear I am not talking about changing our faith in anyway but strictly to identify areas that may need attention and then suggest possible solutions.

As I stated earlier, I am going to be contacting alot of the Sikh community in Toronto regarding the Legal Scholarship I want to create. It seems like a good idea to collect the information of contributors so that we can start to create a list of Sikhs that could be used to advance other issues.

If we did this on a global scale and created a newsletter for example it could become a very powerful medium to influence our community for the positive.

There are other faiths in our communities that may not share the same ideals as ours but are more effective at mobilizing their community. We can mimic their success to our advantage. I often use the Jewish community as an example since I am constantly amazed at their level of organization. For example, do you know that there is a program they created that allows any Jewish child born in Canada to visit Israel for free. Our community is far from creating a program like that but if we don't begin thinking about it, we will never get there.

So what I am asking first is do you want to participate? If you think the idea is stupid then say that too. But realize that I will be doing this in my community regardless of whether anyone else wants to help or not, but any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

And again I do not intend to touch any issues regarding our faith but merely want to address areas of concern for our community.(eg. lack of Sikh lawyers in Toronto) and then suggest solutions.

The first step would be data collection, I will start this in Toronto (any loacl help is welcome), but if someone has a list or wants to create a list of Sikhs in other communities that would be great.

This sounds really exciting to me and hope others share my sentiments.

Charn Gill

Dear Drawrof,

I thank you for the appreciation and I in turn appreciate what you are trying to accomplish. Your suggestions are great and as I stated earlier I try to live by a similar sentiment.

But what I think we need now, is a collective movement towards the ideals that you and Sikhism encourages.

Somebody needs to co-ordinate Sikhs both visible and non-visible to work together on identifying goals for our community members on a personal, community and global level.

I am suggesting a new forum whether it is this website, an organization or another entity where Sikhs can come together for the sole purpose of discussing the advancement of our faith and culture.

To be clear I am not talking about changing our faith in anyway but strictly to identify areas that may need attention and then suggest possible solutions.

As I stated earlier, I am going to be contacting alot of the Sikh community in Toronto regarding the Legal Scholarship I want to create. It seems like a good idea to collect the information of contributors so that we can start to create a list of Sikhs that could be used to advance other issues.

If we did this on a global scale and created a newsletter for example it could become a very powerful medium to influence our community for the positive.

There are other faiths in our communities that may not share the same ideals as ours but are more effective at mobilizing their community. We can mimic their success to our advantage. I often use the Jewish community as an example since I am constantly amazed at their level of organization. For example, do you know that there is a program they created that allows any Jewish child born in Canada to visit Israel for free. Our community is far from creating a program like that but if we don't begin thinking about it, we will never get there.

My comments sound like they have out grown this thread so I will repost what I just said in a new post asking for participants and support.

Infernal Monk

That quote captures what I have been trying to convey but I probably wasn't as effective or concise.

You didn't provide your thoughts on the quote, I am curious?

Charn

Charn Gill, i fail to see how exactly it is you believe that the 5 Ks detract from a person's social standing. i have friends that are extremely intelligent with all 5 Ks that are prominent professionals.

I don't recall speaking specifically to social standing or intelligence, I was speaking about opportunities to earn. I was born in the U.K. and go back rather often, while in the U.K. I feel a sense of freedom by observing so many visibly Sikh individuals in varying professions. Unfortunately, In Toronto my experience is very different. It is very rare to see visibly Sikh individuals in anything other than low paying positions. Toronto is many years behind British cities as far as integration of Sikhs. And as I feel the pressure today, the Sikhs in the U.K. from generations before us also felt the pressure to cut their hair to integrate. It is their sacrifice, along with those that chose to keep the 5Ks that have improved things for the current generation of Sikhs. I only want to make things better(easier) for the next generation.

if you look for negativity, tha's all ur gonna get.

Trust me I am not looking for negativity, I am a very positive person but also a realist.

i'm not gonna deny that some people get very self-conscious about their appearance. and i'm certainly not going to deny that discrimination does exist in the workplace.

but i will deny your claim that you need to drop your religious beliefs to get anywhere professionally.

I am not saying to drop them but rather be able to mask them. Why should I have an outward indicator of my faith. Yes, I understand that this was exactly the point of the 5Ks but today seeing a Khalsa Sikh is no quarantee that he can and will understand his/her calling. Therefore, why not stand out by your actions rather than your appearance. I think this achieves the same goal.

as for your comment about not being ready to take on the commitment of the 5 Ks... i don't think you should do that even if you felt financially secure without actually understanding what they're about. no one is telling you that you must immediately take amrit to be a Sikh. it has been said in a variety of posts that being a Sikh doesn't necessarily mean you have to a part of the Khalsa.

there is a choice.

I realize this and when I say I would like to participate I mean from an educational perspective. I don't think that I can wake up tomorrow and start participating in the 5Ks. I mean I wish I had the time to set aside all else in my life and learn all there is to learn about Sikhi, which will include the 5Ks and many other aspects. I don't claim to know anything other than a very periferal view.

i don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth. if i thought this topic was a waste of time, i wouldn't come here and share my thoughts. i apologize if that's the impression you got from my "deja vu" comment. i simply meant that things are just being repeated over and over again.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, I just appreciate how long it takes to post like this while also studying. Please don't think I haven't learned anything.

to end this post, i would like to pose a question to you now, Charn. what makes a Sikh in your opinion?

I think a Sikh was best described by Dynamic_Banda when he said all you have to do is Naam, whether by recitation, meditation or action. My answer is very short and I don't think it needs to be any more complicated. I don't think I need to participate in the 5Ks or any other ritual as long as my mind is pure. I do believe I must be on a constant charge to better myself and humanity.

For me, I can say that I rarely recite or meditate but I look at all actions I take daily, including things that are as minuscule as typing this post. I try to leave things in a better way than I found them and offer assistance to whoever needs or wants it. To leave the planet better than we found it is the purpose of my whole existence. I entered law school after selling a profitable business. If all I sought was material possessions I could have been a multi-millionaire by now. I believe law can be used to get very wealthy but it can also be used for the greater good. In that vain I joined the newly created Sikh Law Students Association at Osgoode Hall Law School and I have started an initiative to try and create a scholarship for future Sikhs that want to enter law. It is through trying to create this scholarship that the fragmentation of the Sikh community in Toronto has become most apparent. My colleague is the President of the Jewish Law Students Association, which is also raising funds to combat anti-semitism, he was able to raise $13,000 through an afternoon of phone calls. I haven't gotten a dime yet, and expect it to take me months to even get close to that amount. I would like to see our community grow spiritually as well as economically since I believe it would be a sin for us to use the money for anything other than the betterment of all.

Sorry I strayed a little but my point is that I try to lead an honest life and try to help my fellow man, which includes Sikhs.

Infernal Monk

Thank you for sharing your personal experience but I was not referring to protecting my children from discrimination. I expect the colour of their skin will warrant discrimination regardless of the 5Ks. What I was trying to protect them from is having to live in poverty or a lower standard of living than they deserve. As a lawyer to be, I am most aware of the hiring practices of this field and can tell you there are no visibly Sikh lawyers in the higher paying legal positions in Toronto. I accept that there may be a couple that I haven't come across but I doubt it. Why should I have to take a lower paying position simply because I choose to participate in the 5Ks and consequently why should my children live a lower standard of living. This is what I am talking about when I say I have to provide for my children first.

It is only after Sikhs infiltrate these elite communities will we be able to shatter ignorant stereotypes that keep us down at the moment. If I work at one of these firms and consequently their persepective changes towards Sikhs it will open the door to visibly Sikh applicants in the future.

I think many before you and I have done just that in other fields and we owe them alot for sacrificing their beliefs for the betterment of our whole community.

Unfortuntely, the Sikhs that have infiltrated the upper echelon rarely look back at where they came from, I believe this is a result of a faith that did not support them on the path they chose.

And please before you or someone says that I am materialistic, please realize that philanthropy is not possible without money.

As far as your request that I try to understand more about the 5Ks before calling for change...I believe there is nothing you can say that can warrant my not being able to afford the lifestyle I want for my kids. I am personally very eager to participate in the 5Ks because I think it will be a humbling experience that can only help my personal growth but I cannot afford to do it at this time.

As far as insults, I take them personally since I am writing personally. I have opened up the doors of my life and I am not going to tolerate someone passing judgment on it or my attitude.

Sukhi_V

I apologize if you feel I am wasting your time, I have read all of the posts at length and I stated from the very beginning that I respect those that want to participate in the 5Ks, my question was not really about the validity of the 5Ks but really to address the reality of many like myself that want to participate in the 5Ks but feel they cannot at this time. I think this group is very large and therefore affecting the growth of Sikhism. I hear your point that Sikhism is not concerned with growth. So I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. But I wish there was a way for us to co-exist and work on some of the points that both sides agree upon.

Charn Gill

I've noticed that you ignored my comments about kesh/dastaar. That's mostly what it's about, right?

There are a lot of scholars with no faith in the Guru who will say such things, there are others who will say the opposite and actually be able to back up their statements. The problem doesn't seem to be the way Sikhe is setup, but the way your attitude is setup.

Well if you wanted my attention you've got it. I have criticized all 5Ks in an earlier post, I don't think they are of any use to a person in the world 'today', I recognize their metaphoric value but that isn't going to avoid the discrimination that plagues our world today. I can definately handle the sacrifice but why should my children have to pay the price of my faith's stubborness. I have to provide for them first and think about my personal enlightenment second. I was only hoping that my faith could appreciate the difficulties facing people outside India.

I will ignore your point about my attitude this time but next time you want to insult me I suggest you shed your computer identity and say who you are. My name is written numerous times in these posts since I have nothing to hide or no-one to fear. I didn't come here to upset you but merely learn from you and others. And I am happy to say that I have learned alot but if my presence is that upsetting to you, no problem I can leave you in your ignorant bliss.

Charn Gill

All you got to do is Naam, be it through recitation, meditation or good action according to what you understand to be truth at this moment in time according to the budhi maharaj has graced you with and learning to increase that budhi to better understand your truth and hence develope it.

You're all full of contradictions, simply parsing the quote does not answer the questions raised by the existence of a book about the divided sikh nation nor the concern to unite it by the Professor who reviewed it.

These are real concerns, not addressed by anyone here.

The Singh Sabha movement can also be cited as a desire to see Sikhism flourish. I may not agree with how they did it but they evince the desire to grow and yes it is definately a qualitative growth but still growth, which implies recruitment or retention.

And if you read back through the pages of posts it is not I the newbie that knows nothing about Sikhism that has offended its pillars but rather those that think they know more. Eg. making fun of another religion etc.

Charn

Since I have no credibility maybe you can respond to the scholars below, for the record 'commander', none of us are experts meaning you have no credibililty either.

I endorse Sr. B.S. Mahal’s views expressed in his article ‘Sikhs : A Nation Divided’ (S.R. May 1995) that :

“The current definition of Who is a Sikh? appears inadequate, too restrictive and perhaps outmoded. The writer feels that, in the name of communal peace and growth, consideration should be given to the idea of extending the term ‘Sehajdhari’, or some other terms, to embody the Monais within the Sikh fold.â€

This is possible only if the term ‘Khalsa’ were to be interpreted in the light of the Hukumnamas issued by the Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh administered Khande-da-Amrit, replacing Charan Pahul, on the Baisakhi day in the year 1699. I quote below from Prof. Ganda Singh’s book Hukumnamas :

* Guru Hargobind’s Hukumnama : Purab di Sangat Guru da Khalsa hoe. (P. 66.)

* Guru Tegh Bahadur’s Hukumnama : Patna di Sangat Sri Guru Jida Khalsa hai. (P. 76).

* Guru Gobind Singh’s Hukumnama dated 12th march, 1699 - prior to Baisakhi day : Sarbat Sangat Machhiware ki Guru rakhega. Sangat mera Khalsa hai. (P. 153.)

This historical evidence undoubtedly means that the term ‘Khalsa’ included the whole Sikh Sangat (Amritdharis as well as Sehajdharis). Why should they be excluded now?

Bhai Kahan Singh in his book ‘Sikh Ceremonies’ referring to the Sikh community as a whole, writes :

“The general body of the Sikh community is divided into two classes. The Sahajdhari or Civilian Sikhs and Keshdhari Singhs or the warrior Sikhs.â€

In this background I make an earnest appeal to all the Sikh scholars, theologians, leaders and, especially, the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee to embrace our Sehajdhari Sikh brethren and bring them into the fold of the broad-based Khalsa Sikh Sangat as commanded by our Gurus in their Hukumnamas. They must form an integral part of the mainstream of the Sikh community.

In fact, the answer to ‘Who is a Sikh?" is exquisitely and meticulously laid in the following Shabad by Guru RamDas Ji :

Gur-Satgu(u) ka jo Sikh akhaye

so bhalke uth Har Naam Dhiyave

Udam kare bhalke parbhati

Isnan kare Amritsar Nhavey.

(S.G.G.S. 305)

Similarly, ‘Who is a Khalsa?’ is defined by Guru Gobind Singh

Jagat jot jappey nis-basur, ek bina man naik na aney (33 Swayyas)

The emphasis on the basic and fundamental mandate : Hari Naam dhiyaway andJagat jot jappey must be noted.

Prof. HARMINDAR SINGH

46 Sudbury Court, Harrow

Middlesex HA1 3TD

London (UK)

I don't have much time today to respond so I apologize for shortness of answers I mean no harm.

1. I stated very early that I have no credibility, it is others that suggested there are no experts here and therefore I should feel free to speak.

2. Yes, I made an assumption about 'Sukhi' but like any good writer I acknowledged it before someone could call me on it, unlike others that made assumptions about me.

3. The fact that you keep the reasons for your non-participation in the 5Ks to yourself is exactly the type of answers I was looking for. I am not asking you to out yourself but realize that if there is anything in your reasons that could apply to others it maybe helpful to hear it.

4. An assumption was made that I believe my parents can teach me everything. I didn't say anything of the sought, in fact my parents no very little about the faith. What I was trying to get at is that there are countless millions of people that live there daily lives in an honest way but have never been influenced by Sikhism. I believe they are also Sikhs even if they don't know it.

5. I have heard some posters tell me that I am Sikh, while others continue to try and strip me of my faith. You need to take long hard look at your actions, what purpose do they serve? If it is the protection of your faith what have I done to threaten it? My only intention is to strengthen it.

6. Yes, I am the first to say I know very little about Sikhi but does that make my comments any less valid? No one has addressed some of the others that have agreed with my comments. I guess they are too ignorant to be answered also.

7. On the topic of my scholars with no names, I am sorry that I don't have time right now to dig up the stuff I have read in the past but I don't lie and have nothing to benefit from lying. The retention rate for Judaism is also on the decline, Jewish scholars recognize it and are trying to address it. Heck they are the chosen people and their numbers are declining what does that say for Sikhs and any other relatively new faith.

8. I asked in one of my posts what happened to the process for people like me that wanted to take Amrit but didn't want to keep the 5Ks? Why is nobody addressing that, was I mistaken? If there was such a process who took it away and who gave them the right to take it away? Did a new Guru show up when I wasn't looking. It is these people that need to be banished from calling themselves Sikh.

9. I remember when I was a kid my mom used to take me to Wednesfield Gurdwara. There was a white brit that used to come in regularily, I often asked my mom why he was here and she would point to a sign that said all are welcome. I loved that sign and despise those that have put up the new sign on the entire faith that says 'enter only when you submit to the 5Ks'.

10. I am a member of student govt at my law school, the faculty and administration include us in every committee whether it is finance, policy, HR etc. but notably we are on the admissions committee. This year I will be reviewing applications to decide who may enter the law school. The faculty and administration are the first to recognize the value of our input. Most bodies welcome input from all participants, it is only dictators that want no input.

11. Even if all of my recommendations are not welcome, we are not even able to move forward on those that we agree on since we have no one listening to us.

Charn

Thank you for your insight but you raise a few more questions.

1. What is a shabad? I know it is words spoken in a rythmic tone but what is its purpose? Is it to provide words to meditate to?

2. If you or anyone else doesn't know the writer of the shabad, why does he receive status that allows him to comment on the thoughts of Guru Gobind?

3. Can I write a shabad? If so will people listen to what I believe Guru Gobind might have been saying?

4. Let me take the words as if they were from Guru Gobind, even then they only speak of the discomfort one might face for being without Rehit. I can completely understand why one would choose the path to be chosen but if I feel no discomfort in my path aren't I entitled to choose, as you said?

5. As you said, one must choose the time to except the gift, until then am I barred from participation in the Sikh community. I know the theoretical answer is 'of course not' but practically speaking what is the liklihood of a person like myself being permitted to speak to a congregation? What level of respect does a person like myself have in a temple today? I have heard there was a process of taking Amrit without the 5Ks, what happened to that?

6. I am Sikh and nobody can take that away from me, I will be Sikh as long as I live an honest existence. A more 'godly' Sikh can never take that away from me and is foolish for trying.

we don't have to sell you on anything. this is a place where we come to exchange ideas.

you have great ideas. and i enjoyed reading them. but you don't seem to be open to others' ideas.

I'm still here I don't now whether that will please or not but I'm here.

O.K. don't sell me anything, but then don't regurgitate what others have instilled in you either, rather say what you think, not what ought to be said.

My thoughts are not profound by any means, they are a result of growing up in poverty and sikhism. Sikhism was the shining light that fueled me but has long ago burnt out leaving me scrambling for sustinance elsewhere. What is most upsetting is that Sikhism does have the answers to my problems but I am not entitled to access them since I don't want to fit into a 300 year old mold. My life experiences have probably been duplicated countless times in other Sikh youth but it all goes to waste since there is really nobody listening to our youth.

I am not saying that you or others are not being honest in your answers, rather that they are not personal, they are responses that I can probably get from any temple. I was hoping to discuss the tensions talked of by 'Gupy'. But nobody wants to go there.

Yes you answered my question but to be frank the honest answer you didn't say was you don't know either. But to say that would question your entire existence (I am assuming that you are all that I refuse to become).

I don't need to see the numbers, ask any Sikh scholar (not those on this forum) and they will tell you that the numbers are declining in comparison to the birth rate. It is obvious, but you and others don't want to even accept that point. It is only after you accept this point that you will be able to honestly assess why the numbers are declining. It may have nothing to do with the 5Ks, that is only my hypothesis.

But I will not tolerate someone saying that I am ignorant because I am immature in my experience with your path to sikhism. Someone earlier described me as a person who failed his 12th grade exams and is trying to obtain his PHD. Well you know what, it can be done. I was a high school drop out, I left school at 15. I then re-entered after a long absence straight into Law school. In Canada, Law school is your 2nd degree not first as in the U.K. I am constantly debating PHD and Masters students with them often seeking advice on problems from me. My point is not to toot my own horn but to make you and others realize that there are alot of intelligent people sitting on the sidelines waiting for an invitation to sikhism rather than being shown the exit.

My life has been threatened in the past but not by armed thugs but granthis that don't want Sikhism to change. Why don't these few want it to change? because it is a cash cow.

Our youth is brilliantly talented in anything they wish to do but are not permitted to advise on how to shape the future of Sikhism. This is a great failure and will ultimately spell the demise of Sikhism outside India.

So Sukhi and others say what is at the tip of your tongue when you read my post not what you think you should say. Lets break out of our shells and go a little deeper. I shed mine a long time ago.

Bye, for now

I guess I was typing while the Commander was speaking.

So to respond, if I am the flavour of the month, shame on you for not realizing the gravity of the problem before you. You mean you know all that I am saying and you continue to ignore people like me, that really just want to be included. What is wrong with you, I don't judge you for taking your path.

And am I Sikh? you better believe it. I don't need a book or gurus to guide me in the path of Sikhism I have been lucky to have parents that have taught me to have a conscience and to be aware of my surroundings. You on the other hand have had a constant reminder of pain and suffering but turn your back on it. Are you Sikh?

there is no recruitment perspective in Sikhi. lol... if anything, most people will tell you that one of many reasons that people flock to Sikhi is because we don't preach anything and we don't wanna force our views on anyone. well, most of us don't but then you get other people with slightly different ideas.

Firstly, where are the flocks? Somebody on the site must have some statistics about membership and growth. But last time I checked I don't remember a subway car full of Sikhs.

How can you say that Sikhism is not concerned with recruitment? How did you hear about it? Was it some divine intervention or was it simply by being born into the faith? Either way there is in introduction of sorts or recruitment. If there was no recruitment parents would be encouraged to allow their children to explore other faiths and then if they choose to, they can become Sikh. I don't know about you but for the most part my parents have told me I am Sikh from the moment I could understand their words. We are at the very least concerned with retention if not recruitment.

As stated earlier, Sikhism is concerned with trying to heal all humanity and therefore must reach as much of humanity as it can. This is implicitly stating that we must recruit.

Now since I have established for myself there is a need to recruit, the question turns back to my original one being, do the 5Ks stunt the growth of Sikhism?

As I stated earlier I believe it does, but I too have no statistics.

So how do we conduct a survey of Sikhs? Is that even possible? Are we that organized yet? Do we have a Vatican type office at Amritsar that communicates to all of the world's Sikhs. If there is they never got to me!

I thank all that have commented but none have really answered the question and maybe that is because we have no statistics.

I have a hunch that even if I had statistics that stated the faith were dying, the powers that be wouldn't care to change anything anyway.

Unfortuntely, this post has got me thinking it maybe my time to say bye bye to the forum since nothing really seems that different from my encounters with other faith. Any changes are viewed as bad or unnecessary and therefore one must adopt rules and rituals established for a different context. I realize that no-one can speak for Guru Nanak but I believe he would be disappointed in our faiths inability to grow. It is kind of nice to think if our faith as a dying jedi knight type thing but wouldn't it be even better to see its influence effect change all over the world.

I am definately an optimist but most of you that have responded are pessimistic. I don't mean that in a negative way but you believe nothing can influence gov't etc. This is not true, I have worked with people that write gov't policies, they are people just like you and me. The difference being that they are influenced by other faiths not Sikhism. E.g The U.S. is currently motivated by the those that appose abortion and gay rights etc.

When will the Sikh mandate ever make it to the forefront if we do not encourage membership. We are a very wealthy body that is relatively powerless in the world today.

We have negative stigma attached to our existence; e.g. today's Toronto Papers carry pictures of a Sikh man wearing a turban. Without me telling you the story do you think it is a positive or negative story for Sikhs. Well, unfortunately it is a picture of an accomplice in the Air India bombing.

When will we control media outlets outside of India? This is a must for any cause in today's world. Without more membership and good guidance from the organizers of our faith we will be left wallowing in our factory jobs, or farming the land in India. (I am speaking about the majority of Sikhs not the professional minority)

Lets create a plan for world domination with the goal being peace on earth. I know the last sentence may have lost you all but I am not joking.

If your path can create what I am looking for sign me up but you haven't sold me on anything yet. And please don't say you don't need to sell me on anything, that is just too predictable.

Charn Gill

Sikhi has been growing just fine since it was first founded by Guru Nanak Dev Sahib. and the addition of the 5 Ks haven't really hurt it in my opinion.

Do you have some statistics to back up your claim, I don't doubt your perception but I find it very hard to believe that the retention rate between generations is positive considering my observations in my own community.

Gupy said something in reply to ur first post that i don't think u read properly. maybe u should re-read it. he/she said that a Sikh isn't necessarily the same thing as Khalsa. personally speaking, i think it's an interesting idea and i'm still debating where i stand with it. but i think it's definitely something u should look into.

I did read itand that is part of where I derived the hierarchy I described in an earlier post. What concerns me is the existence of different levels of devotion based soley on action rather than spiritual accomplishment.

you seem to view Guru Nanak Dev Sahib as some sort of social revolutionary figure who made a whole lotta changes in the way society does things. and that is true. but what is also true is that Guru Nanak Dev Sahib was making those changes out of spiritual interests. spirituality, God, love, humility, modesty among a multitude of other virtues were far more important to him than mere social change. and the social change that he brought was due to these underlying themes.

Yes I do believe, Guru Nanak was a revolutionary; e.g. he attempted to eliminate the caste system. That brings another point when did Sikhs start abondoning the sole use of Singh and Kaur? Isn't pointless to be named Charn Singh Gill as I am. I have often considered eliminating Singh entirely from my name since it serves no purpose alongside Gill. You probably wondering why I would not just eliminate Gill, well once again I am concerned for most with practicality, names are to identify an individual, having the same name has thousands of others doesn't work well in today's world. Education about the ignorance of the caste system would be better served today. That was abit of an off-topic rant, sorry.

u suggest some very interesting and useful things that we should think about to make Sikhi more available to the public such as reading Gurbani in English in the Gurudwara. this is possible, and plausible. but i think it's important for us to learn Gurmukhi so that in an effort to translate Gurmukhi into English, we don't forget about hidden metaphors that our Gurus very kindly placed in Gurbani.

I agree but wouldn't it follow that once people actually understood what was being said they maybe inclined to seek more knowledge which would then require learning of Gurmukhi. You cannot expect all to become scholars but they should all be worthy of guidance.

as for ur suggestion on making seating more comfortable... how far are u willing to go to attain comfort? would u like cushions? would u like chairs? no wait... lemme guess... a lazy boy sofa... right? i'm just kiddin with u.

comfortable seating can be arranged. but at what cost are we talkin here? the point of us sitting on the floor is to remember our place. we respect our Guru by placing him/her/it/whatever above our heads. of course we can do the same with chairs, but i think that sitting on the floor reminds you to be a lil more humble. but tha's just me.

There are many opportunities for showcasing the need to be humble, do you really want to choose a time when people should be listening to teachings and reflecting on their own being. This is probably the only time many people come in contact with the holy book. Why not make it as positive an experience as possible? I realize that it is probably enjoyable for you and those that understand all that is being said. But I am speeking from the perpective of recruitment.

u spoke about advertising our great deeds to the world. how we feed the hungry and have a free kitchen etc, etc. advertising these wonderful things isn't really in the best interest of Sikhi. why? because that kinda advertising is only gonna lead to pride and ego. this is where ur gonna get people starting to boast about how many people they fed and things prolly aren't gonna get too pleasant after that.

Why not set an example for the state? If the temples can feed the starving through donations that pale in comparison to tax revenue, the state would be forced to sit up and take notice and hopefully effect change. I am not suggesting it to show off.

Shaka Laka Baby and Dynamite have some very good suggestions for u. did u take a look at what they said? if u didn't lemme reiterate (cuz i agree with them): stop concerning urself with others. be who ur gonna be, whether tha's a keshdhari, sehajdhari or a full out Khalsa Panth-ic sorta person. do simran. do seva. be a part of sangat. dun sweat the small stuff. (sorry, i had to add it in. it just seemed so right for the line...)

I agree that I can easily fall into the bliss of my personal utopia but that doesn't fit with my ideals. I am looking for the same thing as Guru Nanak, Karl Marx and others were, that being collective utopia.

i laughed really hard at the part where you said how it's kinda stupid for you to have to explain to your colleagues/friends/whatever that in order for them to follow Sikhi, all they have to do is continue on with their good deeds and never cut their hair, wear a steel bracelet, funky underwear, etc.

if tha's all u think there is to bein a Sikh, ur quite mistaken. there's a lot more to the 5 Ks than meets the mortal eye. there are metaphors within metaphors within metaphors in Sikhi. and the 5 Ks just happen to be one of them.

I was over simplyfying the issues, I recognize the metaphors and the minuscule portion the 5Ks represents but I am not the one placing so much value on the 5Ks. It is those that are trying to force it on others that have created their distorted value.

Why not suggest to Sikhs that at one point in their life they should make a pilgramage of soughts to visit the Sikh historical sites of Sikhism. And also suggest that they try to emulate the founders during this trip by maintianing the 5Ks etc. I am just thinking out loud here. I would love to do something like that.

SWB, u keep asking about whether others think of u as any less for not being experienced, or a full-out "seek" (what the heck is that? i've heard of Sikh... never heard of seek...)

I apologize I too have been studying alot and my fingers sometimes type alot faster than my brain.

why is what other people say or think so important to you? if i call you an idiot, it doesn't mean anything. it doesn't make you an idiot. unless u really are one, which is completely different.

things only affect you if you let them. surely you know all about that by now. so why concern yourself with what others think? especially in your path to wherever you're going?

I am not concerned with what people think of me, but trying to emhasize that some of the participants in Sikhism have committed a cardinal sin, that being to judge others.

as for wheelchair accessible Gurudwarey... i agree with Shaka Laka Baby. btw, SWB, u live in the great pind of Tronto. isn't disky (dixie) Gurughar wheelchair accessible?

Don't get me started about Dixie Gurudwara, the place IMO has absolutely nothing to do with Sikhism. I will save my comments and experiences of Dixie for another day since I will probably alienate more people than a new comer ought to.

!

O.K. I accept that I have no credibility at the moment since I have no real experience but if lets say a baptized sikh suggested that we need to change the baptism procedure would you then consider the possibility as a community or are you vehemently apposed to change?

For example, it makes no sense that some temples are not wheelchair accessible. Why not raise the holy book so that all can sit and therefore those in wheelchairs can enjoy the teachings?

Is what I just suggested a really drastic change?

If it isn't how is a plan like that implemented at a temple?

Who makes the decision?

Good Night. Look forward to reading later today.

Charn

Dynamic_Banda it sounds like I am Sikh again, my mom is gonna be so happy.