bobbyboy

You mean Tarsem Singh Purewal of Des Pardes?

It is absolutely amazing that this forum has so many people who seem to know more than the police. So he was murdered by extremists? Why does the UK police spend millions in investigating these crimes and come up with nothing when wll they need to do is ask Antarjamis like Bruce Lung who can have a case cracked in a few minutes.

Only fruitcake here is you!

Get a life bruce Lung, we're talking about UK here. So tell me who has been told 'we know where u live' and who has been murdered 'from time to time'?

Sad how muslims are doing their best even partially quoting their scriptures in order to show themselves as 'peaceful' but we have Sikhs trying to create non-existant 'extremists'

Before people tell me to shut up.

shut up 8)

btw that's a great way to highlight the sign, do you some sort of certificate in using image software?

The original post doesn't quite ring true. Shall we say it's something a Muslim would write.

I got a feeling they probably sold it to some rich westerner. The Kartarpuri Bir was in the Tokshakhana of Maharaja Ranjit Singh and it was resored to the Sodhis after a court case.

Refutation of the heresy that Guru Gobind Singh was monogamous:

Neo-Sikhs have no shame as they go to the point of re-writing the private life of the Gurus . A growing number of Neo-Sikh institutions have started to propagate the view that polygamy was forbidden in the Sikh tradition. This claim obviously contradicts the traditional sources on the lives of the Sikh Gurus. A document posted on various Neo-Sikh websites by a certain Harjinder Singh He writes:

‘The wrong impression that the Guru had more than one wife was created by those writers who were ignorant of Punjabi culture.’

This statement by a Sikh of the 20th century implies that all those traditional scholars who were contemporary of the Gurus or have a scholarly lineage going back to Guru Gobind Singh are ‘ignorant of Punjabi culture’. Even today the traditional Sikh orders maintain what all the oldest documents state. Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale, one of the most celebrated traditional Sikh scholars of the 20th century, highly respected by even Neo-Sikhs, basing himself on the original sources clearly states in the Guru Bansvali chapter of his Gurmat Rahit Maryada that Guru Hargobind (the sixth Guru) had three wives (Mata Damodari, Mata Nanaki and Mata Marvahi) Guru Hari Rai (seventh Guru) had eighth wives (all sisters, their names being Mata Krishan Kaur, Mata Chand Kaur, Mata Kaliani, Mata Tokhi, Mata Anokhi, Mata Ladho and Mata Prem Kaur) and Guru Gobind Singh (the tenth Guru) had three wives (Mata Jito, Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan).

The acclaimed Nirmala scholar Pandit Tara Singh Narotam lists the shrines associated with wives of the Gurus. Giani Gian Singh’s Panth Prakash and Tavarikh Guru Khalsa and Bhai Santokh Singh’s Suraj Prakash Granth, all authoritative sources on the lives of the Sikh Gurus clearly state the three Gurus mentioned above were polygamous. Prof. Ganda Singh, a renowned 20th century Sikh scholar published the manuscripts of the hukamnamas of Mata Sahib Devan and Mata Sundari .

The Mughal records themselves mention Mata Sundari and Mata Sahib Devan as being two of the three wives of Guru Gobind Singh.

Saying that Guru Gobind Singh only had one wife is not only heresy but a sinful act.

There is a lot of contradictory writings about the wife/wives of Guru Har Rai. Sant Gurbachan Singh seems to have taken Kavi Santokh Singh's view on eight wives all sisters as an established fact. But do they stand up to scrutiny?

Kesar Singh in Bansalvinama says that

Guru Har Rai married Kot Kalyani also called Sunita. With her came her beautifl maidservant Punjab Kaur, Guru married her as well, eight years after Ram Rai the eldest sonw as born to Punjab Kaur, five years after Punjab Kaur gave birth to Sarup Kaur and a year later ( Guru )Har Krishan was born to Kot Kalyani

Only two wives are listed and Ram Rai and Sarup Kaur were relegated to a lowly birth being born of a maidservant whilst (Guru )Har Krishan was born to a lady of noble birth.

One can see that Kesar Singh writing a century after the event may have tried to relegate Ram Rai as he was aware that he was not given Guruship by Guru Har Rai. Another mistake that Kesar Singh makes is his his confusion of Punjab Kaur as the mother of Ram Rai when in fact she was his wife and continued to look after the Dera at Dun after his death.

Sarup Das Bhalla writing only a decade after Kesar Singh says that Mata Sulakhni was Guru Har Rai's wife and both Rama Rai and Guru Har Krishan were her sons and Bibi Sarup Kaur as their sister. Kavi Saund's Gurpranali agrees with this account. The Bhat Vahis discovered in the 1970's also list Mata Sulakhni as Guru Har Rai's only wife.

It is the Gurpranali literature of the late 18th and early 19th century which has led to confusion about the number of wives of Guru Har Rai.

Whilst Ravi Santokh Singh gives the name sof eight sisters who married Guru Har Rai, the gurpranali of Gulab Singh list four as of noble birth and the other four as being their maidservants whom the Guru also married. Whereas only Kot Kalyani is listed as a maidservant by Kesar Singh.

The media as usual are trying to mislead the public

press release

VahegurujikaKhalsa, VahegurujikiFateh!

On Saturday 25 June, the Sikh community prevented the desecration of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (the embodiment of the Sikh prophets) taking place in Slough. The Sikh faith community has decided on a global level that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji cannot be taken to places which serve alcohol, meat, cigarettes etc.

The owners of Baylis House, a banqueting hall, restaurant and bar, in Slough made repeated attempts to bring Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji onto their premises for the purposes of a 'Sikh' wedding service (the groom was a Christian). The local Sikh place of worship, Ramgarhia Gurdwara, which is one minutes walk away, had offered to hold the ceremony in the appropriate settings but the management and/or family refused.

Two saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji were recovered peaceably. The saroops were not taken from anybody whilst they were walking - the first was hidden in a duvet on a cars passenger seat and the second from the lap of a person in a peoples carrier. Contrary to media reports, there was absolutely no violence and no one was knocked to the ground. Thames Valley Police have confirmed that no violence took place and assisted the community by agreeing that no further attempts would be made to take Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji into the Hall.

A further ''wedding' was scheduled for Sunday. In concert with the Police, it was agreed with the owners of Baylis House that no saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib would be taken onto the premises. A so called compromise was suggested i.e the use of a 'gutka' for the wedding ceremony, which it is believed refers to 'senchi''s' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. This was rejected by the Sikh community. If anybody is offering to conduct such 'weddings', please inform GurJeevan Singh below - it is not a valid Sikh wedding.

We would like to thank all of the Sikhs, young and old, men AND women (contrary to press reports), who helped on that day. Please inform everybody you know, that taking Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to such bars, restaurants etc is unacceptable.

Finally, if you hear of any further incidents, please contact GurJeevan Singh on 07944-445651 or email sikhalerts@yahoo.co.uk.

Respect For Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Campaign.

Tel: 07743-211135

Email: sikhalerts@yahoo.co.uk

www.GuruGranthSahibJi.com

1)Sikhism does not believe that any Holy Book takes precedence over all others or any religions prophet is the final messenger of God.

- The Quran is considered the final revelation of God in His own words. It was send to clear up previous messages that had been distorted by men for their own benefit. It is also consodered to be the final chapter in revelation. If you look at the word "Rasul" in arabic then the word prophet doesnt give justice to its meaning. Muhammad was considered the final Rasul in that he was the last person to recieve Gods direct and exact words through the angel Gabriel. This is not to say that great teachers and saints did not and would not come after him. This is the belief of muslims according to Islam..

'Jaisi Mai Avai Khasam Ki Bani

Taisri Kari Gyan Ve Lalo' Guru Nanak

Just as the message comes from the Lord so do I make it known to others O Lalo

Guru Nanak was not just some teacher or saint he was a Guru, a light (jot) which was the same essence as the light of the creator. He did not have fits or seizures when in communication with Waheguru such as Mohammed did but since his light was the same light as Waheguru he had more of a connection with Waheguru than a 'Rasul'. Yes Islam does believe that some other teachers or saints may come but none greater than Mohammed and none that will contradict his message. Guru Nanak was ( in my view ) greater and he did contradict Mohammed's message

2) Purpose of the Holy Book

"Thus We have revealed the Koran in the Arabic tongue and proclaimed in it warnings and threats so that they may take heed and guard themselves against evil." (20:114 Quran)

- Yes but each chapter also begins with the words "In the name of Allah MOST GRACIOUS MOST MERCIFUL" and muslims are also told by God that "My mercy is greater than my anger". Anger at what? Anger at us doing harm to our own souls by wronging ourselves, wronging others and wronging God...

The purpose of the Guru Granth sahib is to act as a guide, to be the Bani of the Gurus so that their message is there for all ythe know and reflect upon. There is no such thing as an angry God in Sikhism. Anger is a human emotion.

3)Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion.

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." (5:49, Quran)

- this quote refers to a time of war when muslims were being persecuted by Jews and Christians. Some where former family and friends. It reminds me of the story of Arjun when he had to fight against his own family in the Mahabharat.

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (48:29, Quran)

- another quote revealed in a time of war when muslims were fighting oppression. Ruthless to those unbelievers they were at war with.. those who would persecute the muslims and did.

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-tax, let them go their way. Allah is forgiving and merciful." (9:4, Quran)

- another quote in the time of war. if their enemy became muslim then he was no longer their enemy because he was not fighting against them or persecuting them for what they believed in...

It is easy to rationalise such quotes by claiming the context excuse. Surely Allah would have made sure that he refered to 'certain' Jews and Christians and not just refer to Jews and Christians?

4) Sri Guru Granth Sahib places greater emphasis on love of God as the main motivation for man rather than fear of God.

- Each chapter begins with the words "In the Name of Allah, Most Compasionate Most Merciful" There is a reason for this. There has to be a balance of fear and love. Fear of displeasing your Creator and Love for wanting to please Him. In the begining a child is afraid when their parent shouts at them or talks firmly to them.. fear keeps a young child in line. As the child begins to grow and understand then this child realizes that their parent only had their best interest in mind and begins to do things out of love for the parent and not out of fear. This is the same thing with ones love and fear for God...

I think the basic difference between Islam and Sikhism is that teaches that one has to strive to reach one's potential. Islam on the other hand offers a set of guidelines and if you follow them then hey presto your entitles to a seat in heaven. This is also the difference between semitic and indic religions.

5) Sikhism does not believe in the idea of Gods name being only those authorized in a religious tradition or Holy Book.

- Neither does Islam. We are told that 124,000 prophets have been sent to the earth and to every people and nation in it since the beginning of time. So therefore God has been called upon by many names and even names that have been forgotten...

Yes but islam believes that all the follwoers of the 124,000 prophets corrupted their message and tht is why Mohammed had to come and give is message. This isn't the same as all religions can lead to God.

6) Non-Sikhs are allowed to visit and enter the most sacred shrine of the religion, The Golden Temple.

- Non-muslims can go into any mosque except the Kaaba...

Non-Muslims are not allowed in Mecca and there is a ban on any non-Muslim worship in the whole of saudi arabia. These laws were enacted because Mohammed has said that there would be no religion other than Islam in Arabia.

7) Attitude towards women. Sikh women are allowed to lead congregations of men at the temple or administer all religious ceremonies involving either men or women.

- Sikh form of worship and muslim form of worship are quite different. In Islam women pray behind the men or above them at the upper level of the mosque. the reason for this is so that people can concentrate on God. Women will not be dstracted by men and most of all men wont be distracted by women. Some men are easily distracted by a womans body and if she is bowing and bending over in front of him then his thoughts may go to places it shouldnt be while he is standing before God in prayer. This is only a restriction for formal ritual prayers. This is not necessarily a restriction in other forms of worship like zikr (simran) and giving talks on religious and spiritual matters...

If a Muslim can get so easily distracted by a women fully clothed in a Jilbab bending down then perhaps he should consider whether he really has any self control over his senses. All other religions it seems apart from Islam teach their followers SELF RESTRAINT.

8)Sikhism does not believe in women wearing veils.

- Neither do most sects in Islam. Infact women who wear veils must take them off when they are praying. Many learned muslims speak out against the veil. According to the understanding of most muslim scholars the veil is a choice and not something that is forced. Women may wear the veil if they feel men in a foreign area would be a threat to them...

Most sects..lol. Which ones are those?

9)Sikhism does not believe in fasting or pilgrimages.

- Islam teaches that empty rituals are useless. Fasting and pilgrimage done without proper intent and devotion are empty. ..

The difference being that Sikhism teaches that fasting and pilgrimages are in themselves empty rituals and devoid of any merit.

10) Sikhism rejects the killing of any animal evoking a prayer or by slow death. Muslim Halal meat is forbidden for Sikhs.

- Islam is against the torture of animals. There is a hadith (saying of the prophet) that tells of a woman who was punished by God for starving a cat to death and a prostitute that was given the reward of heaven for giving a thirsty dog some water. Animals that are to be slaughtered must be slaughtered with a sharp knife. Must be calmed before they are slaughtered and the killing cannot happen infront of other animals. The jugular vein must be cut so that the blood is drained from the animal. These are the guidelines for slaughter according to Islam. Jhatka would be quicker but muslims have a restriction against consuming blood which carries impurities... especially in hot countries...

Not drinking blood of an animal is nothing to do with the 'carrying impurities'.. it is to do with the myth of ancient cultures that the blood was the source of life.

11) Sikhism rejects the idea of circumcision.

- Circumcision was a tradition started by Abraham so Muslims and Jews follow it. There is a religious and medical reason for it. In places where water was not that available and living outside the whole time it was very important to keep oneself clean. Not only was circumcision the sign of the covenant between Abraham and God but it was also done to prevent infections etc. Circumcision is not necessary for converts who enter Islam but only mandatory for newborns. We all alter our body in some way to show which religion we belong to too.

He never said goray are the only ones to sleep around, but it is more prevalent amongst Goray. How many goray parents care if their daughter is sleeping around, they only care that she doesn't get STDs or pregnant.

Got the Ali information from

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/ali666.html

Sorry Bro, you're no Jat. Call it Jat-intuition

You are indirectly saying that only Jats have Ankh. Do you have Ankh?

I keep getting runtime erro windows when i try and access a topic. have to keep clicking no ten times to go to topic

Let's not confuse the issue. Sleeping around is wrong and it doesn't become right just because the person who was sleeping around was murdered. Disassociate the two things. Murder is bad and so is sleeping around. Going around your family's back but still living in their house and enjoying the fruits of their labour is also a bad thing to do. If she had made up her mind she should have left the family home and moved away.

Instead of keeping your legs in two separate boats, maybe you should stick to one before you drown.

There's an akhaan in the part of UP where I come from concerning Zabita Khan who was an Afghan of Rohilla clan who became a Sikh and then went back to Islam during the time of the Dal Khalsa invasion of the Ganga Doab in late 18th century.

Guru Ka Ek Chela

Aadha Sikh Aadha Rohilla

Guru has one follower

half Sikh and half Rohilla

Thanks Naranjana I'll deffo do that

This is the first one in Toronto ... or canada in that matter

gr8 news, as CE said, the more the merrier

What the heck? So you're justifying her indulgence into fornication? I don’t know how things are in Europe, but in Cananda most Punjabi people still have a sense of Sharam, most will not allow their daughters and sisters to indulge in sexual relations with Goray, whether you like it or not.

And what the heck is a gandharva vivah?

It's where a girl chooses her own husband because her family cannot find one for us or are creating obstacles to her marrying someone. Shaka would get his butt kicked for suggesting something like that in a Jat Khaps of UP and Haryana. In Punjab his beloved Pindus (always thought it was Pendu but Shaka is the scholar here so I'll leave it as Pindu) would use the usual tar and jutti around neck method

You say Pindu I say Pendu

You say Kattah I say Katha

Lets call the whole thing off

Where did you get the information that they were Shias?

Singh47 wrote:

WOW Guru Gobind Singh must be so proud!!!

Sikhi does not equal being pindu!!!!

Burce Lung is right. She was in the age of sexual maturity, she had the right to do it and in any case who says that it was illegitimate? Maybe they did gandharva vivah which would legaly invalidate the objection of fornication.

Anyone who defends this man commits the same sin as him!!!

Stop justifying sleeping around. It's a sin for both the brother and the sister. The family are hypocries to allow the son to sleep around but take action against the daughter. Sikhi also doesn't equal sleeping around. It might be ok for your sister or daughter.

From what I've read the Iranians are pissed off with Islam in general Shia and Sunni. Ironic thing is that they used to have so much love for Ali when he was one of the people who directed the Arab invasion of Persia thereby raping and pillaging a great civilisation. I've been told that Ali took Persian women as slaves. If there is a general apostasy from Islam in Iran I wonder what the Iranians will do to the tomb of Ali or Hussein?

I just wanted to thank Bhai Amritpal Singh Ji for his great site www.amritworld.com especially for the articles in English. I have been a member of this forum since February and have been reading all the old threads. I was confused by one member's views on kirpan amrit, the nihang views on bhang, kalki avtar, and a whole host of other views. One of the forum members pointed me towards Bhai Amritpal Singh's site and reading his views backed up by Gurbani and historical books helped me to understand better these issues.

Thank You Amritpal Singh Veerji and please continue your great sewa!

So now two Ayotollahs of Shai Islam are heretics and you know more about Shi'ism then them. How many years have you studied? These two had studied Shi'ism since childhood.

another &^%^%#%@ remark!!!Cursing and condemning his behaviour is constructive as it is an explicit condemnation of a crime. To condemn a crime is a duty!!! condemning is constructive because one expresses one's disgust at the sin of kurimar and narimar. One should praise what is good and condemn evil, not just stand there and say: God we'll take care of it!!! I am not a Protestant or a Sunni!!!

In battle it is the duty of the Khalsa to fight for the Guru, it isn't the Guru who fights for you. That's dishonorable. In the same way, when justified the explicit condemnation of such crimes is a constructive thing and in fact a duty.

Millions of curses on all kurimars and narimars!!!!

:roll: You really need to control your anger buddy and I resent the inference that because I don't choose to dirty my mouth by condemning people to hell then it means that I don't think it's a big deal.

Shaka

The list was from the website of ayotollah al sistani of Iraq which has subsequently been taken off, maybe he didn't want the najis kuffar to know what his beliefs were!

No one ever said non-amritdhari are impure so don't make things up to back your argument. Just because your alim doesn't subscribe to the theory of najis then it doesn't mean that millions of Shia do not.

You will come across some ignorant Sikhs taking part in the siapa for hussein but many Sikhs also go to Jwalamukhi and Mandirs. The Gurus ask us to accept the Bhana of Waheguru, beating your chests for a long dead Shia leader is not following the Gurus!

Found another very good quote from another Shia ayotollah, Khomeini

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.

From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

Book Title Page/ Cover

Inside Cover of Book

Excerpt: Page [1] | Page [2]

[]

It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin

menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any

father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in

heaven. From Khomeini's book, "Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm,

Gom,

Iran, 1990

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep¹s, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

From Khomeini's book,

"Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

"If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrements become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as

possible and burned."

The little green book, Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini,

Political, Phylosophica, Social and Religious with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number 0-553-14032-9, page 47