laalsingh

Rajai comes from Sanskrit as there were Rajput rulers who gave commands as Kings.

rājā — the king; BG 1.2

pāda-raja — the dust of your feet; CC Antya 16.22

Rajaa-ee is an Arabic word from Raza meaning by the Divine Will.

Make up your mind.

Rajai comes from Sanskrit as there were Rajput rulers who gave commands as Kings.

rājā — the king; BG 1.2

pāda-raja — the dust of your feet; CC Antya 16.22

Are you implying that ਰਜਾਈ from ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ is taken from Sanskrit?

I am not a Vaishnav. But Gurbani is clearly supporting the Vaishnav practices of keeping Naam Simran. Bhair Gurdas Ji vaaran teaches us that Vaheguru Gurmantra comes from beej syllables V for Vishnu, Vasudeyva, H for Har Krishan, G for Gobind, R for Raam. These are the Naams which the Vaishnav sampradayas jap to carry across the ocean of suffering and have mukti in the Kalyuga.

Hukam is from Arabic word Hukm, meaning order or command. In Punjabi it means the Order or command of Vaheguru's will. It also means submission and living in harmony with the Divine will.

Rajai comes from Sanskrit as there were Rajput rulers who gave commands as Kings.

rājā — the king; BG 1.2

pāda-raja — the dust of your feet; CC Antya 16.22

Sanatana Dharma gave the world the tradition of Gur-chela. The word of the Guru is the will of God. His words are pure command for the chela's life. You think there is no following the commands and orders of the Guru as submitting and keeping harmony with God's will in sanatan sampradayas? Where do you think the term "das" came from? Where do you think the tradition of touching feet came from, or drinking charan pahul? It came out of this same heritage and tradition which the Vaishnav's also keep, and which the Sikhs also keep. Or are you implying radical distinction on the basis of simple terminology of an Arabic word?

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

hukam rajaaee chalanaa naanak likhiaa naal ||1||

O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command,

and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

~SGGS Ji ang 1

In Sanskrit the word Prapatti means "to throw oneself down." It means to seek refuge at the Guru's feet, self-surrender to Guru's will. You must have prapatti before you can have bhakti. It means submission to the Divine Will.

ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਹੋਹੁ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਅਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ॥

saadhhoo kee hohu raenukaa apanaa aap thiaag ||

Become the dust of the Saints; renounce your selfishness and conceit.

3 Sriraag Guru Arjan Dev

ਉਪਾਵ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਸਗਲ ਛਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥

oupaav siaanap sagal shhadd gur kee charanee laag ||

Give up all your schemes and your clever mental tricks, and fall at the Feet of the Guru.

~SGGS Ji ang 45

That is not the answer. I repeat, Hukam is first step in Sikh's journey. Living Guru and Chela relationship is not Hukam. First understand Hukam and then we can talk. Long posts do not mean anything.

ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਹੋਹੁ ਰੇਣੁਕਾ ਅਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ॥

ਉਪਾਵ ਸਿਆਣਪ ਸਗਲ ਛਡਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਚਰਣੀ ਲਾਗੁ ॥

These Tuks do not have anything to do with Razai and Hukam. First Tuk is about humility and second Tuk is about following Gurmat.

I see Sufism as an offshoot of Sanatana Dharma and not anything like fundamentalist Islam, so I have no problem with them. Sufism is the continuation of Sant Mat in those communities of Hindus who were forcibly converted by the Moghuls, and a large body of brilliant Kaula tantra Shaivite mysticism exists in it's symbolism. Sufis are the sons and daughters of people like Bhai Mardana, and often had Shaiva and Vaishnavite Gurus and became their own lineage. Of course there are deluded and abusive people in every religious sect. But I accept Sufism as related to Sanatana Dharma and generally more open minded.

You removed Khalsa from your name and became a Shakta now?

Journey starts with accepting Hukam. I don't know about Vaishnavs. What do they say about Hukam and Razai?

Word 'Bhujangi' comes to mind.

ਕੋਈ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਾਨੀ ਕਲਗੀਆਂ ਵਾਲੇ ਦਾ। ਦਾਤਿਆ, ਧੰਨਵਾਦ ਈ ਤੇਰਾ ਜੋ ਐਸਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਏ।

One 'pehar' is 3 hours. A very much used term 'Dopahar' means exactly noon. That means first 'pehar' should be around 6am. 'Pichchla pehar' is most probably last 'pehar'.

Anyway don't be so literal with these timings.

Here what Satguru Nanak says on Ang 146,

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

ਸਬਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ ॥

ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ ਵਖਤੈ ਉਪਰਿ ਲੜਿ ਮੁਏ ॥

ਦੂਜੈ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਰਾਹ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮਤੀ ਖਿੰਡੀਆ ॥

ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਏ ਅਸਗਾਹ ਗੋਤੇ ਖਾਹਿ ਨ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ ॥

ਤੀਜੈ ਮੁਹੀ ਗਿਰਾਹ ਭੁਖ ਤਿਖਾ ਦੁਇ ਭਉਕੀਆ ॥

ਖਾਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਸੁਆਹ ਭੀ ਖਾਣੇ ਸਿਉ ਦੋਸਤੀ ॥

ਚਉਥੈ ਆਈ ਊਂਘ ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟਿ ਪਵਾਰਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

ਭੀ ਉਠਿ ਰਚਿਓਨੁ ਵਾਦੁ ਸੈ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਕੀ ਪਿੜ ਬਧੀ ॥

ਸਭੇ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੇ ਅਠੀ ਭਉ ਹੋਇ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥

Shalok starts with Satguru comparing hardship for getting up early in the morning to the kings who die fighting for their duty at the right time. (This is start.)

Then shalok explains how mind got engrossed in duality and physical needs like hunger and sleep for rest of the day.

In the last tuks, Satguru says that if we remember our beloved during all the eight 'pehars'. Then He is obtained. (This is manzil.)

Bhagat Peepa ji said it very much literally. Same is the reason pilgrimage, bathing in holy rivers of pools and other outside rituals are useless in our spiritual progress. Only continuous Naam Simran and contemplation on Gurbani will get us towards our goal. Guru Amardas ji says on Ang 441.

ਮਨ ਤੂੰ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਪਛਾਣੁ ॥

1. I started doing a variation of 'Vipasna'. I can see consciousness wrapped in emotions and senses of this body. Stay focused and keep stripping these layers of 'maya'. When you feel that it is pure (or better), say 'Waheguru' with attention towards Lord. It will be like shouting in a empty hall. Pure bliss. (It happened over a long period.)

2. Now problem with this approach. When my consciousness is pure (or free from senses and emotions), I tried listening to Gurbani or Keertan and felt nothing. Normally, I would have forgotten everything and closed eyes in love for beloved.

Bhakti path needs love to progress out of set of emotions we have. (As Satguru said in Japji, love is language of Lord.)

Result (for now): Buddhist style effort to get rid of our emotions can be good to concentrate. But Bhakti marg need love from this (otherwise useless) spectrum of emotions to reach Lord (or next stage).

Rest later.

This is beautiful - what a brilliant rendition - they capture the mood so perfectly!!!

What wonderous stage those have reached who understand this simple yet deeply meaningful Sloak...

Enjoy.

salok ma 5 ||

Shalok, Fifth Mehl:

ਚਿੜੀ ਚੁਹਕੀ ਪਹੁ ਫੁਟੀ ਵਗਨਿ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਤਰੰਗ ॥

chirree chuhakee pahu futtee vagan bahuth tharang ||

The sparrows are chirping, and dawn has come; the wind stirs up the waves.

ਅਚਰਜ ਰੂਪ ਸੰਤਨ ਰਚੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਹਿ ਰੰਗ ॥੧॥

acharaj roop santhan rachae naanak naamehi rang ||1||

Such a wondrous thing the Saints have fashioned, O Nanak, in the Love of the Naam. ||1||

During paath, these two tuks would have taken few seconds to recite (and ignored by most). But look at power of music.

By mentioning raags, Satguru made music integral part of Gurbani.

ਉਤੰਗੀ - ਉਤ ਅੰਗੀ meaning taller

ਪੈਓਹਰੀ - Word is from Pyodhar in Hindi which means milk or water. So ਪੈਓਹਰੀ means woman with full breasts or in second context it could be clouds. But here Satguru is talking about young proud woman, so it must be full breasts.

ਗਹਿਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ - ਗਹਿਰ means deep, ਗੰਭੀਰ means lost in thoughts. Together it means self absorbed.

She is tall, young with full breasts and self absorbed in her pride (of being full figured).

ਸਸੁੜਿ ਸੁਹੀਆ ਕਿਵ ਕਰੀ ਨਿਵਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਥਣੀ ॥

Now look at excuse.

How can I bow in front of my mother-in-law, my full breasts won't let me?

Next two tuks are the answers.

ਗਚੁ ਜਿ ਲਗਾ ਗਿੜਵੜੀ ਸਖੀਏ ਧਉਲਹਰੀ ॥

ਸੇ ਭੀ ਢਹਦੇ ਡਿਠੁ ਮੈ ਮੁੰਧ ਨ ਗਰਬੁ ਥਣੀ ॥੧॥

Full translation from Prof Sahib Singh is

ਉੱਚੇ ਲੰਮੇ ਕੱਦ ਵਾਲੀ, ਭਰ-ਜੁਆਨੀ ਤੇ ਅੱਪੜੀ ਹੋਈ, ਮਾਣ ਵਿਚ ਮੱਤੀ ਹੋਈ ਮਸਤ ਚਾਲ ਵਾਲੀ (ਆਪਣੀ ਸਹੇਲੀ ਨੂੰ ਆਖਦੀ ਹੈ-ਹੇ ਸਹੇਲੀਏ!) ਭਰਵੀਂ ਛਾਤੀ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਮੈਥੋਂ ਲਿਫ਼ਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਂਦਾ। (ਦੱਸ,) ਮੈਂ (ਆਪਣੀ) ਸੱਸ ਨੂੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਕਰਾਂ? (ਮੱਥਾ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਟੇਕਾਂ?)। (ਅਗੋਂ ਸਹੇਲੀ ਉੱਤਰ ਦੇਂਦੀ ਹੈ-) ਹੇ ਸਹੇਲੀਏ! (ਇਸ) ਭਰਵੀਂ ਜੁਆਨੀ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਨਾ ਕਰ (ਇਹ ਜੁਆਨੀ ਜਾਂਦਿਆਂ ਚਿਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਗਣਾ। ਵੇਖ,) ਜਿਹੜੇ ਪਹਾੜਾਂ ਵਰਗੇ ਪੱਕੇ ਮਹੱਲਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਚੂਨੇ ਦਾ ਪਲਸਤਰ ਲੱਗਾ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਸੀ, ਉਹ (ਪੱਕੇ ਮਹੱਲ) ਭੀ ਡਿਗਦੇ ਮੈਂ ਵੇਖ ਲਏ ਹਨ (ਤੇਰੀ ਜੁਆਨੀ ਦੀ ਤਾਂ ਕੋਈ ਪਾਂਇਆਂ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ)।੧।

this is a line from Aad Guru that i saw. im only reading a literal translation of it and didnt understand it.

This Shabad is by Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Salok Vaaraan Thay Vadheek on Pannaa 1410

First Mehla:

O you with swollen breasts, let your consciousness become deep and profound.

O mother-in-law, how can I bow? Because of my stiff nipples, I cannot bow.

O sister, those mansions built as high as mountains

- I have seen them come crumbling down. O bride, do not be so proud of your nipples. ||1||

What is the antreev message here and why does the word nipples be better than any other body part, lets say nose or eyes?

Arth by Prof Sahib Singh are very clear.

Or white. Nothing of it.

We are beyond this league.

Question is not new. Green or orange?

It should be black, inclusive of all.

How can 'Dhur ki bani' evolve? These pothis were held by different fake gurus or gurugadhis. These pothis can be easily copied from original writings. If somebody believe that Dhur ki Bani evolve, why evolution stopped after Tenth Master?

Anyway Tenth Master gave gurgaddi to Adi Granth. And that is Dhur ki bani.

Researchers had never and will never stop writing these papers for their own selfish agendas.

T

But in his younger years, he didn't always have these beleifs. There was a time when he was a leading Sikh leader of the Malwa Sikhs. He did massive Parchaar in his day bringing many people from Malwa into Sikhi. He was also a social reformer, he would encourage girls to attend school, he would do massive parchar against smoking because at the time many people in Malwa would smoke Hukaas. But something happened along the way and he started having these strange views concearning religion. I'm not really sure of what his views on meat were.

His example is for us. Who ever Guru Jee wants to raise to the position of leader he can. But who ever goes away from Guru Sahib's Nazar, that person falls like ash. After Teja Singh Bhasour was excommunicated, no one paid any attention to him. He died in obscurity. We as Sikhs need to pray from out hearts to guru Jee that our views stay in tune with Gurmat and never get corrupted like what happened to Teja Singh Bhasour.

Before being in tune with Gurmat, we have to understand it. Maybe Teja Singh never understood Gurmat, otherwise he didn't have to omit Hari, Karishna or other Hindu names from Guru Granth.

Five beloved are guru roop. One man guruship is not allowed in Sikhism after Tenth Master. Panth and Granth hold the guruship. Granth being spiritual and Panth is temporal.

Your hypothetical Vaihnav and your Durga devotee will interpret Dasam bani according to their own Hindumat, exactly as you are interpreting Dasam Bani according to your own Hindu ideology. Neither of these have anything to do with Gurmat.

The fact remains that what differentiates Sikhs from Hindus is that Gurbani calls God by the name of Ram and a Sikh understands this as one of many names used to refer to God, but a Hindu interprets this as being the same being as Ram of Ayodhya. Sikhs do not believe the mythological Ram of Hindu tales is equivalent to Ram referring to God, neither is Ram of Ayodhya considered any kind of sargun form of God. Should the story of Ramayana disappear from the face of the earth and the memory of its Hindu inhabitants, God would still exist, but the Hindu Ram would cease to be.

k.

It even goes beyond that. Nirankar exists even if this universe (along with time and space) disappears.

Fateh!

I'm still not 100% certain what role Chandi plays in Sikhi, but I am 100% certain it is not the same as the Hindu belief. Sikhi, to my limited understanding, acknowledges the existence of Akal Purakh's Shakti, His Primordial Power - which is decribed in feminine terms because Shakti has traditionally been described in feminine terms in Indian religion, and which is sometimes named Bhagauti, or Chandi, or Durga, or simply Lokmata - but, unlike in Shakta philosophy where Shiva and Shakti are described as separate entities, Sikhs do not believe that Akal Purakh's Shakti is separate from Himself (as singh2 has repeatedly illustrated on this forum with quotes from Dasam Granth). After all, half of infinity is still infinity.

Regards,

K.

Kalijug ji, of course, Lord is creator and creation. Shakti is part of His creation. But Shakti is Maya, root of five vices and three gunas and hindrance to our way to Lord. Bhagat Kabir even called her snake. Gursikh should worship Akal only.

Bhagat Beni on Ang 96

ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਅਰਾਧਿਆ ॥ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥

Bhagat Kabir on Ang 332

ਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਬਾਣਿ ਬਜਰ ਕਲ ਛੇਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਪਦੁ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ॥ਸਕਤਿ ਅਧੇਰ ਜੇਵੜੀ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਚੂਕਾ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਸਿਵ ਘਰਿ ਬਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

Bhagat Kabir on Ang 339

ਕਾਟਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਸਹਜੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸਿਓ ਏਕੈ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾਨਾ ॥ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟਿ ਮਹਾ ਸੁਖ ਭ੍ਰਮਤ ਰਹੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਾਨਾਂ ॥੪॥੨੩॥੭੪॥

Bhagat Kabir on Ang 447

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

Third Master on Ang 506 advising to banish Shakti's maya and enter Shiv's house.

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਚੈ ਸਕਤਿ ਨਿਵਾਰੈ ਸਿਵ ਘਰਿ ਨੀਦ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ਸਕਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਗਤੁ ਸੂਤਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਟਾਪੈ ਅਵਰੋ ਗਾਵੈ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੩॥

Guru Amardas on Ang 786

ਸੂਹਵੀਏ ਸੂਹਾ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਦੂਜਾ ਭਾਉ ॥ਖਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਠੁ ਸਭੁ ਬਿਨਸਿ ਜਾਇ ਜਿਉ ਟਿਕੈ ਨ ਬਿਰਖ ਕੀ ਛਾਉ ॥ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਲਾਲੋ ਲਾਲੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਰੰਗਿ ਮਜੀਠ ਸਚੜਾਉ ॥ਉਲਟੀ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਈ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਜਿਤੁ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਉ ॥੧॥

Guru Amardas on Ang 1090 made it clear that Shakti is not the way to Lord

ਦੋਵੈ ਤਰਫਾ ਉਪਾਈਓਨੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਸਿਵ ਵਾਸਾ ॥ਸਕਤੀ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਨਮਿ ਬਿਨਾਸਾ ॥

Laal Singh Ji, please give a good explanation of Pauri 30 then because based on quotes from Gurbani posted by you and me, it is clear that Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh aren't the Creator, Provider and Evaluator.

How would you translate three chelas in Japuji quote then?

Guru Arjun Dev ji on Ang 868.

ਤੀਨਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਇਕ ਸਕਤਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ਮਹਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਹੈ ਛਾਇਆ ॥

Also on Ang 865

ਪੰਚ ਪੂਤ ਜਣੇ ਇਕ ਮਾਇ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਖੇਲੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਗਤ ਵਿਆਇ ॥ ਤੀਨਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਚਿ ਰਸੇ ॥ ਇਨ ਕਉ ਛੋਡਿ ਊਪਰਿ ਜਨ ਬਸੇ ॥੩॥

Paur 30

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ॥

Lord created this world in Maya. Though trimurti (Brahama, Vishnu and Mahesh) is accepted as three disciples (as creator, protector and destroyer), but Lord is the creator, Lord is the protector and Lord is the destroyer.

A Gursikh is above Maya and never worship Maya or Shakti or Lakshmi or any other Devi representation of Maya. Gursikh worship Akal and only Akal.

A link I came across shows how some people are running their show by misinterpreting this tuk

http://www.adishakti.org/meeting_his_messe...uru_nanak_2.htm

Every dawn millions of Sikhs across the world recite the Japji Sahib, the revered salutations to the Universal Soul. But for some reason these millions have missed this priceless pearl of Aykaa Mayee despite daily recital, for more than five centuries!

By instinct the entire religious herd stampedes through the Japji Sahib without even pausing to admire or inquire who is this Aykaa Mayee — day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade, century after century! One wonders why are so many so blind for so long?

We will take a single example of the few who mislead the vast majority. Dr. Santokh Singh is a prominent and well-known Punjabi translator, writer and defender of the faith. We will see how this patriarchal theologian has managed to mutilate this critical part of the Japji Sahib concerning the Aykaa Mayee, the Divine Feminine. He had to do so in order to remove the presence of Adi Shakti, the feminine power of God Almighty, just as male Christian priests and pastors have done to the Holy Ghost and masculine Muslim mullahs and muftis to Allah’s Ruh.

"Aadays, tisai aadays. Aad aneel anaad anaahat, jug jug ayko vays.

Obeisance, obeisance to Him, the Primal, the Immaculate, without beginning, without end, Immutable through all ages.

Aykaa maa-ee, jugat viaaee, tin chalay parvaan.

(O Yogi, this thought is prevalent that) the mother (Mayaa) was conceived alone in some mysterious way and she procreated three deities.

Ik sansaaree, ik bhandaaree, ik laa-ay deeban.

(Of the Three deities) one was creator (Barmaa), one sustainer (Vishnoo), and one destroyer (Shiva) of the world.

Jiv tis bhaavai, tivai chalaavai, jiv havai phurmaan.

(But in actual fact) the world moves as He ordains and as He pleases.

Oh vaykahi, onaa nadar na aavai, buhutaa ayho vidaan.

He sees all, but no one sees Him: this is a great wonder."

Dr. Santokh Singh, Nitnaym Banees

Sikh Resource Centre, Canada, 1992, p. 44.

Yea, they existed but not as the creator, sustainer and evaluator.

They existed as human that owned small territories.

They didn't exist as creator, sustainer and evalutor of creation.

Hopefully, that clears things up. Please do post reply if you understand my point or if you don't understand my point.

Thanks.

Khalsa Fauj, you are right, but there is more. Once they were kings and lived human lives. But these names represents different things in different shabads.

It all depends what kind of audience Gurus or Bhagats had at the time of recitation of Shabad. In one shabad, Guru Arjun Dev is calling Lord with name Govind (name of Vishnu's avatar Karishna, literally meaning cow herder), and in other shabad, Guru Arjun Dev is saying that Lord created millions of Vishnus. On other places, Vishnu is one of the Hindu trinity. Why?

For Saivites, Shiv is supreme being. Though name is taken from some old king, but it represents very similar to God from Mool Mantar.

For Vaishnavs, Vishnu is supreme being (creator and creation) and has number of avatars.

For Hindus, somehow these three different gods synthesized into trimurti and started representing three aspect of Lord i.e. creation, protection and destruction.

Though Allah was one of many Arabic dieties, still after Islam it started representing Almighty Lord. When Gurus said Allah, it was not pagan deity, but it was Almighty Lord.

So call Him Bisan, Allah, Govind, Gopal, Hari or any of the many names from Gurbani, Dhyan should be in Almighty, All prevading Lord mentioned in Mool Mantar.

This is from my limited knowledge. Please add something.

Singh Sahib 96 Krori Jathedar Baba Santa Singh Jee Akali has done a great service to the Sikh tradition by bringing this Granth out into the public and returning it to its rightful place, prakash alongside Adi Sri Guru Granth Saheeb Jee and Dasm Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Now we have three Granths side by side on Gurgaddi. Lucky us!

We need few more 96 Kroris to bring out more Granths from hiding. Soon we will have full set.

Bhagat Kabir on Ang 872

ਗੋਂਡ ॥ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰੇ ਨਾਹਿ ॥ ਆਵਤ ਪਹੀਆ ਖੂਧੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ॥ ਬਿਨੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਦੋਖੁ ॥੧॥ ਧਨੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਮਹਾ ਪਵੀਤ ॥ ਤਪੇ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਡੋਲੈ ਚੀਤ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਕੀ ਪੂਤੀ ॥ ਸੇਵਕ ਤਜਿ ਜਗਤ ਸਿਉ ਸੂਤੀ ॥ ਸਾਧੂ ਕੈ ਠਾਢੀ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥ ਸਰਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਿ ॥੨॥

ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਹੈ ਅਤਿ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ॥ ਪਗ ਨੇਵਰ ਛਨਕ ਛਨਹਰੀ ॥ ਜਉ ਲਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਤਊ ਲਗੁ ਸੰਗੇ ॥ ਨਾਹਿ ਤ ਚਲੀ ਬੇਗਿ ਉਠਿ ਨੰਗੇ ॥੩॥ ਸੋਹਾਗਨਿ ਭਵਨ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੀਆ ॥ ਦਸ ਅਠ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਤੀਰਥ ਰਸ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਰ ਬੇਧੇ ॥ ਬਡੇ ਭੂਪਤਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਹੈ ਛੇਧੇ ॥੪॥

Who is this Sohagan, who has even Brahama, Vishnu and Mahesh as chelas? Three gunas are offsprings or qualities of Maya, not chelas.

Bhagat Kabir ji on Ang 480

ਆਸਾ ਇਕਤੁਕੇ ੪ ॥ਸਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਬਲੀਆ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਛਲੀਆ ॥੧॥ਮਾਰੁ ਮਾਰੁ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਜਲਿ ਪੈਠੀ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਡਸੀਅਲੇ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਡੀਠੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਕਿਆ ਕਹਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥ਜਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਤੇ ਆਨ ਛੂਛ ਨਹੀ ਅਵਰਾ ॥ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਜੀਤੀ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਜਮਰਾ ॥੩॥ ਇਹ ਸ੍ਰਪਨੀ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਈ ॥ਬਲੁ ਅਬਲੁ ਕਿਆ ਇਸ ਤੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥ਇਹ ਬਸਤੀ ਤਾ ਬਸਤ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਤਰੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੫॥੬॥੧੯॥

Who is this ਸਰਪਨੀ (in red)?

Who are the chelas (not offsprings of Maya but ਛਲੀਏ or ਮੋਹੇ ones)?

Who created this ਸਰਪਨੀ (in green)?