laalsingh

Just surrender to Waheguru's will. Understand we never had any chance of free will. We are actors in this drama of life, not players in this game of life. Players have choice, but actors in a drama not. Remember Waheguru every breathing moment. Ignorance, greed, ego, envy, etc will disappear.

***These are notes to self too. If Lord wishes I can do it too.***

A beautiful shabad from Guru Nanak from panna 475.

ਪਉੜੀ ॥

Pauree:

ਵਡੇ ਕੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥

The description of the greatness of the Great Lord cannot be described.

ਸੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੀਮੁ ਦੇ ਜੀਆ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸੰਬਾਹਿ ॥

He is the Creator, all-powerful and benevolent; He gives sustenance to all beings.

ਸਾਈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਧੁਰਿ ਛੋਡੀ ਤਿੰਨੈ ਪਾਇ ॥

The mortal does that work, which has been pre-destined from the very beginning.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੀ ਬਾਹਰੀ ਹੋਰ ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ ॥

O Nanak, except for the One Lord, there is no other place at all.

ਸੋ ਕਰੇ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥੨੪॥੧॥ ਸੁਧੁ

He does whatever He wills. ||24||1|| Sudh||

T Kaur ji,

As you said, according to His law nature is at work. Think again, these laws of nature are at work for planets, moons, living beings, particles of dust and even for smallest particles in the universe. Even cells in our brain follow laws of nature.

Just think about universe at any given time. Now take into consideration absolute laws of nature. So you think next moment in universe after taking into consideration absolute laws of nature has possibility of more than one outcome? I don't think so. There is only one possible outcome in next moment.

Things in present can't be changed. Laws of nature can't be changed. So how can we change next moment.

Yes, we can have illusion of free will. But not outside His hukum. We found perfect Guru, just because Lord planned it. Gurus told us past misdeeds can be overcome with naam. But it will happen if Lord has planned for it.

Guru Nanak said it well in last line of first pauri of Japji.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥

O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1|

Keyword here is 'Hukum'.

If we have found Guru like Guru Nanak, it is still with Lord's hukum. We never had any choice or will of our own.

More in detail later.

So you say Lord left us to decide which path to chose?

Just think about it for a minute. In your whole life, did you ever make any independent decision?

Every decision we make is determined by factors already in place like genetics, upbringing, surroundings, recent happenings etc. Every action including our decisions are result of previous actions or factors. There is no free will, only His will.

If one decide to follow sikhism, it must be influenced by company, his way of thinking and some other factors. Similarly company we keep is also result of sequence of events set in motion long before we are born. Our way of thinking too can never be totally free. Our DNA, past experiences, our current mood and many other factors determine the decision we reach at. How you say predestiny has no stance in sikhi?

ਪੰਨਾ 13, ਸਤਰ 9

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਤ ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਿਵ ਮੰਡਲ ਮੰਡਾ ਹੇ ॥੧॥

By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. ||1||

ਪੰਨਾ 27, ਸਤਰ 8

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਮਾਵਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੩॥

They act according to their pre-ordained destiny, which no one can erase. ||3||

ਪੰਨਾ 27, ਸਤਰ 10

ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਆਇ ॥੪॥

Those who have such pre-ordained destiny come to meet the True Guru. ||4||

ਪੰਨਾ 43, ਸਤਰ 10

ਜੇ ਹੋਵੀ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਬਚਨੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

If you are so pre-destined, then act according to the Guru's Teachings. ||1||Pause||

ਪੰਨਾ 44, ਸਤਰ 8

ਜਿਸ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਗਹੇ ॥੨॥

Those who have such pre-ordained destiny hold tight to the Feet of the True Guru. ||2||

We are only upto panna 44. So how you say predestination has no stance in sikhi. Sikhi is wholly about predestination. Nobody is damned or preferred in Lord's eyes. Me or nobody has any idea how He works.

How can we define sin or good deed?

You could be born in one of hannibal tribes in South America in 18th century and eating humans alongwith your tribemates. You could be born in muslim family and think drinking alcohol is big sin but killing infidels is not. Some people would not mind flying planes into buildings and would consider it an act worthy of so-called heaven.

How you define pain and enjoyment?

If somebody is born blind, does he realize pain of not having eyesight? A journey in economy class for a billionaire would be more painful than ride on a scooter for slum dweller.

so you think you have a choice/free will?

Here are some points I am fully convinced of.

1. In the universe, every action must have a reaction. What we do, we must have to face the consequences.

2. Everything is pre-destined. With His hukam, we cry, we laugh, we do bad things, we do good deeds, we enjoy, we suffer. With His hukam, anybody can be born with some bad qualities and with His hukam, he can behave saintly.

3. Should we fear for our future? I don't think so. But still whatever we do, must get it back. Do we control our actions? I don't think so.

4. Gurbani has mentioned reincarnation so many times. Reincarnation seem to answer all the questions about 'what we sow we reap'.

Now question is how does this happen? I am just curious.

Is it just possible that no soul exists. When our bodies are burnt or buried in earth, it is back to ashes. Maybe same matter will start a new life somehow. But only way to Lord is only when we are in human form as only humans are able to reach final stage of enlightenment.

Just thoughts!

and yes, it has made me a hard determinist.

ਬੁਰਾ ਭਲਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਗਲੇ ਜੀਅ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Tell me, who should I call good or bad, since all beings are Yours? ||1||Pause||

Panna 383

Isn't this Pashaura Singh same guy who was called on Akal Takhat for punishment?

If a person becomes Vaheguru as Advait Vedant claims, then do our Brahmgianis(including Gurus) merge and become one with Vaheguru and therefor no longer exist?

but Waheguru exists everywhere and at every fraction of time. So when Brahmgianis merge with Lord, they are part of Him and their hondh is always there with Lord. Their hondh is more than us mortals.

Can a jeev become god of the universe?

Does the jeev mirror god in his own body therefore becoming a likeness of god?

Does the jeev become god in his own body and therefore become one with god?

But there is only one God and name of the city mentioned is stage of enlightenment. If a jeev reach that stage even in jeev's body, it becomes one with Almighty God. As last line in followed shabad says,"Nanak's God is pervading and permeating everywhere; wherever he looks, He is there."

ਗੂਜਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਊ ਬੂਝਨਹਾਰੋ ਜਾਨੈ ਕਵਨੁ ਭਤਾ ॥

ਸਿਵ ਬਿਰੰਚਿ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਮੋਨਿ ਜਨ ਗਹਿ ਨ ਸਕਾਹਿ ਗਤਾ ॥੧॥

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਅਗਮ ਅਗਾਧਿ ਕਥਾ ॥

ਸੁਨੀਐ ਅਵਰ ਅਵਰ ਬਿਧਿ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਬਕਨ ਕਥਨ ਰਹਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਆਪੇ ਭਗਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਤਾ ॥

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਹੈ ਪੇਖਿਓ ਜਤ੍ਰ ਕਤਾ ॥੨॥੨॥੧੧॥

Panna 498

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Laa Singh, could you please advise who is being refered to here then?

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥

ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥

Yes, he has been refered for indirectly atleast one more time I know.

Shaheediyan, I have a question?

Why in over 1400 hundred of pannas of SGGS we never hear name Mohamad even once (while addressing muslims, he has been refered indirectly more than one time though)?

SGGS contains bani from many muslims. Why not any writing of Mohamad? Does that mean Gurus never thought Koran's writings are as per Gurmat?

I don't know the answer. Share your thoughts with me.

Lall singh you didn't answer my 'specific' question.

I gave you instances from SGGS, where it speaks to yogis, vaishnavs, pundits and muslims. This is one of those instances.

SGGS is telling muslims to stay muslims and emphasizes upon accepting His Hukam. SGGS speaks to various sects and everytime it states that His Hukam and Naam should be above rituals. That makes SGGS universal and appealing to every human irrespective of ethnity or religion.

Still there is no mention of 'Mohamad'.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

[quote="laalsingh

Still I could not find any refrence about Mohamad in Dasam Granth. Are you talking about Mahadin in Bachitar Natak? Or somewhere else? As a sikh we should be aware what our masters said about other religous figures. Please let me know.

Another thing, did you say [highlight=red:9a7d083f4d]Satgur[/highlight:9a7d083f4d] Dasam Granth?

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Yes i did say Satgur Dasam Granth, Koi bimaari?

Yes i did say Satgur Dasam Granth, Koi bimaari?

Gurmukho, Thank you for wishing me well. I wish you good health.

Laal Singh, you asked/wrote:

"Do you really want me post this erotic story?"

I think we are all adults here, so why not - please bring forward your sources.

"You don't hear word 'context' with Buddha and Jesus's life histories that much"

This doesn't nullify the need for putting things in context! I can find numerous shabds (From the Sri Guru Granth Sahib) for you which will make items of Rehit such as keeping Kesh, giving Daswand, wearing kakkars etc seem unnecessary and even 'anti-Sikhi" yet you will be the first to argue for keeping things in context. I fail to understand the rationale behind your statement.

Yes, things need to be seen in context to understand full meaning. But some people starts using this excuse for every misdeed of their prophets.

What I understood from Gurbani is rituals should never get preference over Lord's naam. Lot of sangat go to Gurudwara, take off shoes, wash hands, look around if any of friend/relatives is there, bow in front of SGGS, go to langar, chat with somebody and then come back home. Do they hear any word from SGGS? If they miss Shabad Guru, then we are just lost in rituals.

I may be wrong and I wish I am wrong.

Bhul chuk Maaf.

Laal Singh, what are your thoughts on the following reference to Mohammed Sahib and Muslims:

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥

ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥

ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

Gurujit telling Vashnave how to be real vashnav (pg 272)

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥ ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥ ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥ ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥ ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

Guruji telling muslims how to be real muslim. (pg 141)

ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵਣੁ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਜਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥

ਅਵਲਿ ਅਉਲਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਮਸਕਲ ਮਾਨਾ ਮਾਲੁ ਮੁਸਾਵੈ ॥

ਹੋਇ ਮੁਸਲਿਮੁ ਦੀਨ ਮੁਹਾਣੈ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਚੁਕਾਵੈ ॥

ਰਬ ਕੀ ਰਜਾਇ ਮੰਨੇ ਸਿਰ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਵੈ ॥

ਤਉ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਆ ਮਿਹਰੰਮਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

Guruji telling Pandit how to be real Pandit.(pg 274)

ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਜੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਰਬੋਧੈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਆਤਮ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਧੈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਰੁ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਵੈ ॥ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕੈ ਉਪਦੇਸਿ ਜਗੁ ਜੀਵੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਾਵੈ ॥ ਸੋ ਪੰਡਿਤੁ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਮੂਲ ॥ ਸੂਖਮ ਮਹਿ ਜਾਨੈ ਅਸਥੂਲੁ ॥ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਦੇ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਉਸੁ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਕਉ ਸਦਾ ਅਦੇਸੁ ॥੪॥

Guruji telling Yogis how to be real Yogi (Pg 908)

ਸਰਮੈ ਦੀਆ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਕੰਨੀ ਪਾਇ ਜੋਗੀ ਖਿੰਥਾ ਕਰਿ ਤੂ ਦਇਆ ॥ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ਲਾਇ ਜੋਗੀ ਤਾ ਤੀਨਿ ਭਵਣ ਜਿਣਿ ਲਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਐਸੀ ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ ਵਜਾਇ ਜੋਗੀ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ ਅਨਹਦੁ ਵਾਜੈ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਸਤੁ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਪਤੁ ਕਰਿ ਝੋਲੀ ਜੋਗੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਭੁਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਧਿਆਨ ਕਾ ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਸਿੰਙੀ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਜਾਈ ॥੨॥ ਮਨੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣਿ ਬੈਸੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਤਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਕਲਪਣਾ ਜਾਈ ॥ ਕਾਇਆ ਨਗਰੀ ਮਹਿ ਮੰਗਣਿ ਚੜਹਿ ਜੋਗੀ ਤਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਈ ॥੩॥ ਇਤੁ ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਨਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਇਤੁ ਕਿੰਗੁਰੀ ਸਾਂਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜੋਗੀ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ਨ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥ ਭਉ ਭਾਉ ਦੁਇ ਪਤ ਲਾਇ ਜੋਗੀ ਇਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਡੰਡੀ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਤਾ ਤੰਤੀ ਵਾਜੈ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਖੰਡੀ ॥੫॥ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੁਝੈ ਸੋ ਜੋਗੀ ਕਹੀਐ ਏਕਸ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਏ ॥ਸਹਸਾ ਤੂਟੈ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਇਵ ਪਾਏ ॥੬॥

maybe she wasnt sikh in the first place?

No. She was not a sikh, but she was only born in a sikh background family. A sikh will never leave path shown by Gurus for any religion or cult with false promises for heaven or blackmailing threats of hell.

It is possible sombeody is born in sikh family but propaganda, false information or peer pressure can make lot of weak people make wrong decisions.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

some points.

1. maybe she wanted to hurt parents and she did succeed.

2. she is getting so much attention and respect from muslims, the day showed interst in islam. No way, she would never want it to stop.

3. Here is a somebody (we can't see her face) wrapped in black clothes, talking about leaving sikhi, unpopularity of islam in sikh households, greatness of islam. It is one of many tricks to convey message to other non-muslims that all the talk against islam is a lie and everybody should follow this girl's path.

Whenever they show a conversion video in their effort to prove superiority of islam, it only widens the gap between muslims and non-muslims. Islam has nothing which other religions dont have. It is only their aggressivenss for new recruits which is bringing some new converts.

laalsingh bach ke reh sin is heavy in your palla with these blasphemous remarks! BTW Satguru Gobind Singh Ji makes many references to the Respected PROPHET Muhhamad, in Satgur Dasam Granth Sahib. And if you question Satguru Dasam Granth then a question mark will be blatantly seen over your remarks and scholarly authenticity.

From now onward am not posting anything negative about any figure respected by other communities. If moderators find it insulting in previous posts, they can remove it. I was just responding to some statements about sufis' bani in SGGS. I think SGGS again shows us way here, "Dont say anything about controversial figures which are respected by other communities."

Still I could not find any refrence about Mohamad in Dasam Granth. Are you talking about Mahadin in Bachitar Natak? Or somewhere else? As a sikh we should be aware what our masters said about other religous figures. Please let me know.

Another thing, did you say [highlight=red:22d5d1fb1e]Satgur[/highlight:22d5d1fb1e] Dasam Granth?

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Niranjana said in bold letters

Please could you show where Krishna "raped" anyone and what you understand by the term "Leela"?

Do you really want me post this erotic story? I will just give hint that as krishna has to make night 6 months long to stay long with that lady.

There is punjabi saying ,"hum karen to paap,krishan kare to leela". Meaning when Krishna do, it is called his leela (game), but if we do it, it is called sin (it is said sarcastically).

What is wrong with 'contexts'? Your posts do not appear to make your issue with taking things into context clear?

There is nothing wrong about contexts. But it is muslim scholars' biggest excuse for defending quran and everything of questionable nature done by Mohamad. You don't hear word 'context' with Buddha and Jesus's life histories that much.

Also, what is the problem with Guru Gobind Singh, Guru Har Rai and Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee have more than one wife?

Nobody here said we have any problem with Gurujis having more than one wife. What I am saying as a sikh, Guru sahib gave us permission to question. I mentioned Samadh sakhi not for islam but just to prove point that Guruji wanted sikhs to question, not become a zombie like some other religions.

Bhul chuk maaf.

amardeep said in bold

yeah and so what if they give importance to the body, while we give importance to the soul?

I already posted salok from asa di var telling why they are wrong in hoping bodies will gather on judgement day?

We give importance to banis while they give importance to namaz.. is there anything wrong in that?

When did I say praying to Lord is wrong?

Or maybe Guru Maharaj is esotericin the exoteric aspects of Islam in order to help them grow spiritually? Maybe maharaj is helping them move to the second level of religion?

Sikhism is not a sect of any other religion.

is there room for "Guru Gobind Singh being the last human Guru then" ? if so, then why is there no room for Muhamad as the last messenger of the abrahamic line of prophets?

Guru Gobind Singh was tenth master and he gave gurgadi to SGGS. How can we compare mohamad to tenth master?

Do you think the Gurus regarded Islam as a false religion?

As per my little knowledge they never said islam is true or false religion literally. But also there is no mention of many other religions and cults. So why we should accept all of them as true? Only mention of islam in SGGS is the condemnation of islamic practices.

do you belive Muhammad was a prophet of God?

I don't believe Mohamad was a prophet. There is not mention of Mohamad in SGGS. If SGGS doesn't say anything about Mohamad, why we should believe him as a prophet.

Do you belive in the Quran as a book from God?

if yes, do you belive the present form of the Quran is the one sent down from God, or do you belive that it has been alterede and rewritten throughout history..

Lord does't have to send messages through flying angels.

ਸਮਝੈ ਸੂਝੈ ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਬੂਝੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ॥

If one understands, realizes and comprehends what he reads and studies, in the end he shall realize that the True Lord dwells deep within his nucleus.

If you or muslims believe quran as last and complete message from Him, let them.I don't.

That doesn't mean I disrespect muslims friends. Some of them I have seen are living a life even more pious than Mohamad.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Laal singh

Reason for asking my question was for new sikhs. For new sikhs going for 5Ks right away will be overwhelming, particularly who is used to western life style. Before going for khalsa, should not he be sikh (learner) first and then khalsa (when he is ready)?

Can anybody sugget difference between sikh and khalsa? If any non sikh starts reading SGGS and believing in it (he is not aware of rehatnama and Dasam Granth), would he be sikh? Does he has to carry 5Ks? Does he need to get baptize to become a sikh? Where is the line between sikh and khalsa?

laal singh

amardeep you said (Bold letters)

What is Guru Maharaj stating here? That people should'n bury dead corpses because they are spread all over? Are you familiar with the Quran verse "Dont they think We are able to collect their bones once again?"

The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses, it has to do with other deep issues of worship and people thinking that they should worship graves etc because they assume the dead men are still down there.

I don't think it can be said better and clearer than Guruji said it. Guru Saheb specifically used the word 'musalmaan' here. Musalmaans give importance to their body after death hoping for Day of Resurrection. History has it even Aurangzeb tried to influence Gurus to change it (Read story of baba ram rai). For a sikh body after death is just ashes, nothing more. Importance is given to soul and your deeds while alive.

The shabad is not saying that people should'n bury dead corpses

Yes, nothing is wrong in burying the body (it is just ashes), but don't hope for it to rise up any day. Same can be seen in Baba Farid's saloks I am reposting here.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥

Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਜੁਗ ਵਾਪਰੇ ਇਕਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੬੭॥

Countless ages will pass, and you will still be lying on one side. ||67||

That's exactly what Master is trying to say.There is no place in Gurmat for `Day of Resurrection`and `Mohamad being last messenger of God`. It is not muslim bashing as you commented earlier. We are discussing place of Islamic beliefs in Sikhsim.

Back then it was normal to circumsice people as an act of commitment to Islam, but the invaders started to do it by force, so kabeer is saying that you do not become muslim by outer apperance only. and then goes on to say "what books have you read this in" because Quran does not sanctify external worship alone, but also internal..

What is this practice (sunnat) for body pleasure doing in God's religion? If you want to be a good muslim, sikhism offers better alternatives here without cutting your body,

ਪੰਨਾ 140, ਸਤਰ 18

ਸਰਮ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਰੋਜਾ ਹੋਹੁ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ॥

Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.

ਤਸਬੀ ਯਾਦਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਦਸ ਮਰਦਨੁ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਸੀਲੁ ਬੰਧਾਨਿ ਬਰਾ ॥੭॥

Let your meditation beads be the subjugation of the ten senses. Let good conduct and self-restraint be your circumcision. ||7||

Muslims have another way of practice different fro ours, but this does not mean that what they are doing is wrong as such..

In all the three shabads, we are talking about `muslim practises' and SGGS's view on these practices.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Laal singh