Manbir

Outh Poth Sevak Sang Raata.. Raag Maajh

ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਸੇਵਕ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ..ਰਾਗ ਮਾਝ

Sung in Raag Maajh

http://gurmatgiangroup.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/outh-poth-sevak-sang-raata-raag-maajh/

http://gurmatgiangroup.wordpress.com/2010/10/23/outh-poth-sevak-sang-raata-raag-maajh/

Sikhs are too fond of veered logics. It only shows to the world the intellectual bankruptcy !

Hold on Bro. You're getting confused over my reply. In response to someone's questiuon about there being no teachings of the Hindu gods, I said that the Vedas is the first source of knowledge in this world. I didnt say it was the only knowledge. It came 3 yugs before Gurbani, hence making it an earlier source of knowledge. Why do you have to accept the authority of the vedas, if you acknowledge its existence? I accept it's existence, but certainly not it's authority over Gurbani.

Gurmat/sikhi is the youngest religion in the world, all other books or sources of knowledge gita, bible etc came before Gurbani, but we dont accept their authority over Gurbani.

You are right Chatanga1 Ji. All religious books in this world are source of knowledge. Sikhs are lucky to have the latest source of knowledge in the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. And for us SGGS is the ultimate religious authority everything else is just a reading material.

The problem is not illogical rahits/teachings -although this could be in a few places where people think they are more syaana then Maharaj, and consequently change the rahit to make it make more sense only to have it become a practice without a root!

The problem is twofold, kathakars need to live the lifestyle. If they live it, their words will come from the heart and have greater power.

The second is that they need deep understanding of the teachings AND be able to communicate it to the audience. The deeper level of understanding is rare, but certainly does exist. The rarity of this deeper understanding is shown in how often those who teach this deeper knowledge of Gurbani are attacked for their teachings.

Rightly said Xylitol Ji. We need to live a life of Guru's Sikh. Only then would we have impact on our young ones. We feel that by just having long flowing beard and with all Kakars visible we prove to the world that we are great GurSikhs. We have to live a lifestyle as per Gurbani only then our children would find our sayings logical.

I have first hand experience with young one in Punjab villages. They clearly have contempt for Amritdhari Sikhs. Its really surprising that the youth of Punjab have a very low regard for Sikh traditions. I assure you if you take a survey in rural Punjab you'll be surprised of the findings.

Gurdwara system should be changed in this present situation. People should stop donating for new buildings and instead donate for the Sikh literature and comparative studies. They should spend money on providing their childern good Gurbani Santhiya. The time is becoming very scientific and with time our traditions may look absurd to new generations. They will have Muslim fundamentalist, Hindu extremists, Sikh communist, Government agencies propaganda and Christian missionary to allure/confuse them. It is must, if we want to keep our children on Sikhism path, that we devote our time and money on comparative studies.

Have we ever seen a farmer just going to field and throwing seeds in the hope to have a good crop? Farmers put so much effort in preparing field/farm before seeding, so they can have a good crop. This same analogy applies to Sikhism. If we want to have good Sikh generation with strong Sikh values then we have to prepare them very well. We have to work on core beliefs and support intellectuals.

You have rightly said. We need to change our priorities if we want our children to keep being in Sikhi. We should stop making Gurdwaras and change the illogical maryadas we have developed. We need to introduce our children to Gurbani and make them develop Love with Guru's Bani. The young generation is cheesed off with illogical teachings introduced by our parcharaks.

might not have anything to do with sikh'ism', but sure does have something to do with sikhi

The Religion of Hindus is Hindu Mythology. They have no Bani or any teachings of their pagambars. Mythological Stories are what they have to read and revere. But we Sikhs are lucky to have Gurbani to follow. Why some Sikhs want to follow Hindu mythology and continue to call themselves as Guru Ke Sikhs !! Beyond common sense !

Durga led an army of the defeated Devtas of Swarg against the Rakshas army. The Devi was so powerful that the Devtas only won because of her, otherwise they could never have defeated the powerful Rakshas army on their own. No Nihangs were there, this would be mere wishful thinking on the part of some modern Nihangs. Sikhs believe in Ithihas not mythology. We have real recorded ithihas which is the most glorious and heroic in the world. We don't need to make up fictitious stories of Nihangs/Singhs/Sikhs being in any battle prior to the advent of Guru Nanak Dev Jee in this world.

All this is Hindu mythology. Nothing to do with Sikhism. These stories are for weak minded people, not Sikhs. Guru Nanak's Sikhism has has nothing to do with Chandi. Those who believe in these stories of chandi and other stuff are getting assimilated into Hinduism.

This is the reason why RSS says that Sikhs are a part of Hinduism because our so called 'Bhramgianees' of Deras are worshipers of Chandi and they believe that Guru Gobind Singh Ji worshiped Durga !!

Where does the Guru says that you have to obey the Guru?

Guru does not need us. We need Him. Its up to us, to obey Him or not. Not to worry, He certainly is not going to punish us for disobeying Him. He is always merciful.

mod note:

Precedent for Takht Sahib's superiority is clear and well established. If you wish, Feel free to provide proof for your statement using references to historical sources in a new thread..

Is Akal Takht our Guru? or is it Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ? The argument is already settled! There can be no two opinions on this.

We have to only obey our Guru. Period.

Akaal Takht was created by the 6th Guru and two bhramgyani Sikhs. The takht itself is the platform on which the present Gurdwara stands. Despite all the disasters and attacks over the centuries, this Takht has always stood intact.

The organisational aspects were somewhat different in the post Guru period, as jathedars were made jathedar for life. But the jathedars did have the power of excommunication to enforce dharm. Maharaja Ranjit Singh himself was once almost excommunicated by the jathedar.

Anyways, I'm just responding to you, if you wish to discuss this, feel free to open up a new thread. My apologies for taking the thread off topic.

No where in Guru's philosophy is mentioned that we Sikhs have to dance to the tunes of some individual who happens to be some care taker of some Gurudawara. We need not waste our energy on such useless things which would take us no where. Just reread Sikh history from Guru Nanak onwards and see where this so called Takht stands. Its high time we get rid of such institutions which would land our community to bigger mess. See it where its heading. Just imagine a scenario when a person takes over this institution and declares anything that goes against our basics, like we have no need for Keshas !! What would we do? Agree to it!! because " Akal Takhat Mahan Hai". There is a limit to fooling oneself. In every religion the institutions have failed them. You do not know who would control the institution when and how.

Just see the far sightedness of our Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji. His level of thinking was far different than any normal human being. To make things better for us and to avoid future complications He formally gave Guruship to Sri Guru Ganth Sahib Ji. Just imagine if it was not for His great vision we would be killing and eating each other alive.

there is no way to avoid money issues except for 1, raise everyone's jeevan, make it satyug; and 2, be completely transparent about finances. even then there are bound to be people who try to play the system, although it will be rarer. it's human nature. harsher penalties for playing the system would reduce the occurrence of this.

You are right, its very difficult to avoid the play of money. When we have majority of us tuned to Guru's teaching we can expect less problems but till then Rab Rakha.

Well there are two ways to run the gurdwara. One is through the committee and the other way is through mahant gaddi given by gurdev of respective samparda. Both have pros and cons. I cannot speak for India, but gurdwaras run through mahant are successful and peaceful in Canada because the head of samparda's oversees everything being run. Again, no system is perfect ultimately due to human greed. One possible solution is not to change anything in the committee or mahant structure but to have one independent, huge organization free from bias or any influence overseen by the gurdwara management abroad.

Here in Punjab, the deras are controlled by the person who has started it or is the most powerful among the inmates. After the head is no more the main chellas fight it out and form their own dera. So instead of one then there are say four deras after the demise of the head of one dera. This is the reason why these deras are mushrooming all over Punjab. And every Dera is headed by a Sant and he bestows himself big big titles and carries on with his business, infact the most flourishing business these days in India.

Greed is the basic instict of human beings that is in play everywhere.

Religious places are in fact the most flourishing setups whenever the society is going through a phase of economic upside. During this time people have more money in hand and their desires for more too is many folds. This phase keeps going for quite sometime. And then a stage comes when people get fed up of religious exploitations and then starts the decline in the business of religious institutions. See it for yourself, in developed countries the churches are for sale and Sikhs are purchasing them!

ok, and was this Chandi a sword or an 8-armed Lady riding on a tiger?

The DEVI is the "8-armed Lady riding on a tiger"

And to say that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did do Pargat of DEVI !!! God Save us !!

If we Sikhs have Mahapurkhs like these who say "MAHARAJ DASHMESH PATSHAH GURU GOBIND SINGH JI DID DO PARGAT OF DEVI AND THE REASON FOR THIS WAS FOR THE ANNIHILATION OF THE DEMONS THAT WERE PRESENT AT THE TIME."

We have a very Bleek Future !!!

I JUST CAME BACK FROM DOING DARSHAN OF A GURMUKH WHO WAS A STUDENT OF SANT GURBACHAN SINGH AND DAMDAMI TAKSAL. HIS NAME IS DYA SINGH AND HE FROM THE MIDLANDS AREA - WHEN BABA TAKUR SINGH MAHAPURKH MET THEM A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO BABA JI IMMEDIATELY RECOGNISED THEM AND GAVE THEM A SAROPA AS BAKHSHISH FOR THERE IMMENSE SEVA TO SOCIETY AND SIKH PANTH. ANYWAY I ASKED GIANI DYA SINGH ABOUT DEVI PARGAT AND SARBLOH GRANTH, BABA JI STATED THAT MAHARAJ DASHMESH PATSHAH GURU GOBIND SINGH JI DID DO PARGAT OF DEVI AND THE REASON FOR THIS WAS FOR THE ANNIHILATION OF THE DEMONS THAT WERE PRESENT AT THE TIME.

This happens if you read Nataks more and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji less !!

The Deras in Sikhs have polluted the minds of ordinary Sikhs to such a level that these days many Sikhs have more faith in Nataks and Dramas than the Pure Bani of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Just see the state of mind of a Student of 'Sant Gurbanchan Singh of Damdami Taksal'. Nothing surprising. The students in the Deras ultimately end up being disciple of the so called 'Sant' than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

This problem is like an epidemic in Punjab.

But the 6th Guru did give us the Akaal Takth and all the organisation that it brings to our kaum.

No certainly NOT. You are absolutely wrong. "Our 6th Guru DID NOT give Akal Takht and all the organisation that it brings to our kaum" Read it carefully what you have mentioned !!

Do you really think so that our Guru gave us the Akal Takht that we have it. Think over with clear mind, you'll get the answer.

lol if darsho rly feels we should read ourselves and decide, why is he still doing parchar? if he is to remain true to his own words, perhaps he should take back every statement against Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, and then in the future, every time he is to speak on it, limit his talks to "read it yourself and decide" and nothing more.

Prof. Darshan Singh is not our Guru. We do not have to agree and obey his commands. Why should we give him that much importance. We should treat him like any other person. Why should we give his utterances so much 'respect'? Dont we have our own mind ? If he says something does it mean that we have to change ourselves according to his whims?

Our Gurus have taken us out of the slavery of the clergy. We do not have to live a life of the bonded laborers of priest class. If we want to live as slaves of our priests we are still Hindus. High time we realize that our Gurus freed us from the curse of the priest class. Why can't we leave the age old habits of Hindus. Come on use your brain, think yourself and decide what is wrong and and what is not right. Everyone is entitled to his views. Be it Darshan Singh or any other Singh. No one can stop me from reading Bachittar Natak or any other Natak. If I want to read Ramayan, Mahabharat or any other Natak its my wish.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Guruship to Sri Guru Granth Sahibs Ji. So, my Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Everything else is just a reading material, nothing more.

When one lies, one has to lie to hide that lie, and then lie to hide the lie that is hiding the 1st lie, and thus the motivation of false parchaar is revealed.

You are right. We can see all around us. All organized religions face same fate. They ultimately become pack of lies very craftly decorated by the thekadars of the religion.

Nobody is asking you to Manbir Singh Ji.

What I am asking you is that the very good advice the Prof Darshan gave to you, does he act opon it himself?

If he asked you to read it did, you ask him if he has sat down and read the whole granth from beginning to end to reach this conclusion?

Or did you just walk away thinking that you had actually got an answer to your excellent question?

Why should I ask him all this. He has to solve his problem. I am not his chella nor is he mine.

Ok. So you quoted this to Prof Darshan Singh and asked him why he felt he didnt need to learn more about DG?

I am not there to make Prof. Darshan Singh some learned person or make him forget what he has learned. Thats his problem. Everyone has to solve his problem. I do not want to act like a bunch of donkeys being lead by some Jathedars. I do not want to be part of the puppet show of illiterate bunch of Fools. For those who relish being part of 'Bher Bakri' its their luck.

God has given every human being gray cells in his brain. Some use it, some do not know they have them!

No one understands everything. One has to try to understand. For a Sikh, Sikhi is a spiritual journey in which we are to keep learning.

I would suggest to those who are all worked up against Prof. Darshan Singh to pause for a while and start introspecting with clear mind and heart. We all have same purpose ultimately. We want the Chandikalla of Sikhs all over.

On this issue of Dasam Garanth I asked Prof. Darshan Singh few questions. His one answer was Read it yourself and Decide.

I would say the same to everyone around.

No, it wasn't "Ragi Darshan Cronies Humbled At Anti Sikh Lehar Center,toronto"

In fact whole Sikh Community was Humbled !!

Shame on us. We have proved ourselves as most uncivilized Fools.

That is the reason we get kicked everywhere ! May be we deserve it.

Manage Gurdwaras anyway you like does not matter. If you want smooth running and avoid trouble - minimize the play of Money in the affairs of the Gurdwaras. That all.

All over the world Sikhs are having same problem in running the affairs of Gurdwaras.

Those Gurdwaras which have less collections have less problems.

Jichar eh Man Lehree Vich Hai..ਜਿਚਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਲਹਰੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ

Sung in Raag Sarang

http://gurmatgiangroup.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/jichar-eh-man-lehree-vich-hai/

Aab Hum Chalee Thakur Pay Haar .. ਅਬ ਹਮ ਚਲੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਪਹਿ ਹਾਰਿ

Sung in Raga Devgandhari

http://gurmatgiangroup.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/aab-hum-chalee-thakur-pay-haar/