Guru da Sikh
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Posts posted by Guru da Sikh
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I disagree.
I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it!
You do follow Sikhi Principles.
Guru ji never censored anybody or threatened them physical harm, which is so common here on this website. Mod's Edit
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A typical lie by so called misiionary nastic. This jaswinder singh agreed to debate the issue at akal takhat. Date and time was fixed. he never turned up and neither he had the courtesy to inform them that he was not coming.
Can you POST a Proof of that scheduled date and Invitation by Akal Takhat or something. Are you simply blowing some gas?
Are you saying he pulled ‘HARIA’ too?
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"Anything outside Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which is clearly proven to be according to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we can keep it as literature but not as writings of Guru Ji. This should answer all your questions."
So we should accept Jaap Sahib but not as writings of Guru Ji, even though we all know it was written by Guru Ji?
You are the most ignorant person, I have come across. IF you are a Sikh and do your ardaas, then don’t you say that ‘10 Patshahian di jot Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji’ and then you running off to claiming that Dasam Patshah has his ‘Bani’ somewhere else in a different Granth?
How can I be in 10 threads at once and answer to people just doing copy paste from all over the internet?
You are the one spamming every thread on this forum with your naastic views.
Khalsa Fauji didn’t start spamming it in various threads it’s your Admin dude who keeps on making excuses and splitting subject into various threads, forcing Fauji to do so!
I haven't even had time to sit with family over the past few days since I have been replying contantly.
Go and spend time with your family, no one wants you here - feelings which have been made very clear to you and your goon squad which has recently joined.
All Fauji wants to do is what Guru asked us to do and that is to look after our family responsibilities. May be you boys are too busy reading some ‘succulent ‘ writings to spend time with your families!
Like I said before, to eliminate this issue, live debate is the best. It won't as time consuming and no one can dodge questions.
The elite of sampradai scholars reside in India. Arrange for five or any number of your best scholars and I will arrange for 5 Gurmat gianis. Any topics can be discussed. Anywhere in Punjab you may select the location, I will personally take responsibility for this once you confirm a date and place. If you arent going to do this then stop hampering on about having a debate. Hasnt your group already been shown up several times in live debates?
First of all Samprada and Gurmat in same line! What smapradavaan did Guru ji started? NIRMAL (NOT NirmalA) Panth later became known as Khalsa Panth, one and the same. Did he start Baba Rare Wala Samprda? Did he start Nanaksariye Samprda? Did he start Taksal Samprda?
Take up Fauji on his offer and tell him the time & place. Make sure this time your boys don’t pull Haria ‘move’ on us!
Many of my questions haven't been answered either
You are not here to learn, and arent fooling anyone. You are trying to create doubts in the minds of others rather then clear your own. You have asked questions and references where answers can be found, you which you have been unwilling to check these references. You may be interested to know that knowledge exists outwith of Kala Afghana books.
Fauji can’t open the locks to your brain with Gurbani so I pray some ‘Sant from a Samprada’ comes along and will ‘blow into your ear’ and give you a mantar jaap and get to you started on human path!
Guys just keep posting quotes from GUru Granth Sahib Ji without understanding them.
Its pretty ignorant to suggest that anyone who understand Gurbani differently to you doesnt understand Gurbani. The same accusations can be made of you who uses random quotes from Gurbani and somehow try and relate them to kakkars - to which references can be found in both Dasam and Sarbloh Granth, as well as the rehatname and various other texts.
Gurbani takes days to translate.
Leave it to someone else, your clearly not up to the task sunshine. Wow so you guys do acknowledge that Gurbani does have antreev arths and that Prof Sahib Singhs work which relies primarily on viakaran is limited?
I don’t think you ever opened up the steek and read it. Because if you would have you would have definitely noticed the Bhav Arth title highlighted in Dark Blue on www. GuruGranthDarpan.com. So your logic doesn’t fly here sweetheart!
Don't expect me to given answers here.
Expect you to? On the contrary I beg maharaj you refrain from further polluting this forum with your
And you supporting pornographic writings, from a book seems to make it a family affair?
Especially when I have to reply to all sorts of posts. This is like a parade going on here. I answer 1 thread, there are 10 posts in another to answer.
Like i said, no one is asking you to post here.
I guess in you boys mind One Fauji against 10 Pro Dasam Granth pets to be a fair & neutral debate. Does follow teachings of Dasam Granth, where when ‘devtas’ (you) sense a challenge by ‘rakshaks’ (us) they run to their ‘Vishnu’ (admin, N30). You do follow Dasam Granth from heart, don’t you!
My final post in this thread, bring proper live debate.
AGAIN, Like I said in India, you name the time and place and bring who you want. Neutral cameramen and the whole debate will go on the internet and tv channels etc.
Again let us know when & where in India your so called scholar boys want to debate Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji’s Sikhs and I will personally make sure that Rozana Spoeksman will arrange a neutral location for an online live debate. Just check with Neo dude to make sure no more excuses about funds, work etc. Talk is cheap, back up your words with some action.
Cant believe I wasted any more time on you.
By the way, Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala is taking a Western Canadian tour early next week. You boys feel like having a LIVE debate in Vancouver. No Funding & Crappy Excuses this time please! Let me know, and I will email to him so that you guys can get your local ‘scholars’ ready and give them a pep talk, if you have any!
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The Khalsa Fauji,
It seems like you are fatigued, need a break from all this discussion ? Understandable. Just let us know whenever you are ready. However, i just wanted to remind, it was your friend- Guru Da Sikh who came on this forum start challenging core beliefs of gurmat sidhant- Sri Dasam Granth sahib, Bhai Gurdas Ji Varan and you came along with this joined the party after clarifying that you were not Guru Da Sikh to Mithar. All of this seems some what fishy, seemed like well planned orchestrated mission to come on the forum start engaging in guerrilla debate.People don’t get fatigued when there is an intelligent debate or discussion and both sides have open mind. I can understand Khalsa Fauji’s frustration for this only one way flow of knowledge (from him to forum). I only came to know about this GURSIKH when somebody on this forum accused me & him being same individual under a different user name. Your association of him with me as a friend is absolutely true, when you view in light of Gurbani Gyan. We both respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, we both spend time to seek Guru`s Gyan. SO we are Sikhs of the same Complete Guru, hence Bhai too!
His intention has been to present complete explanations backed by Shabads from Gurbani. On the other hand your Pro Dasam Granth lobby (PDGL) has simply questions, no answers, no intention to learn, and a BIASED administrator who still has not posted all my responses, and whatever has been posted majority of that only with MOD EDITS and a few without any mention of these MOD EDITS too!
MOD NOTE: I have looked at your posts, all were allowed save one so far, and edits were for going off topic or other forum rule violations. If you have problems with moderation, take it over PM.
I will continue to present Guru’s shabad Gyan on this website without necessarily having to answer questions from some of you with unwillingness to learn at all.
Again Khalsa Fauji ji, keep up the seva to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It doesn’t have to be necessarily on this anti-Gurmat website. There are lots of people with open minds willing to listen and follow Guru ji’s Bani.
When I see the so called debate on this website, only one scene comes to mind. And that is, a Grand Father (Khalsa Fauji) in a candy store (this website) holding on to his LITTLE grandkids (PDGL) by a finger and walking them through the store. The little kids have lots of questions and temptations for everything followed by ONE LINER questions. The wise grandfather answers in detail every question and eventually realizing after spending majority of the day in the store, that these kids are only interested in ‘luscious’ candies and NOT the knowledge from his answers so he decides to........
SO I don’t know if you can classify this debate as Guerrilla Debate, I think it most fitting from our side to classify this as Debate with Guerrillas!
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//Does that imply you believe - jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie, chaupie sahib were kachi bani (god forbid) since they were outside of sri guru granth sahib maharaj ? //
//Guru da Sikh you wrote:
I stated my position in an earlier post, that out of respect, I do NOT oppose the Rehat Meryada. And these three are included in that.
If you consider yourself a Sikh and claim that you get the Atmik Gyan from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, has the Guru NOT answered your question in the same lines! //
I couldn't find your previous post, its a simple question as per your belief not because out of respect but as your core belief - do you believe- jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie and chaupia sahib to be kache bani?? as you believe that anything outside sri guru granth sahib is kachi bani by quoting stanza from anand sahib ??
A GurSikh’s CORE beliefs are based on Gurmat because he / she has RESPECT for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I still stand by my statement that I do not OPPOSE these writings out of my respect for the approved Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takhat.
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"A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurban"
Your use of the semetic term soul is incorrect in defining Jyot. Soul is semetic term inferring a state of permanent existence seperate from the creator. Sikhi marg believes a Gurmukh becomes one with his creator.
Jyot refers to light - this light which was passed from Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Guru Angad Dev Ji was that of perfect knowldge i.e. truth. It was the light which made Guru Angad Dev Jis face reflect the whole glory of Parmatma (as perceivable by us).
This perfect state or light was blessed on the proceeding 8 Guru Sahiban.
ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਚੰਦੁ ਜਗਤ ਭਯੋ ਆਨੰਦੁ ਤਾਰਨਿ ਮਨੁਖ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜਨ ਕੀਅਉ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਦੀਅਉ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਅਕਥ ਕਥਾ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਪੰਚ ਭੂਤ ਬਸਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਜਮਤ ਨ ਤ੍ਰਾਸ ॥
Did the light disappear for the 9th time, why only for 8 times? Wasn’t the same jot in Dasam Patshah?
If you mean 8 times starting from Guru Angand Dev ji, did Guru Gobind Singh ji NOT get the same Perfect Knowledge?
If he did, then why need an additional Granth? Wouldn’t his teachings be in line with and using the same Nanak ‘stamp‘ as by the remaining Patshahian?
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"sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false. Does that still leave you room for other literature to seek knowledge? You said Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE then what is it that you are looking for in literature outside of a COMPLETE SATGURU?"
Does that mean that you will not be sending your children to school then i.e. they may have to read Romeo and Juliette as part of their English Literature module, I suppose that would be AN-TIE Gurmat....
Yes, I would stop them from going to school, IF THE SCHOOL WAS GOING TO ASK MY KIDS TO READ ROMEO & JULIET WRITTEN IN A PORNOGRAPHIC LANGUAGE!
May be you haven’t noticed, next door in Alberta, they just passed a legislation to give parents an option to pull their kids from classes where if any religious or sexual education conflicts with the Parents’ belief!
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" At least Jeonwala had sack to debate about topic suggested by Hari Singh."
i believe these were questions written by Kala Afgana in the Rozana paper which Baba Hari SIngh answere and not the other way around
Are you aware of why the debate on the Dasam Granth never took place, have you spoke to Prof Darshan Singh or Baba Hari SIngh Ji about it? I have, both state they did not take part in the debate due to Vedanti's Hukamnama not to debate on thsi topic.
Why are you making up stories anyway? Why not phone up Bhai Tehal Singh, President of the Gurdwara where this discussion / debate was going to be held, and he will tell you the TRUTH. He was the one who arranged for this to happen and was going to monitor it. He was the one who got up and asked Hari Singh to come back and join the discussion. He was the one who got up on the stage and denounced Hari Singh for stating the Jeonwala was not up to his level.
I might not accept the Hukam of Akaal Takhat being the manmukh i am but both of these did, which says alot about Jeonwala.
Neo - go through the thread and take out what is not relevant to the topic initially started, please!
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So called Khalsa ji, you may have 'akll', but I don't have any akll, only His.
You get hyper whenever your ego hurts a little and starts calling names. I don't mind being called bhayaa or kaala or chura or whatever you want.
And since when 'maata' is masculine? You call her ਮੇਰਾ ਜਾਂ ਮੇਰੀ, it doesn't matter.
ਪੰਨਾ 74, ਸਤਰ 5
ਬੋਲਾਇਆ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦਾ ॥
Is ਬੋਲੀ masculine? but still called ਦਾ. As per your definition, what were Gurus then? As per you, shouldn't it be ਬੋਲਾਈ ਬੋਲੀ ਖਸਮ ਦੀ?
What about ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ?
ਜੇ ਏਹ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸਾਚੀ ਹੈ ਤਉ ਗੜ੍ਹਣਹਾਰੇ ਖਾਉ ॥੩॥ Panna 479
Isn't ਮੂਰਤਿ faminine in this tuk?
ਪੰਨਾ 596, ਸਤਰ 13
ਸਗਲ ਭਵਣ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਏਕਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਟਕਸਾਲਾ ॥੧॥ Panna 596
Yours is the one and only form of the entire universe; Your mouth is the mint to fashion all. ||1||
Bayeee ji, Devaala tan niklya hoya !
Bayee Laal Sian, thora bahut par tan lea kar, evenhe kuji vichon banta chak ke bhaj pena ate kehan lag pena key heera labh leya! Anvain saaryan da tam kharaab kari jana
Please read Prof. Sahib Singh ji’s analysis and you would have never made this claim.
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Any reference for that?
Read below to know your other answers
Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib - Prof Piara Singh Padam
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Authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib
Prof. Piara Singh Padam
Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the tenth heir of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, possessed great qualities of a warrior and a poet. He used the might of sword and pen equally to bring a revolution in lives of common people. Without a match, he was the ideal Guru, poet and a warrior. The 'Khande-Dhaar' Bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so powerful that it possesses powers to turn water into Amrit and make volcanoes erupt from lifeless soil to give birth to revolutions. This is not merely an example of a fantasy; life sketch of Guru Gobind Singh Ji is full of such examples.
An example of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's warrior spirit comes from the creation of the Khalsa Panth and the bani in 'Dasam Granth Sahib' details his influential ability as a high-class poet very precisely. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a collection of various writings of the Dasam Guru which was compiled after his 'jyoti-jot' with the motivation and instructions of Mata Sundar Kaur Ji. This effort was undertaken by Bhai Mani Singh Ji's attendant scholars, including Bhai Sheea Singh Ji. The following are the prominent writings of the Dasam Granth Sahib:
Jaap Sahib, Akaal Ustat, Gyaan Parbodh, Shastar Naam-Mala, Chandi Charitrokti Bilas, Vaar Durga Ki, Bachitar Natak, Charitro Pakhyaan, Hakayat and Zafarnaama. In addition, there are 'Shabad Ragaa Ke' (shabads written in various ragas), 32 Sawaeay, Khalsa Mehima, Khyaal, Sadd and the Asfotak Chands.
The Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyaan are two most extensive banis of Dasam Granth Sahib. The Bachitar Natak narrates the tail of various ancient gods and goddesses in a modern and enthusiastic way. Terminology and wording full of bir-russ is used to help people learn appropriate lessons from lives of their idols. The banis focus chiefly on the common people so they could be influenced to take part in the revolution started by Guru Sahib. Maintaining traditions isn't very difficult, but to use these traditions to scheme for contemporary development is certainly an art. This was the main purpose of mentioning stories and tales of various gods and goddesses. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that he isn't mistaken as a worshipper of demigods and he clearly denounced such worship in many places in Dasam Granth Sahib. He states that his main notion behind writing accounts of Sri Ram, Sri Krishna and
Durga is only to uplift the spirit of war in the people:
ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗੌਤ ਕੀ, ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ,
ਅਵਰਿ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਂਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਧਰਮਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ॥2491॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)
I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491.
Another clear note from the Krishna Avtar:
ਮੈਂ ਨਾ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਉਂ। ਕਿਸਨ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹਿ ਧਿਆਊਂ।
ਕਾਨਿ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋ। ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋ॥434॥ (ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਅਵਤਾਰ)
I do not adore Ganesha as being the highest and also do not meditate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Akal Purakh).434.
A similar note is found in the katha of Rama Avtar:
ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ
ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ।
ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ
ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥863॥
O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions.
The four hundred and five chapters long Charitro Pakhyaan states prevalent tails of misconduct of men and women. These were penned for the purpose of ensuring that the newly initiated 'Sant Sipahis' (Saintly Warriors) do not become victim of such wrongdoing. In those days, brothels were rather popular and existed freely without interference of law or common norms. The soul purpose of writing such stories was to keep the Sikhs on the right path. For Example:
ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਤ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕੀ, ਪੈਸਨ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰਤੀਤਿ।
ਬਿਛੂ ਬਿਸੀਅਰ ਬੇਸਵਾ, ਕਹਹੁ ਕਵਨ ਕੇ ਮੀਤ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 16)
(She) is not acquainted with love; her attachment remains limited to money. Has a scorpion, snake or a prostitute ever been friends with anyone?
Same teaching is again repeated in the following sentences:
ਸੁਧ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਧਰੀ, ਬਚਨ ਗੁਰ ਦਏ ਹਮਾਰੇ
ਪੂਤ! ਯਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਣ ਤੋਹਿ, ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਜਬ ਲਗ ਘਟਿ ਥਾਰੇ,
ਨਿਜ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨੇਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਨੀਤ ਬਢਈਅਹੁ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੀ ਸੇਜ ਭੂਲਿ ਸੁਪਨੇ ਹੂੰ ਨ ਜਈਅਹੂ॥51॥
Ever since growing up, my Guru gave me the following instructions: "Son! As long as there is breath in your body, continually increase the affection with your wife and do not go into the bed of another woman even in dreams."
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਸਹਸ ਬਾਸਵ ਭਗ ਪਾਏ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਭਜੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਕਾਲੰਕ ਲਗਾਏ
ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੇ ਹੇਤੁ, ਸੀਸ 'ਦਸ ਸੀਸ ਗਵਾਯੋ
ਹੋ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ਕੈਹਤੁ, ਕਟਕ ਕਵਰਨ ਕੋ ਘਾਯੋ॥42॥ (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 21)
Because Indra mated with another's woman, he came to bear thousands of marks of female organs. The same reason caused denigration to the moon. For sake of another's women, the Ravan also had to loose his ten heads and the same also caused devastation to the Kauravs.
ਜਨਨਿ ਜਠਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਆਇ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਦੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ
ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਕੋ ਪਾਇ, ਕਹਹਿ ਹਮ ਭੋਮ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ
ਥੂਕ ਤ੍ਰਿਯਾ ਕੋ ਚਾਟਿ, ਕਹਿਤ ਅਧਰਾਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪਾਯੋ
ਬ੍ਰਿਥਾ ਜਗਤ ਮੈਂ ਜਨਮ, ਬਿਨਾ ਜਸਦੀਸ਼ ਗਵਾਯੋ। (ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ 81)
One faces many pains while in the womb of his mother. By mating with a woman and licking her saliva, he claims to receive pleasures. But at the end his life is wasted in the world without meditation of God.
These teachings are asserted by almost all lecturers during Anand Karajs and never does anyone in the Sikh Sangat demonstrate any rejection upon them. It is true that some graphical words exist in these stories but they have only been used to save the Sikhs from such misconduct. Sikhs do not perform Akhand Path of these stories and neither are they read during the daily nitnem. The Bani 'Kabio Bach Benti Chaupae' which appears at the end of this Granth is however read by Sikhs for Amrit Sanchars and also during the daily nitnem. No one has ever raised questions about its authenticity. These are not merely 'stories or tails'; these are banis which entail Gurmat principals but don't need to be dissertated. There have been many who have also raised doubts on other parts of this Granth. Some state that the Dasam Granth Sahib was penned by the Darbari poets but reality is totally opposite to this. By becoming victims of such doubts, people became unsuccessful in understanding the main purpose of Guru Sahib and the 'self-acclaimed' scholars kept on uttering nonsense. Those who had not even read Dasam Granth Sahib started presenting baseless arguments against it. To realize the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib, all readers must bring their attention to the following straight-forward points:
The Hazoori Sikhs of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who were accustomed with all aspects of his life compiled the 'Granth of the Tenth Guru' after his physical departure from this world. The letter of Bhai Mani Singh Ji also supports this fact.
All the copies (around a dozen) of Dasam Granth Sahib that were compiled during the eighteenth century contain all the above mentioned banis. There is no difference in their content.
The internal content of this Granth also proves that its author is Guru Gobind Singh Ji. In his own composition, Guru Sahib states:
ਅਬ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ। ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ। (ਬਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ)
Now I relate my own story of how God sent me in the world while I was absorbed in meditation.
and
ਸੇਵਕ ਸਿੱਖ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਤਾਰੀਅਹਿ। ਚੁਨਿ ਚੁਨਿ ਸ਼ਤ੍ਰ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਹਿ। (ਚੌਪਈ ਸਾਹਿਬ)
Cross over the world-ocean these devotees and Sikhs that belong to You. Pick up my foes and destroy them.
The language used in the Dasam Granth Sahib also explains that its author is none other than the Mahaakavi Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Guru Sahib used words such as Bhagauti, Kharag, Khag, Tegh, As, Asthuj, Khargait, Kirpan, Kaal, Mahakaal, Sarbkaal, Sarbloh, Mahaloh, etc. to refer to Akal Purakh. None of these words have been used by any of the Darbari poets. These and other similar ones appear throughout the writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
It was customary for the Darbari Kavis to start their writings by praising Guru Gobind Singh Ji but at no instance a manglacharan exists in Dasam Granth Sahib that praises a certain individual, rather Guru Gobind Singh Ji has addressed the might of Almighty God in all of his writings.
There are some Chands that appear concurrently in the Bachitar Natak and the Charitro Pakhyan. These include: "ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਯੋ ਤਿਣ ਤੇ and ਯਾ ਕਾਗਦ ਦੀਪ ਸਬੈ ਕਰਕੈ" etc.
It was prevalent amongst the previous generation of Sikhs to revere all contents of Dasam Granth Sahib as writings of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This is the reason the following Panthic instruction was passed:
ਦੁਹੂੰ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਮੈ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਈ। ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਕੰਠ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਸੋਈ'। (ਰਹਿਤਨਾਮਾ, ਭਾਈ ਦੇਸਾ ਸਿੰਘ)
Everyday, pick and memorize the banis of the two Granths. (Rehitnama, Bhai Desa Singh)
It was according to this notion that different Chands of Dasam Granth Sahib have been popularized over time by Guru Ji's Sikhs. But the status of being the Guru rested solely with Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Just like in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, names such as Madho, Kamlapat, Gopal (Vishnu), Keshav, Syaam (Krishna), Raam, Raghunaath (Ramchandar), etc. are used; Guru Gobind Singh Ji used old and prevalent names to bring all castes and creeds together. To censure something without reading, listening or understanding is very foolish. By walking on this path, many have suffered, and at the end they have had to apologize.
The simple answer to those who question the necessity of writing about Avtars is that the Avtar Katha was written solely to awaken the spirit of the Hindus. If their idols such as Raam, Krishna, Bheem and Arjun could dare to destroy dreadful demons, they too can take part in Dharam Yudhs. And as stated earlier, the only reason behind writing stories of adulterous misconduct was to raise awareness within the newly initiated Sikhs. Furthermore, one needs to realize that if authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib was indeed questionable; its contents would have never been included in nitnem that is prescribed by the sixty year old 'Sikh Rehit Maryada'.
Another doubt that is raised upon the authenticity of Dasam Granth Sahib includes the question whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji really had the time to pen down such a great amount of bani. According to historical facts that exist, Guru Gobind Singh Ji wrote this Granth between 1675 and 1700, which is a period of twenty five years. It was after this time that attention of Guru Sahib remained focused towards wars and battles. Period of twenty five years is enough to work on a complication as lengthy as the Dasam Granth Sahib. Guru Sahib was the Guru; even his Sikhs such as Bhai Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh, and Bhai Veer Singh penned thousands of pages in a period of few years.
We also need to consider that the Avtar Katha in Dasam Granth Sahib provides priceless information on many of the ancient stories that have been included in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Dasam Granth Sahib has long been used significantly by the learnt scholars and historians. The information provided in this Granth is important to understand several aspects of Guru Granth Sahib Ji's bani. Without the guidance of this Granth, Sikhs would be misguided with the misinformation that exists about various avtars and historical epics and tails.
(Translated from ‘ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਪਰਮਾਣਿਕਤਾ’ Courtesy www.panthic.org)
First, in one of your Pro Dasam Granth lobby postings you boys indicate that Piara Singh Padam has admitted that he made mistakes. Now you are going to use as guide his same writings that according to your lobby were admitted to be wrong by the writer himself.
Second, I have proved beyond any shadow of doubt that the Avtars that you boys refer to are attributed Guru Gobind Gobind Singh ji as his Auto Biography. Read Paira Singh’s views and see for yourself !
Click on the link below and go to Page 44 read the Chaupai for yourself
http://www.dasamgranth.org/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf
Please read the translations of stanzas 3, 4, 6 & especially 7. Your claim that these Avtars are TRANSLATIONS not AUTO-BIOGRAPHICAL writings is TOTALLY annihilated here.
You can clearly read that it is attributed to Dasam Patshah Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji as his previous life experiences, which is anti Gurmat anyway.
Let me translate Stanza 7 for all readers;
Then the omnipresent Kal (Death) became kind to me, and considering me as His servant became drenched in love and helped me REMEMBER ALL OF MY RE-INCARNATIONS.
While you are at it, read Stanza 5 to see its anti Gurmat inference. Let me translate for all readers;
Kal (Death) is our Father, Devi Kalika is our Mother, my Mind is my Guru and my Desires are my Wife.
Compare this against Gurmat from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (page 167);
thoo(n) gur pithaa thoo(n)hai gur maathaa thoo(n) gur ba(n)dhhap maeraa sakhaa sakhaae ||3||
O Guru, You are my father. O Guru, You are my mother. O Guru, You are my relative, companion and friend. ||3||
(page 94);
maeraa maath pithaa gur sathigur pooraa gur jal mil kamal vigasai jeeo ||3||
The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, is my Mother and Father. Obtaining the Water of the Guru, the lotus of my heart blossoms forth. ||3||
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Guru Da Sikh,
you wrote:
No one has interpreted all these labels as god himself but attributes of god. Actually you just contradicted yourself when you accuse of others that they are using labels of (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as God but you said - god himself which implies you yourself bind god as masculine entity.
It’s NOT MY INTERPRETATION. Even MoolMantar tells you the same (Karta NOT Karti, Purkh NOT Mayee).
I am sure if you were to search Gurbani you will find various shabads where Gurbani refers to GOD HIMSLEF in Masculine entity. Look for the words ‘Khasam Hamara’.
Please DON’T tell me now that Guru ji made a mistake.
Just to help your search, look in Sri Guru Granth Sahib: (Page 212 ) aiso hai rae khasam hamaaraa || Such is my Lord and Master (Page 376 ) avinaasee avigath agochar sadhaa salaamath khasam hamaaraa ||1|| rehaao || Imperishable, Unshakable, Unapproachable and forever safe and sound is my Husband Lord (NOT WIFE QUEEN). ||1||Pause|| (Page 384 ) anadh binodhee khasam hamaaraa ||3|| My Husband Lord is blissful and playful. ||3||
If you need more proof, I can post more.
Is Mahakal feminine?
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The setting for that debate was alright but no one said anything bad about each other in the debate. I wasn't there so I can't comment on what went on before the debate. I also linked Jeonwala debate with Jathedar Iqbal Singh of Takht Patnaa Sahib. That debate was also alright. Jeonwala and Hari Singh debate went on properly until the end. Regarding the Ghagga and Kulbir Singh debate, that isn't the whole debate. I am not sure how long the katha guy will take to prepare but our side is always ready to have sambaad.
Like we have seen here, many people don't understand the core philosophies of Gurmat such as description of God and things like that. Some guys just keep copy pasting from other places which makes it easy for the copy paster but takes the whole time out of the responder. I haven't been able to sit with my family because of answering people's questions here. I also made a thread for Pro Dasam Granth side to decide on who Poet Shyam, Raam and Kaal are. That is also something the pro Dasam Granth side needs to decide. Another thing to decide is, is whole Dasam Granth work of one writer or several? This is important because if there is only 1 writer, then anything that is again Gurmat will reject the whole granth because Guru Gobind SIngh Ji wouldn't write anything which would prove to be anti-Gurmat or anti-history. Once we have this information, we can create a setting for debate in the Toronto if the Pro Dasam Granth side wants to debate with me. If they want to debate with Jeonwala or Prof. Darshan SIngh or someone else, then they can decide with the respective party. However, option outside of GTA seems invalid because of what Hari Singh Randhwara did. Jeonwala left his work to go debate and didn't work for almost a whole week. He drives truck so imagine the money he lost. He also paid for flight to New York. Prof. Darshan SIngh was in same situation because he also paid for flight but Hari Singh Randhawa did moke maar. Prof. Darshan Singh had also just gotten out of hospital after ear surgeries. He left his rest to have discussion so at least some conclusion could be reached but what Hari Singh Randhawa did was very disgraceful and unacceptable.
Hari Singh Radhawe Wala didn’t even bother answering a phone call from Radio Awaz in Seattle to answer questions about debacle on his proposed Dasam Granth debate in New York. You folks can call Ajay Singh the operator of the Radio station to verify. Hari Singh avoided the live interview for the whole week he stayed in Seattle.Yet he is still the SANT !
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That was a different topic and host never gave Jeonwala enough time to talk.
That debate was similar to the one here. I am trying to have a fair discussion on this Forum where the Moderator himself is biased and is holding my responses for quite some time before posting with Edits, and sometimes even without any hint of it to the readers.
Admin Note: Please check your pm for the third time. All sevadars have social life and families and work to do. I have already set out the approval time for moderated messages.
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The Khalsa Fauji,
Can you also comment on question below:
I agree with Khalsa Fauji about the Live Debate. Your so called ‘scholars’ can write whatever they want in any book, fill pages & pages but who is going to read it. Not the general public. However, with the live debate, everybody is glued into the discussion and there are no excuses like Mr. Lamba. I had posted a question to the Pro Dasam Granth lobby to explain why the Dasam Granth ranges in various versions from 500 pages to over 1,400 pages today. This so called book debate has something to do with that and here is how. There are old versions of this Dasam Granth, in hard copy that were missing the Mukhvaak Patshahi 10 on various stanzas. When those were questioned by Sikh Scholars, the newer versions started showing up with Mukhvaak Patshahi 10 heading. Every time some verses are questioned, more are added on to support the ones in question. This is a clever move by Pro Dasam Granth lobby to prevent a neutral Sikh from even debating on this issue. SO a book debate would simply lead to more ‘Dasam Patshah Bani’ being ‘Created’ and added to ‘Newer versions of Dasam Granth’, whenever a question is raised.
We have a complete analysis of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji done in the simplest language by Prof. Sahib Singh ji. But I don’t think even 10% of the people claiming to be Sikhs have actually read it. Because if they had, they would have immediately recognized any pornographic writings outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as Anti Gurmat and would have challenged it right away. By writing books, all we will end up doing will beto simply postpone the face to face discussion that eventually has to happen to decide the fate of Dasam Granth.
If you feel that your guy is a scholar on Dasam Granth, then let him write the book but he should NOT shy away from a Live debate.
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Khalsa fauj you should start to study the concept of nirgun, sargun and avatarvaad.. What you say makes no sense if we compare it to the shabads in Gurbani:
O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.
Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained. ||Pause||
Set aside your greed and worldly ways.
Set aside sexual desire, anger and egotism. ||2||
If God does'nt have any attributes then why does Gurbani say this:
The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.
Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.
Your body is so precious, cast in gold.
His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.
You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.
Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful. ||7||
Your walk is so graceful, and Your speech is so sweet.
You coo like a songbird, and your youthful beauty is alluring.
Your youthful beauty is so alluring; it pleases You, and it fulfills the heart's desires.
Like an elephant, You step with Your Feet so carefully; You are satisfied with Yourself.
You call yourself a Sikh, yet you are willing to twist the meaning of only one line at a time from Gurbani to prove your point instead of analyzing the whole shabad.
Here is a simple guide for you to understand Gurbani. You should normally start with one or two lines ending with Rahao. This gives you the central idea of the Shabad. Once you get the central idea, the rest of Shabad Gyan revolves around that central idea. If you are unable to make sense of a shabad in that way, then you should read the preceding and the following shabads to get more detailed meaning of the shabad. Your interpretation of the shabad or any lines MUST NOT AT ALL TIMES violate the basic analyses of Mool Mantar.
Now getting back to your lack of knowledge, click on the following link http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0324.html and read the meaning of the complete shabad and while you are at it enlighten yourself with a few more shabads preceding the one you quoted from Kabir ji Gauri. If the Pad Arth says Four Arm God, Prof. Sahib Singh ji never uses the word in his analyses. That is because if you folks were to read the Bhaav Arth, especially the NOTE at the bottom of the shabad, then you would have definitely noticed that Prof. ji went on to relate this Four Arm God to an idol (Murti). If you can focus for a second or two, you will notice that these shabads are being addressed to the Jogi, Sadhus, and Brahmins of Banaris, from where called Nirmala Panth started.
Regarding your second reference, you should follow the same rules listed above and read (band 7) of the shabad with the note inside the brackets, to gain some knowledge about Gurbani. Here is the link:
http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan2/0567.html
Mod's edit
Based on your analyzes, I am NOT surprised at all that you boys will interpret (Kali, Bhavani, Mahakal, Chandi, Durga and any other name Raam, Shyam or Kal listed in Dasam Granth) as GOD himself.
It’s only here I agree with N30 Singh that the wounded Lion is more dangerous with the word wounded being replaced with Pretentious, of course!
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To all Dasam Granth UPASHAKS – I am just tied up in a couple of business issues. I will be back in a couple of days or sooner to put up new posts.
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Can somebody post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that we get from Cahritro Pakhyan's 404 chritars?
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GDS,
I answered your questions.
Can you post a link where you posted the answer to this question?
Here is my question again, in case you overlooked:
Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from Dasam Granth.
Try to stop jumping around like a Kangaroo on red bull, then read through the responses.
For someone who is propogating Gurmat - you have serious communication, diplomacy and mannerism issues.
Communication: You claim to have posted the answers and yet those are nowhere to be found, and I am the one who has gotten the communication problem!
Diplomacy: Works where logic is respected. Dictators like you do not use diplomacy as a tool!
Mannerism: Read all of you Dasam Granth supporters posts, and the disrespectful language you have used and continue to use for Kahan Singh Nabha, Prof. Darshan Singh etc.. Why don’t you guys practice what you preach?
Lets us stick to the topics and post a link to your post where you answered the above question !
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"sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false. Does that still leave you room for other literature to seek knowledge? You said Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE then what is it that you are looking for in literature outside of a COMPLETE SATGURU?"
Does that mean that you will not be sending your children to school then i.e. they may have to read Romeo and Juliette as part of their English Literature module, I suppose that would be AN-TIE Gurmat....
mod edit
Why is that people that do ‘Akhand Path’ from Dasam Granth do NOT read Charitro Pakhyan out loud and do katha from its verses on the Gurudwara stage?
Again I ask the question: Can you or have you read the translation of these Charitro Pakhyan to your family members especially your sister(s) or mother?
Note for N30: You should not edit this response, since my intention is to get started in the Charitro Pkhyan thread, but here the reference to Charitro Pakhyan is simply to answer his question.
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Guru da Sikh,
you said in your previous post in this thread:
Does that imply you believe - jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie, chaupie sahib were kachi bani (god forbid) since they were outside of sri guru granth sahib maharaj ?
I stated my position in an earlier post, that out of respect, I do NOT oppose the Rehat Meryada. And these three are included in that.
If you consider yourself a Sikh and claim that you get the Atmik Gyan from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, has the Guru NOT answered your question in the same lines!
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look at his post now, he has improved quite a bit.
This guy is not only good he is funny too! Love his response about Kala Afghana & and the reference to Chritars.
2. No i haven't heard about this debate. Please share the direct links.Khalsa Fauj, can you post the link, if possible. You already have the links to other Audio debates.
compile all the propaganda together and answering them one by one in a book format close to 200 pages, takes long time.If he is trying to answer all questions about this Granth, he is going to need more than 2 months and more than 200 pages. I hope the book doesn’t end up being bigger than the Granth itself!
Have you heard of mohavara- zakhmi sher is more dangerous than active one?I am sure you do understand that the active ones are more productive & useful than the wounded ones that become diet for others in no time!
anyway enough of talking, please respond to the threads that i have invited you - the roles of sants and sri dasam granth- charitaropakyan.Would you let me post the exact English & Punjabi translations of the Charitars in charitaropakyan without any editing?
Admin Note: Your rest of the posts were edited, since it was directed towards the moderation. I don't want to make this thread between you and me going in circles. Please check your pm
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Instead of harping on in defence of so called Ghagha please give us reference of the Dohra as you say.
They have no authority to change anything. It is akal takhat who has authority to make changes.
(You Pro Dasam Granth people have to stop being hypocritical about Akal Takhat and its authority.
You try to hide behind it when it works for you while at all other times it is nothing more than ink on paper. You boys support and speak up for people & institutions that violate Rehat Meryada approved by the same Akal Takhat (Installation of Dasam Granth beside Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji’s Parkash), Taksal having their own separate Meryada etc. And now you are here to give us lecture about Rehat Meryada !
Would you come out and make a clear statement, whether you are FOR or AGAINST the Akal Takhat Rehat Meryada approved by SGPC and implemented by Akal Takhat.)
By saying that there were no chali muktas they are trying to alter sikh history. Is there any justification for that?
By the way how this guy became professor? Who gave him this title?
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Radio talk on sher e punjab does go pretty smoothly. You can watch some of the previous talks there. They have invited Prof. Darshan Singh, Dr. Jodh Singh, Balwant Singh Nandgarh, Principal Surinder Singh, Jathedar Tarlochan Singh, etc. etc.
I like that idea of the debater preparing for two months to debate because I wouldn't want him to say, I never read this section before. This is what Lamba did when he debates here in Toronto. He was asked about devi joo koo ustat kathnung in Krishan Avtar, he said he never read this section before and can't comment.
(Goes to show the extent that these so called ‘scholars’ have read & understood Dasam Granth. If the foremost & leading PROPONENT of Dasam Granth (Mr. Lamba) has NOT READ the whole Dasam Granth admittingly and is willing to endorse it as a COMPLETE writing of Dasam Patshah, then it would be like Albert Einstein saying I am trying to find the definition of mass on the internet. No wonder, you can’t help but feel sorry for the boys on this forum who try to support their flimsy arguments.
You probably have seen the posting here where they now trying to interpret Devi as Akal Purkh. Is there any reference to God in the feminine terms in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji at all?
Can you call Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala and let him know that you are Khalsa Fauji. I will call him later today so we can share / discuss some questions about Dasam Granth.)
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Guru Da Sikh you wrote:
//1. Let me know if your ‘scholar’ on Dasam Garnth is available on Sunday morning. We can ask Kuldeep Singh to arrange an open debate for two hours on his Radio Shere Punjab. Radio Shere Punjab will pay for his long distance call charges so your ‘scholar’ does not have to lose any work time. It will save your guys $3500 and more importantly the excuses to delay this debate. Let’s see how he is going to fair answering the questions from general public. I think it will be very educational for the Sikh Sangat in deciding the fate of Dasam Granth !
2. I guess the Bir Ras you guys talk about getting from Dasam Granth dissipates very quicky when it comes to debating. You think Bhai Bachittar Singh asked Guru ji to just give him a couple of months to tidy up his financials and family matters before he would come back and face the drunken elephant being brought against the Guru and his Sikhs in the next day or so ! What about Bhai Mati Dass, Bhai Sati Dass, Bhai Dyala ji, how long did they ask for? Goes to show the “ACTUAL” love you folks have to ‘protect’ Dasam Patsha’s honor when you consider ‘Nastiks’ like us challenging Dasam Patshah’s ‘honor’ and his ‘Bani’ !
3. You noticed when you accept a challenge, then how quickly the time to earn the same amount changed from 2 months to 4 months!
Did his wages just drop in half in the last two hours?
I don’t know if there is that much deflation in Economic terms.
I do know the DEFLATION that can happen to the Dasam Granth followers when they are asked to debate and provide solid proofs to back up their claims !
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(First of all, can you let this FORUM know about the EDITs you are doing to my responses prior to postings. And you have NOT posted at least TWO of my responses)
1. First of all there is no excuse to delay the debate because i was the one to post in response to the khalsa fauj enquiry of debating in Toronto as he never directed his request post towards me personally but to everyone on this forum.
(1. I am sure you listened to the debate Malkiat Singh & Baba Hari Singh (in the background) had on Radio Shere Punjab a couple of weeks ago. The only two things that missing were: Tu Tu Mein Mein and ANSWERS to Kuldeep Singh’s questions. The only two thing that WERE presented: whole bunch of complains and excuses. We can ask Kuldeep Singh ji to even NOT talk any calls from Public. We can bring in Anti & Pro Dasam Granth ‘scholars’ on the radio and let people listen to it live so there is no room for editing and errors etc.)
He would like to debate only once, ever wondered why would it take 2 months for him to compile all responses against anti sri dasam granth sahib people. Not because of excuses. Everything would be addressed there,every single point people have against sri dasam granth sahib will be addressed.
what do you prefer more action(tu tu mein mein) on radio where each party can easily go off topic and screw up the whole debate on the radio or would you prefer more traditional approach of writing up an book where everything is addressed? We would prefer either video debate with neutral moderators or creating book where everything is addressed against anti dasam granth parchars.
Video debate - face to face much better than radio one, where everything is recorded and moderated by neutral people- have you ever seen debate - kulbir singh having debate with inderjit ghagha? It was amazing, there were no insults/off topics. It was absoultely amazing debate, thats how gursikhs should discuss issues.
Here are the video link for you to educate how actual debate between gursikhs should be. Even your missionary people despite of not having answers of many points kulbir singh bought up have nothing but praising towards the whole setting, there are six parts to it. Watch it in your spare time.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-61...hagga&hl=en
2. One becomes hot headed fanatic having bir ras without shant ras. Kala Afghana wrote stuff against sri dasam granth sahib via pen, it would only make sense to respond to him via pen than sword. But nice try to invoke an violent reaction from sri dasam granth supporters, its not going to happen.
(2. There is no NEED for me to invoke any violent response from your side. It has been obvious from the Pro Dasam Granth lobby from their postings on the thread that you had to lock. Guess they need to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to get the ‘Shant Ras’, and NOT spend all the time on Dasam Granth to get the ‘Bir Ras’. The POINT I was trying to make was that I wouldn’t want to wait another two months on an issue that has been brewing for the last nearly 100 years. By the way, why call somebody a ‘scholar’ if he hasn’t even gotten his answers ready yet! )
3. Please re-read the post carefully before jumping the bandwagon, you are quoting the khalsa fauji post of 3-4 months which is referring to jeonwala.
(3. Gurcharan Singh Jeonwala is also a truck driver. When he got the call to debate with Hari Singh, he jumped on the next plane and arrived there the same day. He waited from Friday till Monday so that there were no excuses for NOT having a debate. But look what Hari Singh did, he left the stage in less than two minutes, while this guy had to buy another plane ticket to get back to Toronto from New York and lose nearly one week’s earnings. Does goes to show the love you truly have for Dasam Patshah !)
Just in case you missed it, i will bold it for you this time-
Bhai sahib ji who has willing to debate against anti- sri dasam granth sahib parchar would require funding for his two month pay because he will leave his temporary job for that two months, in order to get the funds it can take up to 3-4 months. It was direct response to The Khalsa Fauji repeated request for having a debate in Toronto.
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