Guru da Sikh

EXCUSE THE CAPITALS, BUT YOU HAVE AVOIDED THIS QUESTION:

WHERE DOES THE VERSE THAT BOTH YOU AND YOUR 'NAASTIK' MURSHID LOVE TO QUOTE COME FROM I.E. 'BIPRAN KE REET'.

AMRIT KIRTAN IS NOT A PRIMARY SOURCE CLEVER CLOGGS.

FOR SOMEONE WHO LOVES ADVERTISE THAT HE RELIES ONLY ON SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB, ITS LAUGHABLE THAT YOU QUOTE SO STRONGLY FROM SOURCES YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW EXIST.

YOU ARE BETTER OFF MOVING ON TO ANOTHER WEBSITE, YOU'VE EMBARRESSED YOURSELF ENOUGH HERE AND WON NO CONVERTS TO YOUR CULT.

Where are the answers to the following questions, BOYS !

A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani

B. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

I will have about 8 more follow up questions once you have answered these.

I guess you would like nothing better than I to go away from this website. Am I making your ‘intellectual’ life that difficult?

You guys can pat each other on the back and act as judge and jury at the same time. But that simply proves your dictatorial behavior. Is that the mark of a Gursikh (meaning the Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji).

I understand. Everyone in this country works to earn a living. There is always cash output once we get input. You would have to ask jeonwala about cash. I would not do that. I don't ask anyone for cash like that. He prob. will wait 3-4 months than pay cash because he also drives truck to make his living. Other than that he usually asks others for cash to support his cause so I don't think he has cash to give.

You noticed when you accept a challenge, then how quickly the time to earn the same amount changed from 2 months to 4 months!

Did his wages just drop in half in the last two hours?

I don’t know if there is that much deflation in Economic terms.

I do know the DEFLATION that can happen to the Dasam Granth followers when they are asked to debate and provide solid proofs to back up their claims !

As i said, We don't want funding from you guys since will manage it to get funding regardless but it will take some time 3-4 months. However, if this jeonwale seems to be really uptempo on having a debate then ask him if he agrees to half of the funding just in urge of having a debate.

No i cannot give you name until funding is arranged not necessarily xfer to his name by just arranged and confirmed by us.

I am sure you will agree it's a shame that only thing stopping us for have proper full fledged debate on sri dasam granth sahib is actual funding.

What can i say mate?

Time is money in this country gotta financially support gristhi jevan...!

I guess the Bir Ras you guys talk about getting from Dasam Granth dissipates very quicky when it comes to debating. You think Bhai Bachittar Singh asked Guru ji to just give him a couple of months to tidy up his financials and family matters before he would come back and face the drunken elephant being brought against the Guru and his Sikhs in the next day or so ! What about Bhai Mati Dass, Bhai Sati Dass, Bhai Dyala ji, how long did they ask for? Goes to show the “ACTUAL” love you folks have to ‘protect’ Dasam Patsha’s honor when you consider ‘Nastiks’ like us challenging Dasam Patshah’s ‘honor’ and his ‘Bani’ !

I have a katha vaichak who is more than happy to discuss sri dasam granth sahib with you guys, he has refuted claims by missionaries/bhausaria against dasam granth sahib before in montreal and calgary. Right now he drives a truck which is bit unfortunate as he does not wish to pursue katha vaichak career anymore in the Gurdwara. Once we get sufficient funding for him here which is close to $3500 for 2 months temporary to support him, he will able to ready for full fledged debate on sri dasam granth sahib. Until then be patient unless off course your side can provide him half funding in "act of desperation for debate" do let us know.

Let me know if your ‘scholar’ on Dasam Garnth is available on Sunday morning. We can ask Kuldeep Singh to arrange an open debate for two hours on his Radio Shere Punjab. Radio Shere Punjab will pay for his long distance call charges so your ‘scholar’ does not have to lose any work time. It will save your guys $3500 and more importantly the excuses to delay this debate. Let’s see how he is going to fair answering the questions from general public. I think it will be very educational for the Sikh Sangat in deciding the fate of Dasam Granth !

I am not sure how Guru Da Sikh person got the info that Bipran Ke Reet is mentioned in Dasam Granth because it isn't. It isn't even in Sarabloh Granth. It is in the edited version of poetry titled 'Khalsa Mero Roop Hai Khaas'.

Sarabloh Granth says:

Khalsa Kaal Purakh Kee Fauj

Edited version says:

Khalsa Akaal Purakh Kee Fauj

Are you sure about your statements on Charitropakhyan? If yes, please inform Lamba because he is in New York and might get into a Dasam Granth debate. Lamba sure didn't fair well in his first three-four debates.

I will post some links to talk on Dasam Granth held on radio.

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/55

Dr. Jodh Singh in audio below

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/37

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/35

http://www.singhsabhacanada.com/Audio/13

http://www.wakeupkhalsa.com/talk-shows.php

More links will be posted later.

I already posted that Bipran Ki Reet is from Amrit Kirtan, which is attributed to Dasam Patshah ! why basically everything that they claim to be penned by Dasam PAtsha is Dasam Granth or Dasam Darbar?. I posted this two days ago.

I posted 6 original questions and with all of their booha they still have not answer the last two questions and I have 8 more questions waiting for them. Are these the qualities of a debater? Nah !!

Thanks for putting up these GOOD links. !

ALL Dasam Granth Supporters and followers, please answer these questions OUTSTANDING FOR the last few days;

A. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

B. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

While you are at it, can somebody answer the following questions;

1. REHATNAMA, outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, preventing a MAN from committing adultery

2. Please clearly NAME the author of that Rehatnama

Q11

>Gurprasad is the complete Gurbani Manglacharan, not Mul Mantar (with smaller variations found at raag intros and specific important shabds). As per all old Sikh orders >Hosi Bhi Sach is Mul Mantar.

(You people refer to Sikh Code of Conduct from Akal Takhat, so please remind sangat again as to what is the approved MoolMantar. (upto Gurparsad)

Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical?

Of course Guru holds the keys to 'unlocking' the mind. Bhai Gurdas simply gives us exegesis over Gurbani, talks about Sikh life, events and other Mats. All is in line with Gurbani.

(KEYS: WOW ! There is only one mind, one Dasam Dwar, One access, One lock and yet many KEYS ! Read Gurbani carefully. Everywhere Guru ji uses the SINGULAR form of the word KUNJI and NOT KUNJIAN !)

Q13 - Great answer! A*!

Thank You !

Q14

Nirmala order is rooted in the 5 Singhs that Guru Gobind Singh ji sent Varanasi in order to retrieve the monopolised knowledge of Indian Philosophies, which was coded in Sanskrit and inaccesible to the common man. Guru Ji gave back the Indians their heritage - but in a purified form - Gurmat.

(First of all it is abundantly clear from Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) and the Banis attributed to Guru Gobind Singh that Gurus Nanak Dev, Arjan Dev and Gobind Singh had sound knowledge of Sanskrit and Hindu mythology. It is also known that they did not go to Varanasi or any other Hindu center to learn Sanskrit and mythology and they learnt it where they grew up in Punjab. This means that Sanskrit teachers were available in Punjab.

So what was the particular need for Guru Gobind Singh to send five Sikhs to Varanasi?

Second, there were scholars in Guru Gobind Singh’s court, who translated Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa. Were they not competent enough to teach Sanskrit to Sikhs? If Guru had 52 scholars and poets in his court, couldn’t he hire few Sanskrit teachers for the Sikhs?

Third, if the Guru did send the Sikhs to Varanasi then what were their names and where did they come from? Wouldn‘t history record such information (not make up now) that Guru Gobind Singh ji considered so important?

Is there any biographical information available about them?

What did those Sikhs do with their knowledge of Sanskrit? Did they teach Sanskrit to Sikhs or translated Gurbani into Sanskrit? Did they translate Sanskrit texts into Braj Bhasa or Punjabi?)

The parchaar that both the Nirmalai and Udasis did is what replenished the Panth during the terrible 18th C. There non-Singh saroop and interaction with other faiths allowed them free access to do Gurmat parchaar and find new recruits, we owe our very survival to them.

(I do AGREE with you whole heartedly, the we do owe the SURVIVAL to these Nirmalays – NOT the survival of the GurSikhs BUT THE SURVIVAL OF THE BRAHMIN MENTALITY THAT LIVES ON IN PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF !)

Nirmalai from my experience do not have much interaction with Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, could you please provide evidence re your theory that they created Sri Dasam Granth Sahib?

(As far Nirmalay & Udasea goes, they are not only supporters of Dasam Granth but the actual contributor and initiators of this Granth. Your claim that they do not much about turns out to be a LIE when you click on the link below and see for yourself SWAMI Brahm Dev being presented as a ‘scholar‘.

)

Ithihaas tells us that Bhai Manni Singh Ji compiled Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, as does his communication with Mata Sundri Ji and the Massa Rangar seva episode, not to mention dates found in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib itself.

One more question:

1 - "Clarification: It is from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji."

2 - In Q6 you mention the Dasam Bani testing seva you are so kindly doing for the Panth.

3 - You also say why did Dasmesh Pita not include his writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

Why do you quote from non Sri Guru Granth Sahib sources?

( I have quoted from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and the only time I have quoted something other than that is a Sakhi about Udasea because the individual that I was replying to COULD NOT understand the logic of Gurbani and WAS hung up on Sakhis alone.)

Why are you carrying out 'Gurmat' tests on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib when you believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pooran (which it is for Atmak Marg) and when you clearly believe if Guru Gobind Singh had written anything, he would have included it in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

(I am Amritdhari Sikh, and have every right to protect the sanctity of the ONLY COMPLETE GURU of the Sikhs, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. When attempts are made by anti-Sikh coalition to destroy this connection between the Sikh & his Guru by creating the dasam Granth out of nowhere and attribute to Guru Gobind Singh ji, I have every right to TEST Dasam Granth against Gurmat Gyan so that CONFUSED INDIVIDUALS LIKE YOURSELF can be guided back to the Khalsa Panth. I believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji COMPLETE. )

Seems like you are a little confused about where you stand on all this?

(I look at your user name shaheediyan, and wonder if you intend to cause shaheedi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji !)

This is not the only place where Guru Granth Sahib ji does not go into explicit detail on an important facet of Sikh life. The rahit maryada is incorporated into Gurbani by a shabad. Aspects of rahit are discussed in various places in SGGS. However, all rahit maryada, in its entirety, is not explained in SGGS. (Would you please list the Sikh Code of Conduct (outside of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) that prevents a man from committing adultery and its author‘s name) Examples include the punj kakkar and the Amrit Sanchaar maryaada. So, SGGS is spiritually complete, but doesn't tell us everything about Sikh life. This is why we have Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars, which the Guru himself designated as the keys to understanding SGGS ji, this is why we have Dasam Bani. (Please provide any documented proof from Gurbani or from Dasam Granth to back up your one line bold statement claim that Guru ji HIMSELF designated Bhai Gurdaas ji vaars as the KEY to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.)

ang 1230

ਸਾਰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Saarang, Fifth Mehl:

ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਹੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਧਾਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Chant the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Har; enshrine the Lord, Har, Har, within your mind. ||1||Pause||

ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਸੁਨਨ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਨ ਅਨਿਕ ਪਾਤਿਕ ਪੁਨਹਚਰਨ ॥

Hear Him with your ears, and practice devotional worship - these are good deeds, which make up for past evils.

ਸਰਨ ਪਰਨ ਸਾਧੂ ਆਨ ਬਾਨਿ ਬਿਸਾਰੇ ॥੧॥

So seek the Sanctuary of the Holy, and forget all your other habits. ||1||.

ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਨੀਤ ਨੀਤਿ ਪਾਵਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥

Love the Lord's Feet, continually and continuously - the most sacred and sanctified.

ਸੇਵਕ ਭੈ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਨ ਕਲਿਮਲ ਦੋਖ ਜਾਰੇ ॥

Fear is taken away from the servant of the Lord, and the dirty sins and mistakes of the past are burnt away.

ਕਹਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਸੁਨਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਰਹਤ ਜਨਮ ਰਹਤੇ ॥

Those who speak are liberated, and those who listen are liberated; those who keep the Rehit, the Code of Conduct, are not reincarnated again.

ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਸਾਰ ਭੂਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਤੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ॥੨॥੪॥੧੩੩॥

The Lord's Name is the most sublime essence; Nanak contemplates the nature of reality. ||2||4||133||

By the way, if you have read the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji with even some basic (not very deep) understanding, you would have realized that the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches us meek humans how to be good citizens and perfect humans. Is that NOT the code of conduct for a Sikh. Besides it is Dasam Granth supporters, who admitted on other postings that all Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches is morals and qualities. (read Mithar‘s Posting June 4, 2009 at 07:15 AM)

You people make lot of claims but nothing to back it up with any proofs from Gurbani. I am still waiting for answers to my last only six questions. So many of you against one, yet you feel unable and incapable to answer my questions in details like I do.

Guru Da Sikh

Lets get to the basics, every religion have some sort of standards of academia same goes for sikhi, where one needs to study the vidya be it - vikayaran, bhav arths, uthanka, puratan sources to be authority to interpret sikh scriptures.

I am not sure what are the standards in missionary college but in academia of sikh dharam based on puratan scholarly tradition- sri dasam granth sahib is divided into three types of rachnas. To say sikh scriptures have only one rachna is bit silly as its proven wrong in gurbani itself when one studies sri guru granth sahib with open mind. Sri Guru granth sahib is divided in two types of rachna- Dhur Ki Bani Rachna mukhvak Guru Sahiban, Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna/ Dhur Ki bani mukhvakh by bhagat sahiban.

Now that been clarified. I must ask again please respond to my post below which you overlooked in my original post, i ll bold it for you again. Thanks for responding on chaubias avtar, i ll respond back to you shortly on that.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however they were included/translated/interpreted.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj including or translating or nterpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility has been clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

You are implying, like various Pro Dasam Granth members, that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is incomplete because it does NOT address the Panj Vikar issue and is supposedly addressed only in Dasam Granth. I have listed just a few examples from Gurbani alone that have all of these Panj Vikars listed clearly. SO, again explain to sangat what is the need for another Granth?

Page (366 –Raag Assa): kaam krodhh lobh mohu abhimaan vadhhaaeae || Sexual desire, anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit have increased.

Page (614 –Raag Sorath): kaam krodhh lobh moh abhimaanaa thaa mehi sukh nehee paaeeai ||

In sexual desire, anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit, peace is not to be found.

Page (1118): kaam krodhh lobh mohu abhimaan bikhai ras ein sa(n)gath thae thoo rahu rae ||

Sexual desire, anger, greed, attachment, egotism and corrupt pleasures - stay away from these.

Page (1396): kaam krodhh lobh moh apath pa(n)ch dhooth bikha(n)ddiou ||

He has cut down the five demons of unfulfilled sexual desire, unresolved anger, unsatisfied greed, emotional attachment and self-conceit.

Regarding Religious issues, look at the shabad below where Guru ji himself is saying that he has established Dharamsal, and what do you think is taught in that Dharamsal: DHARAM. By the way if you read this shabad analysis in detail you will see it also addresses the Panj Vikar issue in its first part.

Page (73): mai badhhee sach dhharam saal hai ||

I have established the Temple of Truth

Page (84): har kee vaddiaaee vaddee hai jaa niaao hai dhharam kaa ||

Great is the Greatness of the Lord; His Justice is totally Righteous.

Page (138): jo dhharam kamaavai this dhharam naao hovai paap kamaanai paapee jaaneeai ||

One who lives righteously is known as righteous; one who commits sins is known as a sinner.

Page (147): naanak gur sa(n)thokh rukh dhharam ful fal giaan ||

O Nanak, the Guru is the tree of contentment, with flowers of faith, and fruits of spiritual wisdom.

I am still bewildered at your lame explanation for the need of other Granths, especially Dasam Granth.

Page (1374): kabeeraa jehaa giaan theh dhharam hai jehaa jhoot(h) theh paap ||

Kabeer, where there is spiritual wisdom, there is righteousness and Dharma. Where there is falsehood, there is sin.

Piara Singh Padam's translation is wrong in many places - he himself admits this. That is why it is best to rely on the original source.

Piara Singh Padam has NEVER admitted to any of his writings being wrong. Show me the written proof and / or news clipping, only then I will believe you. I have read some of his published correspondence with Kala Afgana, and I felt that Piara Singh’s response was simply hateful and condescending.

The "Bipran ki reet" line is not from Sri Dasam Granth.

I'm a bit busy with the 1984 programs this weekend, but will reply in more detail later.

To expand on that,

First of all of course Sri Guru Granth Sahib is complete and is the Living Guru of the Sikhs

that is not being disputed, it is a very crafty stratagem of anti-Dasam Granth propagandists

to imply that respecting Sri Dasam Granth constitutes some sort of insidious disrespect to

the position of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji,

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is a Shant Ras Granth from which one can contain the Essence of Peace

Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar are Bir Ras Granths meaning they contain the Essence

of the Warrior Spirit and can impart the same to the reader/listener,

so where is the contradiction or disrespect?

The Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa of the 1700's and 1800's acting as Guru Panth

formally gave the highest status to Dasam Guru Darbar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar

which is why they are so respected,

being that you have so far expressed nothing but contemptible vitriole for

Nihang Singhs it would be instructive if you read Prachin Panth Prakash,

Gurbilas Patshiah Dasvin and Suraj Prakash Granth

to fully understand the contributions of Nihang Singhs to this Panth because

if they hadn't existed and sacrificed everything we would not have survived as a religion

to be here today.

Also, are you aware of the great respect that Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindranwale had for

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib?

He has said that anyone who does not accept Bachitar Natak is a nastik.

I respect Baba Jarnail Singh ji because he was able to motivate Sikh masses to rise up against the discrimination and disrespect of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. He is to be respected as a great leader, but NOT as some sort of Guru with the ultimate authority to decide what is right or wrong. We are all humans and therefore have faults.

What you have attributed to Baba Jarnail Singh ji were his PERSONAL views. That does not make it Panthic Rehat Meryada.

Guru da Sikh,

I am sure shaheediyan will reply back to your answers that you are given to him.

I want to comment on specific point you raised:

(I will continue to edit this posting instead of replying at different places, until I answer all of your questions)

Before debating on this topic, allow me to share some important methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Most of the puratan samparda's believe that sri dasam granth is divided into three types of rachna:

Let me get this straight, you are going to present a lecture here based on somebody’s or some fictitious historical institutions’ BELIEFS without any historical & Gurbani evidence, and you want me to back up every claim with lots of proofs. And this is supposed to be a fair debate?

Do you believe that this methodology is / was also applicable to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

1. Dhur Ki Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - This rachna is Dhur Ki bani is the banis came from core heart of dasam guru maharaj or came from full anubhav parkash of sri dasam guru maharaj. For eg.. Banis like- Jaap Sahib, Sri Akaal Ustat, Shabad Hazaare, Gyan parbodh, Bachitar Natak.

2. Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji- This type of rachna is translations of previous compositions written by many tapavasi rishi, munis which in this care were translated by sri dasam patsah. For example- It's well known fact with in academics 405 tales in treh charitar are translated from previous various compositions, one granth being panch tantar, its also well known fact within in academics that many avtars from Chaubis Avtars compositions are directly translated by sri dasam patsah from Sri Bhagvad, Vishnu Puran.

Click on the link below and go to Page 44 read the Chaupai for yourself

http://www.dasamgranth.org/institute/dasam/pdf/v1_3.pdf

Please read the translations of stanzas 3, 4, 6 & especially 7. Your claim that these Avtars are TRANSLATIONS not AUTO-BIOGRAPHICAL writings is TOTALLY annihilated here.

You can clearly read that it is attributed to Dasam Patshah Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji as his previous life experiences, which is anti Gurmat anyway.

Let me translate Stanza 7 for all readers;

Then the omnipresent Kal (Death) became kind to me, and considering me as His servant became drenched in love and helped me REMEMBER ALL OF MY INCARNATIONS.

While you are at it, read Stanza 5 to see its anti Gurmat inference. Let me translate for all readers;

Kal (Death) is our Father, Devi Kalika is our Mother, my Mind is my Guru and my Desires are my Wife.

Compare this against Gurmat from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (page 167);

thoo(n) gur pithaa thoo(n)hai gur maathaa thoo(n) gur ba(n)dhhap maeraa sakhaa sakhaae ||3||

O Guru, You are my father. O Guru, You are my mother. O Guru, You are my relative, companion and friend. ||3||

(page 94);

maeraa maath pithaa gur sathigur pooraa gur jal mil kamal vigasai jeeo ||3||

The Guru, the Perfect True Guru, is my Mother and Father. Obtaining the Water of the Guru, the lotus of my heart blossoms forth. ||3||

3. Gur Asa Misrat Anubhadith Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji- This type of rachna means where one explain his/her own stance/beleif/thoughts/sidhant before compositions being translated kinda like commentary. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, sri guru gobind singh ji had this type of rachna as well, specifically in sri dasam granth sahib for example- composition named chandi di var reflects this type of rachna. If one studies chandi di var- sri guru gobind singh ji has given gurmat sidhant in the first(bhaugati ki var) and second pauri of chandi di var. Both pauries is Salutations (Namaskar) to Sri Akaal Purkh. Then if one looks at the third pauri, its preface of chandi di var. Finally then fourth pauri of Chandi Di Var is composition directly translated in punjabi taken from 757 stanza of source "Markandai Puran" all the way to last stanza of markandai puratan.

Both the mindset (one being pro and other being against sri dasam granth sahib) have couple of things in common, they are both on one extreme or another. If on one is sitting on extreme of rejection, insecurity, hindu paranoia, ignorance then other is sitting on extreme of deception, insecurities, shying away from facts because of their personal hindu paranoia that they would end up judging guru's mat by their own one line translations without studying any theological/methodological frame work, socio-religious, figures and movement contexts. Their dangerous mindsets are very very common.. it's just one is anti dasam granth sahib by using that mindset, and other using the same mindset is pro sri dasam granth sahib ji.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however they were included/translated/interpreted.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

Guru da Sikh,

I am sure shaheediyan will reply back to your answers that you are given to him.

I want to comment on specific point you raised:

Before debating on this topic, allow me to share some important methodological framework in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. Most of the puratan samparda's believe that sri dasam granth is divided into three types of rachna:

1. Dhur Ki Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji - This rachna is Dhur Ki bani is the banis came from core heart of dasam guru maharaj or came from full anubhav parkash of sri dasam guru maharaj. For eg.. Banis like- Jaap Sahib, Sri Akaal Ustat, Shabad Hazaare, Gyan parbodh, Bachitar Natak.

2. Sutantar Anubhadith Bani Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji- This type of rachna is translations of previous compositions written by many tapavasi rishi, munis which in this care were translated by sri dasam patsah. For example- It's well known fact with in academics 405 tales in treh charitar are translated from previous various compositions, one granth being panch tantar, its also well known fact within in academics that many avtars from Chaubis Avtars compositions are directly translated by sri dasam patsah from Sri Bhagvad, Vishnu Puran.

3. Gur Asa Misrat Anubhadith Rachna of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji- This type of rachna means where one explain his/her own stance/beleif/thoughts/sidhant before compositions being translated kinda like commentary. In Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji, sri guru gobind singh ji had this type of rachna as well, specifically in sri dasam granth sahib for example- composition named chandi di var reflects this type of rachna. If one studies chandi di var- sri guru gobind singh ji has given gurmat sidhant in the first(bhaugati ki var) and second pauri of chandi di var. Both pauries is Salutations (Namaskar) to Sri Akaal Purkh. Then if one looks at the third pauri, its preface of chandi di var. Finally then fourth pauri of Chandi Di Var is composition directly translated in punjabi taken from 757 stanza of source "Markandai Puran" all the way to last stanza of markandai puratan.

Both the mindset (one being pro and other being against sri dasam granth sahib) have couple of things in common, they are both on one extreme or another. If on one is sitting on extreme of rejection, insecurity, hindu paranoia, ignorance then other is sitting on extreme of deception, insecurities, shying away from facts because of their personal hindu paranoia that they would end up judging guru's mat by their own one line translations without studying any theological/methodological frame work, socio-religious, figures and movement contexts. Their dangerous mindsets are very very common.. it's just one is anti dasam granth sahib by using that mindset, and other using the same mindset is pro sri dasam granth sahib ji.

By keeping that framework in mind, this debate should continue forward. No one is arguing over the fact that certain compositions of sri dasam granth are not written by sri guru gobind singh ji himself however including/translated/interpreted by sri guru gobind singh ji.

Lets discuss the possibility of sri guru gobind singh ji maharaj translating/interpreting previous compositions/rachna by previous gurmukhs/rishi/manuis and included them in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib addressing the socio-economic/panj vikars issues that human faces by giving examples, why can't this be possibility? Historically speaking this possibility clearly proven to us by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji including writing of Bhagats (previous compositions) in to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji addressing that importance of spirituality- naam simran/seva.

Please refute above possibility cannot be possible.

Also to question, why not include everything in sri guru granth sahib maharaj? its bit silly.

Logically speaking not that i comparing but logically speaking isn't in the school there are different subject text books for different cateogory/subject? for eg- math, biology, chemistry, physics are categorized under "Science" and subjects like - philosophy, psychology, anthropology, religious studies are categorized under "Arts"

If worldly studies can be categorized, then why sikh scriptures can not be categorized for spirituality- sri guru granth sahib ji and to address socio-religious/ panj vikar issues- Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

I assumed that you were going to be some NEUTRAL arbitrator not a biased one as you just proved.

Now, why is it that no solid proper answers / explanations / Gurmat proofs are available for any one of your proposals. Discussion is when both parties have the right to ask questions and are obligated to receive answers. In this case, seems to me that your camp is only interested in questions and not providing answers. I am starting to wonder that majority of the forum members debating on this issue either have not read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or have only read a few pages of Dasam Granth

I will post a complete rebuttal to your points once your camp has provided satisfactory answers to my COMPLETE SET of questions posted.

Piara Singh Padam's translation is wrong in many places - he himself admits this. That is why it is best to rely on the original source.

The "Bipran ki reet" line is not from Sri Dasam Granth.

Clarification: It is from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji. And you consider every literature attributed to Dasam Patshah as Dasam Granth.

I'm a bit busy with the 1984 programs this weekend, but will reply in more detail later.

Bipran ki Reet comes from Amrit Kirtan attributed to Dasam Patshah ! if that is what you are eluding too !

The reason I asked about the 'Bipran ki reet' passage (you're wrong by the way) will become clear soon.

Darshan Ragi has probably never read Sri Dasam Granth. I lost all respect for him since he started spreading lies and showed his ignorance. Why did he sing so many Shabads from Sri Dasam Granth in the past and why are his CDs of those shabads still on sale?

Prof. Darshan Singh has admitted that he did do Kirtan from Dasam Granth ONLY up to the time when he was unaware about the complete meaning of this Granth. Once he understood that, he immediately stopped. Is there anything wrong with that? You make mistakes in life when you don’t have the knowledge about something, but you correct them when you get to know!

As far his CDs go, he was and is still under contract with T Series people for marketing rights of those CDs. T Series is a business and simply after making money and could care less about any principles being violated. So they continue to market them, especially when people are more interested in controversial issues.

Consider this concept, if my father and / or your grand father ended up being alcoholics simply because of their lack of knowledge that daily drinking can lead to this menace, don’t I have the right to stop drinking (if I were)?

Rozana spokesman is only good for one thing.......bear in mind Joginder Sahni was excommunicated by the Akaal Takhat.

Do you seriously believe that Akal Takhat is independent in the last few decades?

Even the Jathedars, are ignorant (I don’t mean in any disrespectful way). On May 11, I was listening to Radio Shere-Punjab’s live discussion with one of these Jathedars (Nandgarh from Damdama Sahib). He stated on the radio that he was unaware of any news about Dasam Granth & Sri Guru Granth Sahib being bonded together as ONE Granth and that two of such Birs were sitting at Takhat Keshgarh Sahib. He said he read about in newspaper on May 11, 2009, exactly 5 days after the news broke and debates were underway in North America and Europe and condemnations were pouring in from all over the world. He made this statement 4 days after SGPC had already instituted a penal to probe this incident.

All Jathedars are political appointees by Badal family in Punjab for their own political agenda. Otherwise why would head of religious institution SGPC will be campaigning for the daughter in law of a political figure?

Rozana Spokesman has openly challenged the political monopoly of Badal family and to silence Joginder Singh, Badal being a clever politician he is, used the religious stick to whack this man. It is a common tool. It gives you the results you want politically (to silence your opponents) and never take the blame for that yourself ! Clever, eh !

I think that "Guru Da Sikh" is the same person on Sikh Sangat forum who goes by the name The Khalsa Fauj.

Nothing rational about Guru Da Sikh's approach. He starts off by trying to offend other members here. When ever he talks of Sants he add quotes around their name like this: Hari "Singh" Randawewalay. What is he trying to prove by doing this? It's obvious he wants to offend others here. Then when I didn't say anything to him offensively, he makes an attack on Nanaksar by saying they have alot of scandles in their Thaaths because they read Charitro Pakyaan. He again did this to offend us. When I replied similarly by pointing out that Kala Afghana charges of sexual misconduct, he had a history of pedophilia he conveniently chose ignored it. Such double standards. Such people cannot be debated with.

Well according to Gurbani, making unfounded allegations against others is NINDYA. You just violated this Sikhi Code of Conduct.

Let me state that I am an individual Amritdhari Sikh who simply wants to make sure that people, especially Sikhs, follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in entirety, without exception.

As for Khalsa Fauj, thanks for guiding me and others to that blog! Based on the fact that they may have irritated you in the same way I have (unwillingly) goes to show, may be they & I have some views in common ! I will check out their blogs too.

Guru Da Sikh

Your inference that it is the Chola that makes the Bhrahmgiani is so resoundingly rational, with such little trace of ignorace that I am forced to bow to your 'wisdom'.

Of course, anyone that disagrees with you is irrational; I reiterate, dogma is anathema to rationality.

Can you supply some sort of documented proof from Gurbani or Panthic Rehat Meryada that requires a Sikh to be defined by his attire only, especially the Chola. Where does it says that sants can only be defined by Cholas? Guru ji actually rejected this concept of being “religious” based on your outer look and dress code. Read Gurbani (page 476) and Guru ji says:

aasaa ||

gaj saadtae thai thai dhhotheeaa thiharae paaein thag ||

galee jinhaa japamaaleeaa lottae hathh nibag ||

oue har kae sa(n)th n aakheeahi baanaaras kae t(h)ag ||1||

aisae sa(n)th n mo ko bhaavehi ||

ddaalaa sio paeddaa gattakaavehi ||1|| rehaao ||

baasan maa(n)j charaavehi oopar kaat(h)ee dhhoe jalaavehi ||

basudhhaa khodh karehi dhue choolaeh saarae maanas khaavehi ||2||

oue paapee sadhaa firehi aparaadhhee mukhahu aparas kehaavehi ||

sadhaa sadhaa firehi abhimaanee sagal kutta(n)b ddubaavehi ||3||

jith ko laaeiaa thith hee laagaa thaisae karam kamaavai ||

kahu kabeer jis sathigur bhaettai punarap janam n aavai ||4||2||

Aasaa:

They wear loin cloths, three and a half yards long, and triple-wound sacred threads.

They have rosaries around their necks, and they carry glittering jugs in their hands.

They are not called Saints of the Lord - they are thugs of Benares. ||1||

Such 'saints' are not pleasing to me;

they eat the trees along with the branches. ||1||Pause||

They wash their pots and pans before putting them on the stove, and they wash the wood before lighting it.

They dig up the earth and make two fireplaces, but they eat the whole person! ||2||

Those sinners continually wander in evil deeds, while they call themselves touch-nothing saints.

They wander around forever and ever in their self-conceit, and all their families are drowned. ||3||

He is attached to that, to which the Lord has attached him, and he acts accordingly.

Says Kabeer, one who meets the True Guru, is not reincarnated again. ||4||2||

Do all AmritDhari Sikhs wear Cholas to work in Europe or North America? If they don’t does that make them non-Sikhs even if they do their Nitnem and follow Sikhi Code of Conduct at all times?

You are so narrow minded in your views that you hone in on one single word and lose the actual concept being discussed. In order to accommodate more Gurmat Gyan, you will need to open up your mind.

I regard Guru Granth Sahib ji as being the complete Guru of the Sikhs. It doesn't require any other granths for this completeness.

I posted an answer to every one of your questions, in the same order with detail and backed it with excerpts from Gurbani along with page numbers. Please follow the same pattern so that everybody can see what you have to present?

May be you don’t have the answers?

However, this does not mean that Dasam Granth Sahib and Bhai Gurdass ji's Vaars are not exceptionally important in Sikh dharm.

By making that statement, you will open up a can of worms for all Sikhs. When Guru ji clearly states that

sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false. Does that still leave you room for other literature to seek knowledge? You said Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE then what is it that you are looking for in literature outside of a COMPLETE SATGURU?

1. I would like specific information from you on why you think Bhai Gurdass ji's vaars are flawed.

This is in contradiction to the belief held by the rest of the panth that the vaars are the keys to understanding Guru Granth Sahib ji. I would appreciate some hard historical evidence from your part.

I hope you would stop trying to MISGUIDE the forum by accusing me of using or trying to associate words that are not listed on ANY of my postings. One such word you accused me of using is FLAWED, when referring to Bhai Gurdass ji’s vaars. I have clearly answered this question here and on the following link: http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?sh...11073&st=20

2. There is no purataan source anywhere that indicates that a disagreement between Baba Sri Chand ji and Guru ji caused him to split from mainstream sikhs and begin the Udashi samprada. Purataan sources all show cordial and very respectful relations between him and the Gurus. the idea of discord between them is a product of the extreme anti-Hindu sentiment of some modern day scholars who reject anything that even remotely resembles Hindu practice (even if it is not). Please provide proof for this from purataan sources.

With all due respect, it seems to me that you believe more in some unauthenticated historical records as proof rather than Gurbani. The fact that Guru Nanak did not see any of his own sons fit for the Gurta Gaddi speaks volumes. Since you believe in Sakhis you may have heard about the one where Baba Lakhmi Chand (Guru Nanak Dev ji’s son) visited Guru Ram Das ji and insulted him by stating that the current Guru had taken the Gurta Gaddi which belonged to Guru Nanak Dev ji’s sons by birth right. In the same sakhi, he is depicted making derogatory comments about Guru Ram Das ji’s long beard.

Remember even in Guru Nanak dev ji’s times, nearly 30 million (3 crore) people became followers of Sikhism. But Lakhmi Chand decided to follow the path of Udassie which was totally rejected and discarded by Guru Nanak Dev ji himself (read Sidh Gost Bani). Just think about the logic in your argument and the concept that a son who decides to do exactly the opposite to his father’s teachings, has CORDIAL relationship with his father ! WOW !

For your convenience I am posting the same questions again and please answer them in the same way I did and provide your PROOFS based on Gurbani alone.

I have taken all this time to answer all of your questions. Lets see if you have the same patience and courage as I did to answer some of my questions;

1. Do you think Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is Complete Guru. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

2. If not, then prove it.

3. If yes, then what is missing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that Guru Gonind Singh ji needed a separate Granth for Sikhs. Please explain.

4. Do you believe that Dasam Patshah recited the whole Bir in Damdama Sahib and was written by Bhai Mani Singh ji. If so why was not his own writings included in it. Its not that those writings were missing !

5. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

6. Post a COMPLETE LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

I will have about 8 more follow up questions once you have answered these. This way you & I will be on even terms, LOL !

Bhul Chuk Maaf, Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

LOL

Just let them learn by spending a few months of arguing with the blockhead and attempting to read the long-winded word-salad that these people think constitutes an argument.

I don't know why it is, but none of these Kala-Aghanis seem to be able to make a point without writing an 84 lakh word essay and using 108,000 words that are either obsolete or completely unnecessary. It's as if some poor fool has been forced to type randomly selected words from a 1920's English dictionary while sitting on the loo and trying to pass the remains of last night's extra-mirchi vindaloo.

I just wonder if the sangat here will try to reinvent the wheel and invite debate from the Ram Raiyas, Dhir Malias, and maybe the Naths and Siddhas too. Hell, why not get some kurimars in on this too?

Regards,

K.

You may know a few more fancy words in English, but what good are those words in your mind when every time you post a question or answer, there is nothing but disrespect for every Sikh Scholar or forum member.

A person who is either incapable or unwilling to answer other peoples’ genuine questions with answers based on Gurmat of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji loses the right to call himself a Sikh. That is what seems to me you want to do. Remember to be a Sikh is NOT a birthright but a right you earn when you follow Gurmat exactly as stated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji !

Amardeep, listen to the answer given by Sant Jagjit Singh Ji about Chandi.

Why not tell him to read Dasam Granth analysis written and presented on the website by Baba Virsa Singh ji. Why now tell him to go to somebody’s personal views, which may be influenced by some institutional or personal agenda !

Randip Singh Ji, jokes aside, these guys need to be dealt with.

I agree with you whole heartedly. Let see if you can do this intellectually by presenting proofs from Sri Guru Grath Sahib ji’s Gurbani. Remember Guru ji cautioned us about anything else outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji; (Page 920)

sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee || Without the True Guru, other songs are false.

If published in every newspaper, please provide links so we can see for ourselves.

Here is the link to the news recently about Bhai Hari Singh ji’s planned debate in New York about Dasam Granth; http://rozanaspokesman.com/fullpage.aspx?v...=27&pview=7

Taksali Singhs are taught the correct arth of Dasam Bani anyway, so either they weren't Taksali or you're lying. There is nothing wrong with Charitro Pakhyan, only in your mind. I take it you've been reading the incorrect translations, or just believing everything that Darshan ragi says.

First of all I hope you learn to show respect for a person who has served the Panth Khalsa as Jathedar of Sri Akal Takhat sahib during the most difficult time and continue to do so by simply addressing him Professor Darshan Singh ji, instead of Darshan ragi.

Second, there are no translations of Dasam Granth done by Prof. Darshan Singh ji rather he is simply stating the facts from Translation posted on the internet by Baba Virsa Singh ji’s website. Prof. Ji is pointing out all writings in Dasam Granth that are either contradictory to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or are erotic in nature without any teaching, hence serving no purpose at all.

Which Taksal are we referring to: Bhai Ram Singh ji’s FACTION or Harnam Singh Dhuma’s FACTION. Remember these factions fought over the control of assets & succession plan set in by Baba Thakur Singh and did not even comply with his last documented wishes faxed to Akal Takhat and verified by then Akal Takhat Jathedar.

There are a few on here who can answer your doubts on Dasam Bani - go ahead and list them.

I have posted my answers at the following link” http://www.sikhawareness.com//index.php?showtopic=11434

and are waiting approval by Admin before posting. I have posted some preliminary questions about Dasam Granth and will post more quesstions at the same link once answers to my initial questions are received.

You didn't answer the qusetion - which Granth has the 'Bipran ki reet' paragraph?

Bipran Ki Reet paragraph is from Dasam Granth. I am sure if you would have read any part of the Dasam Granth you would not have to ask me. I am sure that you have read my other postings to understand what Bipran ki Reet means. It is exactly where we are heading today and in the near future if we continue to walk away from the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Thanks silence ji i will try and downlaod it.

There is a similiar vaar in Bhai Gurdass vaara with the same wording where the Ramayana is mentioned by name:

ਰਾਮਾਇਣੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਅਟਲੁ ਸੇ ਉਧਰੇ ਜੋ ਆਏ ਸਰਣਾ ।

Ramayan (the story of Ram) is ever firm (in the mind of people) and whosoever seeks shelter (in it) goes across (the world ocean).

http://www.searchgurbani.com/main.php?word...31&pauri=18

the context is the life of ram chander as mentioned in the ramayana and the same vaar goes on to say that Ram Chander is nirmal purakh, a pure being.

When reading Bhai Gurdass ji’s vaars, it is important to know the following;

1. These were NOT inducted into Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, probably because these can sometime be ‘misleading’ to a person not because that is what Bhai sahib ji intended, because we sometime can not dig deep into the teaching being targeted.

2. These have been used by the Mahants who controlled Gurdwaras from 1849 until Singh Sabha Gurdwara Sudhar movement liberated these religious places. These Mahants used Bhai Gurdas ji’s vaars to install Brahman Meryada (Bipran ki Reet) by taking only a few starting lines of each selected vaar to spread Hindu mythology.

3. Normally Bhai Gurdas ji will give a whole bunch of examples in the start of the vaars (even from Hindu Mythology) and normally the last line will give Gurmat teaching.

In this case the teaching is as follows in the last line;

ਜਸ ਅਪਜਸ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਿਡਰ ਡਰਣਾ ॥੧੮॥

jas apajas vichi nidar daranaa ॥18॥

Dharma-abiding people earn glory in the world and those who undertake evil adventures get infamy.

Meaning, the Hindu god Ram and Ravna were also involved in wars but any person who follows Gurmat will earn honour and all Manmukhs will get infamy.