Guru da Sikh

very true, eg. the "Ram Katha jug jug atal..." line- the translation completely misrepresents the meaning, giani thakur singh vyakhia completely cleared it up

vaheguru shukar hai

So what you are saying is that the complete chapter translations written by Dasam Granth believers, when starts to project Guru Gobind Singh as worshipping Devi, Devtas, Shiva, other deities, is NOT in COMPLETE CONTEXT and Giani Takhur Singh, who will only recite a certain stanza knows the COMPLETE meaning of it ! Can you see the flaw in your argument?

Reading in Punjabi rather than English translations, and listening to Katha by Mahapursh, there isn't 'ustat' of devi/devte. Respect is certainly given and they are praised for whatever good qualities they possess (the same goes for all the jodhey/warriors mentioned in Dasam Bani), but ustat is always for Akaal.

If we took single lines without placing them in context, (So in your words people who translated the whole Dasam Granth in Punjabi did NOT read the whole translations. How long are you going to keep up with these excuses of Mahanpursh & Giani explanations? People that do the translation simply present what is written there in simple language and now you are going to fall back on some individuals rather than Guru Granth Sahib ji)

Are we talking about the same Mahapursh like ‘sach khand vaasi’ Baba Thakur Singh ‘ji’ of Damdami Taksal who continuously lied to the Khalsa Panth for 21 years about Baba Jarnail Singh’s shaheedi in 1984. Keep this in mind that this so called mahanpurkh did this while he was sitting in the hazoori of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. And you are going to believe the translations and interpretations done by these HABITUAL LIARS you call ‘Sant’. Is that NOT beadbi of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji? Think about the word Sant in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and this old dude’s character.

then it could be argued that there is 'ustat' of Aurangzeb in Zafarnama.......

EDIT: LISTEN TO THE NEW Q&A with Sant Jagjit Singh Ji - they answer your question perfectly.

Ah, SikhSangat

What a bunch of retards, srsly. You can't expect retards to be rational.

On a serious note though, they are blinded by their new ideology, dreamt up in student's unions in Canada and the UK, and labour under the delusion that only their ideas and no other interpretation that has come about in the last 500 years is valid. Dogma is anathema to rationality.

Thank you Randip Singh ji. It is exactly what I have been trying to tell this forum that Guru ji taught us to use the Sword of Spiritual Wisdom from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. But these fellows only believe in filthy, foul and threatening language. Prime example, look at the replying post by cul right here. They just can not come up with any rational & logical points from Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to prove or disapprove any concepts. That’s because majority of these have not read more than 10 pages of Gurbani and that probably too without any analysis at all. All they do is listen to anything somebody wearing a chola and round dastar will say. Somehow that attire is supposed to be some sort of a STAMP to prove that you are a Sikh, yet not even once in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji any of this dress code specified. When we read Gurbani with one focus, that being to gain Guru’s Gyan, then we start to learn that majority of the time Gurbani addresses our mind and not body. Hence, there is need to change our thoughts and eventually our actions. I am sure if everybody could understand this concept and implement in our lives, we will have so much respect for our Guru ji and Sikhs WORLDWIDE !

Just to let you know, and I am sure you have noticed it too, that my responses are being censored by the administration now. I posted answers to all questions posted by the Sheedyan nearly 10 hours ago and those are yet to be posted and I suspect that parts they feel that these fellows are either incapable or unable to answer will be deleted. Even though all of my answers are backed by actual shabads from Gurbani along with page numbers, I doubt it will be posted uncut.

Admin Note: Please check your pm- Guru Da Sikh

great thread, i will look fwd to the answers from him and look fwd for good spirited debate from both sides.

To all reading Guru Da Sikh responses, please keep in mind that my responses are the ONLY ones being CENSORED !

Admin Note: Please check your pm message

Lets tidy up this Evangelists ominpresence over the forum - and as he is so knowledgable - lets focus on his gyaan and ask him relevant questions rather than allowing him to curse every post he reads. It will also allow us to understand exactly where he stands in terms of beliefs, making for a better discussion, here are just a few basic things to get us started:

Q1 - What was/is the need for Khalsa and for Singh?

A1 - Khalsa word has been used by both Bhagat Kabeer ji (SGGS Page 655) reads khu kbIr jn Bey Kwlsy pRym Bgiq ijh jwnI ]4]3] kahu kabeer jan bheae khaalasae praem bhagath jih jaanee ||4||3|| Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||. There is also hand written Hukamnama from Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji where he uses the designation Khalsa for his Sikhs.

So Khalsa's foundation has been laid by Bhagat bani and from Guru Nanak Dev ji. It took nearly 230 years to FINISH this beautiful creation we call Khalsa. Khalsa was created to proagate Humanity as God intended and is preached in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, to protect the helpless and help the needy and to show a straight forward way to meet God. Khalsa is the intitution while Singh is the individual member of this most wonderful and unique and everlasting institution.

Q2 - Have you read any purtatan rehitnamai, if so which ones, what are your thoughts on these?

A2 - I have read purtatan rehitnamai book by Piara Singh Padam ji. But when I read his book called Dasam Granth Darshan, and where he states that the Chritar about Bibi Anoop Kaur is Guru Gobind Singh ji`s autobiography, I lost all respect for him. I believe that these purtatan rehitnamai are condesned versions of Sikh teachings prepared by Sikhs of the time under very diffcult times when they were hunted down and executed in large numbers, and they did not have the time to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, like we do today. However, I believe that complete Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the ULTIMATE REHATNAMA of all Sikhs because it is complete and does not have any body else`s views except my Satguru`s. So when in doubt about the validity of any other sources I always ask Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Q3 - Is there any source of Sikh ithihaas you can recommend to us which is free from manipulation - or should we discount all Sikh ithihaas?

A3 - First, majority of the Sikh itihaas was never written by Sikhs themselves as first hand witnesses. I have read Ratan Singh Bhangu ji`s writings where he himself admits that it is what he heard from his forefathers. On top of that, none of his writings or any other Sikh literature has ever been protected by Sikhs like they protected Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Here again, issues like Gur Gaddi Meryada, and some historical scenes are decsribed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji itself.

Lets look at 1984 Ghalughara. I had attended Baba Jarnail Singh ji`s diwans, was there in Punjab at that time. Was very close to Bhai Gurjeet Singh ji (convenor of All India Sikh Student Federation who was engaged to Baba ji`s niece in village Rode and was personal bodygaurd of Baba ji). He mananged to escape on the last day to Pakistan, after Baba ji took Shahidi, and when came back to Punjab carried out over dozen operations near Moga. Was eventually cuaght and killed in a fake encounter. I was also close to Bhai Harbhajan Singh Mand (one of the Nine Member Pathic Committee). Faith dealt him the same card. The day he was picked up by CID from Moga bus stand , I got a call from Moga to here in Canada, but nothing we could do. He was `executed`the next day. POINT here is that I have seen lot first hand. Now when I read this ONLY 25 year old Itihaas, I am shocked at the various versions printed out by various so called `Sikh Intellectuals`despite the fact majority of this is documented in Video & Audio. So how can we be sure that everything we read as Sikh Itihaas is totally true. SO the only way is to test aginst Gurmat. I it passes the Gurmat test then accept it. I don`t think there is any single source of sikh historical reference that has not been attacked by Anti-Sikh coalition.

Q4 - Where did Singhs receive the ferocity they displayed on the battlefield as documented by their enemies, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib?

A4 - Dasam Granth supporters will have you believe that this comes from Dasam Granth. Well that is NOT the case. Remember MoolMantar. Nirbhau & Nirvair. Well when you follow Gurbani`s teachings in your daily life, you are enlightened with Guru`s Gyan. This starts to remove the curtain of ego that exists between you and God, who lives in your heart. Once you adopt Gurbani teachings then you start to become like God himself, because now both of you have the same qualities. You learn to live life in his Hukam. When you start to become like God (Nirmal), you become Nirbhau. Hence the quality of fearlessness, whhich is the basis of bravery.

Remember Guru ji says (Page 1105): salok kabeer || gagan dhamaamaa baajiou pariou neesaanai ghaao || khaeth j maa(n)ddiou sooramaa ab joojhan ko dhaao ||1|| sooraa so pehichaaneeai j larai dheen kae haeth || purajaa purajaa katt marai kabehoo n shhaaddai khaeth ||2||2||

Remember Guru ji says (Page 1410): jo tho praem khaelan kaa chaao ||sir dhhar thalee galee maeree aao ||eith maarag pair dhhareejai ||sir dheejai kaan n keejai ||20||

Remember, if you follow the standard Dasam Granthi template that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji makes you a Saint, and Dasam Granh makes you a Soldier, then may be EXPLAIN to me the following;

a) Wars that Guru Hargobind Singh ji fought

Shahidi that Guru Arjan Dev ji took

c) Bhai Mati Daas, Bhai Sati Daas, Bhai Dyala ji, and Guru Teg Bahadur ji`s shaheedi took place before this so called Dasam Granth came into being.

Q5 - Do you believe in the SGPC/Panthic rehit maryada? If not, what do you suggest should bind the large part of the Panth together?

A5 - Before I answer this question have a bird`s eye view on the Sikh History just prior to its acceptance. Sikh Gurudwaras were under Masand, Mahants, Nirmalay & Udasey, including Darbar Sahib, Amritsar. May be you heard about the Singh Sabha Lehar, that liberated these Gurudwaras from these anti-Sikh coalition by paying with their lives starting in early 1900s. Those Masand, Mahants, Nirmalay & Udasey, are the same people that prevented Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib ji from entering Darbar Sahib, Amritsar and also had installed Hindu Idols in eight different places in Darbar Sahib Parkarma. They were literally following Hindu Brahmin`s Meryada (hence the phrase Bipran ki Reet), which is still being carried out exactly the same way at Takhat Hazoor Sahib. Anyway, a code of conduct had to be assembled in order to install Sikhi Rehat Meryada. But the Sikh scholars faced lots of resistance from people who were affected by this Bipran (Brahmin) ki Reet (Meryada) and were influential enough to NOT allow a complete implementation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji`s teachings as the Sikh Rehat Meryada. It is due to this haggling that it took nearly 14 years to come up with a single booklet less than 100 pages in size. Obviously we still have the flaws. For example, look at the word `Sanskar`to describe the rehatmeryada at Birth, Naming, Baptism, Marriage, and Death. Yet the word which is more closely related with the Brahmins in Banaras does NOT APPEAR EVEN ONCE in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

So I follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji`s teachings as my complete Sikh Rehat Meryada.

Q6 - Do you believe any of Sri Dasam Guru Darbar is Gurbani? If so, which parts?

A7 - I believe, when we do Ardass we ask for something very special and that is `Bibek Daan`meaning an intellect to decide wrong from right. Guru ji himself prays for us on page (641) haar pariou suaamee kai dhuaarai dheejai budhh bibaekaa || rehaao || I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||. Hence, we should perform Gurmat`s litmus test on every word that is written in this so called Dasam Granth. What ever tests true, should be separated and complied into a True Dasam Granth. Rest should be filtered. I have read all of this literature and performing the same test myself and based on that believe with cetainty that Chritro Pakhyan, Chaubis Avtaar, Chandi Chritar, Hekaytaan, Bachitaar Natak could NEVER have been written by Guru Gobind Singh ji. Rest Iam working on one line at a time.

Q7 - Do you understand the difference between secularism and spiritualism?

A7 - Lets define them first for those who don`t know what these words mean;

Spiritualism is a dualist metaphysical theory that there exist both physical matter and spirit.

Secularism is the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

Lets examine both of these in light of Gurmat: Spiritualism is certainly supported by Gurbani, as the concept of Mind and Body. According to Gurbani this body is created a place for the Soul (Mind) (man too jot saroop hain) to reside.

Secularism is accepted as per Gurmat, but in a slighlty modified way. In a traditional way, Political & Governmental institutions can use religion as a tool (that is what is being done by the current Akali Government in Punjab) to protect and implement their own agendas. However, in Sikhi, this concept is to have political and governmental institutions be dictated by the Gurmat Rehat Meryada of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Hence the concept of Miri & Piri. You noticed that Akal Takhat is located outside the access gate (Darshani Deori) to Harmandir Sahib ji. So that the Jathedars (our religious leaders) and Sikh Political institutions (SGPC, Akali Party, AISSF, ISYF etc.) can SEEK GUIDANCE from Gurmat Gyan in Gurudwar. In order to hurt somebody in the house, your enemy has to enter through this door which is to be guided by these current appointees. Instead they have run inside the Harmandir and taken shleter for their own personal gains and agendas.

Q8 - Could you explain to us the concept of Miri Piri and Shakti Bhakti.

A8 - The fact that Gurbani teaches us to be a perfect living being without any flaws, only full of qualities described in Gurbani leads us to True Bhagati. Guru ji says in Jap ji: vin gun keethae bhagath n hoe || Bhagati is only complete when you acquire qualities (such as Sat, Santokh, daya, Daram, Dheeraj).

Like I said above, this makes you fearless and bravery (Shakti) arises out of this complete set of qualities. Hence, there is no need for any other Granth. Satgur Mera Poora - Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is COMPLETE.

Q9 - Do you believe in the institution of Khande da Amrit and the events of 1699?

A9 - Actually it is called Khande di Pahul. As to what happened inside the tent Guru ji set up to dress up the Panj Piaras is ONLY known to Guru ji. Rest is all speculation by Babas, so called Sants etc. The fact that Sikh was put through his final test of willing to sacrifice his or her life for Gurbani principles, and passed with flying colors and was awarded the Degree of Singh so that he or she could join the institution we know as Khalsa. Like I said before, I have taken Khande di Pahul and pray to God that it stays intact till my last breath !

Q10 - Why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji Sache Patshah create the Panj Pyare, what purpose/role did/do they serve?

A10 - So whenever it came time to implement any of Gurbani`s principles (Piri), these will guide the Khalsa Panth, provided they are True Panj Piare, meaning every single moment of their lives should be exactly as per Gurmat. But look at what so called Sikhs do today. Go running after so called Sant Mahan Purkh BrahmGiani Vidya Martand etc. as a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. That is not Guru Gobind Singh ji`s teachings. If we were to get five Sikhs whose life is exactly as per Guru ji prescribed, then they can lead us out of this mess with the lantern of Gurmat in their hands !

Q11 - What are your thoughts on Mul Mantar and Gurmantar?

A11 - Moolmantar is from Ik Onkar to Gurparsad. Rest of the Gurbani is Gurmantar.

Mool means Root (Origin). The whole Universe originated from ONLY ONE GOD. He is completly described in this MoolMantar.

Gurmanatar - Gur means Guru and Mantar means Advise (salah). Gurbani is Guru`s Advise. That is why when we read Sohila Guru ji never gives us Hukam but REQUESTS us; Read Page 13 & 205; karo baena(n)thee sunahu maerae meethaa sa(n)th ttehal kee baelaa || Listen, my friends, I beg of you: now is the time to serve the Saints!

Q12 - Do you accept the writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji as cannonical?

A12 - They are helpful in understanding Gurbani, especially when the vaars elaborate on Hindu rituals and mythology. But they were NOT included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. I do NOT agree with the notion that these are called Key to Guru Granth Sahib ji. Because Satguru ji says (page 124) sathigur hathh ku(n)jee horath dhar khulai naahee gur poorai bhaag milaavaniaa ||7|| The key is in the hands of the True Guru; no one else can open this door. By perfect destiny, He is met. ||7|| Page (205) jis kaa grihu thin dheeaa thaalaa ku(n)jee gur soupaaee || And the one whose home it is, has locked it up, and given the key to the Guru. Page (1237) gur ku(n)jee paahoo nival man kot(h)aa than shhath || The key of the Guru opens the lock of attachment, in the house of the mind, under the roof of the body. Page (1237) again: naanak gur bin man kaa thaak n ougharrai avar n ku(n)jee hathh ||1|| O Nanak, without the Guru, the door of the mind cannot be opened. No one else holds the key in hand. ||1||

Q13 - What role does kirtan play in 'the way of the Sikh'?

A13 - Kirtan in my personal view is the MOST essential aspect of a Sikh`s daily life, provided you take the time to understand the Gurbani you are singing or listening to. I do it myself and my kids do it too. Without understanding Gurbani, it becomes mere entertainment for some. Once you understand a Gurbani Shabad, then sing it yourself in a raag, you will feel drenched in love for your Guru & God and that is when you end up saying Wah Guru !

Q14 - Are you aware of the roles the Nirmalai, Udasis, Nihangs, Rababis, Dhadis etc have played in Sikh history - is not a coincidence that these and many other unique traditions all agree on the very things that you and Afghana challenge?

A14 - Lets split this into Four parts:

Nirmalai - These are simply Brahmins from Banaris in Sikhi attire. Prime example one staunch supporter of so called Dasam Granth - SWAMI Brahm Dev (see him on youtube). These are the same people that Gurbani rejected & discarded their views of exploitation according to Vedas & Shastars. When they felt their `source of income (exploitation)` threatened by Gurmat Gyan for the ordinary folks, they decided to take matter into their own hands. They studied Guru Granth Sahib ji in detail, understood it and created this Dasam Granth as a parallel to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It is the same policy today`s modern warfare system uses: Understand your enemy`s source of strength, attack and destroy it. The most common reason why most Sikhs fall prey to this plan is that very cleverly these Nirmalas used stanzas at the start and end of various chapters that will sometime look and sound similar to the ones from Gurbani. But when you read the complete chapters carefully, it becomes obvious that its nothing but a sugar coated poison pill. DON`T LET ME CONVINCE YOU BUT READ FOR YOURSELF THE WHOLE so called DASAM GRANTH and see for yourself.

Udaseye: - This sect was started by the two sons of Guru Nanak Dev ji out of resentment when Bhai Lehna ji was given Gurta Gaddi and called Guru Angand Dev ji. One of the sons became a hermit and started this sect. Since people had so much respect for Guru ji and by default respected these two sons. Even today you can see this sect perform acts exactly as the Jogis and Sadhus of Guru Nanak ji`s times that Guru ji himself rejected in Sidh Gost Bani. They started this sect as a challenge to Guru Nanak ji so how can their acts be considered as some sort of sewa to Sikhism. They are the enemy from within !

Dhadis - From Sixth Patshahi onwards, these Dhadis were there to remind the Sikhs of their History. Unfortunately, now a days they have also fallen prey by simply singing whatever is available to them without testing against Gurmat, since these people are not very interested in Gurmat Veechar.

Rababi - Well, what can I say. Kaljug mein Kirtan Pardhana. And the beauty of the Raags is manifold when a Rabab plays in a Kirtan darbar.

Are you even familiar with Prof Sahib Singhs opions on the above issues? YES

I have taken all this time to answer all of your questions. Lets see if you have the same patience and courage as I did to answer some of my questions;

1. Do you think Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is Complete Guru. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

2. If not, then prove it.

3. If yes, then what is missing in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji that Guru Gonind Singh ji needed a separate Granth for Sikhs. Please explain.

4. Do you believe that Dasam Patshah recited the whole Bir in Damdama Sahib and was written by Bhai Mani Singh ji. If so why was not his own writings included in it. Its not that those writings were missing !

5. Do you believe that All Gurus were one soul (jot) and different bodies. Yes or No and explain based on Gurbani.

6. Post a LIST OF TEACHINGS that are missing from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji but are only available from so called Dasam Granth.

I will have about 8 more follow up questions once you have answered these. This way you & I will be on even terms, LOL !

I WILL LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU DIRECTLY AND PLEASE NO INTERFERENCE FROM OTHERS SINCE WE ARE HAVING A VERY CIVILIZED DISCUSSION.

Bhul Chuk Maaf, Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Dhanvaad Jeeo.

Guru Da Sikh,

Lets deal with one thing at a time.

Please create a thread under formal debate section where you must provide reasons why you think charitpokhian is not part of sri dasam granth. Again just to remind you one liner bold statements are not allowed especially against sri dasam granth. You must back up your claims with one puratan source or at least logical reasoning.

Everything will be moderated so sentiments of members on this forum are not hurt.

I will few things to share regarding treh charitar as well that will help people clear misunderstanding against treh charitar. But first we seriously like to see what you have against it? Not one liner bold statements but atleast with one puratan source or logical reasoning.

Please create a thread on this as we are going off-topic in this thread.

Your point is well taken. I will present my questions from Charitro Pkhyan. You can go ahead and start a thread and name it right fully so "Charitro Pakhyan - Dasam Granth". I will post exactly what has been translated by Dasam Granth supporters and will like people to tell me why it should be accepted as Dasam Patshah Gurbani. I will present my arguments based on Gurbani why it can NOT be the creation of Guru Gobind Singh ji. Just make sure that you will act as an independent arbitrator and will NOT censor my reasoning

Fateh!

If someone enters your house and starts slandering your father, it is weakness that makes you throw them out or is it respect for your parent?

I am Amritdhari Sikh and adopted Guru Gobind Singh ji as my father from the day I was baptised. How do you think I feel when a literature that depicts my father as an adulterous man, not like the Guru he has been to all of us today. Don't I have the right to reject such literature and present my arguments in a formal way. I was about to post a link to the GobindSadan.org website of baba Virsa Singh, guess they have taken down Dasam Granth with all the furor. They must not have been able to defend it !

If you are so desperate to debate them, go do it in one of their venues. There are plenty of places they call their own. I suggest you go and find out for yourself what their beliefs are and whether they are actually looking for debate or to simply to try to undermine Dasmesh Pita's writings.

Regards,

K.

while you are at it could you please make a final decision on the Guru Gobind Singh and Krishan thread. i've been waiting for 1-2 months now

I don't think that the administration has the GUTS to make that decision because it is the same people that yesterday said that my views should be countered by logic and gurmat. Yet today N30 has become the sensor he promised never to be. Yet, not even once, I have used any threats or foul language. Goes to show there is not much difference between SikhSangat blog and SikhAwareness Blog.

I agree with Kam1825 Jee. The Naastik must GO!!! BAN HIM!!!

I guess so many of you can NOT debate with one person peacefully and logically and provide proofs from Gurbani. No wonder people like you bring a bad name for Sikhi. No wonder people are leaving Sikhi Bani & Bana because the way you people interpret it and present in the sick ways. When we have the ultimate & complete Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, the best Sant & Sadh (Read Gurbani) admin cut

Don't you know that a Sikh is supposed to be brave and intellectual. (Sikhan nu Bibek daan) and supposed to keep their egos and emotions in check (Sikhan da man neeva Mat oochi). Guess you would have these things only if you were True Sikhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. admin cut.

I agree that arbitrarily silencing people for not agreeing with us

would be unfair,

this however is clearly not the case as Veer Kalyug Singh ji has so

eloquently surmised,

this fellow has launched inflammatory attacks filled with

hatred, spite, puritanical arrogance, vehement disrespect and propagandist furor,

(All I did was posted what is written in the Dasam Granth and you people find it inflammatory. Just, imagine how a True Sikh feels when he reads the "Katha" of Charitro Pakhyan which you people claim was written by Guru Gobind Singh ji)

there are some Kala Afghanists here as elsewhere I'm sure,

none of them have ever spoken in such a boisterously insensitive tone while

aiming at wilfully misleading the sangat, nobody is saying that Kala Afghanists in general should be banned

if they agree not to breach the bounds of decorum just as the rest of us do,

but this fellow in one day has cruelly insulted the following with not a shred

of dignity or evidence:

-Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj by calling them 'Gobind Rai' in a derogatory manner

(You should read my comment as to what date line it refers to i.e. prior to 1699. And you people call youself intellectuals)

-Sri Dasam Guru Darbar (if this is a Pro-Dasam Granth place NOBODY should be allowed to insinuate

that this holy scripture is false let alone type 'so-called Dasam Granth' or suggest that

it is pornographic in nature)

(Even Akal Takhat has NOT accepted this as Dasam Granth. By the way its original name was Bachitar Natak, then Dasam Garnth, Then Sri Guru Dasam Garnth and NOW Dasam Sri Guru Granth. Who changes it & Why?)

-Baba Nihal Singh ji, Tarna Dal (See Tarna Dal head's picture in Bahnyare Wala's "Granth" toucning that Sadh's feet and seeking his blessing)

-the whole Nihang Singh Jathebandi (Pointing out that they drink Bhang, which is totally banned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, is somehow an insult of Nihangs)

-Damdami Taksal Gurmukhs (Read their Maryada booklet, where they do Chaleesa, Dusera, instead of Anand Karj they promote Phere around fire, and I am sure you have seen the pictures of Harnam Singh Dhuma touching Brahmin's feet in Hardwar)

-Lopon Wale Sants from Bhai Daya Singh ji Sampardai

-Sant Hari Singh ji (See attahced picture him leaving the stage and he was criticized by Sardar Tehal Singh the President of the Gurudwara where he to debate on behalf of 'Dasam Granth')

-Sant Ranjit Singh ji

I'm sure I'm forgetting some,

if Kala Afghana's works are banned in the Panjab

and he is ex-communicated by Sri Akal Takht,

why attach any importance to Sri Akal Takht Sahib at all if we aren't even willing

to prevent and censure the active proliferation of those irreputable views when they

have been so thoroughly repudiated and denounced by our 'highest authority'?

And when it is within our means to simply delete them?

These people have their own sites, brouchures, offices and ashrams

from which they spout their neo-anglican dogmas

WHY ARE WE THEN GIVING THEM ANOTHER PULPIT FROM WHICH TO SPEW?

I think we have to ask ourselves what are the limits of political correctness,

is this a place where Sikhs discuss Sikhism or where Sikhs have to air the views of

those who seek to insult us?

This fellow has not sought to debate anything

in a scholarly manner or with any intellectual inquisitivity whatsoever,

he is trying to stir up our discussions by relentlessly entering each thread

and injecting his puritan rhetoric to see how many people will agree with him,

so far none have, should we sit idley by while someone is mislead?

If you won't ban him at least delete what is offensive, nonsensical and inflammatory

in what he has written and moniter everything he write in future.

(And all you guys can come up with physical threats. I am glad that you finally show your true colors. If you read Sikh History, NOT even ONCE any of the Gurus threatened anyone, neither did the Sikhs)

I agree with Kam1825 Jee. The Naastik must GO!!! BAN HIM!!!

Then why NOT chnage the website address to SantAwareness rather than SikhAwareness !

lets just kill them all.. its the easiest way to get rid of them... God forbid we should waste our time in trying to kill them with wisdom and answers to their questions

I guess what these people can NOT ANSWER is always seen as Anti-Gurmat for them. That's because they can not debate based on Gurbani Principles and the Historical facts. These guys pretend to be Sikhs and yet look at their postings indicative of blood thirsty Kali mentioned in Dasam Granth. This is what they do in Gurdwaras and conferences. Wish these people learned to use the knowledge as weapon like Guru Nanak ji. Look for Gyan Kharag in Gurbani.

(Only a dirty mind of a Kala Afghanist would consider Chatro Pakhyan as juicy.)

Do you believe the teaching of Charitro Pkhyan, that a woman MUST NOT be trusted?

Do you believe in the teaching of Charitro Pkhyan that a person who refuses to saxually satisfy a woman other than his wife when she proposes him for sex, should be hit on the head with a shoe 1,600 times?

Do you believe in the Charitro Pkhyan's teaching of using sexual toys to excite women and torture your followres who do not comply?

Where does in Gurbani says that a disciple should have a thorn (Bhakhra da Kanda) pushed into his ass for disobedience, as is the case in Charitro Pkhyan?

I can continue giving you nearly over 100 instances like these just out of Charitro Pkhyan alone !

You still have NOT answered my questions whther you can READ the Viakhya of these Charitro Pkhyan to you mother & sisters? or from a Gurudwara stage? or on TV? Radio?

If you can NOT then highlight that part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, that you can NOT analyse among family members and sangat?

Prevent us from doing wrong right? You guys have reduced Sikhi to a religion of moral and ethical rules! You can find these moral rules in every religion in the world. Most Athiests are moralists, what need is there for a person to embrace Sikhi above other religions and ways of life it it is just about morality and ethics??

Consider the 5 vices (Kam, Karodh, Lobh, Moh, Ahnkar) against the qualities being taught by Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji (Sat, Santokh, Daya, Dharam, Dhiraj) then you would understand that in order to be a TRUE Sikh you have to have these morals and develop and ethical character. Just for a moment consider our modern society without these morals, qualities & virtues. It is this concept of Sikhi that makes Sikhism UNIVERSAL.

But HOW do you remember Vaheguru? It is through doing Simran/Zikr of Parmatma’s divine name. You Kala Afghanists claim to be Singh Sabhiyas. Since the current Sikh rehet Maryadha was written by the Singh Sabhiyas and supported by vidhvaans like Sahib Singh, then why don’t you follow the SRM where it says: in Chapter III: A Sikh should wake up in the ambrosial hours (three hours before the dawn), take bath and, concentrating his/her thoughts on One Immortal Being, repeat the name Waheguru. For furthur info please read Prof Sahib Singh’s book Simran Dhiyan barkataan about the importance of Vaheguru Simran.

The sign that you remember Waheguru is from your character i.e. when you remember Sikhi principles being taught by Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, a divine messahe directly from God (Dhur ki Bani), and implement in your daily life !I have come across so many of you so called Naam Simranye who flicker their lips saying Waheguru standing in public and yet stare at every single good looking female in a deragotory manner, lie to make higher profit, etc.!

Remember Jap ji in Nitnem (Page 4): vin gun keethae bhagath n hoe ||Without virtue, there is no devotional worship.

It is the implementation of these qualities in your character that when brings about positive chnage in your individual life, that you would in Ah will say Wah Guru. Understand the grammer here. There is a Sihari associated with the Haha meaning Guru ji di Wah

Doesn't Jaap that you follow teach you that God you have infinte names and based on HIS qualitities which you so violently oppose?

What about nearly fifty other names of God listed in Gurbani like Ram, Murari, Beethal, Niranjan, etc.

If you had cared to have read Gurbani, you would have come accross the Tukh in Anand Sahib, Simrat Shastar punn paap bichardhe that the Simratees and Shastars do veechar on punn and paap. All religions tell you not to lie cheat, kill etc. Atheists follow such morality as well. Sikhi is a roohani marg, prema Bhagti marg, not a religion obsessed with punn and paap like the semitic religions of the middle east.

Very typical of misguided individuals like yourself to use a single line (in this case only HALF of the line) from Gurbani simply to justify your position. Just read the full line and see what Guru ji says at the end of this line. Here is the full line for your satisfaction:

simrith saasathr pu(n)n paap beechaaradhae thathai saar n jaanee ||

The Simritees and the Shaastras discriminate between good and evil, but they do not know the true essence of reality.

Meaning these Hindu Vedas simply taught people what Paap & Pun were an set up inidviduals to be exploited by the Brahmin who would wash their Paap for a nominal fee to be paid to the Poojari and was defined as the Pun !

Guru ji rejected this idea and taught us that we are responsible for our own deeds. Remember Jap ji salok karamee aapo aapanee kae naerrai kae dhoor ||

According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

Sant Sipahi magazine answer this question most beautifully:

Question. If Bachittar Natak is the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then why there is no mention of Vaisakhi 1699 (Amirt Sanskar), battle of Chamkaur Sahib, and martyrdom of the younger Sahibzades?

Answer. This is an amusing question.

Bachittar Natak is a voluminous work and includes Apni Katha, the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh ji. This is the fifth composition in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib.

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib has fifteen compositions. The first is Jaapu Sahib and the last is Zafarnamah. Except for the Zafarnamah, the letter written to Aurangzeb, the rest of the compositions were completed by 1696 A.D. (bikrami 1753).

It was a brilliant idea to record the date, time, place and year of the completion of this work. This is evident from the closing lines of Chritropakhyan, the fourteenth composition. It says:

“On the banks of river Satluj the granth was completed on Sunday, Bhadro Sudi Eighth 1753 bikrami (1696 A.D). This closes the dialogue between the King and his ministers and with this the four hundred and four episodes come to a good end”.

ਸੰਬਤ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਣਿਜੈ। ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ।।

ਭਾਦ੍ਰਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸਟਮੀ ਰਵਿ ਵਾਰਾ। ਤੀਰ ਸਤੁਦ੍ਰਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ।।405।।

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਖਯਾਨੇ ਤਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੀ ਭੂਪ ਸੰਪਾਦੇ

ਚਾਰ ਸੌ ਚਾਰ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਮਾਪਤ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ।।404।।7555।।ਅਫਜੂੰ।।

Autobiography, unlike biography is obviously written during the lifetime of the author and has the incidents mentioned up to that period of time.

Now the Order of the Khalsa was initiated on Vaisakhi, 1699 A.D. (1756 b.) and Sri Dasam Granth was completed three years earlier, in 1696 A.D. (1753 b.)

Battle of Chamkaur Sahib was fought on 7 Poh, Samvat 1761 (1704 A.D.) and younger Sahibzadas of Guru Gobind Singh ji attained martyrdom during this period.

It is thus obvious that the autography penned by Guru Gobind Singh ji years ahead could not include the events and incidents that took place later on.

When Bhai Lehna lived in this world, whatever he did then did NOT matter until he came in touch with Guru Nanak Dev ji and became Guru Angand. Do we care what he said prior to becoming Guru Angand Dev ji? Are any of his teachings prior to becoming Guru Angand Dev ji has any importance or reference in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or Sikhi? Same goes for the reamining Gurus? So why does it matter where Guru Gobind Singh ji was prior to ARRIVING ON THIS PLANET to teach us how to make a stand against cruelty and injustice? As a matter of fact there were times in histroty when at least four physical bodies were present at one time and yet there was only one Guru (Guru Nanak to Guru Ram Dass)? You really think that Guru ji was created from the dirt that fell from the lion skin a so called Vishnu Bhagat or Devi was meditating on?

Why if the Dasam Granth has existed from Guru Gobind Singh ji's times, that we only found Hemkunt in 1934, first in Himachal Pardesh and then later in Bihar? Why is so much importance attached to place that does not even belong to Guru ji in this Janam? A guru who does not allows himself to be portrayed in a painting to avoid starting Idol Worship, would certainly not be pleased with his Sikhs running to some remote place with links to Hindu mythology !

You should ask this to your Kala Afghana Sahib and his pedophile ways, you guys follow a sexual preditor:

(I am not here to defend Gurbaksh Singh's personal character, RATHER what he has analyzed from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's teachings. I am certainly NOT saying that one does not have to read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and only read his books. All I said was that reading his books, the way he has categorised various topics makes it easier for anybody to nderstand the Gurmat principles.

Now lets us take a look at the date of the incidents listed below and when his works are published. Remember Bidhi Chand was a thief by profession, but became a preacher of Sikhism when came in contact with Guru ji. Remember Kauda Rakshas, Bhai Dalla, Bhoomia Chor? Everything action that they did prior to coming in otuch with the Guru was forgiven by Guru ji and today we proudly call them Sikhs. Gurbaksh Singh has gone in front of the Panj Payare and asked for forgiveness and carried out the Tankhah applied to him? Yet you live in the Bhoot Kaal?

I listed incidents where the individuals when summoned by either Akal Tkhat or Panj Payre refuse to accept their verdict, are either convicted by court and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment or a currently denying any involvement (Winnipeg case) despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary !

Yet in case of "Sant" Dhanwant Singhhe has been preaching from Taksali stages in Fresno, & Bakersfield California these days and last week started a 40 days (Hindu Chalisa) at Sikh lady's house. When news appeared in Rozanaspokesman a couple of days ago, all he told the faimly was that there are manmukhs against sants who are trying to chase him down.

NO BODY HAS ANSWERED MY QUESTION AS TO WHY THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF DASAM GRANTH RANGING FROM NEARLY 500 APGES TO IN EXCESS OF 1400 PAGES TODAY? AND THE SHOCKING PART IS THAT IT STILL CONTINUES TO GROW? WHICH CENTRAL SIKH BODY IS FINDING ADDITIONAL GURBANI FROM DASAM PATSHAH AND VERIFYING AND ADDING TO THIS BOOK EVERYDAY? WHY IS IT PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO TEACH OTHERS TO FOLLOW Sikh Rehat Maryada, DO NOT FOLOW THE CODE OF CONDUCT THAT REQUIRES THAT NOT OTHER LITERATURE CAN BE INSTALLED AS EQUAL TO SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI !

Indexed as: Khalsa v. Bhullar

Between Gurbaksh Singh Khalsa, Plaintiff, and Taranjit

Kaur Bhullar, Harinder Singh Bhullar, Gurnam Singh

Bajwa and Kahar Singh Pannu, Defendants

Counsel for the Plaintiff: Douglas S. Cunliffe.

Counsel for the Defendants: Christopher M. Considine.

[1992] B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No. 89/1983

British Columbia Supreme Court Victoria, British

Columbia

Macdonell J.

Heard: September 3 - 6, 9 - 12 and November 7, 1991

Judgment: February 24, 1992 (15 pp.)

Torts - Defamation 2- Defences - Truth. Sexual assault

- Damages - General

damages - Punitive damages - Punitive damage award

appropriate where a

/1 priest of the Sikh religion breached his position

of trust by sexually assaulting a

parishioner.

The plaintiff sued for damages for defamation of

character. The defendants counterclaimed for damages

for sexual assault. The plaintiff was a priest of a

Sikh religious temple. The summer following the

incident which was the subject of this lawsuit, the

plaintiff was discharged. The plaintiff was

68-years-old, and resided in the living quarters with

his wife and a daughter. His argument was that a

faction in the temple wanted to get rid of him, so

they attempted to put him in a compromising position

with Mrs. B. He claimed that she wrongfully exposed

herself before him and was sexually aggressive towards

him, and that he took no part in it. He further argued

that such a false accusation against a priest is

particularly devastating; in fact it resulted in his

being wrongfully dismissed and being unable to obtain

further

employment as a priest. The case for the defence was

that the plaintiff was not defamed and that, in fact,

the allegation of sexual assault was true.

HELD: The plaintiffs action was dismissed. The

defendant Mrs. B succeeded on her counterclaim, having

proved that the plaintiff in fact sexually assaulted

her. The court awarded her $5,000.00 in general

damages, and $5,000.00 in special damages. The

plaintiff had failed to prove his allegation of a

wrongful accusation of sexual assault. The defendants

had proved their counterclaim AND THE COURT FOUND THAT

IN FACT THE SEXUAL ASSAULT HAD TAKEN PLACE. With

respect to general damages for the sexual assault, the

court had to bear in mind the gravity of the assault,

the circumstances of it, and its effect on Mrs. B. The

assault was of a relatively minor nature in the sense

that there was only one incident. The assault here was

committed by a priest in the living quarters of a Sikh

temple upon a parishioner who was requested to attend

by the priest. The emotional impact of the forceful

touching of the plaintiffs chest and the attempt to

remove her stockings was not only offensive but

appalling, particularly as the priest in the Sikh

religion is held in high esteem and the utmost in

decorum is expected of him. He was in a position of

trust and abused the trust. On the other hand, there

did not appear to be any serious after-effects on Mrs.

B other than distaste for the whole matter. The impact

on Mrs. B would be lessened by her vindication in this

lawsuit, allowing her to save face.

MACDONELL J.:- The plaintiffs action against the

defendants is for defamation of character arising out

of an accusation by the defendant Taranjit Bhullar

that she was sexually assaulted by the plaintiff,

which accusation was published by the defendants.

The defendant Mrs. Bhullar alleges that the plaintiff

sexually assaulted her, and she and her husband

counterclaim for damages against the plaintiff.

The background, briefly, is that the plaintiff at all

material times was the priest at the Topaz Street

Temple of the Khalsa Diwan Society, which is a Sikh

religious society. The plaintiff came to Canada in

1984 and resided for a year in Grand Prairie with his

daughter. Prior to coming to Canada, he had been a

policeman in the Punjab and retired with the rank of

Inspector in 1981. He had no training in the

priesthood but was a devout Sikh. There does not seem

to be much dispute that he was knowledgeable in the

religion and was qualified to act as a priest, as

there does not appear to be any need for prior formal

religious training to act as a priest in a temple.

While in Grand Prairie, he saw an advertisement in an

ethnic newspaper advertising for a priest at Golden.

He applied and was successful and presided as a priest

there for some nine months. With this experience he

was accepted as a priest at 1 00 Mile House where he

presided for a year. He then heard of an opening at

the Topaz Street Temple in Victoria and on October

1st, 1986, he was employed there as the priest on a

contract basis which provided for two months' notice

by either party. He continued as priest until the

summer following the incident which is the subject of

this law suit, when he was discharged.

The plaintiff was sixty-eight years of age at all

material times, was married and had children. He and

his wife and a daughter resided in the living quarters

of the temple. Following his appointment, things went

along reasonably well, although there was friction

with the executive of the Society - no doubt partly

due to the plaintiffs rigidity in some areas. Toward

the end of December, 1987 the friction between him and

the Committee increased and the plaintiff became

convinced that a group in the temple, including the

defendants, wished to be rid of him. It is his

position that there was a conspiracy to effect his

removal, starting with their sending a white woman to

the temple to compromise him sexually. That plot

failed as she was drunk. He alleges that thereafter

there was a meeting between the various defendants and

others who plotted to have the female defendant

compromise him, again with the purpose of getting rid

of him. However, as part of his case, the plaintiff

alleges only the slander and not a conspiracy to

remove him as priest, which seems to be the subject

matter of another lawsuit.

The plaintiff testified that he met the Bhullars in

1986 and that they were regular attenders at the

temple. They were helpful with his daughter's marriage

and by 1987 he and the Bhullars became good friends.

He testified that from time to time he saw Mrs.

Bhullar alone and that at times they discussed

problems she had with her husband. He described their

relationship as that of a family membership.

The female defendant is thirty-five years of age and

her husband is a comparable age. The plaintiff said

that in 1988, when Mrs. Bhullar left one night after

visiting, she embraced him and kissed him on the

cheek. He said that he was very upset by this. He said

that following this she telephoned him and explained

that such conduct was not unusual in Canada. He said

that in January and February 1989 nothing of a sexual

nature took place between them and that they did not

meet privately during that time. He said that on March

25th, which was just prior to his and his wife's visit

to Seattle, Mrs. Bhullar came to the temple at

lunchtime in response to a call from him. He said they

took food after her arrival and then he went to take a

rest in his bedroom. He said that the defendant came

into the room. At that time he was sitting on a chair

removing his jacket. He said that she removed her

blouse, exposing her naked breasts, sat on his lap,

and put her hands around his neck. He testified that

she said, "I know you need me". He said he was stunned

and pushed her away, telling her that this was not the

way for a daughter to act. The defendant left and the

plaintiff then went to the temple and prostrated

himself before the Holy Book. He said that he and his

wife left for Seattle the next day, returning April

5th of 1989. He telephoned Mrs. Bhullar at her office

but as she was busy she telephoned him the following

day. He said he recorded the call on his answering

machine. He said he told her he would tell her husband

that she was not acting like a daughter. He said he

did, in fact, telephone her husband on the 6th and

told him that his wife was not faithful. He met her

husband in the afternoon and spoke to him further. He

said that on April 30th there was a meeting of the

Committee and his employment and raise were discussed.

He denied that there was any condition of immediate

dismissal in the case of lack of moral turpitude. He

said he did not speak to the defendants from April

through to June. On July 22nd, there was a meeting of

the Temple Committee and the plaintiff was advised by

Mr. Bajwa and Mr. Pannu that Mr. and Mrs. Bhullar had

lodged a complaint against him and that there was a

tape of a conversation between the plaintiff and Mrs.

Bhullar. The tape was apparently played, which

resulted in the plaintiffs employment being

terminated. After listening to the tape and hearing

the accusation of Mrs. Bhullar, the Committee accepted

as a fact that the plaintiff had sexually assaulted

the female defendant.

The plaintiffs position is that this allegation is

false and that the true state of affairs is that it

was the defendant who wrongfully exposed herself

before him and was sexually aggressive toward him, and

that he took no part in it. The plaintiffs position is

that such a false accusation against a priest is

particularly devastating; in fact it resulted in his

being wrongfully dismissed and being unable to obtain

further employment as a priest.

A considerable amount of evidence was called with

respect to various taped telephone conversations,

produced by both the plaintiff and the defendants

Bhullar, and other evidence of conflicts in the temple

which do not relate much to the law suit. The

plaintiff alleges that there was a conspiracy to

remove him and that the conduct of the female

defendant which he described was orchestrated by a

group in the Committee, which included Mr. Pannu and

Mr. Bajwa, to compromise the plaintiff. The plaintiff

called Mr. Gurbakash Sihota, who testified that he met

the defendants Bajwa and Pannu in February 1989 and

that Mr. Johal, Mr. Ajwall and Mr. Sanhera were there.

The meeting was at approximately 9:00 p.m. and was

arranged to congratulate Bajwa and Pannu for their

election to office on the Temple Committee. The last

three mentioned come from Vancouver. He said they then

discussed getting rid of the plaintiff, as there was a

complaint by Mr. Bajwa about the priest interfering in

a wedding ceremony when Mr. Bajwa sang a poem. Mr.

Pannu's complaint was that the priest contradicted his

mother-in-law. The consensus was that they should get

rid of the priest and that they had a girl ready to

entice him into making sexual advances. The name

mentioned was the female defendant, Bhullar. Mr.

Sihota said that Pannu had mentioned that they had

tried a white lady but it did not work because she got

drunk when she was sent to the temple and the

plaintiff" got away". In cross-examination the witness

tied himself to the meeting taking place on February

11 tho

The case for the defence is that the plaintiff was not

defamed and that, in fact, the allegation of a sexual

assault is true. The Bhullars in their counterclaim

ask for damages against the plaintiff for the sexual

assault.

The female defendant is thirty-five years of age, was

born in India and came to Canada in 1962, where she

took her education through Grade 12 at Oak Bay High

School and Camosun College. She has been with the

Workers Compensation Board for some seventeen years

and is presently a Claims Adjudicator, a position she

has held for some four years. She was married in 1985

and has one daughter of five years of age. Her husband

works for the Municipality of Saanich. They met the

plaintiff when he became a priest. They attended the

Topaz Street Temple regularly from 1986 through 1988

and they became close to the plaintiff. Initially,

Mrs. Bhullar and her husband responded to his need for

help in the community as he was a stranger. In 1987

the plaintiff needed a drive to a religious ceremony.

Mrs. Bhullar drove him there and said he put his hand

on her hand and she asked him to take it off. He later

asked, "How about a kiss?" and she said, "You've got

to be kidding". She told her husband about this

incident and they cut down their visits with the

plaintiff and their attendance at the temple

significantly. She said that at the end of 1988 the

plaintiff called her to meet him in private to talk

over his problems. She said they met at the temple and

nothing untoward happened. In December of 1988 the

plaintiff was persistently telephoning her and at

times asked her to bring food. On one occasion she did

take along Chinese food and it was consumed in his

quarters. On leaving she said he asked for a hug and a

kiss and that she pushed him away. Following this she

received telephone calls at work and by January and

February 1989 he was calling her as much as four times

a day, two or three times a week. In addition, when

she was not available, she received messages from time

to time that "Father had called". She said that in

early January the plaintiff had telephoned and was

very angry and upset with her as somebody in his

family had died and the Bhullars had not been

available to help him. She said that in mid-February

the plaintiff wanted to meet her at the library in the

temple for lunch as he wanted to talk to her. She went

and was met at the top of the stairs by the plaintiff,

who said the lunch was laid on in the library. She

asked where his wife and daughter were and he told her

they had had their lunch and were sleeping. She said

"We went to another room, which was the guest room,

where lunch was laid out". There were two beds and a

dresser. They ate the food sitting on the beds. He sat

on one and she sat on the other. She said that the

plaintiff came to the bed and put his arm around her

and pushed her back onto the bed. She said he put his

hand underneath her blouse and with his other hand

tugged at her skirt. She said she tried to pull away.

He told her he couldn't take her nylons off, although

he was trying. She said she pulled herself together

and pushed him away. She said she "got loud", meaning

that she raised her voice. He said "Don't get loud,

the bitches are sleeping in the next room". Mrs.

Bhullar then left through the library and went back to

work, very upset. At that time she did not discuss

what had happened with Ms. Mettis, her case assistant,

although Ms. Mettis asked her what was the matter. She

said in April she received a call from the plaintiff

threatening to blackmail her. He said that he had a

taped conversation which incriminated her. She said

she was devastated. She reported to work as usual, but

while going over a file with Ms. Mettis she broke down

in tears and then told her what had happened at the

temple. She was advised to tell her husband, which she

did. They did not attend at the temple after that.

Following her disclosure of the assault to her husband

they went to the police, who suggested that the matter

be sorted out in the Sikh community. She said to

protect themselves against a case of slander they

purchased a recording device and that during

conversations with the plaintiff she led him to

believe that she had not told her husband. Various

conversations were recorded. At the same time, the

plaintiff was busy recording conversations on his

machine.

Mrs. Bhullar denies that she was a party to any

conspiracy to compromise the plaintiff with the

purpose of having him removed.

The defendant husband was called and his evidence

paralleled that of his wife. He also testified that he

was not a party to any agreement to effect the removal

of the plaintiff.

The other defendants were called and they all gave

evidence to the same effect. After hearing Mrs.

Bhullar's accusation of sexual assault by the

plaintiff, which they believed, and the taped

telephone conversations, they concluded that he had in

fact committed a sexual assault and this was the

foundation for his being removed as a priest. The

defendants deny that there was any meeting as alleged

by Mr. Sihota.

The defence called Ms. Mettis, who confirmed the

evidence of the female defendant and, in particular,

the numerous calls made by the plaintiff to Mrs.

Bhullar, her emotional state following the visit to

the temple, and what was disclosed to her later when

Mrs. Bhullar broke down at the office.

The defence called Mr. Rajinder Sihota, who is a

senior accountant with the Ministry of Finance. He

testified that on February 13th, 1989 he was in a

police station in the Punjab with respect to a

complaint concerning Gurbakash Sihota, the witness

called for the plaintiff who alleged the conspiracy

meeting. Mr. Rajinder Sihota testified that the

plaintiffs witness was not only in the Punjab on the

13th February, but had been there for some time.

Logistically it would not have been possible for him

to be in Victoria on February lIth due to time changes

and travelling time. Mr. Rajinder Sihota also

testified that the plaintiffs witness Sihota was a

cousin of his and had a bad reputation. In addition,

he had information that his cousin had been in the

Punjab for a few months at that time.

The defence's position can be summarized as a complete

denial of the allegation of defamation or of a

conspiracy. With respect to the counterclai:t;n, the

defence claims that the evidence of the defendants

should be accepted and that the Court should find that

the plaintiff sexually assaulted the female defendant.

I have to assess the credibility of the various

witnesses called and also consider the tape recordings

which have been led in evidence and the allegation by

the defence that the plaintiffs tape recordings have

been tampered with and are, in fact, extracts from

other conversations taken out of context. The defence

also takes the position that the tape recordings that

have been produced by the defence make it quite clear

that the plaintiff admitted to the sexual assault.

Both the plaintiff and the defence called evidence of

experts dealing with the authenticity of the tapes.

The defendants' expert listened to the tapes and

conducted sound tests. In my view, his evidence should

be preferred to that of the plaintiffs expert, who did

not carry out this testing. The conclusion of the

defendants' expert is that the tape of the plaintiff

was not prepared, as he testified, by using a tape

recorder or answering machine and speaking to an

answering machine and telephone, but that in fact all

the conversations were taken from a telephone line. I

find this evidence credible. I accept it and conclude

that the tape prepared by the plaintiff has been

concocted by him and not recorded as he testified.

Listening to the defendants' tapes with the assistance

of the witnesses and the interpreter persuades me that

the inference to be taken from them is that the

plaintiff admitted to sexually assaulting the female

defendant and that the Committee was well justified in

accepting the evidence of Mrs. Bhullar and the tapes

in concluding that the plaintiff had sexually

assaulted her.

With respect to the alleged meeting between the

executives at Mr. Sihota's house, I conclude that this

evidence was fabricated and quite untrue and I accept

the evidence of Mr. Rajinder Sihota called for the

defence that the plaintiffs witness Sihota was in fact

in the Punjab at the time when the supposed

conversation and conspiracy took place.

I conclude therefore that the plaintiff has failed to

prove his allegation of a wrongful accusation of

sexual assault and find that in fact the sexual

assault did take place. The plaintiffs action is

accordingly dismissed with costs.

With respect to the counterclaim, I find that the

defendants have proved their counterclaim and that the

plaintiff in fact sexually assaulted the female

defendant. The plaintiff - who, as a priest in a

position of authority and influence, sexually

assaulted a female parishioner in the tight-knit

society of the Sikh community in Victoria - is guilty

of an extremely serious offence.

DAMAGES

The counterclaim is advanced by both Bhullars against

the plaintiff for the sexual assault. It is my view

that the only one who can succeed in the counterclaim

is Mrs. Bhullar. The defendant argues as if there is a

counterclaim for defamation of character as well as

sexual assault, but in fact that is not what the

pleadings disclose. In any event, a case has not been

made out to entitle Mr. Bhullar to damages.

With respect to general damages for the sexual

assault, I have to bear in mind the gravity of the

assault, the circumstances of it, and its effect on

Mrs. Bhullar. In this case, unlike a number of others

where damages have been sought for sexual assault, the

assault is of a comparatively minor nature in the

sense that there was only the one incident, as opposed

to cases where the assault was a rape or a similar

crime of violence, or assaults on younger people, that

have often continued over a number of years. Little is

to be gained by trying to compare damages in cases

that are not similar to the case at bar, so I do not

propose to review the current authorities which are

not bountiful. What I have to deal with here is an

assault by a priest in the living quarters of a Sikh

temple upon a parishioner who was requested to attend

by the priest, who is the plaintiff. The emotional

impact of the forceful touching of the plaintiffs

chest and the attempt to take off her stockings is not

only offensive but appalling, particularly as the

priest in the Sikh religion is held in high esteem and

the utmost in decorum is expected of him. He was in a

position of trust and abused that trust. The assault

was made possible because of the respect of Mrs.

Bhullar for the plaintiff as priest and her being at

the temple at all was at his request. With respect to

the consequences or the effect on Mrs. Bhullar, there

is very little evidence before me other than her

feelings of humiliation, shock and degradation. There

do not appear to be any serious after-effects other

than distaste for the whole matter. Consequently, it

is my view that the damages should reflect the

seriousness of the assault but damages in other more

serious cases should be borne in mind to keep a

balanced perspective of damages under this head. To

some extent the impact on Mrs Bhullard is lessened, as

her success in this lawsuit vindicates her and face is

saved in a society where it is very important. By the

same token, the plaintiff is discredited and has lost

all respect and credibility in his community. I award

general damages to Mrs. Bhullar in the amount of

$5,000.00 for the sexual assault.

A claim has been advanced for punitive damages. In

this case it is my view that it is appropriate that

punitive damages be awarded. They are not awarded on

the basis of compensation but on the principle of

punishment. In this case no criminal proceedings were

launched, although the Bhullars did report the matter

to the police, who left it to the Sikh community to

sort out the matter and did not proceed with charges.

Consequently, the element of punishment of the

plaintiff for his conduct has not been addressed. In

this case punitive damages need be awarded to express

society's disapproval of the conduct of the plaintiff

as a priest in authority and trust breaching that

trust and sexually assaulting a parishioner. His

attempting, after that, to manufacture evidence and

shift the blame away from himself and his harassment

of Mrs. Bhullar is despicable. I award the sum of

$5,000.00 as punitive damages. Mrs. Bhullar will have

her costs of the counterclaim and pre-judgment

interest at the rate set by the Registrar from time to

time.

MACDONELL J.

(JUDGE)

================================================

To All: It has been confirmed that KalaAfghana is

infact convicted Sex offendar, I just got email from

Mrs. Bhullar Attorney, I am forwarding that where in

he has indicated that he was successfull in his case

against Khalsa.

What a joke we have been honoring a sex offendar in

Gurudwara's and passing him as a scholar and reformer.

Thanks,

Jagwinder Singh

From: Chris Considine QC

<cmconsidine@...>

To: JAGWINDER BANIPAL <jagwinder@...>

Subject: Re: B.C.J. No. 378 Victoria Registry No.

89/1983 Khalsa v. Bhullar

Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 06:09:18 -0700

Dear Jagwinder Singh ,

I acted for Ms Bhullar and we were successful in the

case .I have not read the digest you sent in detail

but check with B.C.J.if you have any questions

regarding the accuracy of the reported decision .

Yours truly ,

Chris Considine

But usually don't have an answer when asked where the 'bipran ki reet' tuk comes from.

I think it's all part of a divide & conquer tactic - create doubt and attract followers. The funding of such groups is hazy and as mentioned, may have a link to the RSS etc.

Baba Hari Singh Ji answered their questions well and Darshan ragi was made to look like an idiot in Germany last year.

Just think about it that the same Baba Hari Singh and his chela Malkiat Singh were given two hours on Radio Shere-Punjab, vancouver about two weeks ago to explain about so called Dasam Granth and answer questions, provide proofs to back up their claims. Guess what, they hung up after 90 minutes and were unable to answer a single question and all they did was complain.

The very next Monday the same Hari Singh was to have a live debate in person with Prof. Darshan Singh and Giani Jachak, Hari Singh simply left the stage making excuses and disappeared. It was video recorded and published in almost all news papers just last week. Unable to show his face in public the next day, he showed up overnight in Seatle gurdwara. There again he was asked repeatedly by Bhai Ajay Singh of RadioAwaz.net to come on the live radio for 15 minutes and explain the whole episode. But baba HAri Singh turned out to be less of Baba and so called Sant.

The word Bipar means Brahmin, the Hindu Poojari. Reet means Marayada. So Bipran ki Reet means the Brahmin Marayada. Meaning turning your back on Guru ji. That is what you do when you coinsider the whole so called Dasam Granth as Guru Gobind Singh ji bani.

I can post about one hundred instances where this so called bani teaches exactly contrary to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

If only one third of this Granth (Charitro Pakhyan) was to be translated in English and handed over to an underage person, you can be charged by the US & Canadian police under anti-pronography laws. And you people consider this Guru ji bani. A few of the local Taksali singhs, who also believed this to be Guru ji bani, when finished reading this whole compilation, were shocked out of their minds and ashamed to be called Dasam Granthi Sikhs. If you have the guts, then read it yourself. Even Dr. Thind, who has done so much of the Gurbani seva online refused to post an English translation online out of embarassment.

Please grow up and become true Sikhs of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji alone. REMEMBER ONE PANTH & ONE GRANTH !

click here

There has been a website launched of Lopon Sampradaye which is still being updated, check it out.

Amazing. A forum where Gursikhs should be analysing Gurbani, are more interested in some Derawadiès complex. I recently visited village Lopo and saw the bunch of cows running around and blocking the traffic.

1. When you see the Home page. Notice one baba carries on the message of another baba. No where it syas that they taught Gurbani or spread Sikhism or held Sikhi camps. It sounds more like a one CEO taking over from another of a profitable enterpirse.

2. Where does in Gurbani says that cows are sacred. Is this not brahmnism all over again.

3. Look at these guys attire. Are they dressed like Gursikhs. One does not even have a dastar on his head. Yet we call them Sant Mahanpurkh Baba 1...008 whatever !

4. I got to hand to these guys. If one thing they know very well is worldclass Marketing. Can not even reach the people in their own small village and I found majority of them to be patit Sikhs, yet these guys can develop fancy websites in English becuase they need dollars & pounds !

Check out www.GuruGranthDarpan.com for complete punjabi translation (analysis) of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji !

It is amazing how nearly 16,000 registered Deras in about 13,000 villages of Punjab can use Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as the brand name to draw customers and lead them astray.

You do not need any sadh or dera wala baba to understand Gurbani. Simply open up Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and start reading one word at a time and start analysing it to understand its meaning. You will see that you will not get tired, bored or hungary and will loose track of time. Evetually you will feel so enlightened and brave from its teachings that you will have the guts to make a stand on Sikhi principles even if you were to be cut down !

P1

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6ndGV9Y_zao&...feature=related

'Vhat' ke chapper mari

Is it any surprise that majority of the Nihangs will consider Dasam Granth as Dasam Patshah Gurbani. How else would they justify;

1. Not having a family life like Gurbani requires a Sikh to have. These guys run around like nomads when it is not necessary in todayès times. Gurbani (page 281) says : grihasath mehi soee nirabaan ||

2. Not using drugs (which they proudly call Mahanparsad) and openly drink Bhang,especially on Vaisakhi day. Gurbani (page 1377) says: kabeer bhaa(n)g maashhulee suraa paan jo jo praanee khaa(n)hi || theerathh barath naem keeeae thae sabhai rasaathal jaa(n)hi ||233||

3. Not getting a full time job (Remember Kirt Karna is a pillar of Sikhism) Gurbani (page 1245) syas: ghaal khaae kishh hathhahu dhaee ||

naanak raahu pashhaanehi saee ||1|

4. Not get education. Wow ! no wonder the head of Tarna Dal took his Jatha and was pictured bowing to Bhanyre Wala Sadh. The head along with Amritdhari bibi presnted a Golden Kalgi to that papi and even installed on his hat. The whole thing was published in Punjab Gurdian online edition about 18 months ago. Yet they believe in Dasam Granth, according to which even Gobind Rai was taught wordly education. You can see the respect that these guys earn from an ordinary citizen compared to the respect Dr. Manmohan Singh ji.s, Motaek Singh and Dr. Manohar Singh Gillès worldly education has restored for Sikhism worldwide|

P2

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=egzcEWlLgD4&...feature=related

Traditional Goodbye

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=pHFaH8PGIlA&...feature=related

LOL, Afghanas.

Lets invite some Minas, Masands, Dhir Malias and Ram Raiyas.

Have real ball!

When we have Sri Guru Grath Sahib ji, we do not need anybody else to teach us. The rest just fades away ! Nothing can stand against the teachings of Gurbani and scientific and logical conclusions provided by our Guru ji. All I ask is that we read every single word of Gurbani at a time and find the true meaning of it, as Guru ji meant for us ! Guru ji never even mocked or taunted the enemies of Sikhs. Prime examples of Pande Khan against Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, Raja Hari Chand against Guru Gobind Singh in Bhangani battle and many more

He won't be banned from this website, as website doesn't allow any kind of censorship as long as its within gurmat framework/gurmat sidhant . (I appreciate your committment to keep this truly an open forum. The sole purpose of my postings was not to create a division among Sikhs but to unite us all under One Panth & One Granth concept and create a constructive atmosphere to base our views on Gurbani and Gurbani alone) Obviously, bold one liner statements without any source is discouraged and may be set for approval in que until source is provided or logic behind it its explained.

I personally don't agree with kala afghana bhausaria ideology one bit, even created a thread with compilation of their flawed approaches/mindset in the past . I would rather see them being challenged/debated by saints/scholars of the panth than simply having knee jerk reactions to their posts or simply having an attitude of passing fatwas against them. (If we ALL kept this mind set, I am absolutely sure that within a few months the Khalsa Panth can take care majority of the issues we currently face and spread Shabad Gurbani all over the world.)

the answer is very simple. Bachitar Natak was finished several years before 1699 so it is just obvious that it does'nt contain any information about what happend after 1699..

I will asume that you are not an ignorant but assume that you have not read any chapters in Dasam Granth. Expain to me the three dates that are written in Dasam Granth indicating when it was supposedly finsihed and these all date past your claimed date of 1699. And there are Chritars in Chritaro Pakhyan, that accroding to Pyara Singh Padam`s book (Dasam Granth Darshan) are Guru ji`s personal happenings that claim to show Guru ji in lustful and adultrous character and are dated past your claimed finished date. Yet even Mr. Padam could not answer any of the objections and questions raised by Kala Afgana in his books part 10 where he has published the letters written by both of them.

im sure someone will, but can you please explain to sangat why you belive in jaap sahib, twa prasad sawaye and chaupei sahib when Guru Gobind Singh did not include these in the damdama beer??? (Read my words that I do NOT OPPOSE what is accepted by Akal Takhat out of respect. That does not mean that I beliève in these. As a matter of fact if you were to read the translations compiled by the supporters of Dasam Granth, you will see that these writings are clearly addressing some gods & goddesses, not Akal Purkh.

Explian to sangat why the God in Dasam Granth is Maha Kal not Akal like the God of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. In gurbani, only one time the word Maha Kal is written on page 885 and is in context to Jamraj not God (raam naam simar thoo jeevehi fir n khaaee mehaa kaal ||1|| rehaao ||)

May be you can explain to Sangat why the writer of Dasam Granth, always worrying about the Granth starting to become too big and for that reason having to stop. The same writer, instead of writing about Sikhs, Sikhi principles, keep on writing about how Devate & Dushat are fighting, how when one of these so called gods see a beautiful godess immediately end up having erection and ejeculation right there and then and the sperms on the ground create more Devtas. This so called Dasam Granth fills pages and pages writing about the PHYSICAL GOD with a garland of Skulls around his neck, blood dripping from his toungue, with four arms, and holding decapitated heads etc. Sounds familiar to someone else`s writings. Oh ya, the Brahmin`s Vedas !

You still can not explain why this Dasam Granth spans in different versions ranging from 500 to over 1420 pages. Which one of your Babas or Sants is writing this.

THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION IS THIS: Why do Sikhs need Dasam Granth (Which was originally called Bachitar Natak). Are there any teachings missing in Guru Granth Sahib ji. Do you think that Satgur Poora concept does not apply any more. Please save me your template answer that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji makes you a Sant and the Dasam Granth makes you a Warrior, You know why, because then you would not be able to explain all the wars starting from Guru HARGOBIND ji`s times and the martyrdom of Pir Budhu Shah, Bahi Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Dyala ji.

I pray for you that you have faith in One Panth & One Granth. Read what Guru has to tell us (dhoojai bhaae ko naa milai fir fir aavai jaae ||)

I agree whole heartedly about the "slagging" off of other Sikhs.

I would like to know how many Sikhs have actually read what Kala Afghana wrote? This furore started by Panthic/Nindya Weekly is interesting because I would also like to know how many of the "editors/nindaks" there read his stuff.

I am in no position to call him good or bad because I haven't read all of his writings. Experience has told me not to rely on other peoples say so.

Thanks Bhai Sahib ji, for taking a stand on what is right according to Gurbani. I endorse whole heartedly Guru ji`s teachings that Mas Mas Kar Moorakh Jhagre. For whatever reason the so called Taksalis, AKJs and other Drewadis oppose this teaching and try to force their own interpretation on all Sikhs. Despite the fact that they do `Waheguru shabad repition for thousands of times a day`they do not have control over their anger and can not debate issues based on Gurbani`s logical teachings and end up resorting to violence.

Read the Marayada prepared by Taksal, where first they say it not okay to eat meat, then says it is okay to eat it if your survival is at stake or you feel like eating it then you should do the Jhatka with your own hands. This was written by Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale. Now lets take this one step further, and apply this concept to lying, cheating, stealing drugs, adultery. What you think is going to happen to the character of a Sikh. No wonder when you will read rest of the postings below you will find a complete denial by these so called `Sikhs to the fact that Gurbani teaches us how to be a perfect human with the cleanest soul. So Joti which jot ral jaye !

READ MY ANSWERS IN RED COLOR

You call yourself Guru Da Sikh if you are then do you accept the bani's of the Guru or reject Jaap Sahib, Choupai Sahib and Savaiyai like the Afgana puppets? (I do NOT OPPOSE any thing that has been authorized by Akal Takhat, and these three are accepted by Akal Takhat Maryada) Do you accept Raagmal as Gurbani or reject it like Kala afgana does? (I accept the original Bir installed in Harmandir Sahib as the validation for these issues)

That is the first thing i ask you?

Secondly, the SGPC may use the Prof Sahib Singh Teeka to do their arths for the hukumnama, again does not make it a great teeka. Not on any of the shabads is their an uthanika, antreev arths or dristants. (Why dont you prepare a teeka of complete Sri Guru Granth Sahib and post on the internet and let Sikh Scholars to evaluate your abilities, if you consider yourself as a Giani)

looking at that teeka one cannot tell me why you have three different 'So Dar' Shabads all by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sahib Singh never explained why they exisits, who the shabads are being said (who is the spiritual discourse being given to) and what the antreev arths are. (ONLY if you would have read Guru Granth Darpanès pre-text written by Sahib Singh ji, you would have NOTICED that he did not have the EGO to declare that he knew better than others, like you claim to, rather he said it is an attempt at trying to analyze Gurbani from gramatical point of view. I will like to add that he did such a wonderful job that nobody so far has matched his work) It is teekas like tha sahib singh teeka which have caused controversy about the number of bhatts and the validity of the raagmala (Controversies start when people let their egos make decisions rather than asking Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji give them guidance. However, people like yourself do not see the need to ask Guru Granth Sahib ji for answers because you have a direct line to these so called Sants, Brahamgyanis and Babas) as in 35 years of reasearch he could only come up with the teeka of basic arths which anyone with basic viakakan gian can tell you.

Sant Hari Singh Ji have given the answers to the questions given by your role models on the tv (Can you let me know what TV station was that on and when exactly did this MIRACLE happen. Of course I am referring to the scheduled debate in New York about a week or so ago) (please do POST a link to the website where I would find Hari Singh debating on Dasam Granth) have baba sukhchen singh ji. Each time making these modern day neo masands look like the idiots that they are (and you call yourself a SIKH, even any one of the Gurus never used such dis-respectful words for any individuals who committed the worst cruelties on Sikhs). People moan about Brahmans, sadhs, deras, (wonder why sants like Chicago Wale are caught in Motels with prostitutes, Wonder why the RCMP in Winnipeg charged two Namm Simranye from Nanaksar for raping minors nearly 1,100 times over a period of nearly 10 years in their Dera, wonder why Sant Dhanwant Singh was charged, convicted, sentenced for 10 years and fines Rs10,000 for raping an underage) etc destroying sikhi but it is actually these fanatical missionaries who believe their research and knowledge is greater then the bani of the gurus (they just bring the Guru ji's teachings and explain to people in simple terms like Guru ji meant, They have never claimed or said that there are any faults or shortcomings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. However, it is misguided peoploe like you that sometimes bring lines from Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and try to portray them as lusful. Shame on you for disgracing the SatGuru) and their hazoori sikhs.

With regards the the Dasam granth in the time of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, you will find a copy dated 1698 signed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji at Takhat Sri Patna Sahib. (Explain to the sangat, why when Guru Gobind Singh wrote the complete BIR in Damdama Sahib, didn`t include his own writings in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) The Dasam Granth is almost complete as it is missing just the Zafarnama and hikayats which we all know were written after the evacuation of Anandpur Sahib years later (explain to the Sangat, then why it takes the Sikhs to start finding first copy around 30 years after Guru ji left this world. Why are so many different versions of Dasam Granth with pages ranging from 500 to nealy 1430 today. Is Guru ji still writing. As a matter of fact two more pages are being added on as we debate this. Why is there no stamp of Nanak. Why is that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji every Maglacharan starts with Ik Onkar and ends with Satgur Parsad and in Dasam Granth it is always Ik Onkar Sri Waheguru ji ki Fateh.) You want your proof go and see the bir there. If not delve into historical records like the Bansavlinama! (Did Guru ji say, Sab Sikhon ko Hukam hai Guru Manyo Dasam Granth or Sri Guru Granth)

Guru Da Sikh, Kala Afghanists only pretend to agree with Sahib Singh's translations. They are very selective. They pick and choose what fits into their agenda, while discarding what doesn't. If you want to read what real Singh Sabhiyas like Sahib Singh, Vir Singh wrote then read their books directly instead of reading Kala Afghanists/Ghaghaist books (I have read Guru Granth Darpan from Sahib Singh ji and find it very enlightning).

I've read Kala Afghanist books and quite frankly I found them very dry. (I am glad that the JUICY stuff that you are looking for only exists in Charitro Pakhyan, (about 30% ) of Dasam Granth) All they talk about is morality, Don't lie, Don't do chori, Don't cheat, Don't do this, don't do that because it is part of Hinduism. It completely lacks any sort of spirituality. (Read Gurbani carefully you will find that Gurbani's message is to prevent us from wrong doing by providing GIAN which you are so violently opposed to) They are against Naam Simran (Naam is Hukam (Gurbani's Message) & Simran originates from Sanskrit meaning Rememberance, Hence remembering God and Gurbani message at all times is actually Naam Simran. Here is the proof from Gurbani: sathasa(n)gath kaisee jaaneeai ||

jithhai eaeko naam vakhaaneeai ||

eaeko naam hukam hai naanak sathigur dheeaa bujhaae jeeo ||5||) If you do your Nitname then try reading the concluding line of 1st Pauri & you will know what Guru ji trying to tell us) from which is the very foundation of Sikhi. Without Naam what is left is Sikh? Just a moral life? you can find these moral rules in any religion (show me where its written in Hindu Vedas or Shastars or anywhere else) , even Athiests are moralists! then why the hell (your true "Sikhi" colors show up in your language) would some one want to follow Sikhi if it's just about moral and ethical rules?

BTW, there was a time when I was some what influanced by Kala Afghanists, especially when it comes to Dasam Bani (Explain to me why in the so called Bachitar Natak, there is no refernce to Pir Budhu Shah`s sacrifices of 700 disciples, no mention of Chamkaur di Garhi, Martyrdom of all four Sahibzadas, and most importantly the `Creation of Khalsa in 1699` and no mention of why Guru ji told us to follow Guru Granth Sahib ji as the Only Guru, and any mention of the original Panj Payres, Mata Gujri ji. Yet this is supposed to be his Autobiography. Wake up and ask yourself why you do the ardaas and say Guru Manyo Granth and follow two Gurus). But when I read Giani Harbanse Singh's books based on his knowledge in Viakaran I was convinced that kala Afghanists have no knowledge of Gurbani based on Viakaran. Now I'm a firm beleiver in Dasam Bani (I wonder why there are cases of Rapes at Deras & Nanaksariye Thaths, Oh ya, these people read the Charitro Pakhyan in Dasam Granth. See if you can read the translation of this so called Dasam Bani to your mom & sisters) thanks to Giani Harbanse Singh Jee.

i have read all of Kala afganas works and have them at home. He is an individual lacking understanding and to work from Prof Sahib Singhs work only is terrible. That teeka is the worst out of the lot, no uthankas, antreev arth, sakia, dristhants.

No wonder Kala Afgana came to the silly conclusions that he has. Thankfully Sant Nihal Singh Ji and Sant Hari Singh Ji have shown his ideas as propogated from his ignorance rather then his knowledge in the videos posted on the internet

Wow ! I am not surprised at all that so called "Sikhs" who believe that Guru ji's teachings are not to better our lives will have no respect for Prof. Sahib Singh's work who spent approx. 35 years of his life 'unlocking' the message of Gurbani so that we normal people would understand. The fact that even in Darbar Sahib, Amritsar everyday's Hukamnama is translated from Prof. Sahib Singh ji's Teeka, and posted in Darbar Sahib and on the SGPC website, in your mind is not good enough. Goes to show how much respect you have for Gurbani and its message !

Are we talking about the same "sant" Hari "Singh" who, according to the latest news in the papers, could not support his claims that so called "Dasam Granth" was installed in equality even when Guru Gobind Singh ji was here in body. Hari "Singh" challenged all Sikh scholars to debate on this concept but when it came time he decided to run away from the stage and New York city overnight and not show up on stage to give any answers. Overnight he showed up in Seatle where local Radio station run by a Gursikh refused to carry any of Hari's katha becasue he had lied to the sangat. Despite repeated request to clarify his position on these issues, this so called "Baba" didn't want to be on the radio even for 15 minutes. You can confirm this with Bhai Ajay Singh, the owner & operator of the RadioAwaz.net.

Now I am not surprised at the depths so called "Sikhs" have fallen. Rememeber, it is these so called "sants" can't explain why it is okay to slaughter a goat in Hazoor Sahib to use its blood for Shastar Pooja yet its not okay to eat Jhatka, like "baba" Gurbachan Singh okayed. Which one of these "sants" is right?

Singh Sabha Canada are real admin cut. They are a curse and they need to be countered. They are basically Kala Afghanists and Ghaghaists.

We call our Sikhs yet we are hateful towards other Sikhs ! Every day we do ardas for Sarbat de Bhale di and then we have paste a Sikh's face on a goat and slaughter it and feel good about it. Does that still give us the right to call ourselves Sikhs?

Regarding Kala Afgana, this man spent nearly 8 to 10 hours per day for nearly 10 years and analyzed the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and categorized so many critical topics and wrote those in the form of books. Each topic or sub-topic is supported by at least five (5) shabads from Gurbani and in some cases he has given a list of upto 200 more shabads from Gurbani. He did not do any Katha, he simply took Prof. Sahib Singh's analysis and compiled in a manner that is easier to understand. Because he challenged the so called Jathedars who are unable to perform their duties towards Sikhism under political pressures, he was thrown out of Sikhism. I too had the same negative feeling about him whenever his name was mentioned until I got hold of his book called Bipran ki Reet ton Sach da Marg, and then I could NOT stop reading until I was finished with all ten parts. I was pleasently shocked about the passion, dedication and love this man has for Sikhi yet he is being treated like a villan.

Once you read his books and then you look at the treatment he is being metted out, it is not difficult to understand why Sikhi principles and Sikh identity is fast disapperaing from this planet. You will start to feel a sense of remorse in yourself for letting so much hate grow inside yourself.

Because Gurbani syas:

kal kaathee raajae kaasaaee dhharam pa(n)kh kar ouddariaa ||

The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the knife, and the kings are butchers; righteousness has sprouted wings and flown away.

So if you are a true Sikh you must have an open mind and not make a judgement and comments about others wihtout learning about them. Gurbani defines that act as Nindya.

If you want to learn how Brahmin expolited people for centuries and how Guru ji "Liberated" them from Brahmin's grasp, the click on then following link and read for yourself and tell me one thing this man has said or written that goes against Gurbani or Sikhism;

http://www.kalaafghana.com/files/vol2.pdf

Bhul Chuk Maaf !

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Wheguru ji ki Fateh !!