Kulsingh5

the example you set between the 3ho and nirankaris is absurd. nirankaris do not believe in the root of gurmat principles, whereas the 3ho do. the flower may differ but thats about all.

Absurd?

Many hard line Sikhs in the west have ridiculed them because of some of their practices, which are believed to be anti Sikh.

How long before Sikhs decide to shun them from the panth?

nirankari is not an offshoot of sikhs, they totally reject the main sikh principles. nirmalay are a saprdaye within the sikh panth, so they are not an off-shoot, and if by Adasi, you are refering to Udasis, then they are also a part of the the SIkh panth. Radhaswamis are not sikhs, they do not call themselves sikhs, and do not beleive in Gurbani as their guru.

Where are you getting this info from?

Very interesting Link:

http://sikhism.about.com/od/Sikhism_History/tp/7-Offshoot-Sects-Of-Sikhs.htm

Religion and politics are not separate, and nor did this mix originate in the 1920s.

You keep telling yourself that.

You made a comment "3ho Sikhs are following a bastardise version of Sikh religion"? Are you expecting someone to read this in a positive context.

It's up to the individual how they perceive it.

When you quote a passage out of context, like you do on all your posts, well, then passages do read differently don't they.

Let me rephrase in a more elaborate statement:

How do you know it is another offshoot of the Sikhs?

That link does not help.

If you want to get philosophical on this then carry on, stop wasting my time.

The link is self explanatory.

You seemed to be complaining about 3ho. Anyway thanks for making your stance clear.

Geazer, where was I complaining? Seriously, learn to read. I asked you a question on, what stance do hard-liners such as yourself have on 3ho Sikhs.

You seemed to be complaining about 3ho. Anyway thanks for making your stance clear.

Hold your horses. We will get to the details.

How?

How? I think you fairly well know how.

If you need help, here you go.

http://www.nirankari.org/modules/founder/bababuta/

I thought we were discussing about bhajan and how he misled the 3ho Sikhs by mixing his own personal philosophy with Gurbani.

There are corrupts everywhere, in Punjab or in the West.

Well this is nothing new. We all are ware of this.

The call themselves Sikhs, so eventually they would find their way.

You should wish them good luck.

What did the Sikhs do to the nirankaris?

I thought we were discussing about bhajan and how he misled the 3ho Sikhs by mixing his own personal philosophy with Gurbani.

No, it was you who bought up the issues with Yogi Bajjan, I have no issues with his philosophies and the rituals practised by the 3ho sikhs.

What did the Sikhs do to the nirankaris?

Yes, what did the Sikhs do to the Nirnkaris?

Nirinkari movement is another off-shoot of Sikhs, such as Nirmalay, Adasi and Radhaswamis. But Sikh's seem to have this issue of accepting these faiths. Many of these sects in the west are more then happy to call them self as Sikhs but hard-liners such yourself think you have the right to make judgement on them.

Now, lets have a look at the Nirinkaris, same issue here Hard-liners such as AKJ and Dhamdhami taksal have had hard time accepting them. After the collision with Sikhs on 13^th April 1978 and for Alkalis to show support to JSB, didn't Mr Thora ban any Niriankari gathering in punjab, is this not discriminating. And didn't your beloved JSB made a fiery speech to his congregation, I would weigh the person in gold who would fetch him the Niriankari Cheif, Baba Gurbachan Singh's head.

Yes, we have rumours or may be a fact what Gurbachan Singh said. But, we have many people ridiculing regions all over the world, the social network is full of it. Do you see Christians raging wars against atheists when the Holy bible is made out to be a book of lies. But regrading the Sikhs, there seems to be this insecurity, if any one talks bad of the Gurus or the Granth they should be punished.

Lets get back to 3ho Sikhs, your statement straight away was they were misled by Jogi Bajan, but what makes you think they were ever misled.

The call themselves Sikhs, so eventually they would find their way.

Fair enough, but may not be the Sikh faith you recognise as the Sikh faith. They probably say the same about the Punjabi Sikhs.

You are right ; I forgot another meaning of it, maybe more symbolic than religious. The number three is sometimes associated with flesh, mind and soul. To unite them is an important goal at least in christian meditation (hesychast), by breathing practices and mantra reciting.

Your statement about the dharmic trinity is also very interesting : I didn't notice this concept also exist in christianity, and also in ancient european religions. Just take a look at celtic mythology and the triskel symbol, this is pretty close by its sense.

In the Sikh scriptures the following is used:

eik sa(n)saaree eik bha(n)ddaaree eik laaeaedheebaan ||

One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.

When I say facts, I mean Gurbani's message.

Gurbani's message, what makes you so sure they are not following Gurbanis message.

What makes you so sure modern Sikhs from Punjabi backgrounds are following Gurbanis message?

Like I have said before, Akali's and SGPC have used Gurbani to obtain their political agendas in Punjab, by nook or crook. These political bodies ( I call them political because I don't really see SGPC as a representative of Sikhs living in the west) have used religion to gain power over the masses. Now, how is that any different to what Yogi Bajan did?

Going back to the original question, if you believe, 3ho Sikhs are following a bastardise version of Sikh religion, who is going to point them in the right direction?

What if 3ho Sikhs split from the mainstream? I have had conversations with a few of them in London, because they certainly believe it may happen in the near future. They don't want to but if they are forced they will.

So, the next question, will mainstream Sikhs do the same to them as they did to the Nirnkaris?

Bhajan mixed a lot of his own personal philosophical jargon while conveying Gurbani's true message.

Do you get what I mean by facts now?

But, isn't this happening in Punjab over the last 100 years, the Akali movement and SGPC, mixing politics with religion?

The facts, depending on how you look at the facts. Facts from the side of Punjabi Sikh faith which is heavily involved in liberation from India or the 3ho Sikhs, where the political influence are limited.

Bhajan came here primarily as a yoga instructor so the 3ho folks see him in two aspects, as a yoga teacher and as a Sikh. The mess would not have been created if bhajan would have given the facts straight.

Facts ? What facts are those?

If the 3ho SIkhs are not on the correct path, who is going to put them on the correct path? SGPC? Taksall?

Sat Sri Akal

I certainly won't learn you something if I tell you the following traditionnal story : Nanak came to a river after a youth of virtue and spiritual righteousness. Then, it is said he disappeared during three days. This time is common in many religious traditions : I was born in a christian family, learnt the life of Jesus, and noticed many times he came back to life after three days in the grave.

The gospels insist to show he resurrected after those days : those holy scriptures disagree about many subjects, but the concept of three days comes again and again, regardless of the gospel you can use. Knowing Nanak's story reminds me the book of Jonas, in which a prophet of God is trapped in a whale for... Three days.

I am pretty serious when I study religions, and even more when I want to compare some of their teachings. So, I would not use different elements at the same time if they didn't have a few common points. But those three days you can find in many traditions seem to give a deep symbol of :

- Fulfillement.

- Getting a divine mission.

- Becoming closer to God than most of men.

My personnal opinion would be the next : the number three could symbolize keeping ahead of duality. Going out of black/white, good/bad, right/wrong, at least in the human sense. It reminds me of the yin-yang symbol, eventhough many people of western origins do not really understand what it implies.

To conclude, I would believe in a symbolic element during Nanak's learning, with very deep implications... But that's only my understanding, and your opinions are welcomed

Regards,

Farhad.

3 symbolises the trinity.

In eastern dharama the trinity is symbolised by the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

As you know, Trinity is also used within the Christian Faith, "Father, Son, Holy Ghost"

There is a difference.

The 3HO are trying to get into Sikhi, lost as they may be. The identify themselves as Sikhs. Much of the 3HO mess was created by Yogi Bhajan.

3ho Sikhs were created by Yogi Bajan but he is their Guru. This mess you talk about is part and parcel of their basic belief system.

Where did nirankaris get their "faith"? And who/what gave them that "right" anyway?

To take your statement verbatim, my faith gives me full right to fight oppression with martial force if needed.

Will this happen to the White Sikhs as well (3ho Sikhs), they practice certain aspects of of Hindu Dharam e.g. Kundalini yoga, they are frequent visitors to Haridawar and Banaraas.

Should they be dealt in the same way, as with the Nirankaris?

3ho Sikhs also do pooja to Harbajan Singh Jogi, their Guru.

Should Sikhs take the same stance on these people?

Facts are facts, just because it is the Daily Mail doesn't change the fact that the Indian elite are spending millions on the Mars mission in a delusion quest to become a superpower.

Yes, Facts are facts but how does it effect you how India spends its money. India is a democracy and its in their right to spend the money as they wish.

Same can be said about the US, billions of dollars spent on the space race but people still live in poverty.

The UK spent huge amount of money fighting wars in the middle east but still many families are relying on food banks for their next meal.

You mentioned Indian elites, in the UK, Britain's richest 1% have accumulated as much wealth as the poorest 55% of the population put together. There is a big issue in the UK regarding housing, 9% of population own 44% of the housing in the UK.

The elites problem is not only in India, its in the world.

The space programme with satellites might be of benefit but sending a probe to Mars ;

But critics questioned why India spends so much on a space programme when so many of its people live in poverty. One economist condemned the space mission as a ‘delusional quest for superpower status’ at a time when half of Indian children are malnourished.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2767471/India-triumphs-maiden-Mars-mission.html#ixzz3EIRfgx1T

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Also why only congratulations to Hindus? Did you miss the Sikh in the picture.

You got to be kidding me; you are using Daily mail as your reputable source to back your statement.

The most right wing newspaper in the UK.

I do agree, Indian government do need to prioritise their spending, while millions of Indians die of disease and starvation.

May be investing some money in birth control and decreasing their population.

I do, and Jattis are not with Muslims we both know that.

Duggu you're not in a position to say anything. We confer judgement, you are below.

I can't find the other thread, where you said gurus wanted an egalitarian society.

The world already is egalitarian, you can gain force and take control.

You, are looking for a handout.

My iq is not low lol

Ak not even santali, I won't say anything. You'll have to be on the same side, when the time comes.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ | |

When the time comes? for what ? You to get some help.

For the last few days, I have not replied to this thread and fair enough to the posts that replied to my posts got me thinking. Yes, I do agree, gathering knowledge from both sides and making your best judgement.

So we know for a fact, there were issues on both sides Khalistanis and the government but where does the Hindu dharm come into this? Yes, I agree many of the politicians were Hindus but many were also Sikhs.

As reading through the posts, I fell posters trying to portray the Indian Government by using the term “Hindu”

Can we just make it clear it was the Indian Government (Congrees) not the Hindu Dharam.

I’m getting the feeling from number posters on this forum, if you do not support the Khalistani movement then you are not a Sikh. This is based on my opinion from the few days of reading through the posts.

My final question would be, to people who support the Kahlistani movement.

Do you want an Independent Punjab?

Speak up on atrocities committed by kps gill, cm beant singh , etc. When do you think the Khalistan movement started? Do you even know the reasons?

What has killing innocents got to do with Khalistan movement?

All knows who were killing Hindus , its Indian agency black cats and on other side Hindus were involved in killing Sikhs all over India ? Just yesterday one Hindu is arrested for making threatening calls to attack Darbar Sahib. Vaise te haram de bachya galla te mai ve kad sakda hai par jad banda hove he Hindu te ehsto vahdi gall hor ho ke sakdi hai ?

Admin - Are Maa pehn dia galla allowed in this forum ? Let me know so that i can reply in the language these India bastards understand .

All knows who were killing Hindus , its Indian agency black cats and on other side Hindus were involved in killing Sikhs all over India ?

That's your conspiracy theories again , Indian agents, RSS so there is no blame on Khalban movement?

Admin - Are Maa pehn dia galla allowed in this forum ? Let me know so that i can reply in the language these India bastards understand .

I was being civil in my posts and made sure no swearing was used, so what the hell is this "Saala Chahali Gulli." and using "Indian bastards" is so clean.

What ethnicity are you then? Pakistani?

Let me know so that i can reply in the language these India bastards understand .

Again, you are assuming, these assumptions will have to stop. What makes you think I'm from India? Yes, my background is Indian, my parents are from there.

Did you just wake up? You are in denial.

Denial of what? Please do explain?

Be a Human being and enjoy my life to the fullest.

Because of that act you hindus have no right to talk about Rajoana action . Can you have a Hindu name for this forum ? another Hindu radical in this forum with Sikh name . Saala Chahali Gulli.

Hindus have every right to talk about a terrorist, when Kahlibans are focused on their mission to commit a genocide against Hindus.

What makes you think I'm not a Sikh, because I don't back you genocidal agenda.

Paan Chodiya, you Khalbans do assume allot. This is your downfall, shouldn't assume so much.

Hindus you talk about, kicked your Khaliban ass out of India and now hiding in the west acting like bahdurs.

Paan Chodo, if you think you are such brave warriors, why not go to India and fight the battle. Everyone is a brave warrior behind a computer a screen. Sala Kamina