SikhKhoj

Do you remember in which book it was?

Yes you are right, ਨਿੱਗਰ is used for something solid or even well built persons.

ਟਲ਼ਨਾ is like Din dhalna meaning the day goes and night comes. But thats not what I asked for, talley - ਟਲੇ.

Nirnibhau = ਨਿਰ ਨ ਭਾਉ

Actually I do know what these three words mean, so just asking as a quiz question. I don't think you will get talley ਟਲੇ right since its an old Doabi word (my dadi used this often) for clothes.

Well yeah a theory, but kind off odd, using warcry as a greeting.

Yes, all puratan Granths say fateh, no mention of ssa.

Okay.

ਨਿਰ੍ਨ੍ਭਾਉ

ਨਿਗਰ

ਟਲੇ

I see.

BTW in some other thread you said Macauliffes Ardaas was different to todays, could you elaborate?

Amardeep, is the ardaas you mention also in the link of Dal Singh because I can't seem to find it.

Am not fluent in writing Punjabi, sorry.

Dal Singh, that doesnt make sense, how can a warcry become a greeting. We need to research this.

Amardeep, don't Janamsakhis say 'Kartar Kartar - Sat Kartar'?

I read in some Goras account that when the Singhs say the gurfateh they don't fold their hands.

Nirnibhau

Talley (more of Doabi, still Punjabi)

Niggar (not offensive)

I see. Thanks.

Any idea when the usage of Sikh greeting Sat Kartar- Kartar Kartar was ''discarded''.

And how people started saying Sat sri akaal instead of Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh?

Will check it in 2 weeks.

Thanks.

Yes I am aware of Khanda vs other symbols of Nishan Sahib, but I was wondering wheter Guru Nanak really had a Ik Oankar nishaan?

Is there historical reference for any of the jaikaras?

Meaning that they took money from people - like kidnappers 'extort' money from rich people.

Yes I have heard about Guru Hargobinds size of army.

2200 is what people say traditionally, no idea where that is written though. Suraj Prakash maybe?

I heard Suraj Prakash has a whole chapter dealing with the Sikhs training during 6th Gurus times, can anyone tell which one?

I have heard Jaikara has been part of Sikhi since the 6th Gurus battles. Is there any historical source for this or just oral traditions?

I have also heard that the Nishan of Guru Nanak Sahib was a flag with Ik Oankar on it, can anyone confirm?

You mean last part of 7th Gurus life? Then yeah, much possible.

I see. The 9th Guru only fought battle(s) in his teenage years, lateron all he did was bhagti (for more about 20 years). Guru ji probably did lots of Bhagti. Just see the Bairaag in the Saloks of 9th Patshah.

Yea.

Guru Har Rai was guru from 1644 to 1661 - about 17 years. Guru Sahib always kept mounted 2200 soldiers.

So I don't think all of them suddenly were told to 'find another job' once Guru Harkrishan became Guru. So most probably atleast some of the original force + additional forces were kept. Maybe the few 'smaller groups of personal guards' as you put it, and not the hundreds of mounted soldiers ready for any skirmish with the Moghuls during 6th and 7th gurus time.

However Amardeep makes sense about 9th Guru having no soldiers - since they would have killed Shihan when Guru Tegh Bahadur sahib was fired upon in Amritsar Sahib + attacking Mughal posts in 1675 (after martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur).

Dal Singh, you didn't tell which contemponary sources portrat Guru Tegh Bahadurs military 'appearence'? (apart one painting).

Amardeep veer, could you tell the main points of the last 25 pages. The works of courts she uses etc.

Would be much appreciated.

Nobody knows wheter the 8th and 9t Gurus kept soldiers? I have read that the 9th Guru had a  strong army, something I doubt. But I think the 8th and 9th Gurus did keep some soldiers with them, just need a confirmation from some historical source.

I see. Others than that, any historical proof?

And did 8th and 9th Guru keep armies or not? What do historical Granths say?

If you don't mind, how does that Sabad indicate of Guru Arjan Sahib keeping an army?

Would be really nice if Dal Singh could look up this reference.

Gurinder Singh Mann seems to believe that Guru Arjan started the practice of keeping a small army due to his interpreation of some of Guru Arjans shabads..

Could you state some of the Sabads and also what GS Mann said specifically. Thanks.

Just a pedantic point: It was Tyaag Mal, not Tegh Mal.

Also, we should note how contemporary/near contemporary representations seem to portray nauvay padshah in a regal cum military light, whereas today, Sobha Singh's representation along lines of piety have come to dominate our imagination of the Guru.

My mistake. It is indeed Tyag Mal.

Can you give reference to contemponary or near contemponary accounts of Guru Tegh Bahadur's life?

Hanji veerji, Guru Tegh Bahadur faught in the battles when they werent Guru. They fought as Sahibzada Tegh Mal (lateron Tegh Bahadur due to their bravery at the age of 14 in Kartarpur Sahib battle)

But what I am asking is if Guru Tegh Bahadur, WHEN BECOMING GURU or till 1675, keep an army like the 6th and 7th Guru or not?

And did Guru Harkrishan Sahib keep an army too?

Basically, did Gurus keep an army between 1661 and 1675? (8th & 9th Guru times)

What do historical sources say?

We all know the 6th, 7th and 10th Guru kept Fauj.

But what happened to the 2200 mounted soldiers of Guru Har Rai during 8th Gurus time?

The 9th Guru fought a few battles (where the Guru gained the title of 'Bahadur'), so it is really possible that Guru Tegh Bahadur kept an army too.

Can someone share any valuable info on the Fauj during 8th and 9th Gurus times?