SikhKhoj

People who believe in Dasam Granth invent all kind of fairy tales to justify Dasam Granth;

1) Oh but this Granth is for the Khalsa while GGS is for humanity

If DG is intended for the Khalsa, why doesn't it mention the word Khalsa even once?

2) Oh the internal evidence says someone called Shyam wrote a huge part... That means Guru Ji used that as pen name

If that is true then why do historical sources say that Shyam was a court poet and not a pen name?

3) Charitars were written to control Kaam

So Sikhs fell prey to kaam from 1469 to 1696? GGS was not enough to give them guidance?

It is always like that. When I give no source, you guys are so adamant and make the point 'why did no one question DG for 200 years'. Now I've already given one source with two statements:

1) Shyam was a court poet. Not a pen name of Guru Ji.

2) He is named amongst the authors who wrote compositions like the Charitropakhyan and Chaubis Avtar.

3) Besides the above external historical reference we find countless references to Shyam himself in the Dasam Granth:

ਸੁ ਕਬਿ ਸਯਾਮਿ ਤਾਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਚੌਦਸਵੋ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥੪॥
The poet Shyam knows him as fourteenth incarnation.4.
(Chaubis Avtar)

Please note how the reference to Shyam occurs in Chaubis Avtar for example and the historical text also says Shyam was (amongst others) wrote the Chaubis Avtar and Charitropakhyan.

4) You guys are saying that there is only 1 source saying Charitars were by the court poets, but I challenge you: find me even one source saying 5 Banis Nitnem from 1700-1800. You want me to believe Chaupai is Bani without A SINGLE source but ignore my source, shame on you. Cognitive dissonance at its best.

First decide Ragmaala, is DG by Guru or by court poets? You're so confused.

A comparison. Dally, does this make sense?

CHAPTER 1

Let the person who seeks deliverance hear [what follows J. Sri Akal Purakh
has commanded that the person who seeks release should rise for those
most tranquil of hours, [the three hours which constitute] the last watch
of the night. Having arisen he should bathe with cold water. Ifhe should
find cold water disagreeable to his body let him warm the water before
pouring it on his head and washing with it. If the water is not fresh, it
should [always] be warmed before being used. If for any reason this
cannot be done, or if [ sufficient] water is not available, or if there is any
reason why the body [should not be bathed], then wash only the mouth,
hands, feet, and lower portion of the legs. Then recite the divine Name,
'The holy Name, the holy.'
When doing so, hold the hands in fi-ont of the face [with palms respectfully
joined]. Having repeated the divine Name seven times, cleanse your
entire body, from head to toe, with appropriate gestures, [washing it
with the divine Name] as one would bathe it with water. Then shall
your body be purified. This method, however, should be used only if
water is not available or if the body cannot tolerate it. Perform this bodily
discipline during the tranquil hours of the last watch of the night. Recite
Japuji and Jaap five times [each], and likewise Anand. If there should
happen to be any purpose relating to your ordinary evelyday life which
you wish to achieve, recite [the couplet] from Arati which refers to the
lotus-feet [of Sri Akal Purakh] and touch the ground with your forehead.
Having thus prostratcd yourself, stand up and repeat Ardas8 Mter
completing Ardas, [you will find that] the objective which you wished
to achieve will be completely fulfilled, regardless of how difficult or simple
it may have beeu. If [on the other hand] you are thoroughly at ease and
have no such purposes to pursue, then read from the Pothi Granth [a
selection of! the bii~' delivered for our instruction by the Gurus, from
the first Master to the ninth. [Having done this] recite the lotus-feet
[couplet] from Aratl and touch the ground with your forehead. Let your
humble petition be:
'Grant to me, a [miserable] renegade, the blessing of the divine Name,
That effortlessly, with every breath, I may recall the Guru.'
Having offered this petition and attained peace of mind, arise and proceed
to [the day's] labours. But keep the beloved words of the Guru (bii~'
shabad) ever with you. The Word is the Guru, [your] intelligence (surali)
its disciple. Recite it with undivided devotion. 2.
The second precept oj the Rahit
[The Guru] commands: If it is [already] the second watch of the day
[when you awake] wash your hands, feet, and legs and recite Japu[jI]
and Jaap once each. Then proceed to your labours. Anyone who does
not know how to recite [these works] should first wash his hands
and feet, and then observe the following ritual. First he should call to
mind Sri Akal Purakh. Next he should repeat the divine Name. !fhe
requires no purification, he should silently recite the following seven
times from memory:
Sri Vahaguru Akal Purakhji, I cast myself on Thy protection.
1 O[ankar]. There is one Supreme Being, the Eternal Reality, the Creator,
without fear and devoid of enmity, immortal, never incarnated, self-existent,
known by grace through the Guru. 1
No visible sign, neither caste nor lineage; no colour to describe, neither features
nor attire. You are the Eternal One, self-enlightened, and ofinfinite power. Immortal
One above all others, Monarch of all and Ruler of the three worlds; Eternal Creator,
supreme over all beings, demon, human, and divine; your nature affirmed by the
mantle of the forest, your infinity proclaimed by eVCIY blade of grass. Who can
recount your names, Eternal One? Your deeds alone reveal you to the wise. 2
Recite this. It confers the same merit as a complete recitation ofJapu[jI]
andJip. If you have any essential purpose [to be fulfilled] and [byway of
offering your petition] can recite no more than this let it suffice. For it
to be effective, however, it is essential that it be recited in accordance with
the ritual here specified. A thousand other things can be neglected [but
not this]. 3.
The third precept of the Rahit
An hour before the close of day, recite the Sodar Rahiriis. At its conclusion
repeat Japu[jI] and Jaap, and touch the ground with your forehead. Then
offer any petitions [which you may wish to make, and conclude by] saying:
I am a transgressor, [all] glory is yours.
Do with me as seems good to you.
Your disposing is joy to me; let your divine Name dwell in my consciousness.
On your protection I cast myself 3.
The fourth precept of the Rahit
[The fourth precept] is as follows. When night comes and all worldly
activity has been put aside turn to reciting compositions (bat:ti) by the
Gurus, [recite works by all] the Masters, from the first to the tenth[
Guru Gobind Singh's] Bachittar Natak and works from the [Adi] Granth
by the other Masters. Sing kirtan. If drowsiness overtakes you, recite
Kiratan Sohila, meditate on Yah Guru, and sleep. Breathe viih from your
navel as you inhale andgurt1 as you exhale. [Thus you shall continue to]
repeat 'Vah Guru' and your deep consciousness (surati) shall remain
ever awake. Review the day's deeds as you [drift into] sleep. Do not let
your mind wander to other things. The person who discharges this
precept, whether man or woman, shall achieve deliverance and shall
know the joy of [belonging] to the Panth of Sri Guru Akal Purakh.

CHAPTER 6

He who is a Sikh of Sri Akal Purakh's Khalsa should arise during
that fragrant early-morning hour, which is the last watch of the
night. L
First proceed to the open fields and, having there performed your
daily bowel motion wash your anus with water and blow [on it] hard
from above [to dly it], How should it be washed? It should be washed
as one would wash a piece of soft leather. Having clone S0, thrust your
finger in [the soil] seven times, 2,
When you urinate wash your penis also, Then rub your hand in earth
and wash it three times, Next wash [yourlegs] from knees to feet, Thus
it should be done, 3,
Next use a [frayed] stick [to clean your teeth], Wash out your mouth
and repeat the Guru's name. 4.
Then bathe, [ensuring that] your hair is washed in clean water, W"sh
in water [equivalent in volume to] the contents of seven small water pots,
each holding seven seers, 1 5, .
Then repeat the Gur-mantra2 and recite portions from the sacred
scripture (shabad bal,l'!). 6.
At the beginning of the first watch of the day, perform kirtan. Intone
one or two shabads from the Granth (granth pothi) as the Guru directs.
[Finally], read the blessed Arati and proceed with your daily labour. 7.
[At midday], after two watches of the day have elapsed, wash your
hands, mouth, feet, and legs up to the knees, and recite the Sodar Rahiras.
In the evening, repeat the Gur-mantra. 8.
At night recite shabads and sing kirtan. 9. When the need to sleep grows
strong recite the Kirtan Sohila and retire. As you drop off to sleep fix your
mind on Sri Vahiguru Akal Purakh. 10.1

Besides the inconsistencies and slightly differing banis (particularly no DG in Nitnem of Chapter 6) it is interesting to observe why the author would mention about ishnaan in detail twice and again write about the nitnem? Perhaps the chapter 1 being independent is a possibility. Chap 1 has a similar language though but seems to be more of a 'complete rehatnama' (albeit less detailed than the prem sumarg) in itself

Guru did not say that.

Approved and worship is not same

couldn't help but lol

Just wondering if the manuscripts tally with the currently published Vaaran.

Thanks for admitting that Guru Gobind Singh did not write Charitropakhyan.

Why beat around the bush and start crying about Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem dependency on DG? We are already discussing that fact in another topic.
This is a reply to the people who claim that DG controversy is new and Puratan Sikhs always accepted DG as Guru Krit.

The 1776 source proves that already in the 18th century, parts if not the whole of Dasam Granth was attributed to court poets and not Guru Ji.

Besides that the internal proof of Raam and Shyam writing DG is corroborated by this source which confirms the existence of a poet called Shyam in the court of Guru Ji.

This is an important though:

Mcleod has a strong opinion that the first chapter might have been appended later to the Prem Sumarag, a view I share because several manuscripts with only 1 Chapter of Prem Sumarag exist. Besides that the Nitnem is repeated once in Chapter 1 and then in Chapter 6, the Nitnem in Chapter 6 does not specify which bani to do in morning but it says 'read from the Granth Pothi (SGGS)'. Therefore the main Prem Sumarag text does not mention the DG as much, the Bachitar Natak evening Nitnem is only there in Chapter 1 and not Chapter 6.

Why would the Rehat author write about Nitnem in detail in chap 1 (from ishnaan to banis) and again nitnem details (somewhat different to the one in chap 1, but again from ishnaan to banis) in chapter 6? For me it is even more interesting because Chapter 1 says to read Bachitar Natak while the 6th chapter only tells you to read from the Granth Pothi (GGS).

What Miri aspects are there during Guru Amar Das and Guru Ram Daas time?

I have read that Sikhs complained about oppressive Muslims during Guru Amar Das times and the Guru told them to keep forgiving them and living like that, tolerating it till the end i.e. no resistance. This seem in stark contrast to Guru Nanak and Guru Angad (and ofcourse the latter Gurus) and therefore I do not believe in this Sakhi (which I read in some recent book).

The argument that Raam or Shyam is a pen name of Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj will be rebutted with more sources in the coming time. I am awaiting for pro Dasam Granthis to come up with some history rather than emotional drama about 'moral lessons' and other fancy things these people invent out of nowhere. If Guru Gobind Singh diverted from the tradition to use Nanak, it would have been mentioned. The Guru taking up pen name Shyam or Raam must be somewhere in history, starting in 1696 to the early 1800s... after which the Dasam Granth was shoved in our panth on major scale by altering the Nitnem and Amrit Sanchaar to accommodate Dasam Granth into it.

I am beginning my rebuttal to the Charitropakhyan being authored by Guru Gobind Singh from a historical perspective. Anyone with historical proofs (1695-1825 AD) saying (1) Guru Gobind Singh wrote Charitropakhyan (2) used the pen names Kab Shyam and Kab Raam is invited to the topic.

Can we talk facts please instead of 'have you read' 'give the translation' etc? I can't type out the whole Sakhi so I have summarized it above with the heading of the Sakhi, relevant page number and so on. (I have the whole Sakhi/granth and wrote the above myself so don't even know why you're asking that)

Not that I know of. You read it in some book or saw it in some near contemporary painting? But it is possible given the (5th), 6th, 9th and 10th Gurus did.

The author(s) of the Charitars and 24 Avtar – a historical perspective

By: Gurdaat Khoji

'Mahima Parkash' which was completed in 1776 A.D.[1] by Sarup Das Bhalla, a descendant of Guru Amar Das, gives us some invaluable proof regarding the authorship of a major part of the present day Dasam Granth: the Charitropakhyan & the Chaubis Avtaar.

The interesting Sakhi in question comes in the Mehima Parkash under the heading: “ਆਗੈ  ਸਾਖੀ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਜੀ  ਨੇ  ਬੇਦ  ਬਿਦਯਾ  ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸ਼  ਕਰਣ  ਕੀ  ਅਰੁ  ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ  ਨਾਟਕ  ਕੀ  ਬਾਨੀ  ਕੀ  ਸੰਗਿਆ  ਕੀ  ਨਿਰੂਪਨ ਹੋਇ  ਗੀ”[2].

The author starts by mentioning the fact that religious scriptures (Purans) were assembled and Pandits were called from Benaras. Stanza 5 tells us that Gurmukhi scribes were ordered to collaborate with the Pandits. Amongst the poets who came to the Gurus court were Nanua Bairagi, Shyam Kab, Brahm Bhaat,  Nihchal Fakeer and many more (6^th stanza in the Sakhi). This is the evidence from the 18^th century that talks about a physical person Shyam, who was a Poet and came to the Guru’s court. Compare this to the assertation that Poet Shyam was a pen name of Guru Gobind Singh, which is not supported by historical sources. The text goes on further and says in the 8^th stanza that these poets wrote the Chaubis Avtar and Charitropakhyan. The Guru was pleased when he heard these and later on in stanza 12 it says that the Pandits were sent back home with various gifts.

Here you go

Besides Guru Hargobind Ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji who killed lions on their own, our beloved Guru Ke Singh like Bhai Roshan Singh and Gen Hari Singh Nalwa (bare handed) too killed lions single handedly.

1. Sikh Kalals were not huge in number even in the 1800s. According to a British census they accounted for less than half a percent of the Sikh population, which is insignificant.

2. The absence of any prominent Kalal Sikhs from 1469-1708 shows that the caste was underrepresented amongst Sikhs and, keeping the 1881 census in view too, did not have much converts to Sikhi.

3. The fact that Jassa Singh himself was from a Hindu background should also be taken in the above context (i.e. not Sikhs since generations like the others).

4. The passage I am referring to is the following:

Whenever this is necessary, let it be done as follows: Khatri can marry
Brahman. Arora can marry Khatri. Suniar can marry Arora. Sud can
marry Arora. Kamboh can marry Kaith. Kamboh can marry Suniar. Jat
can marry Kamboh. Chhimba, Dhobi, and Kamboh can intermarry
Kalals can also intermarry with any of this latter group.

5. Lets see some of the other groups mentioned regarding SIKH marriage Rehat:

Khatri: Gurus were from Khatri background
Brahmin: Bhatts from this background, Chibbers, Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Piraga etc
Jat: do I even need to explain?
and so on, each caste mentioned is prominent because many famous Sikhs were related to it OR they constituted a major part of our qaum, but the same cannot be said for Kalals; there is no prominent Sikh Kalal pre Jassa Singh nor were they numerically significant (even till 1881 or now for that matter) to even be mentioned amongst the various groups of Sikh intermarriages.

6. Name me any prominent Kalal Sikh prior to Jassa Singh ?

There is a difference between written by Guru Gobind Singh and approved by Guru Gobind Singh. In case I refer to Charitropakhyan as court poetry it does not close the possibility that it might have been approved by the Guru?

Historical proof from the 18th century.

I'll be typing it out and posting it soon.

Thanks, haven't read it in detail so didn't notice that. Good one.

1) Have you proven that Sau Sakhi is not from the 18th century? The 1734 date might not be right,  but to say it is not from the 18th century altogether is wrong. The Sau Sakhi was heavily used by Kavi Santokh Singh during the first half of the 19th century, the Mukatnama was completely copied and just corrupted to add Dasam Granth in Nitnem. Therefore dating the Sau Sakhi to 18th century is not illogical. The Sau Sakhi with Mukatnama must have already been written, circulated and considered worthy to be copied in a epic like the Suraj Parkash, which Kavi Santokh Singh started writing around the 1820s perhaps.
Besides that, internal evidence says around 1734 so 1734 might be true, with many latter additions of course. Some Sakhis have been added by latter scribes, the current printed manuscript is by Mathura Das and he added some sakhis of his own as is evident from the text (Sakhi 17), Narain Das (Sakhi 100) but on other places it places itself in Guru Darbar:

sahib singh pad sarn tuh, likhai likhari granth
...
rahai hajur dasve guru, karai ukat ju vaak
gur ratan mal pothi likho, jion gur kino vaak

In any case, I am always wary of such internal evidence not only with your but also my sources. But I can not accept that Sau Sakhi is an 19th century writing, nor have you provided a single proof for it being possibly written after 1800.

2) Provide arguments that Gurbilas Patshahi 10 is not from 1751? Keep them short and concise. Early dating of Gurbilas should be good for you as it has lots of DG influences in terms of language.

3) Rehatnama Chaupa Singh's oldest copy is from 1765 why do you forget that? It says only 5 times Japji in morning. You keep ignoring that source.

4) It is rather stupid to ignore 4 sources: 1719 (Naseehatnama) and 1765 (Rehatnama Chaupa) manuscript saying Japji for morning. With one more dated to the 1700-1800 (Sau Sakhi) and Gurbilas Patshahi 10 that has been accepted to be a 1751 writing.

5) Show me a single source saying 5 Banis nitnem for morning from 1700 - 1800 ?